Defining Ninjutsu

[Oniyama]

So how do you define Ninjutsu? The simple answer might be to say that Ninjutsu is the art of perseverance. While that may be true, under that broad, ambiguous definition any martial art might be called Ninjutsu. In terms of martial arts there are always those things that clearly separate one art from another. What to you think defines a martial art as Ninjutsu and what do you think eliminates an art from being Ninjutsu?

[Monadnock]

I've always associated it with those "non-conventional" skills used in warfare. Spying, entering undetected, sabotage, assassination, etc., with a mix of empty hand and weapon arts to assist in completing the intended goal.

I think most, if not all, of these skills are not taught today. If they are, they are most likely reinterpretations from old literature.

Words like Ninjutsu and Karate are becoming used more in the English language. See http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/loanwords.html for more on "loan words."

I think this is why we see more American Karate and American Ninjutsu popping up and being used more loosly; to the chagrin of the traditionalists.

[Gakkousei]

Most, if not all of these skills ARE taught today to SEALS and Special Ops. Maybe not the exact techniques of old, but definitely paths to the same effect(s).

[Prospero]

What to you think defines a martial art as Ninjutsu and what do you think eliminates an art from being Ninjutsu?

Sometimes it is harder to define what something is than what it is not.

In this case, I would say any art that has capturing and forcing the opponent to surrender is not ninjutsu.

Any art that is not from Japan is not ninjutsu. There are plenty of good terms you can use to describe a martial art in your native language- use them instead of a term you don't know! (That was directed at those folks that decide that what they do is some modern form a ninjutsu for marketing sake.)

Any art that can't be done after low crawling all night is not ninjutsu.

Any art that causes you to stand out from others, like the knuckles some karateka get, is not ninjutsu.

Anything created by someone without at least 30 years of regular training with a valid ninjutsu teacher is not ninjutsu.

[ElfTengu]

I think that a modern definition would be that ninjutsu is what is added to bujutsu to make it work against ANY opponent, even if they are a champion martial athlete. That old thing about the art of winning, I take to mean at all costs, I mean think about it, what could you do to defeat a deadly adversary that wouldn't be loosely decribable as ninjutsu? Even dropping a nuclear missile on them would be within the confines of kayakujutsu! :D

[Oniyama]

I am of the mind that Ninjutsu is a uniquely Japanese martial system, so any art claiming to be Ninjutsu must, at its core, be Japanese. I do not believe that clumping together a bunch of martial arts techniques from a variety of other cultures and then calling that creation Ninjutsu is appropriate or valid.

Certainly there is a strong element of stealth and covert operations that is part of the Ninjutsu definition but that does not meant that all covert operations are Ninjutsu.

Also I feel that if what you are doing was not called Ninjutsu over 100 years ago it probably is not Ninjutsu today.

Where a definition for Ninjutsu comes into play today is in the realm of martial arts schools. People who are engaged in actual modern day covert operations are not worried about what their activites are called. However, those who seek out Ninjutsu as a martial art to study have a reasoable expectation that when they find a Ninjustu class what is taught is legitimately Ninjutsu. To throw a bunch of things together and call what is created Ninjutsu and then offer that as a class, especially for money, is fraud, or at the very least, folly.

[Monadnock]

While we seem to have cleared up what is fraud and folly, I'm now really curious if there is some concensus on what IS "Ninjutsu."

What I've read so far is that is a Japanese martial art of perseverence. Is that correct?

I'm wondering of any of the Shidoshi here may be able to offer a more precise definition of what they are charging money to teach. Although I understand "Budo Taijutsu" to contain only elements of Ninjutsu. My own knowledge [what little there is] is limited to books by Hatsumi, who seems to be the leading authoritative figure on the subject, so I will easily stand corrected by those more in the know.

Kind regards,

[Oniyama]

I think that a safe definition might be as follows:

Ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art that, in addition to armed and unarmed combat skils, in its system includes espionage, infiltration and military strategy. The character Nin translanslates to perserverance so Ninjutsu could also be called the Japanese art of perservering.

I think that is the basics of it. No doubt others may have something to add of clarify but I think that would be a good working definition.

[Prospero]

I think that is the basics of it. No doubt others may have something to add of clarify but I think that would be a good working definition.

I think it is a good start, but not the most complete.

It is kind of like if we were to define what would qualify someone as a doctor. We could not do it. We don't know enough about medicine and the process to determine everything they need to be a doctor and could only give general descriptions.

But if we say some guy running around, chanting and using leaches to try to heal someone, we can pretty much say that the guy is not a doctor.

There is a lot more involved with the art and we don't know everything- yet. That is not to say that we can't look at a lot of folks who do tae kwon leap in black pajamas and say that they are not doing anything close to ninjutsu.

[ElfTengu]

I am of the mind that Ninjutsu is a uniquely Japanese martial system, so any art claiming to be Ninjutsu must, at its core, be Japanese. I do not believe that clumping together a bunch of martial arts techniques from a variety of other cultures and then calling that creation Ninjutsu is appropriate or valid.

Absolutely. To apply ninjutsu to a real life scenario, and such a scenario need not necessarily be violence related, it could surveillance of a retail premises or hiding in a bush when you see someone coming along the footpath that you don't want to speak to, you must be a student of one of the organisations that teach ninjutsu as part of a wider syllabus. If someone isn't a student of one of those orgs then whatever they are doing it isn't ninjutsu.


Certainly there is a strong element of stealth and covert operations that is part of the Ninjutsu definition but that does not meant that all covert operations are Ninjutsu..

And even those of us in the X-kans probably spend less than 1% of our training time on 'stealth', including Soke and the shihan these days.

[Tsujimoto]

Ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art that, in addition to armed and unarmed combat skils, in its system includes espionage, infiltration and military strategy.
Personally, I think the majority of ninjutsu was espionage, infiltration and military strategy. Or, tactics based around these concepts (yo-nin, in-nin). I'm not sure just how many combat skills were actually unique to the ninja and "ninjutsu". A lot of koryu incorporate the use shuriken and other kakushi buki. I think the uniqueness of ninjutsu was based around unconventional/subterfuge tools. Not so much armed and unarmed combat as we often practice it.

[poryu]

I am of the mind that Ninjutsu is a uniquely Japanese martial system.

If your going to use the word 'Ninjutsu' only to describe this collection of skills then its correct, but as Ninjutsu is an auxillary system similar to modern special forces and spies etc etc, then its incorrect.

