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arnuld
21st November 2009, 06:21
I practice barefoot. I can't use sneakers/boots to kick because my punching bag will tear up and its expansive and I can't buy a new one. I do want to practice using shoes but can't. May be later in my life when I will enough money I will put an extra heavy-duty bag for kicking while wearing shoes. So here is the way I practice kicks using bare foot, please advise:

Side-Kick: When I side-kick, I don't use the ball of the foot but either the side of the foot or the heel. Look at the images below (the circled parts) to know what I meant by side of the foot and other for which part of the heel I use. I don't know what you call it in English. are they okay to use to hit ?

http://i46.tinypic.com/ouv0oy.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/29atssk.jpg




Front-Kick: I hit using heel of my foot.


Round-House kick: Practice to hit at thigh level using some part of my leg and some upper part of my foot. See image below (circled part) to know what part I am talking about.

http://i47.tinypic.com/29mvexv.jpg



Knee-attack: I am unable to kick someone exactly in front of me (facing me). Instead I practice that opponent is standing either on left or right side of mine and I hit him using knee-attack using a part of the knee little above the joint. see the pic:

http://i45.tinypic.com/25k29om.jpg

Tell me if any of them is wrong and also tell me the correct positions and I will change the way I practice.

nawaz
28th December 2014, 15:38
This is exceptionally decent post thanks..!!

Tripitaka of AA
28th December 2014, 18:14
This is exceptionally bad SPAM.

Cady Goldfield
28th December 2014, 19:56
And the spammer has been banned.

Hissho
28th December 2014, 22:10
And that's how to smack down! :D

Any thoughts on/about kicking in shoes, street clothes, etc? We could turn this into an interesting discussion...

Joseph Svinth
29th December 2014, 08:53
These may sound facetious, but they aren't.

* Kicking in high heels can be done, but takes talent. (See the Rockettes.)

* Kicking in work boots can be a problem, too. As can be kicking in shoes that aren't laced up correctly.

* Tight pants are a problem. So are phones, knives, and whatnot in one's pockets.

* Slips and falls while kicking are a definite concern. That pavement is hard.

* Most fights I've seen that had kicks were being done by folks that were several feet out of range. My theory? If you think you are close enough to kick, then use a stick. If you think you are close enough to punch, then kick. If you think you're close enough to wrestle, then punch and elbow. And, if you're close enough to kiss, then you're probably getting into grappling range. I say "probably" because a lot of people wrestle like they're dancing with their sisters, you know?

Senshido
29th December 2014, 09:02
IMHO The ways described in the original post were mostly on the money,

Yoko Geri (side kick) should be done as mentioned using sokuto (outside edge of the foot, near the heel) whether barefoot or wearing shoes.

Mae Geri (front kick) barefoot should be chusoku (ball of foot) but wearing shoes you have to adapt to mae kakato geri (front heel kick) or the flat of the bottom of your foot, but then it is more of a push.

Mawashi Geri (round house kick), unless you are simply scoring points, should be done with the shin anyway so adapting to wearing shoes is already done.

Hiza Geri (knee kick) can be done as described (mawashi style) or indeed straight in front using the hips to push it through.

I should add, that probably the only kick I would use in the street would be the gedan mawashi geri (low roundhouse kick)

TonyU
29th December 2014, 21:35
Mae Geri (front kick) barefoot should be chusoku (ball of foot) but wearing shoes you have to adapt to mae kakato geri (front heel kick) or the flat of the bottom of your foot, but then it is more of a push.

In Okinawan karate this description is felt that it was born of sport karate. They dislike it and have talked about it at length. They prefer tsumasaki-geri or toe kicks. Which is easily adaptable with shoes and you don't have to change the position of your foot. It's the way I was taught and the only way I've seen done by the older Okinawan karateka.

Hissho
30th December 2014, 05:02
How 'bout:

Not necessarily the kicking foot in shoes, but the planted foot.

How 'bout your dress shoes in a suit versus your running shoes or hikers...

Uneven, slippery, hard, and cluttered terrain...both indoor and outdoors...

Tight jeans?

etc. Joe has the gist...

Joseph Svinth
30th December 2014, 05:39
Kicks that aren't kicks, but that instead lead to osotogari are nice, too, especially if done as the other fellow is kicking.

Works in tournaments, too. (Damn, missed again. Sure sorry about that. Hope you didn't fall too hard.)

