Embu: Hontai Yoshin Ryu [Archive]

Todd Schweinhart

30th August 2009, 17:52

I will agree with everyone here as well. In addition, perhaps not in this case, sometimes in Jujutsu ryu the senior(s) are sometimes less inclined to take the ukemi due to their advanced age but I have seen some pretty slick Ukemi from some of the older guys as well. So while these guys may take the senior side during weapons training they sometimes have a younger instructor take the rougher throws or dish them out to you!
This video footage is definitely from the Kobudo series and probably shouldn't be on the web in this form without permission.
On a side note, many of the senior teachers in HYR, including Inoue sensei (Kyoichi) and Yasumoto sensei were direct students of Minaki sensei and others before Inoue sensei (Tsuyoshi).

Best,
Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Fred27

31st August 2009, 17:23

Since this is already a HYR embu topic I'll post two more clips of same ryu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klkPwrjVmZ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExviAvkmT1A

Tim Weigel

1st September 2009, 11:58

Yes, also HYR, post Yasumoto time.
And not from the Nihon Budokan embu vido, just to note.

best
Tim

Guy Buyens

1st September 2009, 19:54

I read these remarks with great interest and I don’t want to start a discussion on good or better. Nevertheless here some remarks on how I perceive recent history.

Indeed Ysumoto left the system but a menkyo kaiden leaving the system is not unusual. This is in line with a way of thinking, called ichi ryu ippa. It explains part of the diversity in koryu. When a system had several students at the time a soke retired, all menkyo kaiden, then it happened that one of them became a precise follower and the other one left to establish a branch (ha) or even a new style (ryu). Those who left and started their own schools were many. Although Yasumoto left prior to the succession, it was already clear how this succession would happen.

There were several menkyo kaiden when the 18th soke (Inoue Tsuyoshi Munetoshi) retired. Some where older than Inoue Kyoichi, like Haraga Hiroshi (who lives in Kumamoto) and Sato Kimimaro (who unfortunately passed away recently). Both received menkyo kaiden from Minaki. I still had the chance to participate in the Nihon budokan taikai together with them. Inoue Kyoichi inherited the soke status from his father in 17th year of Hesei (2005 A.D.). Since I was present at that ceremony, I can assure that both these senior menkyo kaiden recognized him fully as new soke. Sato Kimimaro lead the ceremony and performed a ceremonial iaijutsu kata for the occasion. Once appointed soke, there is no discussion any-more. Independent the age, soke is the highest member of the system and those who don’t like it leave the system.

I also followed the discussion on receiving techniques but sometimes explanations can be less philosophical. Inoue Kyoichi, who was a direct student of Kanazawa Ichizo and Minaki Saburo (like his father), was known for his superb ukemi ability, which was useful when performing on the wooden surface of the Imazu dojo (where the Nihon Budokan series was filmed). Having participated in embu in places like Miyajima, Kumamoto, Nara, Tokyo, I can assure that it still feels less comfortable to be thrown on wood than on tatami and in most occasions I was lucky not to be uke.

Guy Buyens, Hontai Yoshin Ryu

Tim Weigel

1st September 2009, 20:45

I appologize.
It was not my aim to compare the skills of all people involved. Nor was it my aim to make any coment of the sôke status in Hontai yoshinryu of Inoue Kyoichi Muneori. Just to clarify for Mr. Buyens.:)
I only wanted to say that Yasumoto Akiyoshi was just another Generation. And at the time of the video Yasumoto sensei was the Senior in age, i dont know about skill, but in position inside of the ryu. He was not the one doing ukemi. Maybe they want to "Look good" in this video and this couple together each man in "his" role of uke and tori works best for this aim.;). I know, that they demonstrate together many times each time Yasumoto sensei doing technik and Inoue Sensei doing ukemi. Maybe it just was the way it works best.

best
Tim Weigel

Guy Buyens

1st September 2009, 22:50

No need to apologize at all since I was not offended. As I said this is not a discussion on good or better. As a member of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, I only want to express my thoughts on the history. But I realize there are many ways to look at the history (remember Rashomon).

Also I feel more comfortable being addressed as Guy, rather than Mr. Buyens.

Guy Buyens, Hontai Yoshin Ryu.

Tim Weigel

2nd September 2009, 08:30

Thank you Guy.
So just Tim is fine.

Yes, history can be seen in some different ways all the time.

By the way, do you know when Yamaguchi sensei from Toyama ryu first time teach at Imazu dojo?
Yasumoto sensei dont teach Toyama ryu at all. But i know Iaikempo an the first two Kata of the Ryu an exercise them from time to time. Just for fun and to keep it in memorie. And some details of that history especially in connection with HYR is quite interresting.

Tim Weigel

Guy Buyens

2nd September 2009, 16:56

Besides Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Inoue Tsuyoshi trained in Kendo, Jukendo and mastered several styles of Iaido. In his youth, he became especially skilled in Jukendo, winning as a member of the best team, the Japan National Tournament and also achieving second place in national-level individual competition twice.

An important passage in his life was the 23rd year of Showa (1948 A.D.), when he established the Imazu Juyu-kai in order to encourage and train the youth of Imazu district in Nishinomiya city. After the establishment of the Imazu Juyu-kai, he united different budo schools that agreed with his principles.