Today's special forces are the closest you will get to their anscestoral cousin the ninja.

Its too wide a subject to define in my opinion. Each ryu was different to another some had fighting skills some didnt.

Is the SAS and Delta force the same? - not they are similar.

I think the only way to define ninjutsu is to compare each school and then draw up similarities between them. Difficult as its a dead system (in the old view point)

[imarubber]

I think natural movement, moving with nature, however you want to say it, is a major factor in separating ninjutsu from other arts. It just doesn't look like your average kung fu or karate-based art.

[Prospero]

Today's special forces are the closest you will get to their anscestoral cousin the ninja.

I don't think they are even close. Even if it were so, would you think that the modern Japanese Self Defense forces would be considered modern samurai?

Cayce has it right I think. The art just looks different than anything else. If you look at an aikidoka and jujutsuka you should be able to tell they move differently. But people with no experience might think they are doing the same thing. As they get more experience with the subject matter, they see more of the differences. Many of us just can't see the differences between Gyokko ryu koshijutsu and Togakure ryu Tonsogata, but that does not mean they are not there. We just have to get more experience and learn more about the subject matter.

[Kagemaru]

Ninpo, simply put, is the art of being. And Ninjutsu is the art of expressing that being-ness combatively. To that end, there were a number of traditional schools of thought (both physical and meta-physical) that were perfected in Japan during it's history of war and isolation which are unique, and which make up the canon of traditional Japanese ryu-ha associated with Japanese Ninpo / Ninjutsu.

On the other hand, a bird by any other name is still arguably a bird, meaning that there are modern expressions of Ninjutsu that may be only remotely related to the traditional forms of the art, but remain true to the essence of the art. In these arts you can see the impression of the parent arts of Japan as well as influences from the adoptive culture. These should not be mistaken for the traditional arts and should be classified as what they are (maybe we should come up with a universally recognized term for modern Ninjutsu that has links to Japan, like Jiu-Jitsu versus Ju-Jutsu).

And then there's !!!!!!!!. And !!!!!!!!, by any other name, is still !!!!!!!! (See Choson Ninja for a sample).

[Prospero]

On the other hand, a bird by any other name is still arguably a bird, meaning that there are modern expressions of Ninjutsu that may be only remotely related to the traditional forms of the art, but remain true to the essence of the art.

I have yet to see an example.

[Kagemaru]

I have yet to see an example.

Keep Looking:look:!!

[ElfTengu]

Where? Here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UHZdJ3lUFc

Or here perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72tbio78jAQ&feature=PlayList&p=5E500F8F6C038FA6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26

[Kagemaru]

Wow. Those were old ones. Probably before you were born, hey? Pretty funny when we look back on them now. But to view a sound bite segment doesn't accurately display his ability. For example, I can tell that the segment of class used in the first video was one in which he was just explaining the application of a concept (whether empty handed or with various weapons). In his system, things were never broken down into small neat bite-sized portions like they are in the Kans. Instead, he would give you a whole concept and then let you disect it yourself in practice. By the time you get it, you are able to apply it universally, and then you own it. It certainly is a different approach than what we do here, but very effective.

I have another video which I like better, but I can't post it here right now. I will do it soon.

Cheerio.

[Prospero]

Wow. Those were old ones. Probably before you were born, hey?

Even though I was not the one to post it, I can say that it is not older than me by a longshot.

And I can also say that nothing he showed in the clip I saw was close to the principles I have seen for authentic ninjutsu. If you want to convince others, maybe you should provide proof that he does something we would agree is close to what you can find in Japan labeled as ninjutsu instead of subtly insulting folks like Elftengu.

Yeah, I said it. You are insulting others. That is the facts. No one has insulted you but you are now insulting others instead of being able to defend Duncan.

[Kagemaru]

Even though I was not the one to post it, I can say that it is not older than me by a longshot.

Wasn't talking to you, bro.


And I can also say that nothing he showed in the clip I saw was close to the principles I have seen for authentic ninjutsu. If you want to convince others, maybe you should provide proof that he does something we would agree is close to what you can find in Japan labeled as ninjutsu instead of subtly insulting folks like Elftengu.

There are conceptual similarities, even if the application is vastly different. I currently train in a Kan, and I can tell you that some of the things I learned from Duncan were definitely related, at least conceptually, to what is taught traditionally. That being said, Duncans art it a modern one NOT Japanese Koryu. It is what it is. If you really want to see how effective (or ineffective) it is, then I suggest you try it. Go to a seminar, he holds them all the time. Then come back and tell us about it. I am sure everyone would like to here from someone who has actually done it, instead of people sitting on the sidelines and criticizing. There is always that one guy sitting ring side talking about what he "Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda" done. You know the guy, the one who is always like " Mike Tyson ain't so tough". Yeah Ok, let's see you take a punch then.


And I can also say that nothing he showed in the clip I saw was close to the principles I have seen for authentic ninjutsu. If you want to convince others, maybe you should provide proof that he does something we would agree is close to what you can find in Japan labeled as ninjutsu instead of subtly insulting folks like Elftengu.

Is it an insult to say a person is young? If so, please feel free to insult me in this manner as much as possible.

Look man, at the end of the day it really doesn't matter who Duncans teachers were. If people dig what he is doing and can extract value, then so be it. You don't have a Heaven or a Hell for anyone so stop judging. The man has been around longer than most of you, and he is still active, so if you really have a problem then go see him and challenge his authenticty face to face, not on some bullitin board. Let's be men about it. You know, that is one thing about the martial arts that Duncan used to talk about. The caliber of men in those days as compared to now. In those days, if there was alll of this doubt about a persons legitimacy or ability it would have been solved once and for all already, because someone would have went to Duncans dojo and challenged him publicly, and the results would have been made public as well. If Duncan was found to be a fraud, he would simply have no choice but to fold up shop.

So if any of you real Ninja's out there are so sure that what he is doing is nonsense, then it should be easy to defeat him (or one of his students) in a match covering any one of several aspects of Ninjutsu, with your superior Koryu ninjutsu. It would be a final solution to this debate, once and for all.

I am sure he would be up for that. It could be video taped and posted on You Tube for all to see. Wouldn't that be great? So who will be first? How about you Elf Tengu? Or you Mr. Prospero? You are of the contemporary age with Duncan so it should be a pretty even match. I will be in NY in November and I can probably arrange it. What do you say? Since you guys like to prove everything, now is the time to step up and PROVE ONCE AND FOR ALL that your Koryu Ninjutsu is far superior to the crap that Duncan is peddling as Ninjutsu. Time to Man up!