Senshido
30th December 2014, 08:18
In Okinawan karate this description is felt that it was born of sport karate. They dislike it and have talked about it at length. They prefer tsumasaki-geri or toe kicks. Which is easily adaptable with shoes and you don't have to change the position of your foot. It's the way I was taught and the only way I've seen done by the older Okinawan karateka.

That (toe kick) in fact would be my preferred way of kicking, but have you ever toe-kicked a heavy bag with trainers (sneakers) on? It can still hurt quite badly, although having said that. a heavy bag is harder than most bodies.

Again though, adapting to the street, and taking terrain, clothing etc. into account I would not be kicking above the waist, so I would either be using my shin to the side of a leg (preferably their knee) or tsumasaki-geri or haisoku (top of foot) to the nuts.

P.S. as a 50 something year old, I wouldn't be wearing tight jeans or untied boots so no issue there for me ;)

Brian Owens
30th December 2014, 08:37
P.S. as a 50 something year old, I wouldn't be wearing tight jeans or untied boots so no issue there for me ;)

This is an important point with respect to personal protection skills: since we cannot predict with certainty when we may or may not need to defend ourselves, being always prepared means making certain choices in advance. Some of those choices involve our fashion choices: no tight jeans, no high heels, etc. In my case, it also means choosing shirts or jackets that will cover my pistol when I'm out in public so as not to unduly alarm the squeamish, yet still allow rapid access if needed.

It's all about compromises.

TonyU
30th December 2014, 15:30
I am one year away from fifty and yes, I've kicked a heavy bag barefoot and with trainers on and I still prefer toe kick. Can be done with conditioning. Of course I have a sandbag next to my night stand I toe kick on a regular basis.
Now here's the kicker (pun intended) in 20 years of law enforcement and in many a scuffles I've yet to kick someone.

Anyway, I was just relating what I've learned from the Okinawans.

Senshido
30th December 2014, 20:09
I am one year away from fifty and yes, I've kicked a heavy bag barefoot and with trainers on and I still prefer toe kick. Can be done with conditioning. Of course I have a sandbag next to my night stand I toe kick on a regular basis.
Now here's the kicker (pun intended) in 20 years of law enforcement and in many a scuffles I've yet to kick someone.

Anyway, I was just relating what I've learned from the Okinawans.

Hi Tony,
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and I wasn't knocking it in any way.
I have had to kick outside of the dojo or tournament and I just used my "bread & butter" kick which is gedan mawashi geri, so it was shin anyway.
My other ramblings in my original post about parts of the foot to use were hypothetical and my opinion.

TonyU
31st December 2014, 16:08
Hi Tony,
I have had to kick outside of the dojo or tournament and I just used my "bread & butter" kick which is gedan mawashi geri, so it was shin anyway.
Good devastating kick. Many can't take the kick. Another one that if the opportunity arose could be a game changer in a self defense scenario.

My other ramblings in my original post about parts of the foot to use were hypothetical and my opinion.
Which were valid, imo. That's what these forums are for, correct? The sharing of not only knowledge and facts, but hypotheticals and opinions.

Hissho
31st December 2014, 22:47
I think the low shin kick to the legs, along with foot sweeps, are among the things most people simply do not know how to deal with, or process when it happens to them in a self defense environment. They are also high percentage techniques, with low risk to the kicker/sweeper.

Though I generally do not teach these specific techniques in personal protection, as in my experience they take some timing and skill, with that skill (readily developed arts that train them under true dynamics such as Kyokushin and judo) these are among the best self defensive options out there.

Joseph Svinth
1st January 2015, 01:40
Blocking with the knee and elbow is also (IMO) a useful skill to develop. Takes time, of course, but in relative terms, you have lots of time to develop that if you're in a judo or karate class, and the movement is essentially preparation for a kick.

Senshido
1st January 2015, 13:31
That's what these forums are for, correct? The sharing of not only knowledge and facts, but hypotheticals and opinions.

very true! :)

TonyU
1st January 2015, 16:25
I think the low shin kick to the legs, along with foot sweeps, are among the things most people simply do not know how to deal with, or process when it happens to them in a self defense environment. They are also high percentage techniques, with low risk to the kicker/sweeper.

