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View Full Version : G. Power, R. McCartney/NABA: if the shoe fits...



Meik Skoss
14th February 2001, 17:52
Anent all this stuff flying back and forth w/ re: Guy Power and his comments about R. McCartney, "Ishi Yama Ryu"/NABA, and so forth and so on...

Guy's entitled to feel acerbic and cranky at times, as are we all. Maybe you were having a bad hair day, Guy? (so to speak...) Maybe he just got tired of reading the blather by so many inexperienced and uninformed people who are really not entitled to air their opinions... YET. At this point, I think most of the opinions that have been expressed have a lot more noise and a lot less signal than one would hope.

A mere 10~15 years of training is *nowhere* near enough to give anyone the depth of knowledge or technical ability to start speaking about budo. One's still a babe in the woods. When does one earn the right? Well, again speaking from the standpoint of Japanese budo (and society in general), it is not until one has turned fifty or so that one is thought to have the depth and breadth of experience necessary to speak about anything and expect people to listen. Some koryu, for instance, do not give out their highest level licenses to a man until he's at least forty-two (o-yakudoshi). It's the same with kendo, iaido, and jodo: one does not receive the grade of hachidan (which is really the crucial level for a budo teacher there) until the age of forty-eight; less than that and "mada, mada" -- one still hasn't "got it."

Guy's questioning of the terminology was based on the facts that: a) he lived and trained in Japan for a long time and has a pretty decent knowledge of both the language and culture; b) he's been certified as an instructor by one of the most highly respected teachers of iaido, kendo and jukendo alive today; c) he's married to a Japanese woman who has worked for the U.S. government as a professional interpreter and translator and, thus, has an excellent source of reference for questions of language and culture (how many people on this forum can say that?); and, finally, d) he's *good* at what he does. I know, because I've seen him work. Iai, per se, usually puts me to sleep in short order, but when I saw him demonstrate at Meiji Jingu about five or six years ago, I got very attentive, very quickly.

The use of words like "soke" and "shihan" here in the U.S. doesn't *have* to fit the context of the Japanese, but folk who sound silly shouldn't be surprised if they're called on it by people who know better.

Not to praise Guy too much, but he's got the chops and has demonstrated 'em at one of the more significant budo venues in Japan. One doesn't get to do one's thing at Meiji unless and until one is definitely on the "A" list. But several teachers/senior exponents also commented on what he did there; unless that's also been said of oneself, maybe it'd be a bit more prudent for you "FNGs" to hold your tongues and just ask the occasional question. As opposed to giving out with your unsolicited opinions.

That's the problem with American society and the Internet: they're inherently democratic in nature, everybody's got an equal say and one man's opinion is as good as another's. True, in the sense of the political and legal systems, but speaking from the standpoint of people who've trained in Japan *AND* who've been recognized as authorities in their respective arts, it is NOT true in terms of Japanese budo. Opinions're sort of like a--holes: we've all got one.

So, Guy, to paraphrase an old Chinese proverb: "When an ant breaks wind, the elephant takes no heed."

carl mcclafferty
14th February 2001, 20:08
Meik:

Gees, I was trying to imagine noticing Guy having a bad hair, Heh Heh. Yours must be standing on end and out to the sides!

I haven't heard FNG for thirty years. Most respondents here are probably too young to get the inference, but than that shoe would fit them...

Carl McClafferty

Tony Peters
14th February 2001, 20:36
I have read all of the posts concerning NABA and it remends me of all the uproar last year (precrash I think) concerning Dave Lowery's I'm a SEAL articles in Furyu. Granted in this case Mr. McCartney likely has more real experience than many (if not all) of the Koryu pretenders but the arguements sound the same. It is really funny when the folks who have been there and done that speak up and tell it like it is. The FNG's (as you say) tend to feel slighted at the lack of there knowledge and try to cover it with emotion. I know that on occasion's I have misspoken to my sensei's (both Koryu practicianers) and having their knowledge correcting me can and is intimidating at times. But I'd rather be right and humbled then wrong and looking stupid.
Peace
Tony

Eldorobo
14th February 2001, 21:30
Hi
As one of the people who questioned Mr Powers on something he said I have to take offense at the concept that I don't have the right to. Guy Powers said something and I asked about it and he answered. We had a conversion and as far as the postings we did they were rather pleasant. (For E-budo standards) I don't seem to remember that he took offense. I am entiled to my opinion just as he is and even though he has a mountain of experience to my molehill doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says. You seem to be taking offense for him.

john mark
15th February 2001, 01:29
<A HREF="http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Dave%27sF/Confess.html">Confession of a Navy Seal</A> is a great article. You should also read <A HREF="http://koryu.com/library/dlowry1.html">Sighting the Grizzly: Understanding Abuses of Japan's Classical Martial Traditions</A> by Dave Lowry.