So who's first?

[Kagemaru]

Where? Here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UHZdJ3lUFc

Or here perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72tbio78jAQ&feature=PlayList&p=5E500F8F6C038FA6&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26

Here is the clip I promised. I think it expresses what he does pretty well. Now, before anyone says that the moves look rehearsed, remember that we also practice patterns in the kan. Kata is fundamental in any martial art. What you'll see are demonstrations, but the classes were done with the same intensity. Notice the use of live weapons, and taking ukemi and performing kaiten-nage with no mats. The best way to learn how to apply a break fall in a real life situation is to actually do it, so advance classes trained on hardwood floors (like Karate). Mats were for beginners.

Anyway, enjoy.:smilejapa

Way of the Wind American koga Ryu Ninjutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxtRdZQ6H30)

[Chris Parker]

My issues with the clip you posted have nothing to do with "rehearsed" techniques, but with the fact that it is in no way conclusive in the way you want it to be. To begin with, it starts by stating that Duncan was "acknowledged in public as the Father of American Ninjitsu", but it seems that his invitation was not based on expert opinions of him, rather by his reputation at the time (largely from himself, I would say) and the way he was promoting himself. If the commentator cannot even pronounce ninjutsu correctly, I'm going to lower my estimations of their ability to spot an "expert", and go to the conclusion that they were simply reading a prepared bio. Not in any way conclusive.

The various magazines only show the way that Duncan was promoting himself. The shot with the "Ninja" weapons, as early as the laet 60's? Great! But few were "ninja" weapons, the shuriken were commonly known, and far from exclusive to ninja, the bow is nothing like a Japanese bow, the sai are karate weapons and nothing to do with the ninja at all. Not good for any argument that Duncan is authentic in terms of ninjutsu (which I believe is the topic of this thread, not if what he does works. Might help to keep those ideas separate).

Use of live weapons and ukemi on wooden floors? Great again, but that only shows that Duncan uses live weapons and practices on wooden floors! Nothing to show any historical authenticity, many classical schools have very authentic leather covered bamboo shinai (dating from the 17th Century), so use of live weapons isn't proving anything either.

So really, Tony, what did that clip prove other than the fact that you can source clips of his claims? All the movements are decent (not brilliant) Aikido and Hakko Ryu stuff, I see no evidence of anything Ninjutsu-related, most weapons are karate-based or hollywood-style, there is no semblance of Katori Shinto Ryu (another mentioned in the list of Koga Ninjutsu Ryu Duncan has supposedly "mastered", and I'm leaving alone the fact that Katori Shinto Ryu wasn't even from the Koga/Kohka region...) at all either.

This thread is on "Defining Ninjutsu", so that must by necessity include origins. As Ninjutsu is strictly a Japanese convention, if a person claiming to teach Ninjutsu cannot trace themselves back to historical systems recognised as Ninjutsu in Japan, or cannot, or will not, realistically back up any such claims, then we must conclude that the use of the name Ninjutsu is not applicable, and is therefore fraudulant to use. And claiming that Duncan never claimed to be teaching the historical system, but a "modern American" version is saying that it is not, and cannot be Ninjutsu, as well as contradicting your own clip in which he names a number of systems that I can find no record of (Nindai Ryu? Naha Ryu? I know of Naha-te in Karate circles, but what on earth is Naha Ryu?), and has never been able to back up any claims involving Draeger or Seiko. Sorry, not buying it.

[Prospero]

There are conceptual similarities, even if the application is vastly different.

You mean they both use fists?

And I rather suspect that Duncan does a lot of reading of Stephen Hayes. That makes what he does a rather pale imitation IMO. I see nothing he does that is any closer to Togakure ryu than aikido is.


Look man, at the end of the day it really doesn't matter who Duncans teachers were.

It does if you want to treat him as a man of his word. If he claims something that he knows is false, then he is not worth training with.

Have you gone to train with Ashida Kim? You are quick to label him a fraud, but are saying that we can't call Duncan a fraud unless we go see him. So when you go train with Ashida Kim you will at least be consistent.

[Kagemaru]

Hi Chris,


but it seems that his invitation was not based on expert opinions of him, rather by his reputation at the time (largely from himself, I would say) and the way he was promoting himself.

How do you know this for sure,Chris? How can you say that his invitation was not based on expert opinion of him, or that his reputation came largely from self promotion? Can you prove that for a fact? See this is what I mean by characterizations and conjecture. What has been proven that he was (and still is) held in high regard by many of America's finest martial artist of that era. The event at Madison Square Garden was the biggest of it's kind, and if Duncan wasn't respected he would not have been there, period.


The various magazines only show the way that Duncan was promoting himself. The shot with the "Ninja" weapons, as early as the laet 60's? Great! But few were "ninja" weapons, the shuriken were commonly known, and far from exclusive to ninja, the bow is nothing like a Japanese bow, the sai are karate weapons and nothing to do with the ninja at all. Not good for any argument that Duncan is authentic in terms of ninjutsu (which I believe is the topic of this thread, not if what he does works. Might help to keep those ideas separate).

Well, by now I think it is obvious that the thread may have gotten sidetracked by those who enjoy disparaging a person who has been in the martial arts world longer then most of them have been alive. Regarding the weapons displayed, as I have said here numerous times, his approach to Ninjutsu was a PRACTICAL one, in which he views weapons as mere extensions of the empty hand. Therefore, his students were taught how to use a variety of weapons, including those of kobudo. And so what if the bow is not a traditional Japanese bow? This is not kyudo. A bow is, at the end of the day, a bow. His emphasis has always been on practical application, so one should be able to perform shuriken jutsu as effectively with a pair of needle nose pliers as one would with bo-shuriken.


Use of live weapons and ukemi on wooden floors? Great again, but that only shows that Duncan uses live weapons and practices on wooden floors! Nothing to show any historical authenticity, many classical schools have very authentic leather covered bamboo shinai (dating from the 17th Century), so use of live weapons isn't proving anything either.

Live weapons means real steel Manriki, real bladed weapons, and the very real possibility of death during training. It is very hard to kill someone with a fukuro-shinai, so I don't think it is quite the same. My point in stating this is to emphasize the REALISM of the training, and why it was so effective in real encounters, not just patterns that only work in the dojo environment. Like I said, taking Ukemi on the concrete is VERY different from taking it on a mat, and if you have never experienced what those differences (and how to compensate) are then your are at a real disadvantage.