Though I generally do not teach these specific techniques in personal protection, as in my experience they take some timing and skill, with that skill (readily developed arts that train them under true dynamics such as Kyokushin and judo) these are among the best self defensive options out there.
I agree. Sweeps I've done with great success.
Btw, I lied. As I was on my way to my in-laws last night we passed an old project neighborhood that has since been torn down and new duplexes were built. I was discussing with my wife about times I've worked the neighborhood in my narco days and how I once kicked someone the course of attempting to arrest and was resisting.
I didn't mean to kick him. I wan attempting something else. It worked, but it was an accident. :p

CEB
5th January 2015, 20:46
I don't know what my favorite SD kick is called. We called it the Kuda kick because Mr. Kuda taught us the kick. I momentarily gives up the inside of the kicking leg but holy moly! It is like a horizontal fumikomi. Other than that it is very in close mawashi geri with the shins. In close you real can't avoid it. Then being a Goju guy a kick we call kensetsu geri is near and dear to my heart.

Joseph Svinth
6th January 2015, 03:11
Since this is self defense, this presumably ends up in court (and/or internal affairs). In that case, I'm guessing that "I slapped him in the face, then kneed him in the nuts" sounds much better than "I punched and kicked him in the head until he fell down."

CEB
6th January 2015, 03:17
My favorite head shot is a "slap".

Senshido
6th January 2015, 08:31
I don't know what my favorite SD kick is called. We called it the Kuda kick because Mr. Kuda taught us the kick. I momentarily gives up the inside of the kicking leg but holy moly! It is like a horizontal fumikomi. Other than that it is very in close mawashi geri with the shins. In close you real can't avoid it. Then being a Goju guy a kick we call kensetsu geri is near and dear to my heart.

and being a Kyokushin guy... Kansetsu geri is one of my favourites too! :)


My favorite head shot is a "slap".

I love this.... I use what I call throwing the tennis ball, a closed fist (holding the imaginary ball) and throw it, keeping the hand closed until almost the point of impact, then open the hand and "slap" !

Senshido
6th January 2015, 08:36
I don't know what my favorite SD kick is called. We called it the Kuda kick because Mr. Kuda taught us the kick. I momentarily gives up the inside of the kicking leg but holy moly! It is like a horizontal fumikomi.

Is that what we call uchi momo geri? inside low kick to the thigh?

CEB
6th January 2015, 15:22
I don't know. You bring your knee up high like yu are going to stomp. Then drive the bottom of your foot into your opponent's thigh or hip. The angle of your foot is with the toes angling out like in masubi dachi. You could target the front of the knee also or above the front of the knee and ride him down to the instep.

If you catch a guy coming in and nail that kick in his upper thigh or hip you can send him airborne face down if you drive his lower body out from under him. I don't have a name for this kick. We used to have some Matsumura Kempo people on e-Budo who might know. The late founder of Matsumura Kempo, Yuichi Kuda taught that kick.

Senshido
6th January 2015, 16:26
Ah no, that sounds different, it sounds a bit more like a version of gedan mae kakato geri

Brian Owens
6th January 2015, 19:57
If what you're describing is what I think it is (see attached photo), in the Shito Ryu dojo I belonged to we called that Fumikomi Geri, but I don't recall a specific name for the version with the striking foot rotated out like that. It differed from Kakato Geri Fumikomi in that the heel wasn't the weapon.

10783

CEB
7th January 2015, 00:51
That is it except he would throw it to the thigh or hip like a horizontal fumikomi.

Joseph Svinth
7th January 2015, 01:52
Kansetsugeri, perhaps? See images D3 and D4 on page 33. https://books.google.com/books?id=EMlXzpB4IpcC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=shotei+karate&source=bl&ots=J1c0tr5qga&sig=J_NxR5zocqlBewWgBPycL1ul7Pw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IZCsVPq3Ose3oQT_sYDwBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=shotei%20karate&f=false

Senshido
7th January 2015, 08:56
Kansetsugeri, perhaps? See images D3 and D4 on page 33. https://books.google.com/books?id=EMlXzpB4IpcC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=shotei+karate&source=bl&ots=J1c0tr5qga&sig=J_NxR5zocqlBewWgBPycL1ul7Pw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IZCsVPq3Ose3oQT_sYDwBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=shotei%20karate&f=false

Kansetsugeri has the foot turned in (rather than out like in the picture above). kansetsugeri is essentially a low yoko geri which I would aim at the knee joint

