Has anyone heard of this guy?

[m harper]

Just wondering if anyone knows this guy. He has a dojo on 1960 in Houston. Check out the link:

http://www.houstonselfdefenseco.com/ninjutsu.php

It says he is a Ninjutsu instructor but does not claim any rank in Bujinkan, Jinenkan, or Genbukan. It looks like he has created his own version of the art.

[BigJon]

Hi Mark!
http://www.houstonselfdefenseco.com/instructors.php


This journey started immediately after high school when he quickly discovered that this was not being taught at any local martial arts schools. So, he started researching. It wasn't long before Instructor Bodungen learned that proper self defense training includes preparing the body and the mind. As a result, he began studying the works, teachings, and philosophies of martial arts legend Bruce Lee, who had the same beliefs surrounding "finding the truth in self defense." Around this time, Bodungen also began studying Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninpo), which is a very old and complete fighting system where many other well known arts actually get their roots from.

[Baio]

"ka jumonji do" 火十道 people should learn japanese before they try to use japanese words. looks like a bunch of crap thrown together buj stuff with fake ninjer things(Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han and Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo)

[Jason Chambers]

I believe he also makes reference to training in Toshindo.

Why is this even important? I think enough has been done to educate those who are wishing to pursue the true art so that thye know the difference.

I believe the Ninpo Police disbanned about 9 years ago.

[m harper]

I believe the Ninpo Police disbanned about 9 years ago.


No way, who is going to protect the ninjas now:laugh:

Sorry I just read this under the ninjutsu page.


Our Ka Jumonji Do Tactical Ninjutsu program is based, primarily, on the ancient Ninjutsu ryu traditions and fighting systems such as taught in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninpo) and Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, as well as more modern Ninjutsu systems such as Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han and Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo. Such ryu included, but not limited to, are Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Koga ryu, and many others. However, It also takes influence from the principles, techniques, and tactics from several other Reality Based Martial Arts and Tactical Systems such as German Dominquez' Tactical Shokan Combatives, Criso Lopez' Spirit Tora Combatives, Stephen K. Hayes' To Shin Do, Filipino Kali, Indonesian Pencak Silat, William E. Fairbairn's & Eric Anthony Sykes' Defendu, and Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

[BigJon]

I believe the Ninpo Police disbanned about 9 years ago.

You ARE the ninpo police.


*Edit- meaning I thought you might be a policeman........that practices ninpo.

[John Anderson]

"ka jumonji do" 火十道 people should learn japanese before they try to use japanese words.
Sounds a bit KKK to me............

[Baio]

wow i didn't even notice that.

[Jason Chambers]

You ARE the ninpo police.


*Edit- meaning I thought you might be a policeman........that practices ninpo.

Oh yeah...

[m harper]

Not to be the ninpo police but if he claimes to teach from these schools is that not fraud?


Our Ka Jumonji Do Tactical Ninjutsu program is based, primarily, on the ancient Ninjutsu ryu traditions and fighting systems such as taught in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninpo) and Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, as well as more modern Ninjutsu systems such as Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han and Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo. Such ryu included, but not limited to, are Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Koga ryu, and many others. However, It also takes influence from the principles, techniques, and tactics from several other Reality Based Martial Arts and Tactical Systems such as German Dominquez' Tactical Shokan Combatives, Criso Lopez' Spirit Tora Combatives, Stephen K. Hayes' To Shin Do, Filipino Kali, Indonesian Pencak Silat, William E. Fairbairn's & Eric Anthony Sykes' Defendu, and Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.

[Baio]

apparently you can lie all you want when it comes to martial arts and the least that could be done against you is a student breaking out of a contract. i talked to a lawyer about this regarding chris jacobson of budo ryu, america sucks for these types of things

[Kevin Geaslin]

All I needed to see was Ka Jumonji Do Ninjutsu and Ghost Dog Apache Knife Fighting, Jeet Kune Do, MMA/BJJ, Boot Camp Training and Yoga, all mixed to "Let the bodies hit the floor". It's just another Houston martial arts grocery store.

[Prospero]

All I needed to see was Ka Jumonji Do Ninjutsu and Ghost Dog Apache Knife Fighting, Jeet Kune Do, MMA/BJJ, Boot Camp Training and Yoga, all mixed to "Let the bodies hit the floor". It's just another Houston martial arts grocery store.

Yes. Anyone who has that many arts on their resume has little chance of being good at any one. Some people train in arts to learn, some to add points to their resume. There are even folks I know who seem to visit Japan NOT to get the best instruction they can, only to merely say they trained in Japan.

Of course, in situations like this I always ask why they bother to call what they do ninjutsu. Not one of the "modern" ninjutsu schools I have seen actually are doing anything close to what I see in the Togakure ryu in terms of core aspects. At best, they try to copy Bujinkan stuff and don't realize that Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu techniques are not considered ninjutsu for a reason.

On on-line sessions I have asked a few folks why they call what they do ninjutsu and the usual answer is that it is done in the spirit of the ninja, they think it would be what the ninja would have done, etc. But their image of the ninja is based more on Hollywood than history.

Still, "fire cross" ninjutsu makes me wonder if he knew the images of KKK cross burnings that come to mind.

Edit- You might note that the left side of his page has taken the name of this dojo (http://www.budotaijutsu.co.uk/) to make it look more ninja like.

[cbodungen]

I was wondering how long it would take before the "Ninpo Police" would begin taking things out of context and start throwing stones. Since it has begun, please allow me to clear a few things up.

Yes, I carry a Shodan rank in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu but I do not claim that what I am teaching is traditional authentic ninjutsu. I list many Ninja Ryu to point out that what I teach comes more from the Ninja Ryu side of things instead of the Budo side like the 6 other Ryu from Bujinkan. A terrible marketing mistake and I will correct it. I also do not claim to teach the "grocery store list" as I am being accused of. I have a large school with plenty of space. Therefore, I have several instructors that specialize in each of these other arts. In my area, there happens to be a market for these arts so I provide them. Accuse me of having a "grocery store" of martial arts and any other traditional taboo you like... but my school is thriving and we are all happy. Yes, I have had a checkered martial arts past (I choose to call it diversified but whatever) with many disciplines but are you really going to sit there and call that a fault or pass judgment on that.

Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han and Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo are derivative branch-offs from Bujinkan created by our brethren in Spain. In fact, the Ninjutsu they practice is much closer to what you learn in Japan than most of what you see in America. The name "Ka Jumonji Do" was not my creation. This was given to me by my brethren in Spain due to my extensive use of the Jumonji no Kamae and the Ka no Kata like influence when fighting in more tactical based applications. I was honored. I wasn't surprised that American short sightedness would link it to something like "KKK." That is simple ignorance. The Kanji on the left side of my page was meant to be a place holder for something else and I simply forgot to change it. Thanks for reminding me.

Now, I do admit that some of the videos are horrible and cheesy and I intend to fix that. Sorry for putting you through that.

There have been many high ranking practitioners from the Bujinkan organization that have been to my dojo to see first hand what I do. So far they have all approved. Some have even joined with me in training.

There are so many people that sit here on forums and throw stones, call people liars, and bash their arts, etc. There is no honor in this. Why don't you make an effort to get out and get to know those people and see what they have to offer before falling into the petty politics. The bottom line is that while I'm not following tradition, my students and I enjoy what we study, my school is successful so far, and we are all enhancing our lives.

If you are going to continue to bash and call names (if that's what makes you feel better), I only request that at some point you actually come visit so you can actually see what it is that you are talking about.

[cbodungen]

If you are going to continue to bash and call names (if that's what makes you feel better), I only request that at some point you actually come visit so you can actually see what it is that you are talking about.

I also forgot to mention.. for those of you that don't have your own place to teach, or want to get out of the heat if you are training outside... I offer my dojo to you. I don't care about politics. If you need a place to teach, I have space for you, and we can find a time slot just as I have done for other instructors.

[Oniyama]

A couple of questions:


Yes, I carry a Shodan rank in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu...

From whom did you receive your shodan and when.


There have been many high ranking practitioners from the Bujinkan organization that have been to my dojo to see first hand what I do. So far they have all approved. Some have even joined with me in training.

Who are these "high ranking practitioners from the Bujinkan organization" of which you speak?

Additionally, on your web site you mention Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Koga ryu. From whom did you learn these schools?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Oniyama]

By the way Clint, unless I am desperately mistaken, the kanji should be:

火十文字道

And not:

火十道

When you put up a logo (placeholder or otherwise) without checking the kanji you present yourself in much the same light as those unfortunate individuals who get kanji tattoos without really knowing what the kanji says. When you put said logo up on the internet then the whole world sees it and gets the impression that you don't really understand what you are representing.

[cbodungen]

I appreciate your concern and inquiries. However, so that I do not bring the same ridicule upon my friends and instructors that has been bestowed upon me, I will not give their names. If they feel the need to support me, or if they are even aware of this thread, they may authorize me or even come forward themselves... But I will not ask them to. I mean no disrespect to you, sir, or the Bujinkan organization but I do not believe in the hierarchical politics, which is why I do not feel obligated or compelled to publicly justify my position any further than I already have. If you are simply curious as to whom I've trained under for reasons other than just an attempt to discredit me, I may entertain private messages or email. However, again, unless for whatever reason we will be training together, I do not feel compelled to disclose my supporters and subject them to public judgment based on my actions, that seem to be so "taboo" amongst the traditionalists.

(Ironically, wasn't it the people of Iga's desire to be different than the accepted tradition of the time that forced them into the "Ninja lifestyle" in the first place? Maybe it's the "Budo" influence that drives so much political disdain.) ;)

[cbodungen]

By the way Clint, unless I am desperately mistaken, the kanji should be:

火十文字道

And not:

火十道

When you put up a logo (placeholder or otherwise) without checking the kanji you present yourself in much the same light as those unfortunate individuals who get kanji tattoos without really knowing what the kanji says. When you put said logo up on the internet then the whole world sees it and gets the impression that you don't really understand what you are representing.

I do thank you for your assistance, and as I mentioned before, it was a stupid mistake. :( Hopefully not too costly, but hey... live and learn. ;)

As far as the Kanji goes. I admit I am not yet completely fluent in Japanese and especially not in the Kanji. The individual that presented me with the Kanji in question is, and I took in full faith that it would be correct. Until I have learned enough about kanji myself, that's all I can do. If I find out it is not then I will no doubt make adjustments.

But again, thank you.

[Oniyama]

Clint, I am assuming that you replied to the orignal post to legitimize yourself otherwise, if being seen as legitimate were not a concern, you would not have responded at all.

In looking at your profile on your web site you seem to me to be a man in his twenties or early thirties so I doubt you were old enough to fully experience the Ninja Boom of the 80's the way that may of us on this forum did. To give you perspective, this is the pattern that many of us that have been around for a while have seen:

1) Someone from out of the blue pops up claiming to be a Ninjutsu instructor.
2) They make claims that seem suspect if not down right outrageous; especially claiming to have been taught in certain schools.
3) When pressed about their training and asked for references, excuses are made instead of providing verification.
4) In some cases the individual in question has come up with their own school though they, in all reality, lack the age and experiece to reasonably do so.
5) Those certificates they do hold are either bogus or realitively easy to get by anyone.

Such People that come to mind are Chris Hunter (AKA Ashida Kim), Frank Dux, Ron Duncan, James Loreiga, Bryce Dallas and Christa Jacobson.

Now I don't know if this is necessarily the case with you but so far you are following the pattern.