So really, Tony, what did that clip prove other than the fact that you can source clips of his claims? All the movements are decent (not brilliant) Aikido and Hakko Ryu stuff, I see no evidence of anything Ninjutsu-related, most weapons are karate-based or hollywood-style, there is no semblance of Katori Shinto Ryu (another mentioned in the list of Koga Ninjutsu Ryu Duncan has supposedly "mastered", and I'm leaving alone the fact that Katori Shinto Ryu wasn't even from the Koga/Kohka region...) at all either.

Sorry, I did not see any Hollywood style weapons in the clip. And from what I heard in the interview, he said quite clearly that he is of the Philosophies of the Koga Ryu traditons, and stated that there are various of them that he has studied. He did not say that he has Menkyo Kaiden in any of them, simply that he has studied them and applied them to what he is doing. Oh, and by the way, if all Ninjutsu originated in the Iga and Koga region then Katori Shinto Ryu most likely was related to those Ryu ha, in philosophy if not application.



This thread is on "Defining Ninjutsu", so that must by necessity include origins. As Ninjutsu is strictly a Japanese convention, if a person claiming to teach Ninjutsu cannot trace themselves back to historical systems recognised as Ninjutsu in Japan, or cannot, or will not, realistically back up any such claims, then we must conclude that the use of the name Ninjutsu is not applicable, and is therefore fraudulant to use. And claiming that Duncan never claimed to be teaching the historical system, but a "modern American" version is saying that it is not, and cannot be Ninjutsu, as well as contradicting your own clip in which he names a number of systems that I can find no record of (Nindai Ryu? Naha Ryu? I know of Naha-te in Karate circles, but what on earth is Naha Ryu?), and has never been able to back up any claims involving Draeger or Seiko. Sorry, not buying it.

Actually Chris, I am not selling anything. Defining Ninjutsu is exactly what this is about. Ninjutsu is a generic term, and can cover a broad base. There is a difference, once again, between classic Japanese Ninjutsu and Modern American Ninjutsu, but they share a common ancestry, however remote.

It is not unnatural to see these cross cultural exchanges in society, and I have cited many examples, which many people have conveniently over looked. Here is another analogy. Hip Hop as a culture started in New York. In the beginning there were only a few DJ's and artist that defined the genre and the culture, and who were the catalyst for later DJ's and artists. Then it began to spread nationwide, and one could hear arguments on the validity of say New York Hip Hop versus California Hip Hop, with aficionados on each side. Now, Hip Hop is an international youth culture and music genre. I see young Japanese DJ's who say they are New York Style Hip Hop or California style Hip Hop Dj's, but in the end what I see is Japanese Hip Hop that was inspired by New York or Californian music style. But it is all still Hip Hop, and what would I look like running up to some well known Japanese DJ who has been at his craft for 30 or 40 years and asking him to prove where he learned to DJ from if he says's he is a New York style DJ?

In the end, I still say that Ninjutsu, in it's generic sense, can be applied to various forms of modern combat systems that have a distant relationship to, and emphasis on, the philosophies and tactics that are inherent to the art, and that it is different and should not be confused with Koryu Ninjutsu/ Ninpo from Japan, as it has been taught in Japan. That is all I am saying.

[Prospero]

The event at Madison Square Garden was the biggest of it's kind, and if Duncan wasn't respected he would not have been there, period.

Don't they hold the circus there as well? Seems appropriate.

And unfortunately, there is a lot of marketing and connection games going on. Some people seem to support Duncan because he is black and is a role model for others. That actor who is having trouble with the IRS falls into that category. I suspect others. Those that seem to accuse others of being motivated by racism when they question Duncan seem to be racist in my eyes.

What I can say of his bit there was that it was funny to me, with all my experience with the real art.

Duncan may have been studying martial arts longer than I have been alive, but I have been studying authentic ninjutsu longer than he.

Or for you, Kagemaru. For all of your talk of trying to say that we should respect Duncan because he was around longer than us, you won't say that you should bow to my greater experience when I say that in none of the clips Duncan seems competent in any form of ninjutsu principle. Flexible set of standards there.

[Kagemaru]

Don't they hold the circus there as well? Seems appropriate.

Yes, they do. and the Knicks games, and concerts too. Your point?


And unfortunately, there is a lot of marketing and connection games going on. Some people seem to support Duncan because he is black and is a role model for others. That actor who is having trouble with the IRS falls into that category. I suspect others. Those that seem to accuse others of being motivated by racism when they question Duncan seem to be racist in my eyes.

Did you ever hear me once say anything about the mans race? Why do you guys always try to bring in the racial issue to this discussion? If anything makes you seem motivated by racism, it would be that.


Duncan may have been studying martial arts longer than I have been alive, but I have been studying authentic ninjutsu longer than he.


Right. So what? Does that make you better or more capable than him? I would rather have a mutt that can run, hunt, and swim than a pedigree that does nothing but lay around the house. As I said, since your "PURE" ninjutsu is obviously better than the circus rubbish Duncan portrays, and you have been at it longer, you are in a good position to be the one to go to Duncans dojo and challenge his claims. Shall I arrange it?


Or for you, Kagemaru. For all of your talk of trying to say that we should respect Duncan because he was around longer than us, you won't say that you should bow to my greater experience when I say that in none of the clips Duncan seems competent in any form of ninjutsu principle. Flexible set of standards there.

Now thats rich!! Bow to your greater experience? Dude, who are you? And more importantly, do you know me?

[Prospero]

Did you ever hear me once say anything about the mans race? Why do you guys always try to bring in the racial issue to this discussion? If anything makes you seem motivated by racism, it would be that.

Actually, you did accuse Elftengu of having a racial thing with Duncan.

And then there is the fact that you are quite willing to call white folks like Christina Jacobs and Bryce Dallas fakes because they have no proof to even having a teacher and yet you do not hold Duncan to the same standard.

May I ask what color skin you have? Is it closer to Duncan's shade than Christina Jacobs'?

[Kagemaru]

Actually, you did accuse Elftengu of having a racial thing with Duncan.

When?


And then there is the fact that you are quite willing to call white folks like Christina Jacobs and Bryce Dallas fakes because they have no proof to even having a teacher and yet you do not hold Duncan to the same standard.

Who? I don't even know those people. You must have me confused with someone else.


May I ask what color skin you have? Is it closer to Duncan's shade than Christina Jacobs'?

What difference does it make?

[Prospero]

When?

