A question related to “Legacies of the Sword”

[demakase]

Let me start off by saying what a wonderful book this is. I really enjoyed it.
There is however are part that perplexed me a little. At the bottom of page 91 to the top of page 92 Dr Friday touches briefly on a Kashima Shinryu technique called naori taichuken. When introducing this technique he states that it is used to reverse Onoha Itto-ryu’s “famous” ukenagashi technique (*I apologize, I do not have the book handy to quote the section word for word). I found this odd because if Onoha Itto-ryu is famous for any one technique it would certainly be kiriotoshi. I have not been studying Itto-ryu very long so I consulted my sempai, and we both agree that ukenagashi (especially as it is described in Dr Friday’s book) is not a prominent technique in Onoha Itto-ryu outside of the kodachi kata. Techniques likes surinagashi or even uketome are used frequently but I can only think of one particular kata in the 1st 50 that uses ukenagashi, and that is used to deflect an attack to the right mid-section and/or forearm, quite different from how it is described in the "Legacies of the Sword". Mizoguchiha Itto-ryu on the other hand uses ukenagshi extensively in its curriculum.
Of course I would love to hear from Dr Friday himself on this matter but if anyone has anything to contribute I would love to hear it. Or should I say read it….

Regards
Leiv

[Douglas Tong]

I can only think of one particular kata in the 1st 50 that uses ukenagashi, and that is used to deflect an attack to the right mid-section and/or forearm...


Kata #11: Wakigamae no Tsuke - Chuu Seigan

Deflect/redirect opponent's attempt to crush your head from "tsuke" position (locked swords, something like tsuba-zeriai) by pushing down on your sword from above.

;)

[Douglas Tong]

Kata #11: Wakigamae no Tsuke - Chuu Seigan

Deflect/redirect opponent's attempt to crush your head from "tsuke" position (locked swords, something like tsuba-zeriai) by pushing down on your sword from above.

;)


Tried to edit but 15 minute time limit passed and no administrator answered.
Anyway,

Kata #11 is Gedan no Tsuke - Chuu Seigan
(Kata #5 is called Wakigamae no Tsuke)
Apologies.

A type of uke nagashi also occurs in Kata #20: Sayuu no Harai.

[demakase]

Tried to edit but 15 minute time limit passed and no administrator answered.
Anyway,

Kata #11 is Gedan no Tsuke - Chuu Seigan
(Kata #5 is called Wakigamae no Tsuke)
Apologies.
No worries. I make the same mistake all the time.
This however is hardly anything close to ukenagashi. In gedannosuke chuu seigan the uchikata closes the distance between you. From gedan you seme the under side of his right wrist, and as soon as he reacts by covering you imediately take center, where you both end up in seigan. At which point you do ai-tsuki and force the uchikata backwards while you both try to maintain the center line by applying force to each others sword (on the shinogi however they are angled in slightly), much like in wakigamae no tuke. However in this kata instead of trying to force your sword down, the uchikata knocks it to the side so that it is no longer pointed at his throat. The you use that momentum to rotate it quickly into the raised position and strike all in one motion.
If one really wanted to get into semantics, then yes I suppose you could say it is a form of ukenagashi, but you have to admit it is a stretch. It's not a strike, it doesn't come from above, you do not block, nor does it require sliding along the opponents blade. It is a quick knock to regain control of the center.
Now that I have my book with me I can give the exact description as it was written:

"Uke-nagashi is a flowing block that parries the force of an opponent's attack and uses it to generate momentum for a counterstrike." So far, so good. However this is very broad and could emcompass many things. Also as I mentioned the technique in gedannotsuke chuu seigan is not a block.
"To perform it, a swordsman responds to a straight vertical attack to his forehead by rolling his hands upward to his left, raising his blade with the cutting edge up and the tip angled slightly downward to his right so that it protects his forhead."And there is the defined shape, which simply never happens outside of the kodachi set. *I omitted the rest of the explanation because I think most of us know how ukenagashi works, but consult the top of page 92 if you must see how the rest of the technique plays out.


