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Kenshi
8th February 2001, 22:24
Please forgive me if this has been answered before but I am new to this forum. Has anyone heard of the North American Bladesman Association (NABA) and Mr. Russel McCartney? a friend of mine has asked me if the NABA is "The Only" sanctioned sword organization in North America and I could not answer his question for him. He also stated that 'Ishi Yama Ryu' (I thinks that's right? Forgive me if I'm wrong..) is a Japanese sword style. Again, I had never heard of such a style but I have been wrong before. If so, is Mr McCartney the legitmate "SOKE" of a traditional Japanese sword style here in the United states? Does everyone in the sword community recognize him as such? If so, are there any other legitimate Soke of Japanese Koryu here in the USA? Thank you for your attention and reponses.

socho
9th February 2001, 02:39
Sanctioned by whom? And for what? There are at least three or four actions underway to form affiliations of sword schools in the US, usually of different schools within the same style. I believe NABA is trying to be a 'blanket' organization, providing tournament sponsorship and other services. It is pretty new. Ishi Yama Ryu is gendai, not koryu. It and and NABA have websites you can check for information, plus there are some students here on e-budo that can probably answer some questions.

There are many schools in the US with links to and membership in recognized Japanese federations. Many others with no formal affiliations. Some are run by Japanese who have settled in the US, others by Americans who have trained extensively in Japan and maintain those ties. Some of the senior students from these have begun teaching, but still maintain the ties. There are at least three, probably more, Japanese sensei who have settled in the US and formed their own styles. More schools are starting to splinter off from them. I know of at least two US instructors who have formed their own styles based on not a great deal of experience, another who 'learned' by watching and reading, and formed a 'Japanese' style without any formal training. Caveat emptor. You might ask some questions over on the bad budo forum.

Ok, adding to my post here. I did not mean to imply that IYR and/or NABA is 'bad budo', nor is a 'blanket' organization for sword groups in the US necessarily a bad thing. I have been to one tai kai that was partially sponsored by them, enjoyed it greatly. Have not seen their own tournaments, although I am interested in the judging standards used, if anyone would care to talk about them.

[Edited by socho on 02-09-2001 at 10:10 PM]

ghp
9th February 2001, 03:13
Hello Ken.


NABA is "The Only" sanctioned sword organization in North America

There are many legitimate schools of established Japanese swordsmanship that are represented in the US. Your friend should be told that there is no "THE ONLY" sanctioned sword organization in North America -- there are many. Just to name a scant few that I know of (off the top of my head) with affiliations to Japanese parent organizations:

Dr. Karl Friday (University of Georgia) is the US rep of Kashima Shinryu.

Dr. Stephen Fabian (Hanover College, IN) teaches Toyama Ryu and is the US rep for Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu.

Meik Skoss (Berkely Hgts, NJ) has lots of influence/experience with traditional martial arts -- he's well placed in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Meik is licensed in Toda-ha Buko Ryu naginata (amongst other accomplishments).

Guy Power (San Jose, CA). US rep for Nakamura Ryu and the International Battodo Federation.

Peer Halperin (San Diego, CA) teaches Nakamura Ryu under the aegis of the International Battodo Federation.

Carl McClafferty (Del Rio, TX) is the US rep for Shin Shin Seikiguchi Ryu; he also teaches Toyama Ryu. Carl has a close association with a well-known koryu teacher in Japan, but he doesn't represent that style.

Bob Elder (Orlando, FL) teaches Toyama Ryu and is the US rep (I think) for the All Japan Toyama Ryu Iaido Federation; if he's not the rep, he is certainly closely affiliated. Bob is also affiliated with the All Japan Battodo Federation.

Nick Suino (Lansing, MI) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

John Ray (Denton, TX) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Masayuki Shimabukuro (San Diego, CA) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Rick Polland (Sverna Park, MD) teaches Muso Shinden Ryu.

The people listed above have strong ties to Japan -- they have either lived in Japan for many years, have brought their teachers to the US on teaching tours, have spent a lot of time visiting Japan over the years, or all the above.


He also stated that 'Ishi Yama Ryu' ... is a Japanese sword style. Again, I had never heard of such a style but I have been wrong before.

Ishi Yama Ryu cannot be judged a Japanese ryuha -- it is an eclectic system compiled in the US by an American.


If so, is Mr McCartney the legitmate "SOKE" of a traditional Japanese sword style here in the United states?

I don't think Mr. McCartney thinks of himself as a "soke" -- certainly anyone associated with traditional Japanese swordsmanship would not think of him as such. Perhaps your friend heard that Mr. McCartney established his own school and thought Mr. McCartney was therefore a "soke."


are there any other legitimate Soke of Japanese Koryu here in the USA?