Post #62 on this page.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43939&page=5




Who? I don't even know those people. You must have me confused with someone else.

But your first post in the thread I linked to above said that Duncan and his student should not be listed with people like Jacobs and Bryce.




What difference does it make?

Ah, being evasive. You have answered my question much better than if you had come out and said you were african american.

So we have someone who accuses another of bringing up race as a freudian slip, but who himself is not applying the same standards to Duncan that he does to people like Jacobs and Bryce.

[Kagemaru]

Post #62 on this page.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthre...t=43939&page=5



Jon:People like winddemon(mentioned by Don I think) jump out of the woodwork and say we dont like him, because he's black...no I dont like him because he's a liar, and teaches stuff that could get you killed.
oh and have a lovely fall day.


Me: I never brought anything up about race in this dialogue, so it must be in your sub-concious for you to inject that into this discussion. A "Fraudian" slip of sorts?

You need to learn how to read,sir. My response was to Jon, not Elf Tengu. And it was in response to the fact that he, like you, was trying to inject race into this subject. As you can see, my response to him was the same as it was to you.


But your first post in the thread I linked to above said that Duncan and his student should not be listed with people like Jacobs and Bryce.

Oh Ok. So Jacobs and Bryce are Ashida Kim and Choson Ninja. I had no idea. Is Ashida Kim white? I didn't know that. He never makes any public appearances so I have never seen him. Bryce is Korean-American. I have lived and worked in Seoul, and my last girl friend was Korean. I am married to a Japanese woman and I live in Japan. How could I possibly be racist? My problem with him is not that he is teaching a modernized form of Ninjutsu, it's that he doesn't have any real world experience to test his theories and if you want to start your own style you definitely need to have that.

Anyway, when will you be in Japan (or NY) next? That is really all I want to know from you. Other than that it's just you going around in circles and I am far to busy for that. If you can't answer that questions then I am going to suggest that the mods lock this thread down because it isn't going anywhere. You have your opinion and you are entitled to it.

[Prospero]

You need to learn how to read,sir. My response was to Jon, not Elf Tengu.

Ok, but the point is you were the first to accuse another of racism.


How could I possibly be racist?

By doing what you are, having one standard for someone with your own skin color and a harsher one for those that are not.

[Kagemaru]

Ok, but the point is you were the first to accuse another of racism.



By doing what you are, having one standard for someone with your own skin color and a harsher one for those that are not.

Why bring in race altogether? That's my point. I didn't even know the race of Ashida Kim, and I've clearly stated mt grievances about Choson. Neither have to do with race.

In anycase, it's been nice sparring with you. I've enjoyed it. Thanks for playing:smilejapa.

[Prospero]

Why bring in race altogether?

So why did you accuse Job of having a freudian slip about the matter?

And the fact remains, you have one standard for someone with your own skin color than you do for people like Bryce Dallas.

[Chris Parker]

Just because I feel any question asked deserves an answer...


Hi Chris,



How do you know this for sure,Chris? How can you say that his invitation was not based on expert opinion of him, or that his reputation came largely from self promotion? Can you prove that for a fact? See this is what I mean by characterizations and conjecture. What has been proven that he was (and still is) held in high regard by many of America's finest martial artist of that era. The event at Madison Square Garden was the biggest of it's kind, and if Duncan wasn't respected he would not have been there, period.

What is held at Madison Square Garden is at the discretion of whoever hires the Garden. And frankly there is little understanding of martial arts in the public mind, let alone something as misunderstood as classical Japanese martial arts, whether they be Ninjutsu, Koryu, or otherwise. Frankly, if the qualification was legitimacy of transmission to Duncan, and experts in the field were really involved, he wouldn't have been there. However, if those putting forth the invites were enthusiastic martial artists themselves (the most common presenters of such events), but not knowledgable in Ninjutsu, then their only source would have been popular media, and that is the way that Duncan was promoting himself. So him being there is no real endorsement to my mind.

Well, by now I think it is obvious that the thread may have gotten sidetracked by those who enjoy disparaging a person who has been in the martial arts world longer then most of them have been alive. Regarding the weapons displayed, as I have said here numerous times, his approach to Ninjutsu was a PRACTICAL one, in which he views weapons as mere extensions of the empty hand. Therefore, his students were taught how to use a variety of weapons, including those of kobudo. And so what if the bow is not a traditional Japanese bow? This is not kyudo. A bow is, at the end of the day, a bow. His emphasis has always been on practical application, so one should be able to perform shuriken jutsu as effectively with a pair of needle nose pliers as one would with bo-shuriken.

So his "practical" approach involves using rather awkward old weapons that have no place in modern violence? Then he is teaching a Japanese art (Ninjutsu is Japanese, end of story. Sorry, but that is it), but his weaponry is not Japanese, rather either Okinawan or some completely non-Japanese bow? And your argument is that he is not teaching Kyudo? Really, if the argument is that his choice of weapons is based on practicallity, we should see something closer to Krav Maga, the rest of his mess of tools have no place there. By extension, a purely bogus group here in Australia (Kyushin Ryu Ninjutsu, also known as Kevin Hawthorne Ninja Schools - I wish I could make up a stupider name for a fake group, but I don't know that it is possible!) had an article written about themselves in a very popular Martial Arts magzine here in the early 90's, so having the article there could also be percieved as endorsement the same way your Madison Square Garden show could. But in the article, they talk about the weapons they teach, and list "various classical Ninja weapons, including three sectional stalls, sai, tonfa, nunchucks, karma, and a variety of swords, including the classic straight ninjato" (the spellings are as written in the original article, btw). They then go on to say that they also teach some more "exotic weapons, including Kusari Gama, Kyoketsu Shoge, Shuko hand claws, and Shuriken throwing stars". Very obviously bogus for many reasons, but if you were unaware of those, the fact that their main weapon syllabus are karate and chinese weapons, with the only ninjutsu-related ones added as an afterthought are proof enough. So Duncans non-use of Japanese weapons, let alone ones associated with Ninjutsu is quite a relevant point, I feel.

Live weapons means real steel Manriki, real bladed weapons, and the very real possibility of death during training. It is very hard to kill someone with a fukuro-shinai, so I don't think it is quite the same. My point in stating this is to emphasize the REALISM of the training, and why it was so effective in real encounters, not just patterns that only work in the dojo environment. Like I said, taking Ukemi on the concrete is VERY different from taking it on a mat, and if you have never experienced what those differences (and how to compensate) are then your are at a real disadvantage.