[Edited by john mark on 02-16-2001 at 02:21 PM]

Meik Skoss
15th February 2001, 03:25
J. McDonald wrote: "As one of the people who questioned Mr. Powers on something he said I have to take offense at the concept that I don't have the right to. Guy Powers said something and I asked about it and he answered. We had a conversion and as far as the postings we did they were rather pleasant. (For E-budo standards) I don't seem to remember that he took offense. I am entiled to my opinion just as he is and even though he has a mountain of experience to my molehill doesn't mean I have to agree with everything he says. You seem to be taking offense for him."

Mr. McDonald, you need to re-read my post. You've missed my point entirely and misconstrued what I said as "taking offense" at what you wrote. Not at all. Contempt is too strong a term for it; a better way to put it would probably be "bemused resignation." You are entitled to your opinion, as is anybody else. Remember what I said about opinions?

It remains, however, that when one doesn't have experience of the sort, or to the extent, needed to make intelligent comments, then it's probably better to just listen quietly to your elders/seniors/betters. You'll get there eventually -- if you stay the course. Wakaru ka na?

ben johanson
16th February 2001, 17:40
I whole-heartedly agree with Meik here. I think it would do all of us amateurs alot of good to try and operate from the assumption that, no matter how much we think we know, we really know absolutely nothing, when it comes right down to it, about martial arts. Yes everyone in America is supposedly entitled to their opinions, but just because you possess the right to have it, does not mean your opinion is right. I think we have to make way for and respect the highly informed input of our older and more experienced fellow martial artists.

We Americans seem to be so concerned with our RIGHT to do something (like the right to express an opinion) that we never stop to think whether we SHOULD do it. Sometimes it is much better to ask questions and then shut up and listen to the response than to make a statement that is probably going to be misguided and uninformed anyway. Not that we need to be walking around on eggshells here on e-budo lest we may offend somebody or fail to show them the "proper respect" or anything since this is a rather informal setting, but I certainly would not behave in person around highly experienced and knowledgable martial artists the way many of us do on this discussion forum.

Tony Peters
16th February 2001, 20:08
Ben has a very good point, Unfortunatly I don't see much possiblity for change. We are to a fault too interested in our rights. We are more interested in our right to do something than why we are able to do it. History is rapidly becoming something that only gets used to prove a point otherwise it isn't important, especially if it disagree's with our point. Americans are extreamly selfish. This is a cultural thing just the same as the japanese respect for elders we disrespect them. I realize that this is a generalazation and that not all americans behave this way but the ones that do seem to make more noise.

maney
16th February 2001, 21:24
Hrmmm...

Ok, first things first, I must have missed the threads that led up to this because I really don't know what caused all of this (though as soon as I am done posting this I am going to try to find those threads). However, there have been a few comments made here that I'd like to respond to.


Meik Skoss said
A mere 10~15 years of training is *nowhere* near enough to give anyone the depth of knowledge or technical ability to start speaking about budo. One's still a babe in the woods.


Remember that old saw, "from the mouths of babes..."? I know that in my own, limited in comparision to others here I'm sure, experience as a student and instructor in the martial arts (and other fields for that matter), there have been many times when a student has pushed me and helped me learn more about a topic that I thought I had already mastered by simply asking a question or challenging an assumption of mine and making me defend it.


Meik Skoss said
It remains, however, that when one doesn't have experience of the sort, or to the extent, needed to make intelligent comments, then it's probably better to just listen quietly to your elders/seniors/betters. You'll get there eventually -- if you stay the course. Wakaru ka na?


My question here would be, when do you know that you have to sort, or extent, of experience neccessary to make intelligent comments? I mean, the degree of intelligence inherent in a comment is directly related to the experience and knowledge of ther person making those comments. So, how much constitutes "enough"?

One hears stories from time to time of older students going to Japan who are instructed to wear a black belt, regardless of their skill level, simply because of their age. One also hears stories of students who started quite young and have many years of experience but are ignored simply because they don't have enough grey in their beard. Pardon my impatience and impudence, being as I am only 29 and have only been training for about 13 years, but waiting until a person is 50 or older before listening to their musings and thoughts is the height of arrogance to my mind.

I agree that, in general, a person who has studied for a "mere 10~15 years" has nowhere near the experience of someone who has been training for more than 30 years in the same art. However, if the former spent those few short years using their skills in direct combat, say in the Spec-Ops or LEO arenas, and the latter has been the monk in a mountain temple, I would say that they could both teach the other many things about the art that they have been studying. My point is that judging someone simply on how old they are or how long they have been training makes about as much sense as judging their ability to perform atemi waza based on the size of the scarring on their knuckles. It's arbitrary and makes no sense.