Koryu? No. Gendai budo? Don Angier; is is the one exception to the rule, that I know of. There was a koryu jujutsu soke who left Japan and emigrated to some country in Scandinavia (forgot his name)-- but that's a different story that could be told by someone more knowledgeable than I.

Regards,
Guy

Neil Yamamoto
9th February 2001, 06:13
Actually, the Ishiyama ryu website refers to Russell McCartney as soke. The link to this is here;

http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/default.htm

This names him as soke of the ryu.

Ishiyama ryu was formulated by Russell McCartney. It is not of Japanese origin. Some of his students are here on e-budo and sword forum and can answer your questions far better than I.

The sensei Guy refers to in a Scandinavian country is Takamura sensei, Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu.

http://www.shinyokai.com

Toby Threadgill is the N. American representative of the ryu. See also Aikido Journal in back issues for an interview with Takamura Sensei. It may also still be up on the aikido journal site.

As to official sanction of anything, given the number of organizations that all give official sanction, it has become meaningless to say 'officially sanctioned' in my opinion. What does this really mean?

If a group is legitimate, it really means nothing more then you know the right people in an organization who approve of what you are doing since it meets the standard of what they expect to represent the group. If the group is worth of trust and respect, that is up to each individual to decide.

If they happen to be frauds then officially sanctioned means "We put this together to make some money off people."

If you want to know more, then meet and talk to the people involved in the group. if you like them, trust them, and you have done your homework on their backgrounds - They should be able to show their sensei's names, where they trained, etc, then go with it.

If you don't trust them, cover your back pocket and run before your wallet is gone.

Tim Wilmot
9th February 2001, 19:56
Good Morning,

I would like to clear up a couple of things about the NABA,
if I may:

The NABA is designed to promote a set of standard rules and
judging criteria within the sword community. As stated in the paragraph below. The NABA is non-ryu specific. People
like the style that they study because it provides them with
something they need. The NABA realizes and appreciates this
fact. For more information on McCarteny Sensei please take
a look at his bio on the Ishi Yama Ryu web-site.

The North American Blademen Association is a nonprofit
organization designed to provide complete safety and
tournament guidelines for sanctioned sword tournament
activities. NABA has been recognized as THE sanctioning body for the development of organized National sword tournament activity with its regulations accepted, approved, and backed by the largest mainstream sports insurance company in America. Its one million dollar insurance guarantees formatting and performance standards for tournament and dojo activity specifically for sword arts and blade instrument use. This is a coverage never before available to the martial arts community and is provided via your paid membership in the NABA.


I hope this helps clarify your questoins. If you have any other questions please feel free to contact me.

Take Care,

Tim Wilmot
Ishi Yama Ryu

Kenshi
9th February 2001, 22:20
Thank you gentlemen,

You have answered all of my questions and even though you were "ever so diplomatic" in giving the facts I think we all get the picture. I have made a few other inquiries as well regarding the NABA and Mr. McCartney (No comment). But, when Mr. Wilmot stated that the NABA was..

Quote: "...THE sanctioning body for the development of organized National sword tournament activity with its regulations accepted, approved, and backed by the largest mainstream sports insurance company in America. Its one million dollar insurance guarantees formatting and performance standards for tournament and dojo activity specifically for sword arts and blade instrument use. This is a coverage never before available to the martial arts community and is provided via your paid membership in the NABA."

...I was quite concerned (as we all should be!). So I started to contact several other organizations and that statement seems to be quite misleading. I contacted the AAU organization and they said that they had complete coverage for their athletes, coaches, volunteers and officials as well as medical expenses, personal and advertising injury, Products/Completed Operations Aggregate and commercial General Liability under both their AAU Tae Kwon Do, AAU Karate and AAU Iaido programs. The AAU representative told me they use what is known as the 'AB' Insurance plan administered by American Speciallty Insurance Services, Inc. You can see their coverage plan discription at:

http://www.aausports.org/content/org/AAU/forms/sports_insurance_summary.pdf

You will need acrobat reader to view it.

The AAU representative also said that this insurance has been in force for AAU Martial arts programs for "Many,many years".

If anyone has information on other non-profit organizations that sponsor such programs for their members I would be most interested in such information. I believe that Mr. Wilmott may have shed light on a subject that is rarely discussed in a forum such as this.

I think I have sufficient information at this time to inform my friend that his impression of the NABA and Mr. McCartney were based on false information. Also, I think I now know how and why he was misinformed. I don't think promoting yourself as "THE" anything is a very prudent way to win friends or influence people. That statement is usually a dead give away that something smells fishy.
As suggested, perhaps we should move this topic to the Bad Budo Forum after all.