Dude, I use live blades, real chains, hardwood staffs, and more, but for safety in class I use safer weapons. I do take some seniors through stuff with the real thing every now and then, I feel the mindset is quite valuable. But my point was not that training with real weapons is not good, it is that it is not in any way proof of validity. Safe training equipment is still very traditional, and again, the focus on realism is shown through the use of a real archaic weapon? That's realistic in today's world? Hmm. Oh, and I do train Ukemi on all manner of surfaces, including wood, and concrete. But that was my own personal kick, and I don't require it of my students, but so you know, I'm well aware of the experience, and don't recommend it until you've gotten a fair amount of experience on mats.

Sorry, I did not see any Hollywood style weapons in the clip. And from what I heard in the interview, he said quite clearly that he is of the Philosophies of the Koga Ryu traditons, and stated that there are various of them that he has studied. He did not say that he has Menkyo Kaiden in any of them, simply that he has studied them and applied them to what he is doing. Oh, and by the way, if all Ninjutsu originated in the Iga and Koga region then Katori Shinto Ryu most likely was related to those Ryu ha, in philosophy if not application.

So he read some books? And, no,the TSKSR is not related to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu, and is not a Ninjutsu school. It is a Koryu system which includes a ninjutsu section to it's curriculum, which is basically a section on espionage, rather than Ninjutsu from a technical standpoint. Not Koga Ryu, no link to Koga Ryu for Duncan.


Actually Chris, I am not selling anything. Defining Ninjutsu is exactly what this is about. Ninjutsu is a generic term, and can cover a broad base. There is a difference, once again, between classic Japanese Ninjutsu and Modern American Ninjutsu, but they share a common ancestry, however remote.

Unfortunately, Ninjutsu is not a generic term, it is a specific term the same way that Karate is a specific term. Martial arts would be the generic term. And Ninjutsu is a historical system, not a modern one. Any new system cannot by definition be Ninjutsu. And that is the crux of what we are dealing with here. Toshindo is not Ninjutsu, but when Hayes teaches Togakure Ryu specific stuff, that is. Get the distinction?

It is not unnatural to see these cross cultural exchanges in society, and I have cited many examples, which many people have conveniently over looked. Here is another analogy. Hip Hop as a culture started in New York. In the beginning there were only a few DJ's and artist that defined the genre and the culture, and who were the catalyst for later DJ's and artists. Then it began to spread nationwide, and one could hear arguments on the validity of say New York Hip Hop versus California Hip Hop, with aficionados on each side. Now, Hip Hop is an international youth culture and music genre. I see young Japanese DJ's who say they are New York Style Hip Hop or California style Hip Hop Dj's, but in the end what I see is Japanese Hip Hop that was inspired by New York or Californian music style. But it is all still Hip Hop, and what would I look like running up to some well known Japanese DJ who has been at his craft for 30 or 40 years and asking him to prove where he learned to DJ from if he says's he is a New York style DJ?

Cool analogy. Flawed, though. You are talking about a contemporary musical expression, and that is very different to a philosophical and martial system of knowledge which came out of Japan centuries ago. By the way, Ninjutsu is simply put the art, tactics, and methodologies of those known as Ninja, and as there are no Ninja left (in the strict sense), there can be no new Ninjutsu, regardless of location. To go with your musical analogy, though, Ninjutsu is better thought of not as Hip Hop, but as Baroque Music. Baroque music was developed and created in Europe from roughly 1600 to 1750, today you can create music that is Baroque-inspired, but you cannot create Baroque music by definition.

In the end, I still say that Ninjutsu, in it's generic sense, can be applied to various forms of modern combat systems that have a distant relationship to, and emphasis on, the philosophies and tactics that are inherent to the art, and that it is different and should not be confused with Koryu Ninjutsu/ Ninpo from Japan, as it has been taught in Japan. That is all I am saying.

And that is where we disagree. We say that Ninjutsu is found in the arts historically known as Ninjutsu, you are saying that if it's similar enough, that's good enough. Nope, doesn't quite work that way. Again, it's Baroque versus Baroque-inspired. You simply cannot say that you are doing something that is close to what you believe the Ninja arts were, so you are doing Ninjutsu. Just doesn't work.

[Kagemaru]

Hi Chris,

I was pretty much done with this, however I am impressed with the fact that you took the time to offer a logical, well thought out, well presented rebuttal. I respect your views on what you have stated, but please allow me to retort.


How do you know this for sure,Chris? How can you say that his invitation was not based on expert opinion of him, or that his reputation came largely from self promotion? Can you prove that for a fact? See this is what I mean by characterizations and conjecture. What has been proven that he was (and still is) held in high regard by many of America's finest martial artist of that era. The event at Madison Square Garden was the biggest of it's kind, and if Duncan wasn't respected he would not have been there, period.

What is held at Madison Square Garden is at the discretion of whoever hires the Garden. And frankly there is little understanding of martial arts in the public mind, let alone something as misunderstood as classical Japanese martial arts, whether they be Ninjutsu, Koryu, or otherwise. Frankly, if the qualification was legitimacy of transmission to Duncan, and experts in the field were really involved, he wouldn't have been there. However, if those putting forth the invites were enthusiastic martial artists themselves (the most common presenters of such events), but not knowledgable in Ninjutsu, then their only source would have been popular media, and that is the way that Duncan was promoting himself. So him being there is no real endorsement to my mind.

Actually, the promoter and organizer of these events was Aaron Banks. Google his name and you will see that he is not a neophyte to the world of Asian Martial arts. So I think it is unrealistic to think that he would be that naive. Believe me, there are hundreds of martial artist who would love to have been there. It was not open to anyone, but was upon invite only.


Well, by now I think it is obvious that the thread may have gotten sidetracked by those who enjoy disparaging a person who has been in the martial arts world longer then most of them have been alive. Regarding the weapons displayed, as I have said here numerous times, his approach to Ninjutsu was a PRACTICAL one, in which he views weapons as mere extensions of the empty hand. Therefore, his students were taught how to use a variety of weapons, including those of kobudo. And so what if the bow is not a traditional Japanese bow? This is not kyudo. A bow is, at the end of the day, a bow. His emphasis has always been on practical application, so one should be able to perform shuriken jutsu as effectively with a pair of needle nose pliers as one would with bo-shuriken.