Now, admittedly this is taking things to the extreme, but it seems as if you, like many of the traditional old school practitioners that I have met, are suggesting that he (and by extension, I) should simply sit back and absorb the fount of knowledge that is provided by those with more knowledge and experience at their own pace and in the manner and order in which they choose. I wonder how this could possibly work given the tendency for those that do have the experience and knowledge to not be overly forthcoming (read as "go out of their way to educate or provide resources") with people with less experience. I also wonder if that wouldn't spell the death of resources like E-Budo as, by far, the majority of content on this site is provided by those that most likely would not fulfill the requirements you mention.

It seems to me, from the posts in this thread only, that Mr. McDonald did exactly what he should (and is his right in the US and as a member of E-Budo), namely he asked a question of and participated in the ensuing conversation with Mr. Powers concerning some topic upon which they disagreed. I have done this myself many times, both here on E-Budo and in nearly every dojo I've ever been in in real life.

It seems to me that a far more effective situation would be for the more experienced to teach as is their wont, but for the less experienced to also question and challenge in order to increase their own understanding. There are correct and polite ways for the less experienced to this to be sure, but as long as those are followed, I can see nothing but good coming from the questioning and challenging of what is taught and said by those greater experience by those with lesser experience.


Ben Johansen said
We Americans seem to be so concerned with our RIGHT to do something (like the right to express an opinion) that we never stop to think whether we SHOULD do it.


While I agree wholeheartedly with this (it is certainly one of the major heartburns I have with Mr. Clinton and now Martin Sheen), I do wish to also point out that, contrary to the arrogance of US citizens, there are many more "Americans" than there are US citizens and most of them do not have the rights that we here in the US have.

fpsm

[Edited by maney on 02-16-2001 at 03:47 PM]

john mark
16th February 2001, 22:22
Mr. Maney ,


Originally posted by maney
My question here would be, when do you know that you have to sort, or extent, of experience necessary to make intelligent comments? I mean, the degree of intelligence inherent in a comment is directly related to the experience and knowledge of ther [sic] person making those comments. So, how much constitutes "enough"?

Long, long time ago when the light side of the force held Kyokushinkai together, I started asking a lot of questions and making, in retrospect, less than appropriate comments about training, Kyokushin split offs, etc. Although I believed I had the support of my sempai, S. Oyama said my comments should be withheld until I “First master[ed] the basics.” Since I thought everybody was entitled to express their opinions and thoughts no matter how baseless, I persisted. Much to my chagrin S. Oyama emphasized that I should "<A HREF="http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=4482">Sweat first, talk latter</A>."

Best,

hyaku
17th February 2001, 08:31
One hears stories from time to time of older students going to Japan who are instructed to wear a black belt, regardless of their skill level, simply because of their age. One also hears stories of students who started quite young and have many years of experience but are ignored simply because they don't have enough grey in their beard. Pardon my impatience and impudence, being as I am only 29 and have only been training for about 13 years, but waiting until a person is 50 or older before listening to their musings and thoughts is the height of arrogance to my mind.
........................
I agree with some of your sentiments about age and experience. Some people never seem to acquire any sense whatever age they reach.

But one of these young veterans I know wrote to the Guinness book to ask them to leave his details out as he felt that there was no place for war or weapons in such a publication

What is being discussed here is the use and ideals of the Japanese sword and the titles that go with it. That's what the forum is about?

Its not musings or thoughts but for some of us it involves a deep understanding of Japanese culture, its language, religion and attitudes and interaction towards others within that culture. Some of us are or have been deeply involved in this culture and in reading a thread or seeing someones actions can quickly sum up what has been said or should I say "not been said" or what has been done or not done in the correct manner befitting Japanese swordsmanship.

Reading and studying for example some of the articles about Nanjing perhaps gives us some idea of how delicately we have to tread, and that we have to very carefully consider anything we do publicly which relates to the Japanese sword in any country.

Its hard enough trying to keep sensationalism out of the sword arts as it is. I already have to translate the odd question popping up like asking about the abilty to chop off heads. I can see it now. In future someone will be walking up to some respected Japanese expert and saying "Ah but can you do 1000 cuts?"