[Edited by Kenshi on 02-09-2001 at 04:47 PM]

KarlNygard
10th February 2001, 00:32
I believe that the idea of the NABA is to provide a level playing field for sword tournament activities.

Your original quote, which you seem to imply comes from the NABA, but it did not come from the NABA, but your "friend", stated:
"a friend of mine has asked me if the NABA is "The Only" sanctioned sword organization in North America"

No where on the NABA site that I can find does it claim to be, however, the NABA site does claim:
"NABA has been recognized as THE sanctioning body for the development of organized National sword tournament activity."

There is a huge difference between a sword organization and a body trying to nationally organize sword tournament activity. Also the NABA has been recognized as the sanctioning body for sword by a large sports insurance company. That does not imply that the entire sword community has done so, nor has the NABA claimed so.

That quote may be out of date a bit now, because the AAU which you refer to, has only added Iaido as an event very recently, IAIDO or any other sharp bladed event has not been covered for "many, many years". Iaido is not even listed as a sport on their website neither alone nor as part of any of the other MAs (karate, chinese, or TKD). http://www.aausports.org/mytp/nationalorgs/AAUindex.jsp?cindex=-1

On the AAU karate website, there is an open letter dated 25 Jan 2001 part of which states: "I welcome all of you to our AAU Iaido program. We are counting on your support in order to assure the success of this new AAU sport." http://www.datasync.com/~aauma/aaukarate/news.html Again, that doesn't sound like many, many years if it is new.

You should also notice that if you do not do iaido, but one of the many other japanese sword arts, you may as well not compete becuase the kata and cutting are judged according to iaido kata and ideals. The NABA is style agnostic.

You seem to be taking what your "friend" said as representing a what number of people and organizations have stated. If you have issues with any of the people or arganizations, perhaps you should simply state your opinions or questions and not try and cloak your rumors and gosip as coming from a "friend".

This is all in my opinion alone and not to be construed as representing anyone other than myself.

Kenshi
10th February 2001, 02:08
Thank you Mr. Nygard for pointing out my faus pas.

I can see where someone might think that my question inferred that the NABA said "The ONLY", and not someone else. That is what I thought I remembered him saying of course he may have phrased it "THE" or possibly some other way. But he did imply exclusivity in the conversation. AND it was not the NABA or MR. McCartney who said it. So if there was any confusion about that I humbly apologize.I also would like to apologize for reiterating the BAD BUDO statement at the end of the post. I should have known better and should be spanked soundly for it. I am SORRY...

I am not the one who attacked the NABA or Mr. McCartney. But I assume you are condemning me rather than the gentlemen whose comments I THINK are leading and implying something else. Yes, I certainly read between the lines of what the other esteemed gentlemen were posting. Perhaps I should not have done that. I am not as esteemed or nearly as popular as them and an easy target for those who want to lash out at the answers that have been given. But, I humbly apologize on my behalf for whatever embarassment this may have caused.

Actually, I would still like to know if there are any other organizations out there that offer insurance for Sword programs. I would someday like to have my own dojo and liability is a major issue. That is actually what my original conversation was about when the NABA topic came up. Then the conversation migrated to Who, What, When and where as such conversations normally do. It was not rumor or gossip but rather a free exchange of what we felt was pertinent information to the conversation. So perhaps it would have been more appropriate for me to have asked the original question as "What sword organization offers it's members an insurance program?" And then some representative of your or some other organization could have come back with the "THE sanctioned" response. That one still seems like a very arrogant statement to me. But it was not you MR. Nygard that stated it and I am not condemning you as such. Once again I humbly apologize for any confusion in my original statement but I will not apologize for statements made by these other distinguished gentlemen, as they are entitled to their opinions. Thank you.

Nathan Scott
10th February 2001, 03:00
Hello all,

I actually was a part of a small team that was researching the possibility of hosting a large Shinkendo Gasshuku here in LA a couple of years ago.

In regards to insurance, the prospective locations all required a minimum of a one million dollar insurance policy, which were possible through the folloing agencies:


*Markel Insurance:
http://www.martialartsinsurance.com/index.html



*American Jujitsu Institute, Honolulu HI



*F.L. Dean and Associates.
min of $450/year or $8.95/student for $1M liability plus misc other coverage ..medical etc and this includes the staff and instructors. Their phone is: 800-745-2409



*MIC Insurance Brokerage
552 S. Washington, Suite 111
Naperville, IL 60540
Phone: 630-428-4062 or Fax: 630-428-4072
Contact: Bill Flinker 1-888-293-5001 x248



*AAU (Amateur Athletics Union) - popular with Judo/Jujutsu groups Based out of Florida? $14 a year for the coach and children and $25 a year for adults, accident benifits and one million dollar liablity. Plus all you have to do is register in one sport and you are insured to compete in all AAU sports and it even covers you when competing in non AAU tournments.