I finding curious that you would not state who promoted you to shodan or who taught you the schools on which you claim to base your Ka Juumonji Do. For someone who has come here to defend their legitimacy, failing to provide such information does not help your case. Additionally to say that "There have been many high ranking practitioners from the Bujinkan organization that have been to my dojo to see first hand what I do. So far they have all approved." and then not be willing to state who those people are is some what problematic (and convenient). Surely if thay have offered up such endorsement they would not have any trouble being mentioned. They are big boys and girls and I am sure they can stand by any endorsement or approval they may have made (assuming they actually did so). Being evasive does not help you. In fact it makes you look fraudulent.

I hope that gives you some perspective as to why you are getting the reaction that you are. There are many astute and observant people on this forum, people who will dissect such curious things as this and eventually find the truth.

My suggestion to you would be to take this time now to clear anything from your web site and your promotional materials that is not absolutely, verifiably true; espeically in regards to the schools upon which you claim to base your system. I have not gone through all your certificates. They may be legitimate. However, I would suggest that you go through all those certificates with a discerning eye. There are a number of certificate mills and martial arts associations that will give anyone recognition for anything. Such things prey upon the ignorance of unsuspecting potential students.

Lastly, know this. There are a number of legitimate Bujinkan instructors in the greater Houston area. I suspect that most of them are distainful of any sort of fraudulent Ninjutsu instructors taking advantage of those who do not have the background to know better. It would serve you well to clear away anything that is questionable.

I hope this gives you better perspective on the matter.

[Prospero]

Clint,
You wrote,


I appreciate your concern and inquiries. However, so that I do not bring the same ridicule upon my friends and instructors that has been bestowed upon me, I will not give their names.

Maybe you might be more accepted if you listed who your teacher was and who gave you the shodan you claim in Bujinkan. It is a matter of manners for some of us to acknowledge those that helped get us where we are and the absence of an acknowledgement on your site send us a message that puts us on our guard. It is also very natural to suspect that you might not be honest about it if you are trying to hide who taught you.

[Oniyama]

Just for the record I deleted a post I made because I thought it was directed to me. After rereading it I saw that it was not. Therefore I deleted it. My apologies for any confusion.

[cbodungen]

Let me begin this reply by saying that I did not originally reply to this thread to “legitimize” myself so much as to respond to what I considered to be derogatory remarks. I continue to indulge in discussion because the most recent posters have been completely respectful and, in the end, I would like things to end well and to co-exist peacefully.

Again, the issue of not disclosing names. Of course you guys can list the names of your instructors openly and publically. You are apparently in good standing with your organization and not under scrutiny for doing something considered “taboo.” Furthermore, let me clarify that I am not outright refusing to provide names and/or credentials. I am refusing to do so publically here in this forum.

So many of the hard core traditionalists have had such a problem with me using the word “Ninjutsu” unless I’m teaching pure Bujinkan, or pure Genbukan, etc. In fact, all the different organizations even argue the legitimacy of the other. Such politics are the reason why I have kept such a loose affiliation with any of these organizations. These politics have caused so many traditionalists to look down upon me personally. For those of my friends and instructors that are in good standing with such organizations and can be hurt by these politics, I’m not going to risk tarnishing their reputation by throwing their names out in vain as a credential to save my “legitimacy” on a public forum. Some of you say this is rude or suspect. But there are those that also see the honor in this.

For those of you that have been around much longer than I and feel that you are upholding the integrity of a legacy and art, believe me when I say that I have the utmost respect for you. I have the utmost respect your organizations. In fact, I do still continue my studies in Bujinkan under more than one credible instructor (I know I know... you want to know who :p). However, I clearly admit here, and on my site (in fact I’m rather adamant about it), that I am not teaching Bujinkan or any other traditional Ninjutsu. Maybe I should make it a bit more clear. I do, however, say that is where I get my base from. If anyone comes to me wishing to study true and traditional Ninjutsu (and they have), I gladly refer them to any of my Bujinkan friends in the greater Houston area. There is a reason and a need for what I teach and why I teach it the way I do.

I’m not asking for the acceptance, approval, recognition, or endorsement from Bujinkan or any other organization. I am asking not to be slandered just because I don’t adhere to your traditional methods, and refuse to publicly risk tarnishing the reputation of those in my affiliation. If you have a definite need to see my lineage (like training with me, etc), or if my legitimacy is just that important to you personally, then talk to me in private, or come talk to me like these others have done, and I will be happy to discuss it with you outside of a public forum. There are those in the Houston area that have stopped by my dojo to do this very thing and we have had candid, pleasant, and constructive discussions. I would like for us all to co-exist peacefully in friendship and acceptance, but I feel that the only thing that will resolve this will be the public disclosure of my affiliates. That’s not going to happen until I’m no longer slandered for teaching a derivative of Ninjutsu that is anything other than a pure, traditional style. Until then, think what you want, attack me and say what you will. You’re not the first. :( Hopefully one day we can all get past this and none of the Ninjutsu organizations or derivatives will argue amongst each other.

(P.S. – You are right. The use of the term “high ranking” was off the mark and I had no idea it would cause so much uproar. From my perspective I would consider a Godan to be high ranking. I did not mean high ranking in terms of political affiliation within the organization. I should have chosen my terminology more carefully. My apologies.)

[Prospero]

Again, the issue of not disclosing names. Of course you guys can list the names of your instructors openly and publically. You are apparently in good standing with your organization and not under scrutiny for doing something considered “taboo.” Furthermore, let me clarify that I am not outright refusing to provide names and/or credentials. I am refusing to do so publically here in this forum.

Your argument is silly. Every time I have seen someone that has stained the honor of martial arts, I can't recall a single time when people blamed the instructor of that person if they were still not teaching them.

Seriously, your refusal to give even the name of your teacher really raises the chance that you can't give the name of him because he does not exist. Every student has a right to know if their teacher really has the qualifications he claims in public. They have a right to know they are not being lied to. I am sure you can say that you would tell someone who wanted to train with you, but unless you are just as public with your proof as with your claim, there is no reason to treat you as anything other than a BS artist.

If you don't want everyone here convinced that you are a BS artist, then your proof should be just as public as your claims.

There is also a very, very good chance that you are doing things using the same marketing tactics and methods that can be explained on ths site. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/MAbiz.htm#MAmarketing)

If you did take a video black belt course in Bujinkan, and/or other arts, then our opinions of you as a martial artist will not be the greatest, but by admitting it, you will prove you are not a liar. Then we have a difference of opinion over who is qualified to teach and create their own style of martial arts and not a suspicion of someone lying.

So far you have claimed to have a teacher and you have claimed that fifth dans from the Bujinkan have stopped by and approve of what you teach. These claims were made here in public, now it is your responsibility to prove those claims in the public. If you did not want to prove your public claims, you should not have made them in public.

[stauburn]

Doesn't the type of reaction seen here on the subject justify why Clint is following his own path?

I actually respect him a great deal for entering into the Ninja court of law to defend his position and is points of view. As a Bujinkan member I am getting very tired of this holier than though attitude that some of us in the Bujinkan have. I used to be the same way until I realized that no matter what my points of view are, who am I to disregard someone else's efforts to share something with others that they feel has value unless they are causing harm to someone.

Shouldn't we spend more time criticizing the people within our organization that can't even punch and uke properly?

I have met Clint, talked with him about his training, the Bujinkan and his school and he was kind enough to answer all my questions, concerns and invited to watch one of his classes. From what I saw and researched about him , he appears to be quite honest about what he claims and what he wants to teach.

So let us all continue our own training and discuss more important things that are effecting our lives these days.

[Prospero]

I have met Clint, talked with him about his training, the Bujinkan and his school and he was kind enough to answer all my questions, concerns and invited to watch one of his classes.

Great. Tell us who the teacher who taught him and gave him his shodan. If that person confirms the story we no longer have any suspicion that he may have been BSing us or learned from a video course.

We all have our own standards, it is only those that lie that we have common ground. If we have proof that there is no lie in what he says, then it is just a matter of opinion.

[Oniyama]

Hi Robert,

Yes, the Ninja Court of Law can be a monster unto itself and I can understand your sentiments.

However, for myself, I am tired of seeing good people being taken in by bogus instructors. Sure, once could say "caveat emptor" and lay the responsibility on the potential student to ferret out the good instructors from the bad, or at least the honest from the dishonest. The reality is that those who would be duped do not always have enough backgound to discern the legitimate from the fraudulent.

Now for someone who wishes to run a martial business, which is what Clint is doing, a reasonable amount of public disclosure is to be expected. Acknowledging one's instructors and from whom one received rank should not be a problem. For me when someone in Clint's positon is unwilling to provide such basic information, that is a big red flag.

What is also big red flag is that Clint is claiming to base his martial system on certain schools to which his access is questionable. To claim that the martial system that you teach is based on something to which you have no training is downright fraudulent. Sorry, but I have a problem with that.

I certainly respect Clint's right to pursue his own martial direction provided he is honest and upfront about it. It is his evasiveness in this forum when asked some rather basic questions that I find troubling.

I hope that clears up why I am making a point about this issue.

[darkthrez]

Hey Guys,
Ease up on Clint. I have know Clint for a little while and the doode is a cool guy. He may not do what we do, but then again who really does what we do correctly. I am still way off from where i want to be and am still learning. I recommend cutting down this thread before it gets any further.

[Oniyama]

Hey Guys,
Ease up on Clint. I have know Clint for a little while and the doode is a cool guy. He may not do what we do, but then again who really does what we do correctly. I am still way off from where i want to be and am still learning. I recommend cutting down this thread before it gets any further.

I don't think that the issue is that he is doing his own thing. That is not the problem. The issues at hand are that he is being evasive about his background and that he claims to base his martial system on some things that realistically he does not have the background for. Again, it is not about him doing his own thing.

[John Anderson]

The name "Ka Jumonji Do" was not my creation. This was given to me by my brethren in Spain due to my extensive use of the Jumonji no Kamae and the Ka no Kata like influence when fighting in more tactical based applications. I was honored. I wasn't surprised that American short sightedness would link it to something like "KKK." That is simple ignorance.
I was the person who made the 'KKK' quip and to be honest with you, if something is called 'the path of the burning cross', I think it's perfectly reasonable to think there may be some sort of allusion to the only organisation I know of that uses burning crosses. If you use a stupid name for obscure and silly reasons, you can't blame people for misinterpreting it.

You say that I'm an ignorant short-sighted American - I may be ignorant, that's a matter of opinion, but I'm not American as my location suggests - I think that you are being short sighted here!



[B]In fact, the Ninjutsu they practice is much closer to what you learn in Japan than most of what you see in America.
As you appear to duck any questions regarding your training, I'm not expecting an answer but I'll pose the question anyway - what is your experience of the 'Ninjutsu' that is taught in Japan that allows you to make such a claim?

[stauburn]

But has he not said that he would answers those questions privately?

I had the same concerns as all of you, but I took the time to approach him in an adult manner ,spoke with him face to face and not on a public forum. As I said before he answered all of my questions without hesitation and to my own satisfaction.

Whether he chooses to answer to you gentleman is his decision, I will respect him enough not to answer questions for him.

This will be the end of my posts on this subject. Because it the long run it doesn't really matter.

John( Oniyama) you know how to contact me if you have any further questions and I hope to see you again soon at another seminar in the near future

[Prospero]

But has he not said that he would answers those questions privately?

Public claims need to be answered in public as well. People like Ashida Kim have dodged questions about his teacher for decades by saying that he can't answer them in public. No one has been able to get him to answer them in private either.

I know of more than one case where a BS artist told someone in private who trained the BS artist and when the person actually checked with the supposed teacher and was told it was untrue, the BS artist then denied he had ever said any such thing and tried to attack the truth seeker.

By keeping it in public you avoid the whole "he said/he said" confusion and debate.

[Oniyama]

But has he not said that he would answers those questions privately?

Yes, he has. To that end, I have sent him a private message and I am currently awaiting his response.