Hyakutake Colin




[Edited by hyaku on 02-17-2001 at 02:45 AM]

mdheiler
17th February 2001, 18:55
Meik Skoss wrote: A mere 10~15 years of training is *nowhere* near enough to give anyone the depth of knowledge or technical ability to start speaking about budo. One's still a babe in the woods. When does one earn the right? Well, again speaking from the standpoint of Japanese budo (and society in general), it is not until one has turned fifty or so that one is thought to have the depth and breadth of experience necessary to speak about anything and expect people to listen. Some koryu, for instance, do not give out their highest level licenses to a man until he's at least forty-two (o-yakudoshi). It's the same with kendo, iaido, and jodo: one does not receive the grade of hachidan (which is really the crucial level for a budo teacher there) until the age of forty-eight; less than that and "mada, mada" -- one still hasn't "got it."


First, speaking about society in general, one does not need to be fifty to have the depth and breadth of knowledge necessary to speak about something and expect people to listen. Case in point: I obtained a Ph.D. from one of the most highly respected universities in the United States while still in my twenties. Travelling along this path I gained many things, two of which are a general knowledge of how to properly conduct research and specialized knowledge on a particular subject (that of my dissertation). Upon obtaining my Ph.D. I did not, and still do not consider myself an expert on how to conduct research. However, when pursuing research at a later date I proved that I was compotent, in a sink or swim envirionment of engineering research.

Now to the main point. Having just finished my dissertation research I was considered a world class expert on the topic of my dissertation, and me less than 28 years old at the time. Had my committee not considered me to have that level of knowledge of the subject, they most likely would not have allowed me to pass my dissertation defense. Additionally, all through my Ph.D. studies and afterwards, I presented my research to academics and practicing engineers for peer review, both orally and in writing. Let me assure you that I was listened to and taken seriously.

Now, you say, engineering and budo are two different things. Yes, I agree, they are very different things. However, in both cases maturity and experience come into play. I have met several engineering students and martial artists in their twenties with a very high level of maturity and an approach to learning that has allowed them to learn their craft very well, gaining a great depth and breadth of knowledge in a very short time. In such cases, one year of practice is one year of experience, and ten years of practice is ten years of experience. I have also seen fifty and sixty year old engineers, engineering faculty, and martial artists with a very low level of maturity and a stagnent outlook on their craft, demonstrating very little real knowledge of their art. Here, thirty years of experience could be one year of the same experience thirty times.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm not even saying this is often the case. I agree that more often than not, those inexperienced martial artists that are being spoken of have very little to say that is correct or even interesting. However, experience has taught me to take people by their actions (and maybe unfortunately, on the internet words are actions) and not by their pedigree and age. Wisdom can come from the mouth of babes, and your family patriarch probably will get senile with age.

Second, speaking about budo, are their not cases of individuals receiving menkyo in their respective koryu bujutsu while still in their thirties? I cannot recall any off the top of my head but I am sure the historians among us can list a few off the top of their heads. I do not know the answer, but I would bet money there have been.


Meik Skoss wrote: So, Guy, to paraphrase an old Chinese proverb: "When an ant breaks wind, the elephant takes no heed."


Wow, what an elitist atitude. We are not talking of ants and elephants, but about people. Just because someone wrote it a long time ago does not make it deep or meaningful in any way. People were idiots back then too.

I respect your writing and historical knowledge Mr. Skoss. I also like they the way you are able to put a stop to much of the babbling and arguing that goes on with a few well chosen words back by first hand knowledge and documentation. However, there is still more that you do not know about koryu bujutsu than you do know, just like the rest of us. And as much as you might be use to Japanese culture, many, if not most, of the posters on this forum are American, and as such, everyone is entitled to their opinion, just as you are.

People are people the world over. Koryu bujutsu may have begun in Japan, but there are great and very bad martial artists in both Japan and America. I personally would like to travel to Japan and study koryu bujutsu one day. However, I am under no delusion that the world of martial arts begins and ends in Asia.

Michael D. Heiler

Kolschey
17th February 2001, 21:39
It seems that we are looking at the same misunderstandings that we have seen in other forums, and previous debates concerning the value of historical transmission. Let me begin by saying that I will use the analogy of visual arts, so that I do not muddy the waters. I do not believe that anyone questions that a person may become proficient in a skill or art at a young age. If the question is "can a person build a bridge " or "can a person cut through/kick through/fight through X number of obstacles" then yes, there is definitely a proven role for that sort of energy, enthusiasm, and innovation. What makes an art form different is depth of focus. It is not so bad to do one thing over and over for years on end, so long as one does it mindfully. How many times have I seen individuals whose lack of craftsmanship betrays their work because they have been fed a diet of "innovate, break, change, do something new!" for several years of art school. The artists that I have seen who accomplish work of great value do introduce innovation into their work, but it is built on a solid foundation of techical proficiency AND emotional maturity. I am twenty seven years old. While I would like to believe that I behave with an appropriate maturity to my years, I am also very much aware that my twenty seven years do not compare to the challenges, responsibilities, tribulations, self evaluation and plain ol' life experience of my older teachers and sempai. Plain and simple. While my friends and colleagues may appreciate my skill in an art form, and the responsibility and foresight that I apply to my creative work, or my dedication to my training, this does not give me the experience of my Academic Advisor from my years at UW Madison. I chose to work with him because I was very much aware that youthful energy and enthusiasm requires the balance of those who have the maturity, experience, and substance of older generations. My learning curve in picking up software skills is a good thing, but it was his experience of spending more years as a professional artist than I have been alive that I found to be of extraordinary value. My hands grow tired, but I hope that this post might serve to illutrate the value of a historical continuity in an art form, even in the present day.