A type of uke nagashi also occurs in Kata #20: Sayuu no Harai.
Yes, I was refering to saiyuu no harai when I wrote this in the first post:

...but I can only think of one particular kata in the 1st 50 that uses ukenagashi, and that is used to deflect an attack to the right mid-section and/or forearm...
Now I would certainly consider this to be ukenagashi but it is nowhere near the description in the book. It comes up from below, defending one's side, from mugamae. Also it would be hard to imagine naori taichuken as it is decribe, being used against this in the manner that it is employed in this particular kata.

[demakase]

Hmmm... can't edit for some reason. Forgive the spelling mistakes.

[Douglas Tong]

Now that I have my book with me I can give the exact description as it was written:

I omitted the rest of the explanation because I think most of us know how ukenagashi works, but consult the top of page 92 if you must see how the rest of the technique plays out.

Now I would certainly consider this to be ukenagashi but it is nowhere near the description in the book.


Hi again.
Just out of curiosity, which book are you referring to?
Thanks.

[Brian Owens]

...Just out of curiosity, which book are you referring to?

See thread title.

[demakase]

Hi again.
Just out of curiosity, which book are you referring to?
Thanks.
I'm sorry, I thought it was clear. The book is Karl Friday's "Legacies of the Sword". The section I am refering to is the bottom of page 91 to the top/mid-way of 92.

[Douglas Tong]

Ah yes, thank you. Sorry, I got lost in all the quotes and wasn't quite sure. But thank you for the clarification.
Another question if you don't mind: since it says your location is in Japan, would you happen to be studying Ono-ha Itto Ryu in Tokyo?
Thanks again.

[demakase]

No. Not in Tokyo.

[MoHa]

Liev,

"Ukenagashi" means to "parry, ward off" in normal Japanese discourse. In the Itto-ryu Gokui, by Sasamori Junzo, the term is used as a verb when describing the motions used in a waza, not the name of a particular technique. For example, in the Sayuu no harai waza of the Odachi kata, it says to "drop the sword tip into wakigamae and then ward off the opponent's sword (uke nagashi), then...". It is also used in this way when describing waza in the Kodachi kata. However, as you probably know, it is quite common for Japanese speakers to nominalize verbs.

There is no particular technique called, "Ukenagashi" that I am aware of for which Ono-ha Itto-ryu would be famous.

Also, there is no reference to ukenagashi in Gedan no Tsuke, Chuu Seigan, since the action is quite different.

So, it seems it is up to Dr Friday to shed some light on the reference in his book.

Mark Hague
Ono-ha Itto-ryu

[demakase]

Liev,

"Ukenagashi" means to "parry, ward off" in normal Japanese discourse. In the Itto-ryu Gokui, by Sasamori Junzo, the term is used as a verb when describing the motions used in a waza, not the name of a particular technique. For example, in the Sayuu no harai waza of the Odachi kata, it says to "drop the sword tip into wakigamae and then ward off the opponent's sword (uke nagashi), then...". It is also used in this way when describing waza in the Kodachi kata. However, as you probably know, it is quite common for Japanese speakers to nominalize verbs.
Hi Mark. Thank you for replying.

Thank you for taking the time to clarifying. I also own a copy of Itto-ryu Gokui that I have read/continue to read.


There is no particular technique called, "Ukenagashi" that I am aware of for which Ono-ha Itto-ryu would be famous.

Also, there is no reference to ukenagashi in Gedan no Tsuke, Chuu Seigan, since the action is quite different.
Again I am aware this, which is the source of my confusion. Douglas Tong was the one who referred to gedan-no-tsuke chuuseigan as having ukenagashi used in it. I contested that.


So, it seems it is up to Dr Friday to shed some light on the reference in his book.
Yes. I am hoping he will notice this thread and have time to comment. However it is nice to have some input from another practitioner.

[Douglas Tong]

Hi Mark:

It's Doug from Canada. Long time, no see. I came last summer.

Thanks once again for your help at Sasamori Sensei's dojo. It had been a decade since I was back in his dojo and many things had changed. Anyways, it was good to talk to you.

I did interview Sensei. Here it is:
http://ejmas.com/tin/2008tin/tinart_tong_0808.html
http://ejmas.com/tin/2008tin/tinart_tong-sasamori2_0809.html
http://ejmas.com/tin/2008tin/tinart_tong-sasamori3_0810.html

I will email you.