From what I have seen I don't think that this is so much an issue of fraud as much as it is poorly thought out representation of himself, at least that is what I hope. We'll see.


John( Oniyama) you know how to contact me if you have any further questions and I hope to see you again soon at another seminar in the near future

Robert, I look forward to seeing you as well. It has been a while hasn't it. I hope you and yours are doing well. With any luck, once I finish this contract my time will free up to where I can come to Houston for a visit. Tell everyone I said hello.

[Oniyama]

For those who don't know, I am currently working in a network operations center on the graveyard shift and therefore
sometimes have free time to do research. I am still waiting to get from Mr. Bodungen his information on his Bujinkan and
other Ninjutsu background. So in the meantime, as I had time, I thought I would research Mr. Bodungen's credentials and look
at particular arts upon which he claims to have based his Ninjutsu system. If anyone has more to add, please do. For those about to read this you may want to grab a cup of coffee as this is a bit on the long side.


Credentials
Below is a quick overview of Mr. Bodungen's credentials and what I was able to find relatively quickly on Google.

- More than 16 years of martial arts experience
I don't know Mr. Bodungen's age but that is certainly within the realm of possibilities.


- 1st Degree Black Belt (Shodan) - Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninjutsu / Ninpo)
Currently unsubstantiated. Mr. Bodungen has stated that he will answer private inquiries about his instructor and
ranking. Such an inquiry has been made but there so far Mr. Bodungen has not yet provided said information. I will say
that his statement "I appreciate your concern and inquiries. However, so that I do not bring the same ridicule upon my
friends and instructors that has been bestowed upon me, I will not give their names " is very evasive and suspicious. I am
not sure I am buying that reasoning. On his web site he mentions that he has trained with Larry Speakman. He has been
asked who promoted him to Shodan but has not as of yet provided an answer. It is completely possible that he may have
briefly trained with Speakman but then continued his training through a video home study course as Donald Roley has
suggested. It is almost as if he is ashamed to admit from where his black belt came. Given the amount of name dropping he
has done on his web site, I am sure if he got it from an event reasonably known and respected Bujinkan instructor he would
have named that individual.


- 1st Degree Black Belt (Shodan) - Ka Jumonji Do Tactical Ninjutsu
As "Ka Jumonji Do" is Mr. Bodungen's creation he has effectively given this rank to himself. Now in most martial
arts a 1st degree black belt usually indicates that the individual has learned the basics of a system but is not a master.
This would seem to indicate that even though he is this systems creator, he only understands it basics. This is very odd
for the founder of a new martial art.


- Certified Edged Weapons Defensive Tactics Instructor - S.A.B.E.R. System
I did a search on Google for the S.A.B.E.R. System. According to one web site
(http://www.specialenforcement.us/saber.htm) "S.A.B.E.R. stands for Strategic Anti-Blade Engagement Response." What I have not been able to find is a governing body for this system. There are a small number of people who claim to be certified
in this system and even instructors in it but nothing that points back to an organization that created and maintains it.
If someone has better information, please provide it.


- Certified Level 3 Knife / Counter Knife Combatives Instructor - Hock Hochheim (SFC)
Hock Hochheim has an impressive biography (see: http://www.hockscqc.com/bio/index.htm ) Most of it is comprised of
his experience with military and law enforcement with some martial arts. There is nothing in his background that
immediately set of my "BS alarm". Mr. Hochheim offers a number of courses and various levels to those courses (including
instructor certifications). It looks like he has video home study courses for sale.


- Certified Apache Knife Apprentice Practitioner (Instructor Candidate) - Ghost Dog System
This one took some hunting down. This system was founded by Robert Redfeather. I could not find a governing body
for this organization. I did find a site www.apacheknife.com attributed to Redfeather but it is know down. This may be
due to the fact that Redfeather was arrested in 2007 on charges of kidnapping and rape and is doing time in Arkansas (see:
http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?topic=4013.0 ).


- Certified Military Combatives / Self Defense Professional Instructor - The Self Defense Company
The Self Defense Company (See: www.theselfdefenseco.com) appears to be a video home study course. They also appear
to be a martial arts school franchise (see: http://www.theselfdefenseco.com/martial_arts_mentor_program.asp).


- Certified Defensive Tactics Instructor - International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA)
- Certified Combat Martial Arts Instructor - International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA)
I found International Combatives Self Defense Association (iCSDA) at www.icsda.org. They also have their own home
study course (See: http://www.icsda.org/Homestudy.html ). There is even a degree program (see:
http://www.icsda.org/MISDS.html) where you can get your martial arts PhD for around $750.


- United States Air Force Veteran - Honorable Discharge
Again, certainly within the realm of possibilities. No reason to dispute this.

- Certified Personal Fitness Trainer
Certified through whom? There are various places on the internet where one can become certified for just about
anything. The name of the institution would be helpful.


- Licensed Private Investigator
Licensed through whom or through what agency? For reference here are some links related to being a private
investigator in Texas:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/psb/forms/forms/PSB-27-GeneralInstructionsforC-L.pdf
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/psb/


- Licensed Commissioned Security Officer
See above.


- Licensed Personal Protection Officer ("Bodyguard / Executive Protection Agent)
For reference, have a look at http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_you_need_a_license_to_be_a_bodyguard_in_Texas .



Ninjutsu
Below is a list of the Ninjutsu systems and school upon which Mr. Bodungen claims to have based his Ka Jumonji Do Ninjutsu.


Our Ka Jumonji Do Tactical Ninjutsu program is based, primarily, on the ancient Ninjutsu ryu traditions and
fighting systems such as taught in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninpo) and Genbukan Ninpo Bugei, as well as more modern Ninjutsu
systems such as Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han and Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo. Such ryu included, but not limited to, are Togakure
ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Koga ryu, and many others. However, It also takes
influence from the principles, techniques, and tactics from several other Reality Based Martial Arts and Tactical Systems
such as German Dominquez' Tactical Shokan Combatives, Criso Lopez' Spirit Tora Combatives, Stephen K. Hayes' To Shin Do,
Filipino Kali, Indonesian Pencak Silat, William E. Fairbairn's & Eric Anthony Sykes' Defendu, and Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do.


Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (Ninpo), Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and To Shin Do are all pretty well known. No need to explain them
here.

Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han
From: http://www.icsda.org/ICSDACombatives/temp_images/cursoicsda.pdf
Founder: German Dominguez
Bio: Mr. Dominguez is the founder of the Tactical Shokan Combatives system. Mr. Dominguez is a veteran of the
Spanish Armada. Mr. Dominguez has extensive training is Special Forces Combatives and Urban Combat Training.
Mr. Dominguez also has extensive Fire Arms & Melee weapons training. In addition to his military training
Mr. Dominguez is an exponent of the Japanese martial art of Ninjutsu, in which he holds a 4th degree black belt and
is the founder of the Ninjutsu Shokan Shinobi Han system. Mr. Dominguez is the Spanish National Director for the
International Combatives Self Defense Association.

It does not say through who Mr. Dominguez received his Yondan but the impression I get is that it was through someone other
than himself. Since the 80's there have been a number of people who have decided to create their own Ninjutsu system. Often these are people who have split off from the Bujinkan or similar organization. Often times such people mix in other arts to give what they do its own flavor. However, what they end up doing could hardly be called Ninjutsu. To base a new Ninjutsu system off one of these is problematic.

Mitsu Saku Han Ninpo
From: http://www.icsda.org/ICSDACombatives/temp_images/cursoicsda.pdf
Founder Criso Lopez
Mr. Lopez is a Security Specialist working with Psychiatric Care Units. Mr. Lopez has an extensive background
in Combat Martial Arts. Mr. Lopez began his training in western boxing and kickboxing in which he was
awarded a black belt. Mr. Lopez continued his studies I the Japanese Art of Ninjitsu. Currently Mr. Lopez holds
ranking in two systems of Ninjitsu and is the founder of the Mitsu Saku Has System of Ninpo and Sprit Tora
Combatives system. Mr. Lopez serves as Spanish Central Zone Director for the International Combatives Self
Defense Association.

It looks like they used to have a web site at www.ninpocrso.miarroba.com but is now dead.


Togakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu are commonly taught in the Bujinkan and it is reasonable the Mr.
Bodungen may have been exposed to those ryu. However, at only Shodan, having knowledge enough of the schools to then go
on and create a new martial are is questionable.

Gyokushin ryu and Kumogakure ryu are rarely taught and then only to well advanced practitioners. It is not reasonable that
Mr. Bodungen would have seen these ryu and certainly not to an extent upon which a new martial arts system could be based.


Koga ryu died out with Fujita Seiko in 1966. By all accounts he did not pass this school on to anyone else to teach.
There have been a number of people who have claimed to teach Koga ryu and to date none of them have been found to be
legitimate. Mr. Bodungen has been asked from who he learned Koga Ryu. At this time he has not provided an answer. there
is certainly a problem with him claiming to base his system on Koga ryu.


I hope this helps shed more light on the subject.

[cbodungen]

Ok, I have been very respectful about this entire matter. I respect the Bujinkan organization. I respect those NInjutsu practitioners that have dedicated considerable time to the art. I respect the beauty and history of the art.

I can take scrutiny and certainly appreciate the nature of it when trying to protect the integrity of your art and organization. But to those handful of you that start throwing around terms like fraud and doing everything in your power to discredit my entire background and what I do just because it doesn’t fit into the doctrine of you “private club”, this is where I draw the line. And this is why:

Let me tell you something about “fraud.” You see, for me, the people I train with, and the people I train, this is not a hobby, and we don’t train part time. For many of us, we rely on unarmed combat skills for much of what we do in real life. We are military, police, executive security, “bounty hunters”, overseas security, etc. We regularly find ourselves in harm’s way. Although we respect the art, and respect the people that train in and for the art… the art is not what will keep our asses alive. There are classical practitioners out there that are awesome and could destroy just about any would be attacker. But it takes a long time to get there and those individuals are few and far between. There are also people in this world that have a need for life and death skills here and now, and a different approach is needed (some of those people are in your organization. But, they “get it.” You don’t. Argue all you want about the effectiveness of classical training… all you will prove is that your knowledge is limited to concepts and no real world experience).

For those “holier than thou” in question, you can take all your classical doctrine and throw it out the window. I have people coming to me every day because in the line of duty, their classical training did jack squat and were nearly killed. Their 5th Dan, or 10th Dan, or umpteenth Dan was worth little more than a certificate on a wall. True Fraud in this industry is pretending to teach a real life, useful form of self defense when you have only conceptual knowledge in the form of a colored belt. What do you truly know about violent encounters?

You lecture me about what you have found on the internet. Wow you cyber sleuth, you. The fact that some of the people and programs I am associated with may have DVD courses associated with them tell you nothing substantial about me or my training. Show me an art or training program that doesn’t have some sort of DVD program associated with it now days. That says nothing. By the way, everyone knows damn well that the same discrepancies exist even in Japan in certain circles. Go kiss enough ass and pay enough money and you too can advance in rank despite the fact that your technique is a joke or that you spent an entire two weeks site seeing instead of attending training so that you could say that you were there.

For those in question, don’t lecture me about fraud because of the color of my “belt” or what certificates I do or do not have on the wall. I don’t do this for the “art” of it. You guys are a bunch of pencil pushing, desk jockey, hobbyists that puff out your chests at your “achievements.” Yes, to achieve a high level in such a beautiful art is a great achievement. However, you guys with your holier than thou attitude, scrutinizing something in which you are way off the mark on, need to keep in things in perspective. You are the equivalent of the Dungeons & Dragons geek that brags about being a level 60 wizard. Most of you have never been in a real fight much less a real life or death situation. These situations and those individuals that are confronted with them on a regular basis supersede any credentials or “art.”