Joseph Svinth
17th February 2001, 23:54
Okay. This thread is now going two different ways. So let's keep things separate, as that way nobody gets confused about what is being said, or believes that you are supporting their side when really you are not.

1. Elitism

Some people like Mickey D's while others prefer Sushi. Likewise, some people like fat sexual partners while others like lean. These are matters of personal taste.

However, when comparing MA styles, the proper analogy is not restaurants or bounce per ounce, but instead more fundamental issues such as religion and football teams. Passions abound, and as any Seahawks fan can attest, hope for a winning season springs eternal.

2. Ishi Yama Ryu

Questions of belief aside, the technical merits of this debate are easily resolved. How? The old-fashioned way, by comparison and contrast. We get a couple neutral parties to watch, review, and get back to us regarding those videos I recommended. Mickey C's or American Sushi? Ryu or E-go Ryu?

So who are neutral parties? Definitely not anyone from Ishi Yama Ryu, the Pacific Northwest Kendo Federation, or the koryu/Toyama ryu. So how about some ninjas? A ninja fellow was probably the second-best all-round practitioner at McCartney's recent taikai (Tony Alvarez of Bugei was probably #1 all-round; the PNKF, CKF, and koryu styles had no significant representation), so I am NOT being sarcastic here.

Tony Peters
18th February 2001, 04:18
Folks just don't seem to get the point. In my profession as a US Navy Photographer of 12 years I am considered to be somewhat of an expert. That said I defer to those senior to me in time more than rank everyday. Rank is great, it says that someone of some importance recognizes that you have done certain things and passed certain qualification. Just because this is true doesn't mean you are an expert. Hell I I don't consider myself an expert Photographer even though others may. I have lots to learn and I am learning more every day. The same is true in the martial arts after about 10-12 years of practice ones body remembers most of what you have been taught and things begin to pass the thinking stage. The folks here who have been at it that long have a valid voice but they are still just beginers. They have just reached the point where they don't have to think out everything they do. Another decade or so of acting on instinct and then they would likely be considered expert. There is a reason that arts like Aikido (aikikai) often require about ten years until shodan. While I don't neccessarily agree with this extream I do agree that it takes at least 10 years for an action (practiced daily) to move beyond the rote repetition stage. That said those of us that haveyet to even reached this stage would do well to recognize those that have surpassed this turning point. Time is much more important than rank especially time under serious instruction as compared to partime. Having spent a few week training in Japan I can say with absolute certainty that I disagreed with alot of what (or maybe it was how) my sensei there were trying to teach me but in the end I learned a hell of a lot more than I expected. This is no way a slight at my home sensei just that it's differant there. Those that have the bulk of there training in japan bring to us a totally differant view point than we partimers here in the US are used to dealing with. Are they always right??? Probably not but until you have put in the same amount of time that they have you really have no valid basis to disagree with them. If you dilike what they say or disagreed with them fine but remember that their opinions are much closer to the root than yours is and likely much less diluted. Lack of respect just shows that you are not capable on many fronts.

Scott Irey
19th February 2001, 10:20
Joseph Svinth Writes:

So who are neutral parties? Definitely not anyone from Ishi Yama Ryu, the Pacific Northwest Kendo Federation, or the koryu/Toyama ryu. So how about some ninjas? A ninja fellow was probably the second-best all-round practitioner at McCartney's recent taikai (Tony Alvarez of Bugei was probably #1 all-round; the PNKF, CKF, and koryu styles had no significant representation), so I am NOT being sarcastic here.

And who exactly was this Ninja practitioner? I was at the competition in the capacity of judge, and to the best of my knowledge there were no practiotioners of ninjutsu in any shape or form at the competition. There were more than a few koryu practitioners there however, 2 of them acting as judges, and at least 5 as competitors in the kata divisions.