Because of his very respectful position in jukendo and his success with the Imazu Juyu-kai he was asked by Kobayashi sensei from Himeji to come and help him out with the dojo. In that time Toyama ryu was in bad shape in Hyogo and Himeji prefectures and thanks to Inoue’s presence things improved. In Showa 51, he and Sato Sensei participated in a demonstration, and this was 2-3 years later.

From what I know from Inoue sensei, Toyama ryu was created by Nakayama Hakudo, an instructor in the Japanese army with a background in Eishin Ryu. During and after the war, some kendoka who had been Nakayama’s students at one of his dojo’s (the Toyama Gakko in Tokyo) made an effort to preserve Toyama ryu. Amongst them colonel Morinaga, a subordinate of Usawa Kyuzo, a major-general. Yamaguchi Yuuki was another subordinate of Usawa sensei. He was a lower rank than colonel Morinaga but he was known for his excellent sword ability. Later Nakamuro Taisaburo would join the dojo. These men would later lead different branches: Yamaguchi-ha, Morinaga-ha and Nakamura-ha.

When I was in Japan (1989-1990), I received instruction from Kurishima sensei and Inoue soke, at that time both practicing Yamaguchi-ha.

Inoue soke has trained also in Eishin-ryu and Mugai Ryu and made a big effort to re-introduce iai-jutsu in Hontai Yoshin Ryu. The previous soke, Minaki soke didn’t teach much iaijutsu, but this was probably because of the time he lived in. Would he had lived in an earlier or later time, he would have probably focussed more on the use of the sword in his teaching.

Inoue soke insisted in iaijutsu because if one cannot use a sword, bujutsu becomes impossible. Although other parts of Hontai Yoshin ryu like teppo (firearms) and sojutsu have been lost in the curriculum, the use of the sword has been taken up again by the 18th soke, who studied the old skrolls.

Guy Buyens, Hontai Yoshin Ryu

Cron

2nd September 2009, 17:24

Removed post.

Tim Weigel

2nd September 2009, 20:45

Thank you Guy

I know, that Yamaguchi-ha Toyama ryu and Mugai ryu was studied by many Hontai dansha including Sôke and Yasumoto sensei, Sato sensei. . . But i just dont know when Toyama Ryu came in contact with Hontai yoshinryu.
It is always nice to learn new details, couse after all we are from one source.:D

Do you know if Yamaguchi-ha is still be around as a independent branch? Or maybe it is only "betsuden" of Hontai today.

best
Tim

Guy Buyens

3rd September 2009, 00:09

Tim,

I don’t think this forum should be a 2 person’s discussion. Nevertheless I ‘d like to set a few things clear because there have been quit some misunderstandings around. Again I don’t pretend to be the only one to possess the truth, I only try to give the interpretation as told by my teachers.

Yamaguchi-ha Toyama ryu is not part of Hontai Yoshin Ryu. Although both styles have been studied by the 18th soke they have not been mixed. It is true that Inoue’s skills in iai-do (Toyama-ryu, but also other iai-do styles) enabled him to re-define a set of kata within the Hontay Yoshin Ryu system but these are quit distinct from Toyama-ryu. For instance Toyama-ryu doesn't have suwari wasa (often referred to as i-wasa in Hontai Yoshin Ryu).
Sato Kimimaro in our school, was not only an excellent teacher (especially admired for the exceptional level with kodachi), he was also a remarkable Mugai-ryu teacher. Also he didn't mix schools.
Again I can not comment on Yasumoto, since I never saw him practice iai-do myself.

When you say we are from one source, I cannot comment, since I don’t know Moto-ha Yoshin ryu enough. I do know that Yasumoto was a student of Minaki, that he came to the Imazu dojo of the 18th soke and that he was fully licensed in Hontai Yoshin Ryu before creating his own style but again it is not up to me to comment on the relationship between what he is currently doing and what Inoue soke is now teaching. The few times I trained with Yasumoto sensei was when he was still in the system. I respect a lot people’s individual choices but the fact that we follow different students from the same teacher is not enough for us to think that what we now do is still very related. I do know that the current soke of Hontai Yoshin Ryu wants to capture the essence as taught by Minaki soke and Kanazawa Ichizo and is focussed on the preservation of the art as such.

One final remark, when one refers to Hontai Yoshin Ryu, the abbreviation Hontai is not correct, since Hontai as stand alone doesn’t make too much sense. Hontai can roughly be translated as (true body, true essence) and was added to yoshin ryu by the second soke when he finally came to understand truly the meaning of the Yoshin Ryu he had inherited at a young age from his father (Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu).

Indeed, the legend goes that Umanosuke (the son of Takagi Oriemon ), himself a very powerful man, realised after some time the limitations of a system reliant purely on physical strength (remember how he got defeated by the 3rd generation of Take (no) uchi Ryu, Takeuchi Hisayoshi and requested to be accepted as student). Despite having obtained kaiden from Takeuchi Ryu, Umanosuke felt that he failed for many years to integrate everything in an art that was totally satisfactory. Later, when he travelled to a shrine for 100 days, he received a divine revelation "a willow’s branches can bear the snow". After mastering mental disciplines and concepts he eventually succeeded to master a system that defeated the opponent with a "Willow Heart" (Yo no Shin). From that time on the system was called Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu: “The true essence willow school of the Takagi family”.