Now, you geeks want to start scrutinizing Mr. Dominguez and Mr. Lopez as well? You are barking up a tree that you cyber nerds have no clue about. These gentlemen have seen more real life action than your entire family tree will ever dream of just as most of the individuals I am currently working with.
The bottom line is that you guys live a fantasy life and have no clue about the actual training that I do, the people that I train, and the reasons we train. Take all of your paid for credentials, your conceptual rankings, cyber sleuthing slander attempts, and continue to think that you are really somebody while you go play “Ninja.” In the meantime, I’m going to stop wasting my time with a bunch of hypocritical cyber jokes and go continue to actually help people. I’m sure you will continue to attempt to slander me while I am gone to make yourselves feel better about your great achievements and so you don’t look like so much of a jack ass. In fact, I am sure you will even delete this post to cover your ass. So be it. But I’m out of here for good. Have fun and go play.

(P.S. – I was just about to respond to your private message until you had to push it with this BS posting. And by the way, this was the nice version of my post because I am a much more of a respectful man in that I don’t feel the need to publically post what all I know about you to defend my position in such a useless and pointless argument.)

[Prospero]

In the meantime, I’m going to stop wasting my time with a bunch of hypocritical cyber jokes and go continue to actually help people. I’m sure you will continue to attempt to slander me while I am gone to make yourselves feel better about your great achievements and so you don’t look like so much of a jack ass. In fact, I am sure you will even delete this post to cover your ass. So be it. But I’m out of here for good. Have fun and go play.

(P.S. – I was just about to respond to your private message until you had to push it with this BS posting. And by the way, this was the nice version of my post because I am a much more of a respectful man in that I don’t feel the need to publically post what all I know about you to defend my position in such a useless and pointless argument.)

Weasel fart.

Here is what I mean.


In Japanese, the word for "parting shot/insult" is Itachi no pe and literally means weasel fart. It comes from an old belief that when a weasel gets over its head and flees it passes gas to get in the last insult.

The internet version is to insult the other person at the same time that you say you are not going to take part in any more discussion. There is usually an implication that if the other person responds to the insult, they are pushing the issue. The person doing the weasel fart wants to leave people with the last word with the last say on the matter at hand and tries to intimidate the other person into not responding any further. If they were honest about not wanting to argue, instead of throwing in any more comments or insults, they have the option of just not posting anymore.

So we know that whatever Clint acts like when things go his way and there is not much scrutiny, once simple questions like who gave him his shodan are asked he becomes a person I for one would not want to associate with. I have had some experience, hang out with some folks that have a hell of a lot of experience and at none of our gatherings does anyone try to impress anyone else just how macho they are like Clint just did.

All the evidence seems to point to Clint mainly learning from video tapes. Speakman is the closest guy I noticed named and he is two states away. At least two of the folks are in other countries. This type of thing is actually very common with people that want to build up their resumes.

Clint has just loudly announced that he will not be back. That is part of the weasel fart strategy. Almost all the times I recall it being used, the person using it actually does come back if the other side doesn't shut up as they planned. If so, then we know that Clint was just trying to get in the last insult. If he really does not care about what we think as he claims he will have no problem if we conclude and state that he has had little actual experience in a dojo under a teacher and is using things like home video study course to pad his resume.

[Oniyama]

Clint, yesterday I saw that you were on this forum for quite some time, certainly enough time to answer my questions privately but instead you sent me an "I'll get back to you later" e-mail. When someone is evasive it invites scrutiny. That is just human nature, the feeling being "where there is smoke, there is fire". Yes, I did go through your credentials and a list of the systems upon which you base this new form of Ninjutsu you have created. I did try to keep this post as neutral as I could though I will admit that in a few places I did make a few observations on some things that stood out to me, particularly where I have seen others who could be called into question follow the same pattern. In the places where appropriate I did point out what looked to be reasonable and realistic.

The best way to handle scrutiny is through full disclosure. If your position is legitimate then you have nothing to fear from scrutiny. Instead what you have done stomped off in a huff and still have done nothing to clear the air. You could have put the whole thing to rest instead you have weakened your case.

If the internet teaches us nothing it is this: Anything posted on the internet can never fully be taken back and that whatever we post we will have to give account. In short if you make claims, especially in public, you should be ready to stand by them. If you cannot stand by your claims don't make them. Thus far you have not been able to stand by the claims you have made here and on your web site. Come on, you created your own, brand new martial art and called it Ninjutsu. That just screams to be called out. Surely you must have realized when you did it that you would invite questions. Didn't you see this coming?

For the record, I have not to my recollection seen anyone try to discredit the combat validity or effectiveness of what you teach. Why you brought it up in your last post is something of a curiosity to me. What is also curious is that you claim that these older traditional forms of Ninjutsu are what you based your new martial art on but then you go on to blast those same forms in you last post. If you believe these older Ninjutsu schools are so combat ineffective why base your new martial art on them as you so claim on your web site?

The heart of the problem is that, whether you realize it or not, you are exhibiting the same patterns and behaviors that we have seen from dubious Ninjutsu instructors (examples: Chris Hunter AKA Ashida Kim, Bryce Dallas, Ron Duncan, Frank Dux and Christa Jacobson to name a few). Those of us that were around for the Ninja boom of the 80's saw a lot of good people scammed by fake Ninjutsu instructors and are particularly sensitive to it when we see it happening in our home town. Now you had the opportunity to set yourself apart from those questionable instructors by clearing the air via clarifying your claims. However, you have chosen not to do so. That is certainly your choice. I imagine that the reason you have been making posts on this thread was to defend your good name. I am sorry to say that you are yet to do that.

There is more I could say but I am long winded enough as it is. I will stop with this: Clint, I wish you no ill will in your endeavor to be a martial arts instructor and run a martial business. In fact I very much support your right to do so as long as you do it in an honest and forthright manner. I would caution you to really take care with the claims you make and think them through. If you make a claim be ready for it to be challenged. Creating your own martial art (and especially calling it Ninjutsu) is a controversial path. Expect to be strongly challenged and heavily scrutinized.

[Oniyama]

Clint, if you are claiming that you are not teaching the Bujinkan arts why did you register the domain name bujinkanhouston.com (See Below)?

The data contained in GoDaddy.com, Inc.'s WhoIs database,
while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is"
with no guarantee or warranties regarding its accuracy. This
information is provided for the sole purpose of assisting you
in obtaining information about domain name registration records.
Any use of this data for any other purpose is expressly forbidden without the prior written
permission of GoDaddy.com, Inc. By submitting an inquiry,
you agree to these terms of usage and limitations of warranty. In particular,
you agree not to use this data to allow, enable, or otherwise make possible,
dissemination or collection of this data, in part or in its entirety, for any
purpose, such as the transmission of unsolicited advertising and
and solicitations of any kind, including spam. You further agree
not to use this data to enable high volume, automated or robotic electronic
processes designed to collect or compile this data for any purpose,
including mining this data for your own personal or commercial purposes.

Please note: the registrant of the domain name is specified
in the "registrant" field. In most cases, GoDaddy.com, Inc.
is not the registrant of domain names listed in this database.


Registrant:
Clint Bodungen

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: BUJINKANHOUSTON.COM

Domain servers in listed order:
NS53.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS54.DOMAINCONTROL.COM


For complete domain details go to:
http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx?domain=BUJINKANHOUSTON.COM

[Prospero]

Clint, if you are claiming that you are not teaching the Bujinkan arts why did you register the domain name bujinkanhouston.com (See Below)?

If that is correct, and it is obvious that it is, then it is obviously a matter of concern to Bujinkan members that someone who refuses to prove that he has even a shodan would want to represent the Bujinkan.

[Baio]

i guess no one understands legitimacy and effectiveness are two separate things. if i opened up a clinic treating patients and writing out prescriptions with no training i'm still not a doctor even if what i do does help people. i'm surprised this guy didn't use the normal fake ninjer attack of "well you don't know togakure ryu is legitimate either" that we hear from koka ryu guys everyday

[Prospero]

i guess no one understands legitimacy and effectiveness are two separate things.

I think I know the point you are getting at, that he claims to be effective and he says we should trust him about it even thought he has given us no reason to trust him about something as easy to prove as who gave him his shodan. Still, it may not be as clear as you need to be on an internet forum. We get all types here.

Clint says he has a shodan from a real teacher in the Bujinkan. But I see no reason to trust his word based on what I see.

Clint also says his stuff is effective and has helped people. Again, I see no reason he should be trusted anymore about this that with his Shodan claims.

If he came clean about his Bujinkan shodan claims, then it would be much easier to trust that his skills are close to what he says they are. As is is, for all we know he may be no more skilled than Pee Wee Herman would be against Bruce Lee.

[ElfTengu]

I can't sit back and let Pee Herman be abused, I mean, the guy has kyojitsu like no one!

Seriously though, in terms of the Bujinkan, shodan is like kindergartern, a long way from having graduated high school, college/university and far from having qualified as a teacher in any of those institutions.

Bruce Lee is an interesting character to cite as an example, because he created his own system, and although he achieved no great rank in many of the arts he drew inspiration from, nobody doubts his prowess in Wing Chun, having studied directly under a grandmaster of the art, and we are not talking about seminars or being crammed into a Hombu dojo with dozens of other wannabees.

So you have to have a serious and certifiable grounding in at least one authentic art before inventing your own, and even then you will find that most high level practitioners, Bujinkan or Wing Chun, have no interest in making their own name because their love for the art is greater than their self-love.

Not to take anything from Bruce Lee, just pointing out that there is only one Bruce Lee, out of thousands and thousands of individuals who have sought to create their own style, and for some reason very few of them spring to mind, and the few that do are very good at what they do and also had decent credentials long before they did their own thing.

I guess that one difference between JKD and BBT is the willingness to realise in the event of another composite art gaining promininence (MMA) is that we may find ourselves wanting in some areas of fighting, and the JKD crowd appear to be more willing to recognise and adapt to this whereas most of us stick our heads in the sand.

As a Bujinkan shodan, and as one who took many many years of dabbling in many arts including this one, to finally settle on BBT as my primary art, I wouldn't mind a training group of my own at some point, but only to practice and improve my own skills more regularly than I can in one weekly lesson with my teacher as I live many miles in the opposite direction of the dojo from any of my buyu. I wouldn't mind even sharing such a training group with someone else of similar rank as I have no desire to be known as instructor, teacher, or dare to presume that I will be any better a martial artist than the people who might join such a training group, in fact my desire for them will be that they do far better than I did in the same amount of time!

Don't get me wrong, there are many over-inflated egos within the Bujinkan, but I really don't get the 'doing my own thing' syndrome and openly disapprove of several highly respected people who have done so, let alone people with a shodan or less in one established art and a collection of questionable credentials in TaeKwonlinedo-type 'fighting arts'.

You might be superb at what you do, but like Bruce, you will probably die long before you are recognised as such, especially if you do not have a movie career and celebrity exposure to 'spread the word'.

[stauburn]

I think this topic has been beat to death and should be closed because there is nothing of value being offered.

The bottom line is he is free to do whatever he likes, but I am very satisified that he his not teaching the " Bujinkan" and as someone that lives in Houston, teaches and trains in Houston and has talked with him personally which none of you have.

As a result our conversations prior to this fiasco , I believe he has made some adjustments to some parts of his website. So there was no need for all of this finger pointing , just a simple adult conversation between 2 men with a love for the martial arts and a respect for one anothers points of view.

I will agree that we as martial artists we feel responsible for our art but there is a point where we start losing credibility/respect with the bitching and nit picking.

How many times have heard from people in our art including Sensei to stop wasting time on the internet and train?