I will rise to your challenge and give you my impression. I believe I fill the criteria for giving the neutral witnesses opinion, unlike the vast majority of posters here and in other threads who have never met Russel McCartney, nor witnessed his technique in person. That criteria being I have witnessed Mr. McCartneys technique in peron and although I am not a very accomplished koryu practitioner, I have a bit of experience and I feel I have developed a little bit of an eye for watcing and judgeing technique.

I have been aquainted with Mr. McCartney for the last 6 years, and have had plentiful oppurtunites to witness his cutting technique and abilities in swordsmanship. Likewise over the last 13 years of practice in the sword arts I have had ample oppurtunity to observe arts similar to that which Mr. McCartney practices, including Toyama-Ryu (both in practice and in competition, both in the U.S. and Japan) Shinkendo and Ryuseiken.

In all the years I have been aquainted with Mr. McCartney, he has not once claimed to me that he was practicing a "Japanese" sword art, or that what he teaches is a koryu. He has from day one been very upfront about his art being his own creation based on his studies with various teachers of Japanese swordsmanship and his own independant research. He explains it to me as "swordsmanship based on the Japanese sword and it's traditions" I personally know of not a single person that Mr. McCartney has said otherwise to. He makes no claims to belonging to a long tradition nor does he claim to have inherited an ancient tradition of Japanese swordsmanship. If he chooses to use Japanese terminology in his tradition I find noting wrong with that. If he and his students choose to use Japanese titles to describe his position within his own organization, I see no problem with that as well. He is not claiming to be the head of some ancient ryu that never existed, he does not claim to be the disowned heir apparent of any Japanese style, he only claims to have developed his own methodology of tehcniques and teachings. He is honest and up front about who he is and what he practices.

And as far as his technique goes, he is a damn good cutter, as good as any I have seen in or outside of Japan, and I have seen some of the best cutters Japan has practicing today. Does this mean he has the right, or should even be contemplating developing his own style? I don't know..I have nver seen a set of guidlines for creating ones own style....but if there is a rule book out there somebody should either start quoting it. And if a rule book does not exist..well I guess untio somebody proves to be teh ultimate athority on the subject maybe we better quit guessing at what the criteria is.

Aside form being asked to judge at his tournament, I was also asked to be one of the the official counters at his senbongiri event. So if I amy allow me to give my impressions on this activity. First off those who did not attend this event can say what they want about it, but unless they were there their opinion means little to me. Was it showmanship, yes, but it was also one of the most impressive examples of endurance, technique and control I have ever witnessed in the Japanese sword arts that put an emphasis on cutting. Mr McCartney performed over 1100 cuts from various kamae on tatami omote (exactly the same type of target that is used for competition in Japan) in less than 90 minutes. All of his cuts were good until the last one (I don't remember the exact number of successful cuts, but the only bad one was the last one that ended the attempt) I know I could not compete in the same arena if I was asked to and I doubt many if any of Mr. McCartneys detractors could either. If any of them can, then step right up and show us what you got. I am willing to bet that if any out there can, they will not come away from the task telling us that it was nothing but a show. Indeed I would venture to guess that they would tell us that it required nothing less than a high degree of both technical and atheletic ability to even make the attempt.

As a koryu practitioner, I am impressed with Mr. McCartney and his abilities. Is it Koryu? No. Does he claim it is koryu or even something to be compared to Koryu? No. It does not even really make sense from a koryu standpoint. But then again it doesn't have to. It is all about cutting. And from a cutting persons stand point, I can't see where the problem is. I especially can't see where the problem is with somebody who has never witnessed his techniques or practiced with the man let alone discussed in person with the man what it is he does and why he does it.

Maybe when a few more people that have had personal experience with the man and his technique step forward and give us there opinions we can start to form some kind of real opinion....or at least one that is educated...

johan smits
19th February 2001, 13:50
This is my first message on this board and I will not make a habit of posting but on this subject I would like to say something.

Suppose someone from Japan came to my country to learn the "ancient art of my ancestors"and would live here for a very long time and become a Maister. Would he be for real? Yes he would, because his identity would have been formed by living in my culture for a long time (without losing his original identity) he would understand the Dutch, in a way have become part of them. He would be recognized as a Maister by Maisters, nothing wrong with that. Such a person would have my respect.

It would be a different matter if I would hear about a Japanese person living in Japan who declared himself a Maister, would start an organization of Maisters and would train in techniques and use concepts of systems from my country without any proper authorization by a true Maister (no matter how good his or hers techniques or understanding of the art would be).
It would be very funny to see a person like that walk around in 17th century trousers and wooden clogs, using phrases which even the Dutch find difficult to understand since the language has changed.