Most probably no soke would have abbreviated Hontai Yoshin Ryu in hontai (occasionally they might have said yoshin ryu) and the use of “Hontai” to refer to our school is a typical Westerner thing.

Guy Buyens, Hontai Yoshin Ryu

Tim Weigel

3rd September 2009, 07:25

Of course this should not be a 2 person’s discussion. But you are still around here and seem to have some insights into a system that i think is not so far away of what i do. And you are willing to share some of your knowlege. Wy should this not be interresting for other readers also?
And Yes you are right. Just Hontai is a little silly. I got a little lazy. Sometimes in mind i think about Moto-ha (yoshinryu) and Hontai (yoshinryu). Couse both is yoshinryu. But i shouldn`d write it like that.

I´m thankfull for your interpretation as told by your teachers. What else can we do.
I like the branch i`m training in and i have my teacher. And of course it is a individual choice. But it is always good to see one thing from as much angels as possible.
I think we are from the same source. Maybe the technikes differ somewhat. And maybe will get more far away from each other in future Generations. But i think both Yasumoto sensei and Inoue sensei do theire best to teach and take care of what they have learnd from teire teacher. Of course everybody in his individual way. But becouse both have the same teachers it can not differ that much.

I always thought that Toyama ryu had become a "ad one" to Hontai yoshinryu
Of course not mixed, just added.
Yasumoto sensei as written before dont teach Toyama ryu. But sometimes he teach Mugai ryu. Also not mixed up.

Tim Weigel

Vedenant

3rd September 2009, 10:48

Todd Schweinhart

3rd September 2009, 13:18

Hello guys,

These exchanges have some great information, and I also know Mr. Buyens has been deeply involved with Hontai Yoshin Ryu for many years so I am sure we can all gain insight from his comments. Also great to see Yasumoto sensei students here as well.

I would also like to add that many koryu in Japan today have very obfuscated histories. In this discussed example, we must also keep in mind that there were many people that trained with Minaki sensei and later started their own interpretation of the school. But this was the same with Minaki sensei as well. What Minaki sensei created was merely based upon the older teachings of Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu (usually referred to as Takagi Ryu). After he received Menkyo Kaiden and another person was awarded soke, Minaki sensei did what he was authorized to do, start his own school. This would be similar to Yasumoto sensei and even others like Kitada sensei (also student of Minaki sensei who started Yamato Yoshin Ryu). This is their right as kaiden holders. Some keep it exactly as their teacher(s) taught, while others create a "new" system based upon the principles of the older. With this in mind other menkyo kaiden holders sometimes stick around and assist the new soke in learning and growing while in addition helping protect the teachings of the school, almost like a brother (Mitsuyasu sensei, Sato sensei (RIP) come to mind in HYR). The soke is a whole different ball game, they can take away and add whatever they see fit. Some create new kata while others totally disregard teachings from history, and that is totally there choice.

I am honestly not totally sure how the schools are labeled in Japan as "koryu", but my speculation would be that they still contain makimono with some of the original teachings (den or yurushi) that continue the flow from the past. So while the public kata may be nothing similar to the historical kata, the students could still be awarded or taught the den material from the original ryu. I am sure another member on the forum has more insight into such organizations in Japan.

Ultimately, we have to make our decision based upon the individual teaching the ryu. After we make our decision just follow what that teacher prescribes to the best of our ability, support their decisions and help our chosen ryu continue to flow! I look forward to the continued discussion.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Guy Buyens

5th September 2009, 06:55

What Minaki sensei created was merely based upon the older teachings of Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu (usually referred to as Takagi Ryu). After he received Menkyo Kaiden and another person was awarded soke, Minaki sensei did what he was authorized to do, start his own school. This would be similar to Yasumoto sensei and even others like Kitada sensei (also student of Minaki sensei who started Yamato Yoshin Ryu).]

The word merely seems very unfortunately, when it comes to Minaki Sensei (or am I, as a non-native speaker, looking for subtilities in English that are not there).

Minaki sensei was a remarkable person. In fact, his teacher, the 16th master Kakuno Happeita, had already been planning to better organize the teaching and transmition of the various techniques and skills that had been developed over the years. Minaki continued this desire of Kakuno. He focussed on the most important and crucial skills of Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu and organize these waza in kata that we now can consider kihon in nature. Mastering the skills from these kata is essential before starting the real old kata like “omote no kata” or even the secret teachings (part of the den transmission). It take years to master these skills ans some people even don’t progress beyond that stage. Having an insight in the system merely based on this experience is not enough to comment on the system.

I cann't comment on Kitada and Yamato Yoshin Ryu because I don't know them. I never saw them and they were never mentionned by any of my teachers. Kitada was not mentionned when I asked about the menkyo kaiden that originated from Minaki and Inoue soke. Of course I don't pretend to know everything.

Todd Schweinhart

5th September 2009, 14:46

Sorry Mr. Buyens, what I mentioned was in no way to slight Minaki sensei or his teachings, but only to show what the current generation of budoka are doing has also been done in the past.

