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SILVERJUKE
24th August 2009, 10:08
Does anyone know where I can locate a Karate origin family Tree like the one on the Durham Budo Sai hosted by Terry Oniell many years ago.

Does anyone have guidelines for writting a Thesis of Karate?

Simon Keegan
25th August 2009, 08:23
I haven't seen Terry O'Neill's chart but there are some lineages in Mark Bishop's Okinawan Karate book; apparently there's an excellent one in John Sells's Unante book as well.

I'm working on one myself at the moment. If you PM me your email address I'll email you a copy.

SILVERJUKE
25th August 2009, 17:55
Terry's family tree was on the Budo Sai
Please email me the link
I am writting a book for my children not for commercial purposes
Only about my life in Karate as an ordinary person
Thanks for your help
email me at
matthew.quinn@fsmail.net

Joseph Svinth
27th August 2009, 04:17
My guidance on writing a thesis on karate is taken directly from the Boer general and Afrikaner politician Jan Smuts: "When you dine with the devil, take a long spoon." In less allegorical terms, what that means is that the family tree probably includes more than a few real bastards.

Simon Keegan
28th August 2009, 08:50
Matthew

I'm sending you my chart now. It runs from 1600s to 1950s.

Some of the info and lineages are straight forward (Funakoshi, Itosu, Matsumura etc) but some - identifying Iwah, Wansu. Kushanku etc are quite hypothetical.

What I have tried to do with the chart is make some sense of the relationships between instructors based on what kata[s] they taught.

For example, we know Matsumura trained under Sakugawa, Iwah and Ason but who taught him which forms? This is my attempt at working it out.

Best wishes
Simon

Guy Buyens
5th September 2009, 10:50
If interested. This is a chart I made some years ago.

Guy Buyens

TimoS
6th September 2009, 09:25
If interested. This is a chart I made some years ago.

Guy Buyens
Interesting chart. However, I do see at least one error in there, which is kind of my pet peeve. Kyan did not study karate with Itosu, despite the (very) popular claim that he did. Kyan's teachers were his father Kyan Chofu, Matsumura Sokon (he learned Seisan and Gojushiho here), Maeda Chiku (who taught him Wansu), Oyadomare Kokan (taught Passai), Matsumora Kosaku (taught Chinto), Chatan Yara (Kusanku) and whoever taught him Tokumine no kun, as Tokumine himself was apparently dead by the time Kyan went there.

Guy Buyens
6th September 2009, 13:59
I accept the remark.

However making a chart that captures everything is not easy.

I hope that the lines are not suggesting that Kyuan is a direct student from Itosu, since he is presented as a direct follower of Sokon Matsumura. There is an arrow between him and Itosu. and not between the other masters of that time but in a schematic presentation, it is difficult to capture everything. From my source there must have been some interaction, as well as with others that you mention.

I hope I didn't offend any-one by simplifying the relationships for the sake of clarity.

Guy Buyens

TimoS
6th September 2009, 15:26
However making a chart that captures everything is not easy.

True. I have, at times, considered making some sort of a chart myself, but then there's the problem that who really taught e.g. Matsumura? I'd have to rely on "folklore" and I don't like to do that. To me, there aren't any reliable sources as to who really taught Matsumura. Therefore, I could reliably draw the chart of (Kyan lineage, at least) Shorin ryu upto Sokon Matsumura, but after that, it would all be question marks. It just wouldn't look good, would it :)

From my source there must have been some interaction, as well as with others that you mention.
I would be interested in knowing what sort of interaction? You see, what I've been taught is that Itosu didn't teach Kyan. Kyan doesn't mention him as his teacher, neither do Kyan's students (with the exception of Nagamine) or Chibana for that matter. Their kata are different, sometimes very different. Of course they were aware of each other, how could they not have been, but I would really like to know what (and where/when) did Itosu teach to Kyan.

I hope I didn't offend any-one by simplifying the relationships for the sake of clarity.

Unlikely at best, but hey, at least we might get a good conversation out of this :) Seems to me that this area has been too quiet lately, anyway.