Nuff said.....

[ElfTengu]

I think this topic has been beat to death and should be closed because there is nothing of value being offered.

But it continues to be offered Robert, and as long as it continues to offend me I will continue to respond.


The bottom line is he is free to do whatever he likes, but I am very satisified that he his not teaching the " Bujinkan" and as someone that lives in Houston, teaches and trains in Houston and has talked with him personally which none of you have.

The bottom line with most Bujinkan (and Genbukan/Jinenkan) people is that they don't like unqualified people claiming to teach ANY of OUR material, except within the confines of a genuine dojo under the auspices of a genuine Shihan, Shidoshi or authorised Shibu-cho/instructor. As long as he has stopped claiming to do so then I have nothing more to say on the matter.


As a result our conversations prior to this fiasco , I believe he has made some adjustments to some parts of his website. So there was no need for all of this finger pointing , just a simple adult conversation between 2 men with a love for the martial arts and a respect for one anothers points of view.

I have a love for Cambodian civet cats but if I meet someone who claims to be one then I will find it difficult to respect their point of view. There is real and there is fake, there is genuine achievement and there is a premature sense of mastery, there is being a fan and there is being a true student.


I will agree that we as martial artists we feel responsible for our art but there is a point where we start losing credibility/respect with the bitching and nit picking.

I train hard weekly with genuine Bujinkan shihan and shidoshi, I don't pretend to be anything I'm not, and I have no delusions about being a ninja or ninjutsu expert, I'm just a humble student of the Bujinkan with no plans to mix what I have learned with a hotchpotch of other stuff in which I hold no rank and then create my own 'style'. How could I possibly lose respect within my own peer group, which is what this forum basically is. I don't think there is any nitpicking here, just statements of what is right and wrong. Anything outside the X-kans isn't ninjutsu (and not much of what is 'inside' the X-kans is ninjutsu) so anyone outside the X-kans is on a hiding to nothing.

Yes people can do whatever they want, we live in free countries thankfully, but I don't have to like it.


How many times have heard from people in our art including Sensei to stop wasting time on the internet and train?

Nuff said.....

We all appear to have wasted equivalent amounts of time on this thread, but if people keep saying things I disagree with then I am unlikely to concur with a verdict of 'Nuff said'. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

[Prospero]

The bottom line is he is free to do whatever he likes, but I am very satisified that he his not teaching the " Bujinkan" and as someone that lives in Houston, teaches and trains in Houston and has talked with him personally which none of you have.

Hi,
I can understand that you consider him a friend and have a natural desire to defend your friends. However I would just ask you to consider the words of comedian Dave Barry when he said that if someone is nice to you and nasty to the waiter, he is not a nice person.

I look at Clint's last post here and based on that it does not look like he is a person worthy of being a teacher or a friend. Some people are very good when things go their own way and certain topics are not pushed, but show their real colors once that surface is scratched. Folks that are good to the core, instead of just being friendly on the surface, tend to react a lot better and more forthcoming when question in my experienced.

I have been in a few situations where I have come to the aid of a friend, only to come to the conclusion that they are not as good a person as I had thought. We want to believe in our friends and that sometimes blinds us to their true nature. Please keep that in mind when you deal with folks like Clint in the future. I can hardly blame you for things I have done, and might be doing, myself. It is damn hard to wake up to the realization that your friend is not really a good person and we tend to try to avoid it in our minds.

Take care.

[jhf2]

Right, besides the point of legitimacy.

Never mind schools, styles and effectiveness of what he teaches. Looking at the pics in his website what people seem to do is some kick-box in protective gear, judo throws and I guess BJJ to finish off. Most of these people are women (which suggest some crash self-defense course) and except a few most guys look rather unfit.

Now, I had also trained with people claiming all kinds of MA background and in the end ended up doing just that Kick-box, judo/wrestling and BJJ. Of courdse show some jiu-jitsu locks, some fancy stances (e.g., from ninjutsu) with weapons and to the common person it looks great stuff.

To me the people he his training seem good people, and I bet they are to him too! Now, if he is not being honest with good unsuspecting people that put trust in him he can not be such a nice guy.

[Kagemaru]

:smilejapa
Clint, I am assuming that you replied to the orignal post to legitimize yourself otherwise, if being seen as legitimate were not a concern, you would not have responded at all.

In looking at your profile on your web site you seem to me to be a man in his twenties or early thirties so I doubt you were old enough to fully experience the Ninja Boom of the 80's the way that may of us on this forum did. To give you perspective, this is the pattern that many of us that have been around for a while have seen:

1) Someone from out of the blue pops up claiming to be a Ninjutsu instructor.
2) They make claims that seem suspect if not down right outrageous; especially claiming to have been taught in certain schools.
3) When pressed about their training and asked for references, excuses are made instead of providing verification.
4) In some cases the individual in question has come up with their own school though they, in all reality, lack the age and experiece to reasonably do so.
5) Those certificates they do hold are either bogus or realitively easy to get by anyone.

Such People that come to mind are Chris Hunter (AKA Ashida Kim), Frank Dux, Ron Duncan, James Loreiga, Bryce Dallas and Christa Jacobson.

Now I don't know if this is necessarily the case with you but so far you are following the pattern.

I finding curious that you would not state who promoted you to shodan or who taught you the schools on which you claim to base your Ka Juumonji Do. For someone who has come here to defend their legitimacy, failing to provide such information does not help your case. Additionally to say that "There have been many high ranking practitioners from the Bujinkan organization that have been to my dojo to see first hand what I do. So far they have all approved." and then not be willing to state who those people are is some what problematic (and convenient). Surely if thay have offered up such endorsement they would not have any trouble being mentioned. They are big boys and girls and I am sure they can stand by any endorsement or approval they may have made (assuming they actually did so). Being evasive does not help you. In fact it makes you look fraudulent.

I hope that gives you some perspective as to why you are getting the reaction that you are. There are many astute and observant people on this forum, people who will dissect such curious things as this and eventually find the truth.

My suggestion to you would be to take this time now to clear anything from your web site and your promotional materials that is not absolutely, verifiably true; espeically in regards to the schools upon which you claim to base your system. I have not gone through all your certificates. They may be legitimate. However, I would suggest that you go through all those certificates with a discerning eye. There are a number of certificate mills and martial arts associations that will give anyone recognition for anything. Such things prey upon the ignorance of unsuspecting potential students.

Lastly, know this. There are a number of legitimate Bujinkan instructors in the greater Houston area. I suspect that most of them are distainful of any sort of fraudulent Ninjutsu instructors taking advantage of those who do not have the background to know better. It would serve you well to clear away anything that is questionable.

I hope this gives you better perspective on the matter.

Not to stick my nose in this, but I would just like to say that in all honesty it is not fair to include these two instructors in your short list because they do not fall under the catagories you have provided. Although Duncan is considered the Father of American ninjutsu he has always stated publicly that his art is very different from the Ninjutsu traditionally practiced in Japan. That being said, he has been in the martial arts longer than many of you have been alive, much less practictioners, and is a very, very competant martial artist, and he deserves more respect than to be be relegated to being a fraud. What he teaches comes from self study, qualified instruction, and most of all combat experience. I wouldn't be so quick to discount it. I live and train in Japan as a member of the Kan and I can tell you that what he does and teaches would pass muster here, if not surpass some of the more "traditional" koryu systems I have seen here.

As you were.

:smilejapa

[Baio]

ron doncan is a fraud as much as ashida kim is, he has never trained in ninjutsu. duncan fits the bill of whats being talked about perfectly. popped up out of the blue claiming ninjutsu right around the ninja boom, surprisingly close to the time when he was not allowed to have the position he wanted in hakko ryu. duncan makes claims of having trained in many many many traditional japanese ryu including masaki ryu and tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu, wheres the proof of this, why didn't anyone in japan know this? how many times has duncan been asked to provide proof of his "koga ryu training" and how many times has he backed out on this forum alone. thats the first three points brought up, they fit duncan very well

[Kagemaru]

ron doncan is a fraud as much as ashida kim is, he has never trained in ninjutsu. duncan fits the bill of whats being talked about perfectly. popped up out of the blue claiming ninjutsu right around the ninja boom, surprisingly close to the time when he was not allowed to have the position he wanted in hakko ryu. duncan makes claims of having trained in many many many traditional japanese ryu including masaki ryu and tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu, wheres the proof of this, why didn't anyone in japan know this? how many times has duncan been asked to provide proof of his "koga ryu training" and how many times has he backed out on this forum alone. thats the first three points brought up, they fit duncan very well



Popped out of the blue? Can you please tell us when he started? Not talking about when he started martial arts training, which is public knowledge available on his website, but when he started actively teaching anything remotely related (actually, he called it Shinobi-no-jutsu then). Don't just say 'around the ninja boom'. Be specific.

About the various ryu-ha he claims to have studied, that is exactly all I have ever heard him claim. He never said he had Menkyo Kaiden in any one of them or that he was affiliated with any of the families in Japan. He said he studied them. Whether he learned from someone who may have learned from some who was connected to those ryu-ha, or whether he studied them conceptually and then then applied them in a workable combative concept, his approach has always been a practical one. It may be just a piece of the original, but from that a workable copy can be developed and eventually perfected.

Add to that the time and era that he came up in the martial arts, in which he was a military man, born in Panama not far from where the US Special Forces had their Jungle training camp for 'nam (that should give you a hint to how long he's been in the game), and him having participated in that war as an active operator in clandestine warfare (his military background is all easily verifiable), you can imagine that as a combatant you would have a mutual respect for your enemies tactics, if for no other reason than to overcome them in combat. So even though there were Westerners practicing martial arts those days, the relationship between Asians and Westerners were not as comfy as they are now. Back then we were still killing each other (WWII, Korea, the 'Nam, etc), so it wasn't like Asian masters were giving up any Menkyo Kaiden to any foreigners, and I can't see too many soldiers prostrating to a Japanese master at that time in the manor befitting! To say there were ideological differences would be an understatement, so of course people just took what they could and developed it as best they could, and some quite skillfully so.

This should not be so difficult to understand. It goes on all the time in life. For example, here in Japan they play a type of nine ball I have never seen or heard of. And they got some strange rules. But even though billiards didn't originate in Japan, and even though they didn't learn how to play it as it was originally intended, they can still play some pretty mean stick:smilejapa!

[BigJon]

I live and train in Japan as a member of the Kan and I can tell you that what he does and teaches would pass muster here

Im sorry Tony, but I think you may be the only one who believes this, which is fine...:)

[Prospero]

Although Duncan is considered the Father of American ninjutsu he has always stated publicly that his art is very different from the Ninjutsu traditionally practiced in Japan.

I bought a lot of the magazines that came out in the early 80s and that is not the case. Ron Duncan claimed to have learned traditional ninjutsu. His story has changed from time to time on how he learned it. One ex- student of his says he was told that Duncan learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Donn Draeger who had learned it from Fujita Seiko. The thing is, Fujita said he was taking his art to the grave and there is no mention of Draeger ever claiming to have learned it, much less taught it. Oh, and the only time Draeger and Duncan were in the same time zone for more than a few days was before Draeger moved to Japan, not afterwards.

I have seen the tapes Duncan puts out and he is a mediocre martial artist at best.

[Kagemaru]

I bought a lot of the magazines that came out in the early 80s and that is not the case. Ron Duncan claimed to have learned traditional ninjutsu. His story has changed from time to time on how he learned it. One ex- student of his says he was told that Duncan learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Donn Draeger who had learned it from Fujita Seiko. The thing is, Fujita said he was taking his art to the grave and there is no mention of Draeger ever claiming to have learned it, much less taught it. Oh, and the only time Draeger and Duncan were in the same time zone for more than a few days was before Draeger moved to Japan, not afterwards.