Minaki sensei was said to be a strong budoka and Kakuno sensei acknowledged that by giving him one of the treasures of the school, the sword of Yagi Ikugoro, which is still passed on today. Usually, all of the treasures go to only to the new soke.

I actually do see elements of Takagi Ryu in Hontai Yoshin Ryu but it is not the same kata from the past in terms of structure and form. HYR does still contain the Omote no kata (the very first set of techniques) as well as various techniques in the yurushi waza. Based on discussions with HYR soke and kaiden I would make the assumption that there are many other teachings in the scroll called Ryuko no maki that would relate back to the original school as well. I have seen a majority of this secret material and would again assume that this is the connection used to link back to Umanosuke. But it would be best to leave this up to someone with the connection to kyokai or shinkokai that would have more information. I simply do not know the criteria used to validate this.

On another note, the uke in the blue keikogi in the Budokan tape training with Minaki sensei might in fact be another menkyo kaiden holder from Minaki sensei.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Guy Buyens

6th September 2009, 15:20

I actually do see elements of Takagi Ryu in Hontai Yoshin Ryu but it is not the same kata from the past in terms of structure and form. HYR does still contain the Omote no kata (the very first set of techniques) as well as various techniques in the yurushi waza. Based on discussions with HYR soke and kaiden I would make the assumption that there are many other teachings in the scroll called Ryuko no maki that would relate back to the original school as well. I have seen a majority of this secret material and would again assume that this is the connection used to link back to Umanosuke.
On another note, the uke in the blue keikogi in the Budokan tape training with Minaki sensei might in fact be another menkyo kaiden holder from Minaki sensei.

I have difficulties with the remark that Hontai Yoshin Ryu has elements from Takagi Ryu. This would suggest that Honta Yoshin Ryu is a derivative of Takagi Ryu.

The way I understood history, the distinction between Takagi Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu is only made after the 16th soke, Kakuno Hachiheita (Hachiheita can also be pronounced Happeita)

Kakuno, recognized as the most talented (senior) student of Ishiya Takeo (15th soke), had his dojo in Nagata-ku, Kobe city. Apart from Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu, he also came up with his Kakuno style technique, which was taught separately from Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu.

It is true that Kakuno contributed to the developing and evolving of the skills and techniques of the school but this was true for Hontai Yoshin Ryu Takagi Ryu (i.e. Hontai Yoshin Ryu or Takagi Ryu).

I was always said that Minaki is considered to be one of the most distinguished students of the school. In fact later in his life, he was extremely well respected by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

Minaki received Menkyo Kaiden (completing mastery in the school and permitted to be independent) in the 8th year of Showa (1933 A.D.). Many episodes are told of him pursuing tough training, such as demonstrating the destruction of a stone into pieces by his bare hand. Initially Minaki opened a dojo in Ushigome, Tokyo, and dedicated himself to developing many apprentices. However, with his master Kakuno Happeita, he visited all over Japan and demonstrated the school's technique. Both of them were very active in introducing the school to the public.

When his master passed away, Minaki briefly came back to Kobe but later he decided to go out on a journey to pursue further training. In the meantime Kakuno's school was taken over by Tsutsui Tomotaro. On returning again to Kobe, Tsutsui Tomotaro had already taken up the role as successor of Kakuno and a handy solution was to entrust him with the succession under the name Takagi Ryu and Minaki with Hontai Yoshin Ryu.

Both schools made great progress and are recognized by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. In fact in the first demonstration of that organization, Takagi ryu joined Hontai Ryu for a common performance.

Also a comment on the uke in the blue keikogi in the Nihon Budokan tape. This was indeed Kitada but unfortunately, I am not aware of any mentioning of him as menkyo kaiden from Minaki, nor did I ever had the chance to train with him so I can not comment.

Also I think it is difficult to comment on the secret parts of a school when the encounter with the teachers of that school have been very brief. I have spent one year of intensive training in the system when I was in Japan some twenty years ago, afterwards staid numerous times in soke’s house (not only visiting but actually living there), participated in different embu with people of the honbu dojo (this meant also sleeping and eating together in tatami rooms during these events, hence participating in numerous discussions related to Hontai Yoshin Ryu) and received several levels of the secret teachings. Yet I don’t feel comfortable to speculate on some of the aspects that are mentioned to easily in public by people who interacted only briefly with my teachers. May-be I am slow in catching the essence of a koryu.

Todd Schweinhart

6th September 2009, 16:53

Hello again,

It appears some of the postings here have been misunderstood or taken personally.

My original statement when entering this conversation was in fact a compliment to Mr. Buyens and his depth of training and understanding so no need to restate it:
"These exchanges have some great information, and I also know Mr. Buyens has been deeply involved with Hontai Yoshin Ryu for many years so I am sure we can all gain insight from his comments."

I am a very open person for discussion about budo. If anyone would like to contact me personally then you can do so via yoshindojo.com.

Yes it is correct that Kitada sensei was the one on the HYR video with Minaki sensei. They still have an active group in Kobe area that teach what they consider Minaki sensei's system. They are only one of the many groups that teach similar systems.

I also agreed that Minaki sensei was a remarkable budoka. I have heard many of the stories of him training hard in the mountains and gaining insight into martial training. I also mentioned this regarding the sword that is still used by Inoue soke. The rock breaking (ishi wari), bou yose, tetsujo sugoki, etc,...these things should be discussed in a non public setting.