Senshido
7th January 2015, 09:11
Kansetsugeri, perhaps? See images D3 and D4 on page 33. https://books.google.com/books?id=EMlXzpB4IpcC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=shotei+karate&source=bl&ots=J1c0tr5qga&sig=J_NxR5zocqlBewWgBPycL1ul7Pw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IZCsVPq3Ose3oQT_sYDwBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCg#v=onepage&q=shotei%20karate&f=false

I have just been looking through that google book again... it seems a lot of the names have either changed over the years or maybe wrongly translated in the first place? it's also weird that the front cover pictures are of guys in Taekwondo uniforms, The guys inside the book though have the kyokushinkai kanji on their gi's.
A lot of the descriptions of body parts are not what I would call them. For example naka ashi in the book is what I would call chusoko and heiken in the book is what I would call hiraken.

sorry to derail the thread, just an observation :)

Hissho
7th January 2015, 20:12
Thoughts, guys, on setting the foot and body for kicking when wearing different kinds of shoes? On different surfaces? How do you advise people to practice these things?

CEB
7th January 2015, 20:42
Personally I don't bother. I don't teach Self Defense. I have students who have went out and taught various types of self defense courses. I even had one ask me to help him with one of his women's self defense courses. I told I wasn't qualified and hes wasn't either..... that honked him off. Frankly I am probably as or more qualified than a lot of these jokers out there doing it today.

My personal thoughts are I am licensed to teach traditional Goju Ryu Karate so that is what I teach. In time of an emergency it may or may not be effective. I have been working in bars for 30+ years. I was a victim of an "attempted" armed robbery and came out well, I have been the point of attemted assault and got 'lucky'. My teacher was a cop. 8 of my seniors coming up through the ranks were cops. I have been around the block a time or two. Practiced and competed in various sport combatives. I liked to "fight".

But self defense against real violence I am not qualified to teach. There are mental and legal and physiological considerations to take into account and I simply don't think you can teach most people to be able to fight. A big event that steered me away from ever teaching self defense was helping one of my cop sempai training partners with a womens self defense course. In practice I grabbed this woman and she freaked. Women sign up for your courses because they have need for it. The psychological scars they sometimes carry are things I don't fathom. Just touchiing a women who has been a violence victim in practice can be tricky. I decided then I was sticking to Karate, Judo and later BJJ.


I think a person has the built in programming to be able to flip the switch or they don't. I don't know how you teach that. ...... and I never got into martial arts because I was concerned about self defense. I just liked doing it. My brother came home when I was 10 and he was 24 and he was a black belt under Nishiyama and taught Shotokan and I thought he walked on water and the rest was history.

We train self defense in terms of waza that was meant for self-defense. But I do everything in the mindset of dojo practice. I teach Budo without an emphasis on the street.

CEB
7th January 2015, 20:52
Sorry about rambling about nonsense. I guess I am feel chatty today.

Tripitaka of AA
8th January 2015, 00:23
There are people paying good money to hear rambling tales from "instructors" who have a lot less to say than you Ed. Keep going, the smart people are listening (and me too).

Senshido
8th January 2015, 14:01
I'm kinda with you on that Ed, first and foremost I teach Kyokushinkai Karate and I teach the self defence in that syllabus and as you say with the mind set of dojo practice.
I do however deviate a little with self defence as I worked as a bouncer for many years and you pick up a different set of skills which I pass on to my regular students that are interested in that little bit more.... In this scenario, mind set and the "switch" you mentioned are a big factor in making things work to your advantage.

Hissho
9th January 2015, 01:06
Nice to see very clear statements of what you are doing... Maybe more for Tony but thoughts on kicking wearing a gun belt and vest? Tac gear and laden with heavy equipment - or with the rifle?

StephenBaker
9th January 2015, 01:17
Mr. Boyd,

Your post really resonated. I have had the "switch" and violence conversation with several people who refused to believe that there is something in addition to the weekend seminar or safe training. It has scared the pants off of me to watch a few folks I really like think they are ready to be auxiliary security for a function and not view that as "I can safely intervene and protect the civilians" vs. "see something and go call the police, on-site real security, etc."

I have no personal combatives teaching experience and only speak from being lucky a few times and generally interested.

As for kicking with gear on, I would love to hear the answer as a civilian. My understanding is that physically the longest range is when then leg is out at waste height. Does tac gear impede movement through the 90 degree mark? No knowledge here but really curious.