"Ukenagashi" means to "parry, ward off" in normal Japanese discourse. In the Itto-ryu Gokui, by Sasamori Junzo, the term is used as a verb when describing the motions used in a waza, not the name of a particular technique.

Yes, I agree.
So I think we're all talking the same thing but from different lenses.

Cheers,
Doug
;)

[MoHa]

Doug,

Thanks for the articles.

I am in Hawaii now. Look forward to hearing from you.

Cheers,
Mark

[Karl Friday]

At the bottom of page 91 to the top of page 92 Dr Friday touches briefly on a Kashima Shinryu technique called naori taichuken. When introducing this technique he states that it is used to reverse Onoha Itto-ryu’s “famous” ukenagashi technique (*I apologize, I do not have the book handy to quote the section word for word). I found this odd because if Onoha Itto-ryu is famous for any one technique it would certainly be kiriotoshi. I have not been studying Itto-ryu very long so I consulted my sempai, and we both agree that ukenagashi (especially as it is described in Dr Friday’s book) is not a prominent technique in Onoha Itto-ryu outside of the kodachi kata. Techniques likes surinagashi or even uketome are used frequently but I can only think of one particular kata in the 1st 50 that uses ukenagashi, and that is used to deflect an attack to the right mid-section and/or forearm, quite different from how it is described in the "Legacies of the Sword". Mizoguchiha Itto-ryu on the other hand uses ukenagshi extensively in its curriculum.
Of course I would love to hear from Dr Friday himself on this matter but if anyone has anything to contribute I would love to hear it. Or should I say read it….


The kata descriptions and discussions in Legacies were, of course, presented entirely within the context of Kashima-Shinryu practice and tradition. I wouldn't want to be in the position of arguing with anyone about the Onoha Itto-ryu curriculum, but two points are probably worth tossing in here.

First, what Onoha Itto-ryu considers its most famous technique isn't really the point here. The technique in question is quite famous. It's also taught in multiple lineages. Niten-ichi Ryu, for example, also has at least one version of this technique, but the one I've seen demonstrated is performed one-handed. I also learned the same technique at my Hapkido school in Seoul 30-some years ago. I've even seen it appear in movies. Different ryuha may call the technique in question by different names, but the name ukenagashi is also quite well known as a description of the move. Over the years I've demonstrated the kata or talked about it to friends and acquaintances from quite a range of koryu and modern schools, and they all knew immediately what I was talking about when I labeled it ukenagashi.

Second, the attribution of the version of the ukenagashi technique that naori taichuken is designed to counter to Onoha Itto-ryu is a matter of Kashima-Shinryu lore--that's how it's identified in the Kashima-Shinryu tradition. This may or may not be an accurate identification--Onoha Itto-ryu may not actually teach this exact technique, or it may no longer teach it, or it may teach this technique under a different name (see above).

Hope this helps!

[demakase]

I haven't checked the forums in a while, so I didn't notice a response...

First, what Onoha Itto-ryu considers its most famous technique isn't really the point here. The technique in question is quite famous....
Agreed. That wasn't really my point either. If "to reverse the famous technique, ukenagashi" had been written I wouldn't have thought twice about it. What caught my attention was "to reverse Onoha Itto-ryu's famous technique, ukenagashi". Ukenagashi is not a technique that is prominently featured in Onoha Itto-ryu and as a practitioner I found this curious.


Second, the attribution of the version of the ukenagashi technique that naori taichuken is designed to counter to Onoha Itto-ryu is a matter of Kashima-Shinryu lore--that's how it's identified in the Kashima-Shinryu tradition. This may or may not be an accurate identification--Onoha Itto-ryu may not actually teach this exact technique, or it may no longer teach it, or it may teach this technique under a different name (see above).

Hope this helps!
Yes, plenty. Thank you. If that is what is written in the Kashima Shin-ryu densho, then that is what is written. Who truly knows how much Itto-ryu has changed over the years and whether ukenagashi was prominent in the curriculum back when this was written or not?

Thanks for all the replies and thank you Dr. Friday for jumping.

[demakase]

....and thank you Dr. Friday for jumping.
"Jumping in" it should say.