Again, nothing derogatory meant about seeing elements of Takagi Ryu in HYR, in fact it was a compliment that I would enjoy discussing with anyone. It is a fact that the older structure of that school (HYTR), no matter what name you would like to use for it there exists(ed) a structure that has been passed on from history. HYR still contains the Omote no Kata, but there are also many other sets contained within Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu. Portions of the other sets are what was used to make the newer kata within HYR (gyaku, nage, oku and possibly Yoshin no Kata). If one looks openly at both schools then the similarities can be found. It doesn't mean anything good or bad. Just the facts of how HYR developed. Even some of the makimono that I observered in Inoue sensei's house from Minaki sensei and Kanazawa sensei had the name "Takagi Ryu" in them. Same with the Kukishin Ryu bojutsu, several branches, including HYR, do not study the entire set listed in the makimono. Again, nothing negative about this and it is up to each soke to choose what they want to teach to the future generations.

I respect the budo taught in HYR, as well as the other branches, and am enjoying the exchanges. I am forever indebted to Inoue Tsuyoshi and all other senior members of HYR for the kindness and generosity shown to me during my numerous stays in Japan.

Let's get back on track and continue to discuss the Ryu in question. I would be interested in hearing more about Yasumoto sensei and his interpretation of the teachings.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Tim Weigel

7th September 2009, 11:49

Hi all
I agree completly with you Todd.
There was nothing dissrespectfull to Kakuno, Minaki or HYR at all in my opinion.
And i´m sorry if you Guy maybe unterstand it like that.
This coment:
"I respect the budo taught in HYR, as well as the other branches, and am enjoying the exchanges." is exactly what is my meaning.

Guy wrote:
"I have difficulties with the remark that Hontai Yoshin Ryu has elements from Takagi Ryu. This would suggest that Honta Yoshin Ryu is a derivative of Takagi Ryu.
The way I understood history, the distinction between Takagi Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu is only made after the 16th soke, Kakuno Hachiheita"

I dont think HYR is a derivative of Takagi ryu. But in my opinnion it is one line of Takagi ryu and there are some other lines.
Each is different of each other AND also a little different from the source it comes from; becouse it reflects the personal viewpoint of its Head. In the case of of HYR it is the personality of Minaki and Inoue in Takagi ryu it is Tsutsui and in MHYR it is Yasumoto. But i believe all reflects the teaching of Takagi ryu and is therfore a line of that Ryu.
Of course one can see HYR as mainline. That`s the reason of the Name Moto-HA yoshinryu. With this Name Yasumoto sensei exactly tell everybody that he create a branch and is not the Head of the mainline. Again, nothing offend against HYR and Inoue and Minaki.

To Todd and his question:
"I would be interested in hearing more about Yasumoto sensei and his interpretation of the teachings."

"The rock breaking (ishi wari), bou yose, tetsujo sugoki, etc,..." this is not unfamilar to me and when i look on the films of inoue demonstating HYR i see not very big differences.
I also learned the gyaku, oku and nage no kata, but Yasumoto sensei`s teaching is centered around the Kihon, Kihon oku no kata,yoshin no kata and bushin no kata. I think these kata are a little different they look more close to the henka waza Minaki sensei showes in the Nihon budokan video.
But later there is also Tanto dori, shime no kata, muto dori, kodachi. . . i think nearly the same as in HYR.

I think the real differences are only in organisational stucture of the teaching and maybe in mindset. Yasumoto sensei is very centered around the unarmed teaching, of course he teach Kodachi, Hanbo, chobo, Nawa. . . but his focus is very much of Jûjutsu. And with this he is maybe more close to Minaki than Inoue in restoring HYR Tachiwaza. (Please dont understand it wrong Guy.)

In MHYR we also have the shoden, chuden, okuden and kaiden steps. I think it`s the same way as in HYR. Yasumoto sensei every time give them in Makimono form.
Maybe thats a different, couse one time he told me that Inoue sensei very often give Booklets (dont know the japanese name at the moment ) instead of Makimono (skrolls).

I own myself shoden and chuden, so i have only seen this two. But i can not make any comment of any differences of them to HYR or any other branch becouse i never see one of theire skrolls.

best
Tim Weigel,
Moto-ha yoshinryu

Todd Schweinhart

7th September 2009, 12:24

Great post Mr. Weigel with some great insight into Motoha Yoshin Ryu.

So now we know that the older teachings exist from Yasumoto sensei as well. Interesting that he chose to give makimono (scrolls) instead of densho (booklets). This would be more of the norm for the older lines of Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu that I have seen.

Congratulations on sticking around long enough to obtain the den style licensing under Yasumoto sensei. I have seen private footage of him and he appears to be a wealth of knowledge. I would be interested in discussing more of this with you offline when you are available.

It is true that the densho I have seen from Inoue sensei were in booklet (densho) form. And it does appear from what I have seen from HYR, MHYR and Yamato Yoshin Ryu that they all contain similarities in structure and technique. These are all definitely based on Minaki sensei's interpretation of the older Takagi Ryu techniques. Other schools are either based on Ishitani sensei or Takamatsu sensei and have the older structure of jujutsu kata but may have very similar "secret" teachings. When I say older sets I am referring to Omote, ura, tai shirabe, daisho sabaki etc. From what I have seen of the other branches, elements of the older sets are still included in the newly structured sets (ie, gyaku, nage, oku).