I have seen the tapes Duncan puts out and he is a mediocre martial artist at best.

Yeah, I don't work for him and I am not his public spokesman. All I am saying is that it is not fair to compare him to people like Ashida Kim because technically he is more competant. That's it. I did hear him list Draeger as one of his teachers. The fact that Fujita did not list him as a student is, as I said, not surprising given the climate of the time. Remember Draeger was military. In anycase, he is calling what he does now American Koga Ryu Ninjutsu, of which he is the founder. He is not calling it Traditional Japanese Ninpo/Ninjutsu. So it is what it is. But in terms of real life experience he definately has the time in to create his own version of the art, and if his students find it effective (which his long record of service to military and law enforcement proves is true) then I think it is disrespectful for someone, anyone, who has just started training in the martial arts (within the last ten or fifteen years is, in my opinion, just starting) to call the man a fraud. Whether one agrees with his ninjutsu or his concepts is another matter entirely, and is an issues that has been beat to death and I am not here to beat that horse. But he is not a fraud as a martial artist, and doesn't deserve to be lumped in with people like Kim or Choson Ninja.

As for the tapes, tapes do not tell you anything. I have seen tapes of my teacher, but it doesn't compare to watching him in person. When watching an instructional video one might doubt the effectiveness of some of the techniques performed, but having Sensei do it to you is something else entirely, and is genius in it's simplicity. So watching a tape doesnt prove or disprove anything. I would value the opinion of someone who has actually participated in one of his seminars or took some of his classes.


Quote:
I live and train in Japan as a member of the Kan and I can tell you that what he does and teaches would pass muster here

Im sorry Tony, but I think you may be the only one who believes this, which is fine...

Hi Jon, and yes you may be right! :laugh: Don't get me wrong, I love where I am and what I am doing, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But the fact is that there are other dojos here that are teaching tradition ryu-ha that are so focused on preserving the traditon of their art that it becomes basically a museum piece, and is not very effective in todays world. Yet these schools are considered koryu. I would say that for those kinds of schools what Duncan teaches is alot more practical.

Our teacher has said that there are three kinds of Bujutsu. First is the mixed style of martial arts system, which includes many styles such as Judo, Aiki, Karate, Boxing, Kick Boxing, Wrestling, etc. Certain aspects of each style are selected to make a new system of fighting. These can be very effective for real case scenarios but lack the historical background (and often the spiritual heart) of a traditional martial art. Sometimes these systems are used by streetfighters or for sports tournaments.

The Second type of Bujutsu is the historical or traditional only style. In this group it does not matter whether a technique is effective and useful or not. The only thing that matters is replicating the techniques as closely as possible to the set patterns that have been handed down from generation to generation. These styles keep the tradition alive, but sometimes the techniques are not useful in real life, rather they are like museum pieces. Ryu-ha in this style of Bujutsu can be rare, and sometimes disappear completly, through lack of interest and difficulty in recruiting new people. Remember, most of the holders of traditional menkyo kaiden in these ryu ha do not have international students, and interest in these things among young Japanese is very low.

The third type is the traditional and variation style. This group keeps the traditional aspects alive, but always focuses on how to use these patterns in real situations. Training should be hard, as if for a true case. But students must polish their manners, spirit, and heart. The techniques try to harmonize the physical technique, mental strength, and spiritual power. This style opens the gate for use of traditional martial arts in real cases.

My teacher has always said that we are of the third type of Bujutsu, and as such ours is a living art that is constantly growing. As such, there are even certain techniques from various traditional ryu-ha that is taught at our dojo that have been changed. Anyone who has been training in this kan long enough can testify to the fact that you may have been taught a technique one way, and when you return to honbu a year or two later there is a change or variation to the same technique. So without change there would be no growth. But the key is that in essence it is all the same, and as long as the original technique and the essence of the technique is preserved, the technique can still be considered koryu. One should,however, be able to show the technique in it's original form, and then demonstrate the variation. In Duncans style, I would say that the focus is on the variation more than the original form, which would make it a member of the first category of martial arts described above. But that doesn't take away from the effectiveness of the art. Maybe it would help if it was called something different, which is why I guess he calls his system AMERICAN Koga-ru Ninjutsu.

P.S. Words in red in the above paragraph are Tanemura sensei's. Words in blue are mine.

[Prospero]

I did hear him list Draeger as one of his teachers. The fact that Fujita did not list him as a student is, as I said, not surprising given the climate of the time. Remember Draeger was military.

That is a fairly silly idea.

If Duncan claimed to have learned from Draeger, how come Draeger never claimed to have learned it from Fujita? And when would Draeger have taught Duncan? The clear conclusion is that Duncan is lying through his teeth.

We've gone through this before. Look here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32560) to see the silliness as the poster formally known as winddemon tried to confuse things as best he could.

[Kagemaru]

That is a fairly silly idea.

If Duncan claimed to have learned from Draeger, how come Draeger never claimed to have learned it from Fujita? And when would Draeger have taught Duncan? The clear conclusion is that Duncan is lying through his teeth.

We've gone through this before. Look here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32560) to see the silliness as the poster formally known as winddemon tried to confuse things as best he could.

You are resigned to your opinion, and entitled to it. Duncan could have learned from Draeger at anytime, since they were contemporaries. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. In any case, maybe they didn't put as much stock in who they learned it from as much as that they knew it. The concept of passing things down in the traditional manner is an Asian concept, not a Western one, and military men of the time didn't care much for the traditional protocol. You can see the same thing here in Japan. Does the average Japanese person making automobiles know the complete history of the automobile, or even of the company that they work for? Probably not, but they still make some of the best cars on the planet.

[Kagemaru]

Thanks for the link to the other thread, by the way. I think the words of Mr. Ernie Cates sums it up best:


Dear Sensei Joe and Sensei Amdur:

Sensei Ron Duncan studied judo, jujitsu and knife with me for 2 years. 1957-1959. He was an excellent martial arts student. He was in the same group of students at my dojo in Jacksonville, NC as Don Nagle, Jim Giles,
Don Bohan, Rick Nemura, Bryan "Chick" Burk, Howard George-1960 Greco Roman Wrestling Olympic Champion. Pat Barris (who I taught from age 8-10 when he moved to the West Coast, Barris was twice Pan Am Judo Champion. All became famous in martial arts history. Ron Duncan is a pioneer in ninja history weaponry and tactics. He was and remains my friend to this day.

Sensei Don Draeger was in the Shufu Yondanshikai. He was friends with John Anderson, Jim and Eddie Takamori, Tim Dalton, and Richard Hu. Draeger was a major in the Marine Corps. He was an East Coast Marine and well know in the Washington, Baltimore and Virginia areas in the 50's and 60's. In the 60's he retired in Japan and taught and played at the Kodokan.

Please take into account that back in 50's there were many military men at one point or another stationed in Japan. Many studied at the Kodokan and under strong Japanese Sensei's to gain their start in the martial arts. Certifications, awards and documentation was verbal, not written. Martial arts began to gain popularity in the US in the early 60's and 70's with many sometimes realistic and sometimes imaginery backgrounds and histories. It was called marketing. Schools sprang up everywhere in the US and promotional ranks and certificates began to be awarded. Many schools
attended tournaments and trophies, certificates and sometimes a cash purse was awarded.

After 58 years of being personally involved in the growth and development of martial arts and the formation of certifications, records and other applicable subjects. I find that each of us that is actively involved in today's development are the lineage. We now have certifications, modifications, and divisions of what used to be a closed door and jealous society of
emerging martial arts styles and schools. I feel we should all pay particular attention to our own individual contributions to the multi-faceted world of martial arts and cease to critique, correct or critize the sometimes not so well documented past history of martial arts.

Professor Ernie Cates,
8th Dan Kodokan Judo
Founder, Nekkyo Ryu Goshin Jitsu

Nuff Said.

[Baio]

"Certifications, awards and documentation was verbal, not written."
i'm also head of koka ryu, but it's verbal. nuff said. also i have the power to summon a giant ninja fish. prove i don't. fujita seiko himself said he didn't teach anyone ninjutsu, i think thats "nuff said" right there.

[Prospero]

Duncan could have learned from Draeger at anytime, since they were contemporaries.

Duncan lived in New York. Draeger lived in Japan.

Do you really think that Fujita would announce to the world he was taking his art to the grave, never teach any Japanese his art and then teach someone like Draeger whom he would not even admit to because of military ties?

How about the idea that Draeger would never even mention that he learned the art from Fujita to anyone that knew him or in any of his books but he still took the time to teach Duncan?

These opinions show a huge lack of logic IMO.

If Duncan claimed to have learned from Draeger then he should be able to prove it. It is something he claims happened to him, not something that happened to someone else 50 years before he was born. He has no more excuse to not be able to prove it than someone claiming to have worked at a place who can't prove it. Since Duncan can't even prove that Draeger taught him ninjutsu, he has to be treated as a BS artist like Ashida Kim.

[BigJon]

Words in red in the above paragraph are Tanemura sensei's. Words in blue are mine.

Tanemura sensei is a great martial artist indeed! But that won't change my view on Ron Duncan's hodge-podge of Koga ryu, and "Aieekee Jujutsu". Have you viewed the koga ryu ninjutsu tape? People like winddemon(mentioned by Don I think) jump out of the woodwork and say we dont like him, because he's black...no I dont like him because he's a liar, and teaches stuff that could get you killed.:)


oh and have a lovely fall day.

[Baio]

he's actually indian and hispanic not black.

[BigJon]

Ahh, thanks for the correction. All I do know is that he is Panamanian, and Winddemon used to get a single tear about the shining light, the proud Black Father of American Ninjitsu..:)

[ElfTengu]

Not XKan = Fake

Simple as

Pure as

Nuff said.

Even a poorly skilled shodan who goes off and starts his own ninjutsu school is more authentic than Ron Duncan will EVER be because at least the crap shodan's new art has sprung from something genuine even if it aint much good.

I don't care how gifted *certain* people think Duncan is a martial artist, and I am with those who believe he isn't, the fact is that you can't invent a new style of ninjutsu that has no links to any genuine Japanese Ryuha of that art.

I've used this analogy before but it would be as absurd as me, a British chap who has never been to America, starting my own Navajo Knife Fighting Method and paying no attention or seeking no guidance from a real expert in said methods.

Californian Maki rolls are just about the only acceptable American version of something Japanese and even they are based on genuine maki, rather than being made out of cheeze whizz and oreos, which is basically what Duncan's American Ninjutsu is.

[Kagemaru]

"Certifications, awards and documentation was verbal, not written."
i'm also head of koka ryu, but it's verbal. nuff said. also i have the power to summon a giant ninja fish. prove i don't. fujita seiko himself said he didn't teach anyone ninjutsu, i think thats "nuff said" right there.

Prove it. Just because that is what you read, how do you know it's true?



Tanemura sensei is a great martial artist indeed! But that won't change my view on Ron Duncan's hodge-podge of Koga ryu, and "Aieekee Jujutsu". Have you viewed the koga ryu ninjutsu tape? People like winddemon(mentioned by Don I think) jump out of the woodwork and say we dont like him, because he's black...no I dont like him because he's a liar, and teaches stuff that could get you killed.


oh and have a lovely fall day.

I never brought anything up about race in this dialogue, so it must be in your sub-concious for you to inject that into this discussion. A "Fraudian" slip of sorts?:look: In anycase, I think it's fair and safe to say that more people who have trained with him, and who find themselves in harms way as a profession, would say that what he has taught them has done more to save lives then get people killed. That is why he continues to have a good standing relationship and enloys the respect of many agencies, not to mention the US Marine Corps.