These companies all do (or did) accept all kinds of martial art group needs, from large events to inter-organizational policies (insurance for each dojo).

These kinds of events are lots of fun. Glad we opted to have it elsewhere!


HTH,

Kenshi
10th February 2001, 03:32
Mr. Scott,

Thank you very much. This is information that I think will be beneficial to all. Did you ever have any dealings with these insurance agencies? Do you know anyone who has? Regardless, I wish to thank you for your kind information. It would appear as though most facilities require the sponsor to be insured and that there be a rider providing the facility to be covered as well. Has anyone else had difficulty getting a sword event covered by insurance or do you have any horror stories about facilities not granting the venue due to lack of insurance coverage? Or do you just wing it and hope for the best. BTW, I'm guessing that that is the norm. Consider it a question from someone that would like to keep their home after Joe Blow hacks off his fingers trying to impress the judges.

WillG
10th February 2001, 14:56
We are currently insured through Markel Insurance. I am not overly insurance literate, but they were quite clear that they cover the dojo even during the use of swords. Standard $1 million liability, plus medical, accident, etc; don't have the policy in front of me. We are primarily an aikido dojo, but several of our members comprise a Toyama -ryu Study group under Bob Elder Sensei.

I believe Event Coverage is an extra according to our policy. We pay $800/ year for the basic policy. It's my impression that insurance companies that offer Martial Arts coverage are becoming increasingly receptive to sword arts due to the growth in popularity. It wasn't too long ago that I was unable to find that kind of coverage at all. That's when we were winging it, but we weren't doing tameshigiri then.

Will Graves
Aikido of Pittsburgh

FastEd
10th February 2001, 18:34
Originally posted by ghp
Hello Ken.

[quote] Just to name a scant few that I know of (off the top of my head) with affiliations to Japanese parent organizations:

Dr. Karl Friday (University of Georgia) is the US rep of Kashima Shinryu.

Dr. Stephen Fabian (Hanover College, IN) teaches Toyama Ryu and is the US rep for Hontai Yoshin Ryu jujutsu.

Meik Skoss (Berkely Hgts, NJ) has lots of influence/experience with traditional martial arts -- he's well placed in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Meik is licensed in Toda-ha Buko Ryu naginata (amongst other accomplishments).

Guy Power (San Jose, CA). US rep for Nakamura Ryu and the International Battodo Federation.

Peer Halperin (San Diego, CA) teaches Nakamura Ryu under the aegis of the International Battodo Federation.

Carl McClafferty (Del Rio, TX) is the US rep for Shin Shin Seikiguchi Ryu; he also teaches Toyama Ryu. Carl has a close association with a well-known koryu teacher in Japan, but he doesn't represent that style.

Bob Elder (Orlando, FL) teaches Toyama Ryu and is the US rep (I think) for the All Japan Toyama Ryu Iaido Federation; if he's not the rep, he is certainly closely affiliated. Bob is also affiliated with the All Japan Battodo Federation.

Nick Suino (Lansing, MI) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

John Ray (Denton, TX) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Masayuki Shimabukuro (San Diego, CA) teaches Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu.

Rick Polland (Sverna Park, MD) teaches Muso Shinden Ryu.


With regards to organizations...

You should also include all the clubs recognized under the national representive bodies of the (IKF) International Kendo Federation, and the International Iaido Federation in that list, should you not? (some of the individual schools you ment are in fact affiliated I believe)

They are far and away, the oldest, largest and most internationally active associations for Japanese sword on the planet.

[Edited by FastEd on 02-10-2001 at 01:30 PM]

arioch
10th February 2001, 22:53
As someone who has actually taken the time to read BOTH the NABA and AAU websites, I'm not exactly sure how this thread spiralled into the mess that it became - it is only a tiny bit harder to check out the actual details than it is to present personal opinion as fact in a public forum.

The very first paragraph of the NABA website states the following:

The North American Blademen Association is a nonprofit organization designed to provide complete safety and tournament guidelines for sanctioned sword tournament activities.

Further into the site you come across this:

The greatest virtue of the NABA is its nonpolitical agenda. It is simply a sanctioning body which helps to unite practitioners for group activity for this art in its various forms and techniques.