This statement is not meant to be biased but based upon research of historical documents. The older scrolls that I have seen do not include gyaku, nage, oku sets so there is no doubt that this is the creation of Minaki sensei with perhaps some influence from Kakuno sensei.

As I mentioned, the histories for most Koryu are very complicated. We are only talking about present times but we can assume that this very topic applies throughout the history of the ryu. This means the history is just too convoluted to firmly grasp.

During my travels to Japan over the years I have visited many places associated with Hontai yoshin Takagi Ryu and discovered many teachers from various branches. They are all great and all believe they are doing what is best for the ryu. We don't have to follow any of them if we don't wish but we should respect them all for the hard work they have put in and the will to pass on the teachings to the next generation.

Looking forward to continued discussion!

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Tim Weigel

7th September 2009, 12:32

Dear Todd
Just Tim is fine.

"I would be interested in discussing more of this with you offline when you are available."
Of course we can discuss offline or online if you want. I´m open do discuss about Koryu and MHYR. If there ist something i dont know or i dont want to say i just tell to you.
Yes, Yasumoto sensei is a wealth of knowledge. And we are very fortunate to have him.

best
Tim Weigel,
Moto-ha yoshinryu

Guy Buyens

7th September 2009, 18:22

I think the real differences are only in organisational stucture of the teaching and maybe in mindset. Yasumoto sensei is very centered around the unarmed teaching, of course he teach Kodachi, Hanbo, chobo, Nawa. . . but his focus is very much of Jûjutsu. And with this he is maybe more close to Minaki than Inoue in restoring HYR Tachiwaza. (Please dont understand it wrong Guy.)

The problem with written communication is the emotional connotation which is not always in line with the mind set of the author. If I come over as offended, be assured I am not.

I have no problems at all with any of the other schools or even branches of the system, as long as people are serious and honest in what they do. In fact I stated that this is not a discussion on good or better, indicating that there are many skilled people around.

However I do feel it is appropriate for me to comment on the interpretation of the history when I feel it is not in line with what I have been told. I do acknowledge that there are different sides to history.

Having said this, I do agree that personal priorities of a soke determines to some extend what is currently emphasised in a system. Indeed, Inoue Tsuyoshi (18th soke of Hontai Yoshin Ryu) made a lot of effort in restoring iaijutsu but his son, Inoue Kyoichi (now 19th soke of Hontai Yoshin Ryu) is much more concerned to focus on the teachings of his teachers (Minaki and Kanazawa). His speciality is jujutsu in all its aspects and also he says that he wants to achieve Minaki’s level with the hanbo (hanbo was by far the preferred weapon of Minaki soke).

To conclude I want to comment on what according to Inoue soke is a common misunderstanding about the term jujutsu. Indeed, jujutsu is almost always used in a restricted way to refer to weaponless fighting. In Hontai Yoshin-ryu, the philosophy of the art can be applied in all situations, including armed confrontations. Therefore all Hontai Yoshin-ryu can be considered jujutsu. If this is the case and if one feels the need to classify kata into categories, the words emono kata for weapon forms, and toshu kata for weaponless forms, can be used. Again, this philosophical interpretation can be seen as a statement and I know many serious martial artists who use the term jujutsu only for weaponless techniques.

Guy Buyens
Hontai Yoshin Ryu

Todd Schweinhart

7th September 2009, 18:44

Good points Mr. Buyens,

I know everyone has their own side of the history. Even the Yamato Yoshin Ryu group say that they teach the correct Minaki sensei teachings. I am sure everyone of the teachers are doing just that and none of them mean this in a negative way. So it might be best to say that they are teaching their own interpretation of what Minaki sensei taught to them.

So again there were so many people that trained with Minaki sensei that it is difficult to pin down. We have only included some of the more mainline teachers but there are others as well. One name that comes to mind immediately is Tanaka Fumon sensei.

If I remember correctly, I also wanted to mention that the name Minaki sensei originally used was Fumon Yoshin Ryu. This was after the waterfall in the mountains that he did some of his austere practices. I am not exactly sure why he later changed it to HYR. Maybe one of you gentlemen have a better answer for this one. To my knowledge the original teachings also stated that a portion of the original name (Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu) should be used in the naming convention by anyone receiving menkyo kaiden and starting their own branch. To my knowledge, this appears to be true for all the discussed branches so far (HYR MHYR YYR).

Looking forward to more information guys! Thanks for the discussion.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Tim Weigel

7th September 2009, 19:10

I will use emono kata for weapon forms, and toshu kata for weaponless forms in future disscussions.
"Therefore all Hontai Yoshin-ryu can be considered jujutsu" thats completly true also for MHYR."
But specially with Tachi waza Yasumoto sensei often use the term Jûjutsu to describe the more weaponless technikes oposed to Tachi involved. I just go the same path.
Inside our special comunity everyone understand. But again i have to be more carefully.
"The problem with written communication is the emotional connotation which is not always in line with the mind set of the author." Guys point fit in very good with that.
That hanbo was by far the preferred weapon of Minaki soke seem to be very impressive of many of his students (of course;)). Yasumoto sensei, same as you wrote about Inoue sensei works very much with the hanbo.