So his "practical" approach involves using rather awkward old weapons that have no place in modern violence? Then he is teaching a Japanese art (Ninjutsu is Japanese, end of story. Sorry, but that is it), but his weaponry is not Japanese, rather either Okinawan or some completely non-Japanese bow? And your argument is that he is not teaching Kyudo? Really, if the argument is that his choice of weapons is based on practicallity, we should see something closer to Krav Maga, the rest of his mess of tools have no place there. . So Duncans non-use of Japanese weapons, let alone ones associated with Ninjutsu is quite a relevant point, I feel.

Practicality in terms of usage. In this case practicality means hands on or real world / real time usage. First, let me start by saying that many weapons, philosophies, and tactics associated with Ninjutsu originally came from China. Likewise, many of the weapons of Okinawan Kobudo are Chinese in origin. So having an understanding of these weapons and how to apply them within the context of a given art (in this case his American Koga Ryu Ninjutsu system) is a natural progression. In fact, I am sure that if the ancient Ninja had access to compound bows instead of the recurves they used, they would have used them. So, in his system even if a person has never had experience with a particular weapon, he should be able to work with it. Moreover, a practitioner or Ninjutsu should be familiar in the use of all weapons possible. Back in the days they had only to worry about the Japanese canon of weaponry, but these days we see weapons from many other systems, so we should be familiar with as many as possible. I am inclined to agree with this philosophy.


Live weapons means real steel Manriki, real bladed weapons, and the very real possibility of death during training. It is very hard to kill someone with a fukuro-shinai, so I don't think it is quite the same. My point in stating this is to emphasize the REALISM of the training, and why it was so effective in real encounters, not just patterns that only work in the dojo environment. Like I said, taking Ukemi on the concrete is VERY different from taking it on a mat, and if you have never experienced what those differences (and how to compensate) are then your are at a real disadvantage.

Dude, I use live blades, real chains, hardwood staffs, and more, but for safety in class I use safer weapons. I do take some seniors through stuff with the real thing every now and then, I feel the mindset is quite valuable. But my point was not that training with real weapons is not good, it is that it is not in any way proof of validity. Safe training equipment is still very traditional, and again, the focus on realism is shown through the use of a real archaic weapon? That's realistic in today's world? Hmm. Oh, and I do train Ukemi on all manner of surfaces, including wood, and concrete. But that was my own personal kick, and I don't require it of my students, but so you know, I'm well aware of the experience, and don't recommend it until you've gotten a fair amount of experience on mats.

First, I am glad you do realistic training. Many do not. My point in stating this was in response to Prospero saying that a Fukuro-Shinai is a live weapon. Of course, safety is important especially in the early stages, and even as an advance practitioner. So this, taken as a sound bite, does not mean anything or prove anything. Therefore, it needs to be viewed in total context to what was said.



Sorry, I did not see any Hollywood style weapons in the clip. And from what I heard in the interview, he said quite clearly that he is of the Philosophies of the Koga Ryu traditons, and stated that there are various of them that he has studied. He did not say that he has Menkyo Kaiden in any of them, simply that he has studied them and applied them to what he is doing. Oh, and by the way, if all Ninjutsu originated in the Iga and Koga region then Katori Shinto Ryu most likely was related to those Ryu ha, in philosophy if not application.

So he read some books? And, no,the TSKSR is not related to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu, and is not a Ninjutsu school. It is a Koryu system which includes a ninjutsu section to it's curriculum, which is basically a section on espionage, rather than Ninjutsu from a technical standpoint. Not Koga Ryu, no link to Koga Ryu for Duncan.

Funny, Stephen Hayes went to Duncan first to be a student before he went to Japan to train with Hatsumi. He was turned down because Duncan was only teaching what was then called Shinobi-no-jutsu to law enforcement and military personnel at that time.


Actually Chris, I am not selling anything. Defining Ninjutsu is exactly what this is about. Ninjutsu is a generic term, and can cover a broad base. There is a difference, once again, between classic Japanese Ninjutsu and Modern American Ninjutsu, but they share a common ancestry, however remote.

Unfortunately, Ninjutsu is not a generic term, it is a specific term the same way that Karate is a specific term. Martial arts would be the generic term. And Ninjutsu is a historical system, not a modern one. Any new system cannot by definition be Ninjutsu. And that is the crux of what we are dealing with here. Toshindo is not Ninjutsu, but when Hayes teaches Togakure Ryu specific stuff, that is. Get the distinction?

I think I can sum up the rest in one go here. Actually, if you understand the Japanese language outside of the martial arts, the word NIN has many meanings, including patience, perseverance, totality, ect. Jutsu is a suffix that just means skills. So NIN-Jutsu in literal meaning IS a generic term. And by the way, Karate IS a generic term also! It just means Open Hand (or China Hand if read in it's original form). So you have many types of Karate (Isshin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Shotokan, Kyokushinkai-Ryu) as well as other forms that are accepted as Karate from other countries (for example, Tae Kwon Do is uniformally accepted in Japan as Korean Karate), and you have many other forms of American Karate.

I　think many people feel a sense of pride in their art, and as such want to protect it or distinguish it from other arts out there. I can understand that. But you can't stop the wheel, meaning you can't stop or hold back the progress of knowledge, because knowledge is like water and will eventually seep to every level. So even if Duncan did not learn what he learned in a manner that YOU agree with, the important thing for him is that he knows it (in theory), can demonstrate it, and can apply it in real life. And in the end, he has the right to call it American Koga Ryu Ninjutsu if he wants to. You don't have to like it, and if you don't then just keep doing what you like and feel comfortable with. But it is not fair and is disrespectful to the man to just discount all of his years, and blood sweat and tears, that he has contributed to the martial arts,and to his students.

One last analogy. Let's take a guy who is an herbalist from the Amazon rainforest. To his people he is a doctor, and a great one at that. But he never went to school, and cannot read or write. He learned all he knows not from the halls of academia, but from fireside chats with other herbalist, and from decades of practice and self study. Now, to us in the West we may feel that since he didn't take a Western approach to medicine, he cannot really be a doctor. After all, he did not go through years med school, and more importantly, he did not pay into the system that will allow him to practice medicine. Yet, he may be down in the Amazon curing AIDS with his herbs. Yet people will still say he is a crackpot "witch doctor", especially the people who went the traditional route and want to feel a sense of privilege. They will be the first and the loudest to denounce him. I see the same thing happening with Ninjutsu. Is it possible that there are crackpot doctors out there posing as herbalist? Absolutely. Are there frauds? Yes. Is every herbalist a fraud? NO! Are some herbalist doctors (even without the PH.D)? Yes! Are there some frauds out there posing as Ninjutsu practictioners? Yes. Is every Ninjutsu practictioner outside of the kans a lying fraud? Not necessarily.