Taken out of context I can see how somebody might misinterpret the following paragraph (also found on the NABA site):

NABA has been recognized as THE sanctioning body for the development of organized National sword tournament activity with its regulations accepted, approved, and backed by the largest mainstream sports insurance company in America.

However, unless I am mistaken, there is no other completely style agnostic sword event sanctioning body that provides $1 million of insurance to it's members. The AAU, which has only recently included Iaido in its activities - under the blanket of Karate - is still style specific, and has yet to hold its first actual sword event (taken directly from the AAU website rules for Iaido):

The prescribed Shitei kata are taken from the National AAU Seitei Iai kata. Judging criteria is set forth according to AAU National Committee regulations and guidlines.

Ippon Me - Mae
Nihon Me - Ushiro
Sanbon ME - Ukenagashi
Yonhon Me - Tsuka Ate
Gohon ME - Kesa Giri
Roppon Me - Morotetsuki
Nanahon Me - Sanpo Giri
Hachihon Me - Ganmenate
Kyuhon Me - Soetetsuki
Juhon Me - Shihogiri

The NABA is not focused, and does not promote the advancement of the IYR dojo - even though both were founded by the same person. If you've ever attended one of the NABA events, you may have noticed that judging has been performed by members of the MA community not even involved with sword, as well as sword practioners of several different styles - looking for fundamental aspects innate to every sword form, like safety, composure and reishiki, instead of Ryu specific details. This allows all of us to compete on a level playing field, instead of falling prey to form specific judging.

Rob Lowry

FastEd
11th February 2001, 04:55
Originally posted by arioch

However, unless I am mistaken, there is no other completely style agnostic sword event sanctioning body that provides $1 million of insurance to it's members.


(sigh) THE KENDO FEDERATION



The prescribed Shitei kata are taken from the National AAU Seitei Iai kata. Judging criteria is set forth according to AAU National Committee regulations and guidlines.

Ippon Me - Mae
Nihon Me - Ushiro
Sanbon ME - Ukenagashi
Yonhon Me - Tsuka Ate
Gohon ME - Kesa Giri
Roppon Me - Morotetsuki
Nanahon Me - Sanpo Giri
Hachihon Me - Ganmenate
Kyuhon Me - Soetetsuki
Juhon Me - Shihogiri
Rob Lowry [/B]

This is NOT...National AAU Seitei Iai kata...this is KENDO FEDERATION Seitei Iai Kata, which the AAU has decided to use! Do not confuse the two.

arioch
11th February 2001, 20:28
Ed - I agree with you about the issue of "actual ownership" of the kata being used by the AAU, all I did was copy the text directly from the AAU website - instead of implying what was on the website like others had been doing.

However, about the ryu agnostic statement - I should've put form aganostic...my mistake (glad I'm not a proffessional write - I'd be starving most of the time).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I attend a PNKF event in my local area I must use one of the prescribed kata - regardless of what actual Ryu / Form / System I study?

I understand, and fully agree with the desire to level the playing field when it comes to judging sword tournaments...however, like every one we all have our own opinions on how that should be done. I personally think (and I want to stress the word "personally") that prescribing a set of kata to perform does this, but at the expense of individuality. We don't all study the same art, and there will never be a consensus on "what the best art is"...it will never happen.

At NABA events, you can do any kata you want, and the judges table does not look for specifics like "finger placement, degree of bend to the knee, is the noto "inside or outside the line of the body", is the weigt placement 50/50...) they look to "overall flow", bearing, sword control, projecting of one's spirit...things that are universally common to all sword arts. In all honesty, I can understand it if people don't think this is the best way of leveling the playing field - again, that opinion thing. However, you can not deny the fact that this method is form / style / ryu agnostic.

Rob Lowry

BTW - if you are "in the know" about the move to get ZNKR judging critea used by the AAU please e-mail me directly - I'm very interested in this.

FastEd
12th February 2001, 06:37
Originally posted by arioch


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I attend a PNKF event in my local area I must use one of the prescribed kata - regardless of what actual Ryu / Form / System I study?



I'm not shure about the PNKF, and I don't have the rules handy (I'll look them up) but from my limited experence I believe both the Seitei and Koryu are used in a tournament. The Seitei kata are pre-fixed while the koryu kata are open. So yes, you would have to do the Seitei, but there is room for the individual koryu.




However, you can not deny the fact that this method is form / style / ryu agnostic.



Your right, NABA is open to all.




BTW - if you are "in the know" about the move to get ZNKR judging critea used by the AAU please e-mail me directly - I'm very interested in this.



Sorry, but I'm as far from "in the know" as a person can get, I heard about the inclusion of Iai in the AAU from Iaido-L, then like you, searched their site.