Regards,

Stephen Baker

Brian Owens
9th January 2015, 01:39
In thinking back (okay, way back) to my days at the police academy, we had a mere week of training in PART (physical apprehension and restraint techniques) and a week of riot control. That was the extent of defensive tactics that we received. We were taught some leg sweeps and low kicks, but nothing above knee level. Wearing a duty belt with a gun, a radio, handcuffs, a baton or flashlight, etc. hanging off it was definitely a deterrent to doing an imitation of Bill Wallace, to say nothing of the fact that to use high kicks effectively requires a lot more training and a higher level of continuing fitness than was likely to be maintained by the majority once they were out of the academy.

TonyU
9th January 2015, 01:54
Thoughts, guys, on setting the foot and body for kicking when wearing different kinds of shoes? On different surfaces? How do you advise people to practice these things?
With those things on on those different surfaces. When I first got on the team and started incorporating DT I would do force on force with full gear on, including rifles. One guy learned that when wound up on his back he was like a turtle and couldn't get up. Initially it was the funny, hilarious actually, but it was a sobering fact.
Also, the gear not only limited how high you can kick, so a front kick to the midsection was out, but your center of balance was off too. So, with all that gear on and the extra weight it added, you immediately learned the risks of trying to balance on one leg.
My tac vest alone added an additional 25 lbs. That didn't include any other gear that I attached to it like loaded AR magazines.

TonyU
9th January 2015, 02:16
Here's some old pics of us doing training with the gear on. Btw, the only "kick" I found to work consistently and able to be executed successfully with all the gear on were knee strikes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/aburena/normal_DSC00609.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/aburena/normal_DSC00607.jpg

And here's my old tac vest from when I was on the team.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/aburena/Vest.jpg

Kendoguy9
9th January 2015, 03:23
We were taught krav maga. Each day for 3 weeks or maybe a month we would end the day with a two hour DT class. We had three kicks; "A-frame" kick up the middle of their legs aiming for groin, thigh, knee or whatever we could hit, stomp kick to the stomach used mostly to clear distance and then knees to various targets when we were in too tight. I'd rather have both feet on the ground but if I had to kick I'd stick to low kicks to knees/shins/groin.

CEB
9th January 2015, 16:29
Mr. Boyd,

Your post really resonated. I have had the "switch" and violence conversation with several people who refused to believe that there is something in addition to the weekend seminar or safe training. It has scared the pants off of me to watch a few folks I really like think they are ready to be auxiliary security for a function and not view that as "I can safely intervene and protect the civilians" vs. "see something and go call the police, on-site real security, etc."

....

It just isn't normal for most good decent folks to have to hurt someone bad at an unexpected moments notice. Not sure how you program someone to not freeze if they don't have instincts already built in.

One random thought. The most profound thing Budo may have taught me is I know a hell of a lot less in my 50s than I knew in my 20s. ( or at least what I thought I knew in my 20s). When I was 25 I probably had an answer for the above. :laugh:

TonyU
9th January 2015, 17:54
One random thought. The most profound thing Budo may have taught me is I know a hell of a lot less in my 50s than I knew in my 20s. ( or at least what I thought I knew in my 20s). When I was 25 I probably had an answer the the above. :laugh:
So true, Ed. I always said "the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know." Also, as I've gotten older and more experienced I've come to realize I'm not invincible and know my limitations. When we're younger and full of *iss and vinegar we tend to believe we could take on the world. Yeah, no.

StephenBaker
9th January 2015, 22:33
So true, Ed. I always said "the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know." Also, as I've gotten older and more experienced I've come to realize I'm not invincible and know my limitations. When we're younger and full of *iss and vinegar we tend to believe we could take on the world. Yeah, no.

I just want to note that at the age of 25 I was the smartest person I knew :)

StephenBaker
10th January 2015, 23:55
We were taught krav maga. Each day for 3 weeks or maybe a month we would end the day with a two hour DT class. We had three kicks; "A-frame" kick up the middle of their legs aiming for groin, thigh, knee or whatever we could hit, stomp kick to the stomach used mostly to clear distance and then knees to various targets when we were in too tight. I'd rather have both feet on the ground but if I had to kick I'd stick to low kicks to knees/shins/groin.

When I trained with one of Seiyu Oyata's long time students we did higher stuff for stretching and to push ourselves. All techniques though seemed to stop at knees, shins, groin. There were clearly training kicks and then what we were supposed to keep in the bag of goto items when it mattered.