Oh, and a tooty fruity sun shiny day to you too!



he's actually indian and hispanic not black.

Uh, no he IS Black. For the record, Africa is a massive continent, with an ancient past that lies at the foundation of all of the worlds cultures. There were Blacks in India, Blacks in Spain (The Moors actually ran Spain for more than 800 years), Blacks in the Americas (Olmecs, not slaves), and many other places where you would be very surprised to find them. I can tell you with no uncertainty, that if you ask him if he is a Black man, his answer would be firm yes (and he would probably look at you as if you were blind!).


Ahh, thanks for the correction. All I do know is that he is Panamanian, and Winddemon used to get a single tear about the shining light, the proud Black Father of American Ninjitsu..


Seriously Jon, you are starting to worry me. Do you harbor some deep seaded racism? Your constant preoccupation with race in this discussion is disturbing. Why should the race of this man be even included in this discussion? Again, I did not say anything about race (nor did anyone else in this thread) so it is beyond me as to why you are bringing things from other threads concerning the mans race into this current discussion. It appears that you are trying to inject race as an issue into this ( and in quite a derogatory manor, I might add) . I am surprised at you Jon. I would have thought that beneath you.



ElfTengu

Not XKan = Fake

Simple as

Pure as

Nuff said.

Even a poorly skilled shodan who goes off and starts his own ninjutsu school is more authentic than Ron Duncan will EVER be because at least the crap shodan's new art has sprung from something genuine even if it aint much good.

I don't care how gifted *certain* people think Duncan is a martial artist, and I am with those who believe he isn't, the fact is that you can't invent a new style of ninjutsu that has no links to any genuine Japanese Ryuha of that art.

I've used this analogy before but it would be as absurd as me, a British chap who has never been to America, starting my own Navajo Knife Fighting Method and paying no attention or seeking no guidance from a real expert in said methods.

Californian Maki rolls are just about the only acceptable American version of something Japanese and even they are based on genuine maki, rather than being made out of cheeze whizz and oreos, which is basically what Duncan's American Ninjutsu is.

That is a very broad sweeping and quite childish statement. It is amazing how some people selectively choose to ignore the proof that has been precented that confirms his martial arts background ( sans the picture of him and Fujita holding a framed Menkyo with Draeger looking on wistfully, while a clock in the background accents a huge calender). But more importantly, young and fairly disrespectful people have the comfort and ability of sitting in an armchair halfway across the world and making desparaging statements about someone who has been around so much longer than them, without fear of repercussion. As I said, I would have so much more respect for a person if they would actually go to New York and see the man, then report back to us here on what the outcome was. I am sure we would all like to hear that.

Anyway, it'll never happen so you guys believe what you want if it makes your paradigm feel more secure. I will be going to NY in November for a visit, and I most probably will see Duncan. I will be sure to send him your very best regards.

[Prospero]

Prove it. Just because that is what you read, how do you know it's true?

For a reference to the fact that Fujita said he would not teach anyone his art, look up my internet article on the Koga ryu, see the Hiden source I reference and read it.

Now, show proof that Duncan learned Koga ryu from Draeger. It is something that happened to him, so he should be able to prove it. If he can't, then he is the same boat as Ashida Kim who won't show proof of learning from the person he claims as his teacher.

[Kagemaru]

For a reference to the fact that Fujita said he would not teach anyone his art, look up my internet article on the Koga ryu, see the Hiden source I reference and read it.

Now, show proof that Duncan learned Koga ryu from Draeger. It is something that happened to him, so he should be able to prove it. If he can't, then he is the same boat as Ashida Kim who won't show proof of learning from the person he claims as his teacher.

How about a link? And just because you referenced some Hiden source, doesn't make it a fact that he didn't teach anyone else. That simply CANNOT be proven. What CAN be proven is that he did not name a successor.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe in God? Can you prove his existence, or the existence of a historic Jesus? Because other than the bible (which is by no means an accurate historic text) there is absolutely NO mention of him among contemporary historians and scholars. But that doesn't stop millions of people worldwide from enjoying the benefits of the Christian religion. Despite what has been said about the climate of the times and the manner in which training was done (written about by Ernie Cates himself) you conveniently overlook that and just keep saying the same thing, so there will never be progress for people like you on this subject. You will just die set in your ways, and honestly that is just fine with me because it doesn't diminish me in the least. If you think the man is a fraud, so be it. But if that's true, then it is true for Jesus, Mohammed, and the Buddha, so I guess Duncan is in good company.

[Prospero]

How about a link? And just because you referenced some Hiden source, doesn't make it a fact that he didn't teach anyone else.

He said he did not teach anyone his art of ninjutsu. A simple google search will provide my article and the sources I based it on. If you are too lazy to look them up, then you are beneath contempt.

Or find even a single source in Japanese that he taught ninjutsu to someone else. You want us to believe that he would teach Namban Setto ryu to Japanese, but not ninjutsu and yet teach his ninjutusu to someone he would not even acknowledge due to his US military ties? Do you think we are stupid?


Are you a Christian?

No. Thank you drive through.

And I think even the christians are insulted by you trying to equate Duncan with christ. Christ is dead over 2000 years. Duncan is still alive. So who can you go to ask to prove what personally happened to them? So if Duncan can't prove he learned from Draeger, can't even prove that Draeger said he learned ninjutsu from Fujita, doesn't that make him a complete fraud?

[Kagemaru]

He said he did not teach anyone his art of ninjutsu. A simple google search will provide my article and the sources I based it on. If you are too lazy to look them up, then you are beneath contempt.

Wow. Beneath contempt. Heavy. I work for a living and I do not have time to look up your article, but a martial arts man is knowledgeable of Martial affais, so of course I am aware of the references you are alluding to. But that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't PROVE anything because you read it in a Japanese magazine anymore than if you read it in an English magazine. Do you believe everything you read?


You want us to believe that he would teach Namban Setto ryu to Japanese, but not ninjutsu and yet teach his ninjutusu to someone he would not even acknowledge due to his US military ties? Do you think we are stupid?

I don't want you to believe anything. You can believe what you want. What I said is that it is not outside of the realm of possibilities that he may have shown some of his Ninjutsu to someone, who may have shown it to someone else or to Draeger himself. We simply do not have a way of proving that. So absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, in this case. As to whether I think you are stupid, only you know yourself so you tell me.


No. Thank you drive through.

And I think even the christians are insulted by you trying to equate Duncan with christ.

You are just full of conjecture, aren't you? You are not Christian, you say, so how come you are complaining for them? In anycase, I am not being disrespectful, nor am I equating Duncan to Christ in the theological sense. I am simply using it as an analogy. I think any Christian who is a true follower of Christ can see that.


Christ is dead over 2000 years. Duncan is still alive. So who can you go to ask to prove what personally happened to them? So

I seems you are not a learned man sometimes. There were several historians who were contempory (Josephus is the one who most prominantly comes to mind) that documented very well all of the things that went on at that time. They documented the little occurences such as the flooding of rivers, to the big political happenings at the time. I think it safe to say that Jesus would have been one of the biggest political happenings at the time, and his trial, subsequent death, and then miraculous ressurection would have surely got on someones radar. Yet we find nothing. Draw your own conclusions, but by your rational that would mean Jesus never existed.

[Baio]

yes jesus didn't exist, we have no evidence for jesus existing. fujita did exist. fujita HIMSELF recorded in more than one source that ninjutsu dies with him. he passed his other arts on to a person, but not ninjutsu. that person has specifically said fujita never taught ninjutsu. fujita didn't think ninjutsu was meant for modern times and didn't want it to continue existing. the only ninjutsu donn draeger would have known is from tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu and he was adamant about not showing anything from that art because of the keppan. of course if anyone did learn koka ryu ninjutsu from fujita they should be able to name and demonstrate the first technique taught, and until phillip t hevener's book came out not one "koga" ninja could name this technique.

[Kagemaru]

yes jesus didn't exist, we have no evidence for jesus existing. fujita did exist. fujita HIMSELF recorded in more than one source that ninjutsu dies with him. he passed his other arts on to a person, but not ninjutsu. that person has specifically said fujita never taught ninjutsu. fujita didn't think ninjutsu was meant for modern times and didn't want it to continue existing. the only ninjutsu donn draeger would have known is from tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu and he was adamant about not showing anything from that art because of the keppan. of course if anyone did learn koka ryu ninjutsu from fujita they should be able to name and demonstrate the first technique taught, and until phillip t hevener's book came out not one "koga" ninja could name this technique.

Yep. But no one is saying that Duncans American Koga Ryu is related to Fujita's directly. This is all conjectur. Ok, let's look at this another way. My teacher (and your teacher also) has some old students who may have been high ranking students (yon dan or Go dan) back in the day. For some reason, these students left the kan. At the time they left, they did not have permission to teach, but they were capable, knowledgeable martial artist. Let's say one of these guys teaches a friend in the back yard for a few years, and the friend get's really good at it. He names off a couple of Ryu-ha as the source of the techniques. This friend then joins the military, joins the judo team, and teaches another friend, naming the same ryu ha as source. Now there has been no paperwork exchange, no lineage, but to a certain extent they are still practicing Ninjutsu. Now at this point, let's say the friend of the friend goes on in the martial arts and eventually becomes very good at what he has learned, and has synergized his knowledge with the essence of the Ninjutsu he has learned, and calls it American Ninjutsu. Now, he doesn't even know the original Go-dan that studied directly under the kan. So when he is asked where did he get his knowledge from he is going to list off all the people he trained with, including the friend of the go-dan, who himself does not have any official connection to the Kan. My point is, you can see how quickly the truth and the connection can get lost and convoluted.

My point is, and I'm going to leave it right here, is that WE DON'T KNOW. We can speculate, we can research, we can do whatever, but we cannot say for sure that there was not somehow a connection between Draeger and Fujita and Duncan, however diluted. And in the end, what does it matter? If he wants to call his art American Ninjutsu, so be it. Why is anybody so caught up in it that they have to resort to childish name calling and characterization?

Your teacher once said something that I have always cherished. He said "Shut up and train". Brilliant.

[Prospero]

Yep. But no one is saying that Duncans American Koga Ryu is related to Fujita's directly.

Duncan did. He claimed to have learned from Fujita. You said so yourself.

Ashida Kim claims to have learned from a guy but can't prove it. We treat him as a fraud. You do to. Duncan claims to have learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Fujita and can't prove even that. We treat him as a fraud. Why are you not consistent?

There is no excuse for not being able to prove you had a teacher. Since Duncan claims it and can't prove it, he is in the same boat as Ashida Kim.

[Baio]

we have record of fujita himself saying he did not teach ninjutsu. it's that simple. if you take fujita out of the equation and stick to the people duncan claims he trained with you're left with draeger who would also never teach the ninjutsu aspect of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to people outside the ryu. duncan does karate and hakko ryu jujutsu, some of his guys copy bujinkan videos but old duncan stuff when he was demonstrating his "art" shows it's not ninjutsu

[Kagemaru]

we have record of fujita himself saying he did not teach ninjutsu. it's that simple. if you take fujita out of the equation and stick to the people duncan claims he trained with you're left with draeger who would also never teach the ninjutsu aspect of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to people outside the ryu. duncan does karate and hakko ryu jujutsu, some of his guys copy bujinkan videos but old duncan stuff when he was demonstrating his "art" shows it's not ninjutsu

Actually that is not true and I am not going to go into it again because it just seems like people see and hear only what they want. A link was posted in this thread where Duncan has listed who some of his teachers and training partners were, so please read through it. He listed many people including Ernie Neal, Charlie Cates, and others. But you people keep trying to link him directly to Fujita, which he never claimed.