I know that Minaki sensei used the Name Fumon yoshin ryu at some time. But i dont know why he settled down to Hontai yoshinryu. Maybe Guy knows about that.

Tim Weigel,
Moto-ha yoshinryu

Guy Buyens

7th September 2009, 20:27

The branch from Tanaka Fumon is different from other systems that originated from Minaki.

Again, I don’t want to comment on capabilities, but I am concentrating on how I perceive history.

Fumon claims the title of soke in a number of schools. For instance in the Iaijutsu that is based on the art of Hayamizu Nagato no Kami Enshin (a bodyguard of Emperor Ogimachi). The school is known for the art of cutting, which they call Suemonogiri, emphasizing on the skill set rather than the pure testing of the sharpness of the sword (tameshigiri).

The current headmaster of Enshin-ryu (the complete name is Iai Suemonogiri Kenpo) is Masumoto Takamasa. Like Fumon, he was Kobashi Hiyoshi’s student. Masumoto Takamasa is also known for the Osaka enbu each year, where our school is represented. During one of the parties organized by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, together with Inoue soke, we spent quit some time discussing and I was fortunate to receive his advise on the specs of the new shinken that I was about to order in the beginning of this year.

The original Enshin-ryu was also known for its Taijutsu (grabling techniques).
Unkike for Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Fumon can be seen in the original videos of Enshin ryu.

From what I know, Matsuda Kyodo received a license from Minaki when the master was old and sick. Almost immediately after that (Matsuda Kyodo was soke for only one day or so), he passed the license to Tanaka Fumon. None of the menkyo kaiden I spoke with, remembered training intensively with Fumon who claims to have been a secret student of Minaki. I don’t want to comment other than in recent years it is considered hard to progress and capture the essence of a system when not being challenged continuously by high level peers. I don’t want to insinuate that it is impossible, it surely is very unusual. I also think that if it was realy Minaki's intention to have Fumon as sucessor, he could have arranged the transmission directly. Minaki sensei obviously didn't choose for the easiest way, but again, as I said, he was old and sick.

Note that Fumon’s branch has become popular through a number of books, including Serge Mol’s book. It turns out that Serge Mol got introduced by us to Inoue soke when soke was in the UK. His knowledge of the system was none but a few years later, I was surprised to hear he was a high graded student of Fumon’s system. Although I sincerely believe that in general Serge Mol has written a good guide, I do think his interpretation on our school and related systems is tendentious. Unfortunately I didn’t had the change to meet him recently or to see him practice.

When it comes to being soke in a traditional school, this is a heavy devotion. For me it is a mystery on how Fumon can devote his time as soke to so many schools (Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu , Koden Enshin Ryu, Honmon Enshin Ryu Suemonogiri Kenpo, Tenshin Hyoho Shoden Kukamishin Ryu ) but again, there might be something I don't understand.

There are others who give the impression to collect soke titles. As long as this is a title only associated with the possession of the necessary documents, than this is fine. It is more difficult to relate this to true leadership of a school with a high family connotation (students of a traditional system are often considered “family”).

Guy Buyens
Hontai Yoshin Ryu

Todd Schweinhart

7th September 2009, 21:47

Again good information Mr. Buyens,

I can't reallly comment on Mr. Tanaka and his budo training with other schools although I do know he was once a student in Enshin Ryu and said by many to be an excellent swordsman. I also did see a video of him training with Matsuda sensei with Minaki sensei in it. They were doing Kukishin Ryu bojutsu and Jujutsu as well. During my communications with Tanaka sensei, I have also seen a picture of Tanaka sensei receiving a makimono from Minaki sensei and as you stated Minaki sensei looked to be pretty advanced in age. It appears in later years many of the licensing that Tanaka sensei received were actually from Kaminaga sensei (an old friend of Inoue Tsuyoshi sensei). That may be the licensing that Mr. Serge Mol also received for Takagi Yoshin Ryu but I am not totally sure about this. Maybe Mr. Serge Mol could join this conversation as well as some others to assist in understanding more about these schools.

It is also true that Matsuda Kyodo sensei did in fact receive a scroll from Minaki sensei for Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu. As you gentlemen know this system is usually passed along with Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu. This is where the "soke for a day" saying originated. He apparently was/is also a kaiden holder of Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu and wanted to focus his time on this ryu and decided to allow his training partner, Tanaka Fumon, to receive the leadership instead. Last time I was in the Kobe area, Matsuda sensei is still teaching SMR Jojutsu to his students and was in great health.

On another note, some of the older pictures I have seen of the younger Minaki sensei he usually has a Take Dou (bamboo body protector)either on or with him, which is used in the advanced kata of Hontai Yoshin Takagi Ryu to allow more spirited training. By looking at these older pictures and hearing various stories from kuden he has always had his moustache.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

Shinobi

8th September 2009, 03:11

Mr. Schweinhart, Mr. Buyens, Mr. Weigel and others,

Glad to see a good discussion here on this historically rich ryuha. I’ll add what I think is the truth based on the research I have done into this ryuha. Although admittedly my sources are limited and I have never visited the Kakuno-den groups, but I do have most of the public material put out by them (brhdjt, nihon kobudo soran, etc) including all their respective websites.