Now of course it is possible that a Japanese person, living in Japan creates a system using a Dutch theory, Dutch weapons, Dutch terminology, etc.
Such a person and his organization would belong nowhere.

A last remark:

I don't think one mans opinion is as good as the next I am very selective about whose opinion I value.


Johan Smits

kruger
20th February 2001, 23:10
From Mr. Irey:
Maybe when a few more people that have had personal experience with the man and his technique step forward and give us there opinions we can start to form some kind of real opinion....or at least one that is educated...

Here is my personal experience. I've had occasion to meet and observe Mr. McCartney on several occasions.

The first was approximately 7 years ago. A fellow aikidoka and I were discussing our sensei's latest version of shihonage outside of a Pho shop on University Ave. He politely introduced himself, apparently attracted by my miming of my aikido sensei's shihonage to demonstrate a point I was trying to make to my fellow student. After a short discussion, including my asking about his lineage, he told us of his dojo in the Wilsonian Building (University and 47th) and his training schedule and suggested that we drop by and observe. We did. Unfortunately, he was not there that particular practice, so we watched his students. He had claimed descent from Yagu ryu. What we observed looked exactly like the kihon from Toyama ryu, and none of his students at the time could list Mr. McCartney's teacher[s]. This left us confused, even if we had misunderstood Mr. McCartney, the student's inability to tell us who training him did not sit well with us. We sought instruction elsewhere and finally decided to train with Mr. Robby Pellett.

The next encounter was almost a year later. Mr. McCartney was sponsoring a demonstration. Mr. Pellett was an entrant, so I visited as soon as I was finished with my usual aikido training schedule. After the kata section, Mr. McCartney performed a splendid display of cutting.

I participate in pistol matches during the weekends as well, so I have yet to compete in his later offerings. During the brief openings in my schedule I have observed both the students of the school that I attend as well as Mr. McCartney during these competitions.

From my observations, he is skilled at cutting. But the emphasis seems to be on the cutting, with everything else taking a second seat.

In my opinion, he is equal parts martial artist and business man. Some of his decisions are undoubtably motivated by the need to support himself, and would explain some of his more "showman" activities and claims. Wording like:
NABA has been recognized as THE sanctioning body...
is often needed when appealing to outsiders, and looks tame compared to some of the grant proposals I have read. Having said that, it is still annoying to read advertising.

The following two items are not observations of Mr. McCartney, but of his website:

The commercial aspects of his school can be a bit disturbing... http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/cbsi.html Perhaps one of his students, or he himself, could expatiate on this college, and what separates it from a McDojo, for which it could be easily confused.

His bio, http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/RMprofile12-1-2k.htm, is worthy of attention.

Joseph Svinth
21st February 2001, 06:57
Also note that R. McC. promotes students the old-fashioned way -- they pay him. See, for example, http://www.ishiyamaryu.com/cbsi.html , where one learns that in Ishi Yama Ryu, one can earn shodan in just 18 hours of *intensive* seminars, and all for the low cost of just $1,437, a sum which can be financed through the school.

Kolschey
21st February 2001, 11:51
Via a special arrangement with our sponsorship association, Ishi Yama Ryu Dojo in cooperation with Stonehouse Supplies is honored to offer full tuition and supply financing. We have acquired a special credit line which allows us to offer funding to approved individuals interested in committing to this program of achievement. 100% of all costs can be purchased through this credit program for all your training needs, even your swords

I wonder where I've seen this before.

carl mcclafferty
21st February 2001, 13:12
Scott:

You said you observed, Toyama, Ryuseiken and Shinkendo both in practice and in competition (in and out of Japan). I know Russell, Kevin and Shaun were in Japan a time or two. Don't remember meeting you there at any Ryuseiken or Toyama competitions/practices, when and where was that? I must be having a "senior moment".

Carl McClafferty

Scott Irey
21st February 2001, 21:12
Hello Carl,

I would imagine the reason you never saw me there was because I was an observer in the audience. the first time I saw Ryuseiken was during Golden week in Kyoto a few years back. I had the opportunity to watch Mr. Saruta demonstrate along with several of his students. It was quite impressive I must admit to watch Mr. Saruta employing his craft on what some in E-budo have decided to label "wet floor mats". I have yet to see Mr. Obata perform his craft in person, but have seen his students (direct and indirect) cutting at a few public demonstrations, and of course have seen Mr. Obata perform in taped demonstrations (both professionally produced tapes as well as home videos taken at seminars) And where Toyama ryu is concerned, I have seen several live performances of this art both in and outside of Japan. My most recent opportunities to see Toyama ryu were at Mr. McCartneys tournament, where I watched Tom Smith cut his way to first place in the tameshigiri division for 2dan and above. I also had the opportunity to get close and watch at a very big tournament for Toyama-ryu at Kashima last year. If you were at any of these events I doubt you would have seen me as I only go to watch. I leave the public tameshigiri to those in arts that advocate it.

Nsherrard
22nd February 2001, 12:21
I know that in an online forum, it's absurd to take offense at anything that is said, since posting on the web tends to be the intellectual equivalent of "shoot first, ask questions later." Nevertheless, the post that began this thread particularly grated on my nerves. People seem to take Mr. Skoss's posts the "wrong way" more often than not, so if that is what I am about to do, I apologize for my mistake.
There seem to be two points to the message: one, that that those with a mere 10-15 years of experience and knowledge should not question those rare individuals with greater experience and knowledge (well, to be technical, we should question occasionally, but only when in sincere need of guidance), and two, that Mr. Power and Mr. Skoss are such individuals. I do not necessarily disagree with the points, but with the manner of their presentation.
To begin with, I don't know how old Mr. Skoss is, but if he is under fifty (yes, I am interpreting unnecessarily literally), he should by his own admission keep his thoughts to himself, and if he is over fifty, well, I would be shocked to learn of any opinions he might have expressed concerning budo before reaching the proper opinion-expressing age. However, this was not so bothersome as the apparent comparison of most of the people on this forum to farting ants. It seemed to follow that he himself was a budo elephant. In a later post, he mentioned that "contempt is to strong a term" for someone's comments. Despite this claim, it was a feeling of contempt that I got from the post, and that's what truly irritated me. Oh, he allows for growth, saying that someday we may be worthy, if we "stay the course," but this ends up sounding lame in the face of the ants and elephants comparison.
It is this contemptousness which sometimes comes through in Mr. Skoss's posts and causes misunderstandings. Mr. Skoss may well be excellent at what he does, and of course we should listen when he has something to say, but what if (god forbid) he says something that we are told is wrong by someone who might be considered his equal, or senior? When Menkyo Kaidens disagree amongst each other, who is Mr. Skoss to know which is right? In such an arena, he becomes the ant (as do we all in one given situation or another), but I get no sense of humility from these posts. While humility is often false in the martial arts community, even false humility can be beneficial. One of my teachers, for example, is fond of saying he's a beginner. While we his students and he himself know that in a certain sense this is false, on another level, I know he believes it to be true. Thus I think false humility can betray a certain amount of true humility. My point is simply that it is just as offensive to tell everyone how great you are when you really are great as it is to tell everyone you're great when you aren't. And while my opinion with regards to matters of translation or technique may be inconsequential, I would hope that good manners are fair game whether I'm fifty or not.

Disclaimers:

My use of the word mushin in my subject line is not indicative of any familiarity with the japanese language, zen, or any other area in which mushin might play a part as a word or concept, so NOBODY HARP ON IT ;-)

I don't have even ten years experience in an art, so those 10-15ers are like gods to me.

I definitely should not take all this web stuff so seriously.

Nathan Sherrard

carl mcclafferty
22nd February 2001, 13:15
Scott:

Saruta Mitsuhiro can really cut. No not just cut, but cut will style/technique/kata. If you saw him, you know what I mean. I think that's what sits him above everyone else when it comes to Shizan. Even though I don't train with him anymore, I'm quick to say that he's the best I've ever seen and I've watched the best in Japan and most in America do their thing. But he specialized in making cutting his forte at the expense of kata/kumitachi. Sometimes I'm afraid some of us might be getting into that frame of mind in this country.

I found myself getting into that mind set. Nakamura Sensei pretty much took me to the woodshed in a letter for cutting five goza at once in a public demonstration. Being me I was pissed for about a week. Than I reread the translation and like usual he was right. I've pulled back from public cutting (and I use to do a bunch) to do more work in the kata/kumitachi arena. I know, and most everyone that counts, knows I'm a good cutter and can teach it well. So I only cut at benefits, to test a new sword or to show a student the proper technique.

I will admit that cutting a bunch is attractive to students, brings them in by the droves and keeps them eager to pay for lessons, but I don't live/eat off my teachings (got a full time and a half job) so I have the liberty to allow the "eager to cut, but not dedicated swordsmen" to go away. All styles ought to occassionally cut to check their technique, but let's not give it more credit than it deserves.

Carl McClafferty

Daniel Pokorny
22nd February 2001, 13:32
Nathan,

Never assume that a good martial artist is also a good person. People skills and martial skills are different entities and it's rare to find those that possess and practice both. Lack of the "human arts" is what truly differentiates the good martial artists from the great martial artists......




Negative things are done TO people, Positive things are done WITH people....

Regards to all,

Dan P. - Mongo