Here is a video of what Duncan does, and what he has said himself regarding his Ninjutsu. Straight from the horses mouth. Notice never did he say he was a student of Fujita. He has said that he has trained with Draeger, and that is what cannot be proven succinctly, although there is enough corroborating evidence to put him in the same place and time so it is well within the realm of possibilities that it is true, and unless it can be dis-proven succinctly and completely, then no one has the right to say he didn't because you were not there. And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone. That is a major assumption. Draeger was a marine, and anyone who is familiar with that branch of service knows how loyal marines are to each other. So it is very possible that Draeger could have shared some aspects of his knowledge with the younger marines. His loyalty would be to the corp and to America first, so it is quite possible that he may have shared it with his fellow American soldiers, men that he would ultimately be willing to die for. The fact is, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

Anyway, see for yourself.

Way of the Winds System-American Koga Ryu Ninjutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxtRdZQ6H30)

[Baio]

"And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone."

you can't prove a negative of course. nice way to insult draegers convictions, he wouldn't discuss the art with anyone who was a legtimate scholar, but passes on the most secret aspects of it to a guy who's going to dance around in a satin disco suit catching arrows and claiming it's ninjutsu.

[Prospero]

The fact is, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

We could say the same thing about Ashida Kim, could we not?

You yourself said that you heard Duncan claim to have learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Draeger. He should be able to prove that. Since he can't, he is no better than Ashida Kim.

And if you look at the early stuff, he was calling what he did Koga ryu and not American ninjutsu. The indicates a link to the Koga ryu, which of course he can't prove. He can't even prove a teacher in ninjutsu and you are trying to say that maybe he was taught. That seems pretty silly to me.

[Kagemaru]

"And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone."

you can't prove a negative of course. nice way to insult draegers convictions, he wouldn't discuss the art with anyone who was a legtimate scholar, but passes on the most secret aspects of it to a guy who's going to dance around in a satin disco suit catching arrows and claiming it's ninjutsu.

Wow. You are really judgmental. Now I am insulting Draegers convictions because I said it is possible he could have shared some aspect of what he knew with his fellow marines? How is that insulting his convictions? You want to know what I think his convictions were? "SEMPRE FI!". Once a marine, always a marine. He could care less about so-called "legitimate scholars", but he would die for his fellow marines, so yes it IS possible and I see no insult in stating that.

As for the Satin Dogi, it was a demonstration. This was the 70's and 80's so that was the manner of the day. I have seen Hatsumi teach and demonstrate wearing a Hawaiian shirt and golf shorts! So what?

[Baio]

from the video you posted duncan says he's learned various styles from koka.
who's his teacher? not draeger since he didn't learn koka ryu.
duncan says as follows.
nindai ryu - no nindai ryu listed in the bugei ryuha daijiten
naha ryu - no naha ryu of ninjutsu, only the karate but thats nowhere near koka
tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu - not from koka of course
masaki ryu - not ninjutsu, manrikigusari this name was of course taken by duncan because of charles gruzanski's popularity. nawa sensei was a researcher of ninjutsu but this was not a ninjutsu art.

so no ninjutsu

[Kagemaru]

We could say the same thing about Ashida Kim, could we not?

You yourself said that you heard Duncan claim to have learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Draeger. He should be able to prove that. Since he can't, he is no better than Ashida Kim.

And if you look at the early stuff, he was calling what he did Koga ryu and not American ninjutsu. The indicates a link to the Koga ryu, which of course he can't prove. He can't even prove a teacher in ninjutsu and you are trying to say that maybe he was taught. That seems pretty silly to me.

That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it.

[Prospero]

Wow. You are really judgmental. Now I am insulting Draegers convictions because I said it is possible he could have shared some aspect of what he knew with his fellow marines?

To do so would be breaking his blood oath to the Katori Shinto ryu.

And how the heck could he have? Duncan lives in New York. When Duncan was started claiming to teach ninjutsu, Draeger was living in Japan! So how would it be possible to teach him?

There is more proof that this government is controlled by aliens than there is for Draeger teaching Duncan ninjutsu. And personal instruction is the easiest thing to prove. Duncan should be able to prove it if it existed. Since he will not, he must be treated by a BS artist who has fooled a lot of starry eyed folks who are low on brains.

[Kagemaru]

Lol!

Anyone up for the trip to his Dojo?

[Kagemaru]

To do so would be breaking his blood oath to the Katori Shinto ryu.

You have been watching too many movies, guy. so what if he did? Are they going to send a hit squad to his house and wipe out his whole family?


And how the heck could he have? Duncan lives in New York. When Duncan was started claiming to teach ninjutsu, Draeger was living in Japan! So how would it be possible to teach him?

Read Ernie Cates's letter.


There is more proof that this government is controlled by aliens than there is for Draeger teaching Duncan ninjutsu. And personal instruction is the easiest thing to prove. Duncan should be able to prove it if it existed. Since he will not, he must be treated by a BS artist who has fooled a lot of starry eyed folks who are low on brains.

Who was your sixth grade gym teacher? Can you prove it? Your lack of respect says volumes about your character. Low on brains? Some of the most competent operators in the world, men who fly helicopters and work as part of forensic investigation units, have trained and still train with Duncan. But they are low on brains. But you are so much smarter and better, right? Unbelievable. I'm done with you.

[Baio]

You have been watching too many movies, guy. so what if he did? Are they going to send a hit squad to his house and wipe out his whole family?

so the man who basically introduced koryu bujutsu to the rest of the world didn't care about its traditions? wow you are just attacking draeger left and right


Who was your sixth grade gym teacher? Can you prove it? Your lack of respect says volumes about your character. Low on brains? Some of the most competent operators in the world, men who fly helicopters and work as part of forensic investigation units, have trained and still train with Duncan. But they are low on brains. But you are so much smarter and better, right? Unbelievable. I'm done with you.
yes i can, want to see my 6th grade year book, class picture, report cards etc? of course 6th grade gym was only one year of class, not an intimate personal relationship with a teacher in a system that contains lots of documents and ceremony.

[Prospero]

Anyone up for the trip to his Dojo?

That has to be one of the oldest internet tricks used by people on the losing side of a martial arts related debate. It is a sign that the person using it can't lay out facts in a calm manner.

Tell you what, you go train with Ashida Kim once and then come back and try hinting that folks that won't travel to Duncan are scared.

[Kagemaru]

That has to be one of the oldest internet tricks used by people on the losing side of a martial arts related debate. It is a sign that the person using it can't lay out facts in a calm manner.

No internet tricks here. All I am saying is that if you really want to accuse the man you should have the guts to do it in person. And internet trick is to sit home and type disparaging things and not be able to go out in the real world and back it up. So, shall I set that up for you?


Tell you what, you go train with Ashida Kim once and then come back and try hinting that folks that won't travel to Duncan are scared.

I've already answered this, but it seems you don't read too well. Show me where and when Ashida Kim next has a seminar, or tell me where his dojo is, and I will go. I can't train with a guy who is in hiding. And in anycase, this is not about Kim, it's about Duncan. Anyone can know when and where Duncan is, so he is not hiding from you or anyone else. So, shall I set that up for you?

By the way Mr. Prospero, when is the next time you will be in Japan?

[Prospero]

No internet tricks here.

So prove it and show up to train with Ashida Kim. Then try using that dodge here.

[Kagemaru]

So prove it and show up to train with Ashida Kim. Then try using that dodge here.

Can you read? You know what, this is getting pointless. When is the next time you will be in Japan?

[Prospero]

Can you read? You know what, this is getting pointless. When is the next time you will be in Japan?

I don't know. Are you going to get on a plane to come see me? The testosterone is getting thick in here. I don't see why I would go to Japan just to meet with someone with a racial outlook like you.

[Kagemaru]

I don't see why I would go to Japan just to meet with someone with a racial outlook like you.

????:look:

Well, when you figure out when the next time is that you will be in either New york, LA, or Japan, and if it coincides with my travels to those place, then I would be happy to meet with you and discuss this further, or arrange for you to meet Duncan. Other than that, you are going in circles and I really have no time for that, as it is pointless. So I am going to recommend that the mods lock this thread down.

[Baio]

i was invited to train with duncan twice. amazingly the first time was at a location in jersey city the very next day after i said something about duncan on youtube. this seminar magically popped up in a bad area and i was magically invited to go. of course the invitation came from someone whose son, also a ninjutsu instructor was just killed in a drive by, and whose other son harasses members of my dojo who left the group. apparently some people are told they need to stick with the black group of way of the winds and not go to the "white" bujinkan. there's lots of pressure from blacks and muslims induncans group to make other blacks and muslims stay. one member was talking to a former member who is now part of my dojo, the current way of the winds student said he couldn't leave because he fears what those people woulod do to him. there is a lot of racism in duncans group but they claim racism if anyone comments negatively on them. duncan was invited to ebudo a few times, each time his computer broke or something similar, i'm sure duncan is a fine guy but i don't trust his students, and if he wants to be public with his claims he should address them publicly.

[Kagemaru]

I'm sure duncan is a fine guy but i don't trust his students,

I understand, and I respect you for that. If that was indeed the situation then I don't expect you to go if you sense danger. But I doubt they would kill you. At worse they would invite you to a dojo which would be set up with camera's and witnesses, and they would challenge you publicly. I don't condone that approach but I can understand why they may feel slighted.

But what I suggest is you attend an open seminar. It is available to the public. Duncan holds these seminars quarterly. The next one is in November, in New Jersey. Anyone can go, so just show up and take the seminar, talk to some people, and then make your conclusion. The seminars usually consist of categories of training, so for example one segment will be geared around leaping, rolling, break falling(tobi-ori, kaiten-nage, ukemigata,etc) this is usually the warm up and may last 45 minutes or more, as you practice and explore ways of utilizing the rolling and leaping combatively, in various circumstances. Then from there you move through various circuits where you practice different aspects of Ninjutsu. It is very well done and is safe and legal. It's been going on a long time as well.

All jokes aside, if you or anyone else who may be following along on this thread are in the NY area on Nov 7th, I recommend that you check out the seminar. I am sure Duncan won't bite. He is in his seventies now.

[Prospero]

I understand, and I respect you for that. If that was indeed the situation then I don't expect you to go if you sense danger. But I doubt they would kill you.

But as stated,


one member was talking to a former member who is now part of my dojo, the current way of the winds student said he couldn't leave because he fears what those people woulod do to him.

If Duncan lets this type of thing happen under his nose, this thread should be in bad budo.

[Kagemaru]

But as stated,



If Duncan lets this type of thing happen under his nose, this thread should be in bad budo.

If Bujinkan people do something wrong, should Hatsumi go to jail?

[Prospero]

If Bujinkan people do something wrong, should Hatsumi go to jail?

If it goes on under his nose and he allows it and does not call the police or do anything to stop it, yes.

[kurzweilfreak]

I don't understand how visiting someone's dojo or meeting with them in person can legitimize their claims of lineage any better than someone could do "over the intarwebz". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and public claims require public evidence. If this lineage is true, why is it so difficult to simply show proof of who your teacher is when you are making that claim?

[ElfTengu]

Koga fans, your only horse is long dead, please stop flogging it.

[Baio]

I don't understand how visiting someone's dojo or meeting with them in person can legitimize their claims of lineage any better than someone could do "over the intarwebz". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and public claims require public evidence. If this lineage is true, why is it so difficult to simply show proof of who your teacher is when you are making that claim?

mike tyson told me he was the head of koka ryu ninjutsu, then he kicked my ass so that means he wasn't lying. right?

[Baio]

can mr duncan explain this gyokku(sic) ryu? http://i516.photobucket.com/albums/u329/korisuya/dunc41.jpg

[EWBell]

Maybe it is the Korean version. :)