Here is what we know in a “nutshell” broken down in simple form so we can all see it clearer. I’ll list the more well known groups with their lineages starting from Yagi Ikugoro with only surname to save space and so its easy to follow along.

Also to point out (reminded to me by George Kohler), Yagi Ikugoro never gave the “sokeship” to one person, so the 3-4 (Ishitani Takeo, Fujita Togoro, Inoue Kumataro, Hirano Jiemon) who got menkyo kaiden from him all started their own branches causing much of the confusing we’re experiencing today.

Ishiya can also be read/pronounced/romanized as Ishitani as is well known.

Also Ishiya (Ishitani) Matsutaro is honorarily listed in the lineages for Kakuno-den but didn’t teach Kakuno Happeita so I’ll leave him out.

Takagi-ryu (aka Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu):
Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Tsutsui, Kusuhara, Kusuhara.
(koryu, possible alterations in Meiji, Taisho and Showa)

Hontai Yoshin-ryu (Fumon Yoshin-ryu):
Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Inoue 1, Inoue 2.
(gendai based on koryu, Showa alterations, created by Minaki Saburo based on the changes started by Kakuno Happeita, founded in 1939)

Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu:
Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Inoue 1, Yasumoto.
(gendai based on koryu, Heisei alterations, Yasumoto received his menkyo kaiden from Minaki though founded by Yasumoto)

Yamato Yoshin-ryu:
Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Kitada, Imai.
(gendai based on koryu, Heisei alterations founded by Kitada)

Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu:
Yagi, Fujita, Mizuta, Takamatsu, Ueno, Kaminaga (koryu, Meiji alterations by Mizuta, possible Showa alterations)

Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu jutai: (Hatsumi’s line is a combo of both Ishitani and Mizuta lines)
Yagi, Ishitani 1, Ishitani 2, Takamatsu, Hatsumi (koryu, possible alterations in Showa)
Yagi, Fujita, Mizuta, Takamatsu, Hatsumi (koryu, Meiji alterations by Mizuta, possible Showa alterations)

Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu:
Yagi, Ishitani 1, Ishitani 2, Takamatsu, Sato, Tanemura (koryu, possible alterations in Showa)

There are other lesser-known groups still active (like the Ishizaki-den, Fujitani-den, etc) but I’ll leave those out since the majority only know of the above and it will only add to further possible confusion.

This is what I have found and how I see it, if you disagree please correct where I am wrong as I am open to friendly debate and welcome expanding my horizons. Seems like the FACT is that all the branches of Takagi based arts/lineages have all been altered to some degree at some point in their histories since the time of the Meiji restoration. Mr. Schweinhart can fill you in on a lot more regarding the use and name of the school(s).

Hope this helps,
with respect to all the branches,
Eric

Tim Weigel

8th September 2009, 12:08

Dear Mr Weil

Thank you for this post. I agree, that the listened shools are the better-known groups still active in the large family tree of Takagi ryu.

I want to comment one point:
Why you classify HYR, MHYR and YYR as gendai based on Koryu?
I know, there are some different ways to classify a koryu. And i dont want to bring up this disscussion here, couse it has the potential to kill this treat.
All of them are in legit kaiden lines. And as you wrote yourself:

"Seems like the FACT is that all the branches of Takagi based arts/lineages have all been altered to some degree at some point in their histories since the time of the Meiji restoration."
All have changed also after Meiji, so that cant be the point, becouse than all the lines would be gendai.
Maybe you mean they dont use the Name Takagi? Again, Names and Technikes can be altered by lizensed people. None of them start something completly new and different like atarashi naginata or Kendo, or Aikido (This i would name gendai based on Koryu)

I would prefere to classify all this lines as Koryu.
You seem to have some knowledge. Maybe you can offer some insights into the history, or stories about teacher involved or all the small things that are different or same in the branches, becouse that brings more light to this as you write "historically rich ryuha" for all branches.

Todd the story about the Take do of Minaki sounds interesting. Yasumoto sensei recoment a do especially to exercise Tanto dori in a more fast way.
He was surprised, that i dont have some in my dojo (theyre expensive when you buy new one here in germany)
And offer to by some old from some Kendoka around to give me in Oktober when i go to Japan.

best
Tim Weigel

Todd Schweinhart

8th September 2009, 12:55

Now we are rolling fellas! We have a new addition to the discussion! Welcome Mr. Weil!

Good posts men!

This is where the discussion could become sticky. The difference in Koryu or Gendai...I was hinting at this in my prior posts and mentioned that we need someone from one of the organisations in Japan that determine what is and what is not, Koryu. For example HYR is categorized as Koryu but why is that? I have thoughts on this and might also add that one of the determining factors would be style of teaching and structure of licensing. This would in my opinion not categorize the Bujinkan or some other groups as koryu.

I might also add, what I think Eric is stating is that the branches under Minaki sensei do not contain the older sets of kata. This was the criteria used for my earlier statements. This is why I classify them as Gendai, in that they have totally left out many of the older sets and created a "new" system of kata.

Don't stone me...just my observations.

Best,

Todd Schweinhart

WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM