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poryu
9th February 2001, 14:02
Does anyone here study Hon Tai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu?

As part of my Bujinkan Dojo training I do the Takagi Yoshin Ryu. Historically they were one and the same until about 100 years ago.

I am interested in obtain videos so I can see the difference between the two now.

I would also like to l know if anyone has a kata list. I would like to compare the names of the kata between the two schools see the structure etc to compare the differences in the two.

thanks in advance

Todd Schweinhart
9th February 2001, 22:58
Mr. Richardson,
I am a student of Hontai Yoshin Ryu and the Bujinkan. I would be happy to discuss some of the similarities of these two particular ryu via email. My address is TODDSBUDO@AOL.COM. Look forward to hearing from you.
Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Neil Hawkins
10th February 2001, 01:41
For more info on Hontai Yoshin Ryu see:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/8136/ and
http://www.hyrusa.com/

Regards

Neil

poryu
10th February 2001, 18:50
Thanks guys.

I have seen these two sites before. I have also used the Koryu.com link to look at the sites they list and the links on those site.

They have some excellent pics., and a few great history.

I have amassed a large collection of history on the Takagi Yoshin Ryu line which I am happy to share, but when it gets to Ishitani (Ishiya) it branches off wildly into the seperate branches. Thats where my history is lacking.

I would love to find out more about Kakuno who studied under Ishitani.

Neil Hawkins
11th February 2001, 02:00
Paul,

Their are stories of links between Takagi Ryu and Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu, do you have anything that corroborates this? There is little available from the Tsutsumi side, but I have not had much luck finding details from your side.

Links are also claimed between Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu and Kukishin Ryu, have you reseached them as well?

Anything you have on this would be appreciated.

Try e-mailing Daniel Lee (mailto:daniel_lee@geocities.co.jp), he trains in Hontai Yoshin Ryu in Japan and lurks here. He may be able to give you more info.

Regards

Neil

poryu
11th February 2001, 11:00
Hi Neil

I have been asked this before.

Some one in Austraila emailed me and sent me some Soke lists with some great Kanji for the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu.

I have never found any connection in my lists.

AS you said canDaniel Lee help you there. He has direct contact with the HYR soke. Maybe he can ask him for you.

I would also like to know if there is a connection.

I dont know if you have the Tsutsumi Ryu list I was snet. If not I will email it to you if you want

Neil Hawkins
11th February 2001, 22:37
I have the list, I believe it would have been Ian Thomason who asked you previously, he's our resident historian.

Thanks anyway.

Neil

George Kohler
11th February 2001, 23:26
Hi all,

The only connection that I could find is in Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu lineage. In the lineage of KSDHB it lists ’η”Œγˎη—₯ŽR Tsutsumi Houki no Kami Ritsuzan as the 8th Soke. His teacher was ‘ε?‘‹SŽO‘Ύ?΄?Ÿ Ohkuni Kisanta Kiyosumi.

I should also mention that Tsutsumi's student was ŒIŽR‰E‹ίŒΉ’·–[ Kuriyama Ukongen Nagafusa, who was also the 9th soke of Tenshin Hyoho Kukamishin Ryu. But in the Tenshin Hyoho lineage it has —L”n‰Ν“ΰ”V‰ξ?³?d Arima Kawachi no Suke Masayoshi as his teacher. It is said that Kuriyama is the one that founded Hanbojutsu. In the Battle of Nagashino, which was in 1575, his spear was cut in half, which left him with a 3 foot staff to defeat a well known warrior from the other side (In other Kukishin Ryu schools there are other stories/theories on how hanbojutsu was founded).

From the information above, if correct, would put Tsutsumi Hoki no Kami Ritsuzan around the mid 1500's.

Hope this helps.

Neil Hawkins
12th February 2001, 02:27
Thanks George

I did get some info from you a year or so back.

I tried writing to the people at http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html who claim to be the official lineage of Kukishin. They do not list Tsutsumi and sent me a very brief response to say that they had not heard of him, and further details of the lineage would be published later.

There were comments that the Kukishin Tsutsumi was a different spelling from the Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu name, but you confirmed to me that the kanji were the same. Much of the Tsutsumi Hozan bojutsu is similar to that I have seen from the Kukishin Ryu but I do not know when it was added to our system.

As always any information is graciously recieved. :)

Regards

Neil

Robert Reinberger
12th February 2001, 10:25
Originally posted by Neil Hawkins
I have the list, I believe it would have been Ian Thomason who asked you previously, he's our resident historian.

Dear Mr. Hawkins,

please give my warmest regards to Ian. We have had some e-mail contacts in the past, originating from the jujutsu-list.

BTW, where you at Jan de Jong shihan's 80th birthday celebration last saturday? If so, do you know if my video arrived in time?

Regards,
Robert

Neil Hawkins
12th February 2001, 10:58
Robert,

No unfortunately, I currently live on the opposite side of the country and was unable to get the time off. I have heard that it was a really good day, I shall ask about your video. I would think that you will hear from Shihan in the not too distant future.

For those that are wondering what we are talking about, my instructor Shihan Jan De Jong of Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu jujutsu, celebrated his 80th birthday last weekend.

Neil

Stevo
13th February 2001, 13:14
G'day Neil & Robert,

Shihan de Jong's 80th birthday celebration was a huge success. Neil, I recommend that you contact Maggie or Margaret to see if you can secure a copy of Jan's new video of the club's history. It's well worth it.

I have a little information on Tsutsumi Hozan and will do some digging for you. Any additional piece of the puzzle you have would be most welcome!

Robert, I couldn't say if Jan received your video or not. As you can imagine, it was a very busy day for Jan. Hundreds of people attended and there was a lot of catching up to do! A great day for all.

Steve Moller

Neil Hawkins
13th February 2001, 23:30
G'Day Steve,

Welcome to E-Budo, the jujutsu thread has been a little quiet recently so please feel free to shake things up with some posts. :)

Neil

poryu
14th February 2001, 02:56
HI Neil


It was Ian who contacted me I dug his info he sent today ot help any further with your search with the connection between the schools.

Troy Wideman
14th February 2001, 04:00
As Mr. Richardson stated I am also interested in the difference between Hontai Yoshin Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu as well. I study the Ishitani den- Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu under Tanemura Sensei and I was curious if the Hontai Yoshin Ryu is the same in content. I know in Ishitani den there are 13 omote patterns and 3 ura patterns for each omote pattern for the shoden Menkyo. I also know that in Hontai Yoshin Ryu (Ishitani and Mizuta) there is three sections for the middle level, they are Tai No gata, sabakki no gata, eri shime no gata, is this the same in Hontai Yoshin Ryu. I was wondering if some of the e-budo members that practise Yoshin Ryu would comment on this. I was also curious as to the ranking structure within your orgainization as well.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Troy Wideman
14th February 2001, 04:38
Mr. Lee,

Thank you for posting a reply. I have looked at the website, however, it does not go into detail about the content I was curious about. I have heard the Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu patterns are quite different. I was curious if the sections were the same or quite different. I was told that the unarmed section is a little smaller and not divided into as many sub sections. I would be most interested to find out a little more, if that is possible. My private email is twideman@home.com if you want to contact me there instead. I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Troy Wideman
15th February 2001, 00:28
Dear Mr. Lee,

Thank you for your advice and I will look into obtaining the publication and video. If possible, could you give me an idea where to obtain them. Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Kamuii
15th February 2001, 05:00
Troy:

Try this site, see if ti what you are looking for.

http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page41.html


Best,

Troy Wideman
20th February 2001, 05:05
Arnold,

Thanks for the information on the website!

Kind Regards,

Troy

Kamuii
20th February 2001, 20:53
Troy:

No problem, I am glad to help in any way I can.

Take care,