In anycase, I respect your views Chris, and I thank you for a very stimulating dialogue. Thank you for sharing your views.

[Chris Parker]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for that. I'll try to keep this quick, just throwing up a few optional thoughts.

Aaron Banks, certainly an experienced individual, but my concern is that the martial arts are a specialty field of study, just because someone is experienced in (in this case) Goju Ryu Karate, that does not make them able to recognise how authentic a Ninjutsu practitioner is. By the same token, a Ninjutsu guy is not really an expert on anything but Ninjutsu, so I would take their opinions of Karate performances with a grain of salt. The Skosses, for example, are considered experts in the field of Japanese Koryu, but I wouldn't go to them for CMA advice (nor would I go to myself, for that matter!). So while Mr Banks certainly is deserving of respect (from what I could find), that doesn't make him expert in my estimation in this regard.

As to the tactics, strategies, and weapons coming from China, well yes and no. China was considered the source of the majority of Japan's culture, it formed the basis for their court structure, their education system, even their written language. And early on in history, that included the weaponry, as many early period swords were similar in design to the Chinese. But by the time we are talking about (Late Heian onwards), Japan was very unique in regard to the majority of it's weaponry and military aspects (armour, no shields for example). So no, the weapons were rarely brought from China. The only one I can think of being said to have been brought directly from China is the Bisento (based on the Kwan Dao). The bow was unique to Japan, as was the style of sword used. But with all of that said, I agree that ideally you should be able to adapt and use anything that you happen to come across. I just don't understand why a "real legitimate" Ninjutsu system would be using Chinese weapons, rather than just adapting to the common weapons of the day (knife, club, gun etc).

Ha, yeah, a fukuro shinai is by definition a training weapon, not a "real" one. 100% with you there. Not sure what the reference to Steve Hayes is there for, but for the record, that doesn't surprise me. But if we're dealing with Hayes' early explorations to find Ninjutsu which lead him to Hatsumi, then Duncan is just one of his stops. He also visited Yumio Nawa, teacher of the Masaki Ryu Manriki Gusari (and also listed as one fo Duncans systems), and often refered to as a Ninjutsu historian, however it is soon discovered that Nawa is not teaching Ninjutsu, despite his reputation. His seeking out of Duncan, therefore, is not again an endorsement of Duncan's validity.

With my refering to Ninjutsu and Karate as specific terms, I stand by that. They are specific in that they refer to specific arts with common histories, lineages and approaches. Those American Karate systems trace themselves back to Japanese and Okinawan systems, Tae Kwon Do can be traced back to Shotokan, making it a Karate system as it follows these rules. And this can happen with Karate as it is still a current, modern art. Ninjutsu, on the other hand, being the art (jutsu) of ninja (nin, you have already covered, ja/sha means person - yeah, I got the language thing) cannot have any "new" versions as there are no ninja to create them. These are more in line with the fact that we cannot create any new Koryu, as the specific requirements would not be met. What you can do, however, is take the knowledge from these older systems and create new methods based around newer needs. It just wouldn't be Ninjutsu (or Koryu) by definition. And if it's being created in a modern, western country, then it certainly isn't Koga Ryu.

For the record, I have no issue with Duncan's schools, methods, training, teaching etc, just with the label he is using. Although that is his decision, you must realise that naming something as Ninjutsu is going to raise hackles, especially with no evidence to back up any transmission of information from any source whatsoever. Personally, I feel that if Duncan just labeled his art as something else, or even refered to it as being based on the Aikido and Daito Ryu that I think is certainly documented, then there would not be such issues, and the legitimacy would not come up. But Ninjutsu? That's stretching things for most.

[Kagemaru]

Points very well presented Chris, and very well taken.

I'll meditate on that.

Thanks!

[Chris Parker]

Thank you, and thanks for helping me clarify what I categorise as Ninjutsu as well.

[Prospero]

My point in stating this was in response to Prospero saying that a Fukuro-Shinai is a live weapon.

Show me where I said that. I am assuming that you are trying to attack me because you can't debate any of the points I raise. If you can't point to where I said this, I will continue my assumption.



Funny, Stephen Hayes went to Duncan first to be a student before he went to Japan to train with Hatsumi. He was turned down because Duncan was only teaching what was then called Shinobi-no-jutsu to law enforcement and military personnel at that time.

This is something else you need to prove, but I bet you can't

I don't need to deal with any of your other points if this is the type of thing you are stooping to.

[ElfTengu]

Here is the clip I promised. I think it expresses what he does pretty well. Now, before anyone says that the moves look rehearsed, remember that we also practice patterns in the kan. Kata is fundamental in any martial art. What you'll see are demonstrations, but the classes were done with the same intensity. Notice the use of live weapons, and taking ukemi and performing kaiten-nage with no mats. The best way to learn how to apply a break fall in a real life situation is to actually do it, so advance classes trained on hardwood floors (like Karate). Mats were for beginners.

Anyway, enjoy.:smilejapa

Way of the Wind American koga Ryu Ninjutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxtRdZQ6H30)

I tried to 'enjoy' as you requested but sorry, I just can't. It's awful stuff vaguely reminiscent of generic gendai budo but far too flowery to be sengoku derived authentic ninjutsu and not exactly subtle.

And I've seen most of it before. And where was the intensity? I saw speed but no 'intensity' as such, just a bunch of very poor ukes whose only job was to freeze, flip over, and make someone else look good. They quite rightly criticise many Bujinkan clips for this kind of thing but this is far far worse.

A ninja would have every samurai in the district down on him if he made them all fly around around like that, and the twirling and gesticulating is just Yankee Doodle Dumbass antics which belong in cheesy movies about little kids and their moustachio'd martial grandpa.

And you don't have to be my best mate, who actually is one of my country's foremost psychologists, to see every possible element of body language associated with lying in the interview clips of Mr. Duncan.

These may well be showboating 'demo' clips and the Bujinkan certainly have our share of those on youtube as well, but where are all the actual clips of genuine everyday training like we have?

Oh yes, I forgot, there are many examples of the 'student's of Duncan and his cronies on youtube and they just go to prove that the further a lie gets from the truth the more obvious it becomes that they are based on an original untruth, because such clips are really really awful. I may try and find some prime examples if I have nothing better to do later today.

And for the record, there are no racists here, we hate BS from anyone of any colour.