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Stevo
15th February 2001, 14:36
Hi. I thought I'd start a thread on tips for teaching ju jutsu.

Not the stuff you learn on generic coaching courses. Not the step-by-step "how to" for teaching a particular technique. I'm talking about that arsenal of tricks that every sensei accumulates. You know the ones...the one-word instruction, the guiding hand, that subtle touch with the little pinky that sends you sprawling across the dojo... Got the idea?

For example, I was once learning a technique that required only one step, but I was taking two. My instructor watched me for a few minutes. Then he quietly trod on my front foot and smiled politely. He didn't say a word, but I got the message. (Deja vu, Neil?)

Let me start the ball rolling. To get a student to move a certain way, simply say, "Do this". Then demonstrate the critical move, very slowly. Or try: "Put that foot.." (tap their foot), "there.." (point exactly to where you want them to place it).

So have a go! We can all learn a lot from this one!

Neil Hawkins
16th February 2001, 00:28
Interesting question Steve, I still have a hole in the top of my foot where shihan's big toe used to pin it to the ground!

I recently completed the teaching grading and was critised for using a "military" format for teaching. The opinion was expressed that whilst some people, most notably male beginners, respond well to the "like this, do that" approach where all techniques are broken down in a number of smaller 'steps' that are gradually combined, many people do not.

I have to admit that the Army did teach me to teach, and I do tend to favour the demonstration, explaination, practice approach. It has worked well for me in karate and weapons training. However at times, especially in our jujutsu when a continual flow without breaks or corners is required, it is better to try and give a whole motion.

An example I come across continually is people who perform sabaki either by leading the feet or the shoulders rather than the hips. I overcame this with one young student by getting him to bring his skateboard to training. I asked him to stand upon it and them perform nagashi. He moved his weight forward slightly, he pivoted his hips, and smoothly slid the back foot around. Perfect. He can now perform nagashi much better as he understands that the hips should control the movement.

Regards

Neil

Rob
16th February 2001, 08:20
If anybody reading this (great) thread is new to teaching I can only give one piece of advise.

Let em make mistakes.

When I first started teaching sometimes my club only did one technique all night. Not becuase I was trying to drill it into them through repitition but becuase everytime I saw someone make a mistake I stopped the whole class to explain again.

Now whilst I try and iron out bad habits as early as possible I've learned that at each level there are different abilities and that sometimes just stepping with the right foot etc is fine and we'll work on centre of gravity and breath control another time..

While I'm here anybody in the UK - or willing ta travel here - fancy getting together for an open seminar thingy ?

Stevo
17th February 2001, 09:25
G'day Neil & Rob!

Neil, I can certainly empathise with the "big toe" thing!

I might have given the wrong impression about the "do this" tip. I don't mean it in the "do this or else and don't ask questions" sense. I use the "do this" command to get their attention, and as a very concise instruction to "follow my lead".

Also, I only use it in specific situations. I'ts best applied in one-on-one instruction at the "skill aquisition" stage. It relates to one skill unit, ie, one movement. The application might be as simple as getting a student to move one foot to a new position, in order to improve their zen-kutsu-dachi. The time lapse from instuction and demonstration, to skill aquisition, is about three seconds, which makes for rapid progress.

Rob, I agree with your valuable advice. Let them make mistakes. I'd like to add a little more to this one.

After the demonstration and explanation, students break up to try the technique you've shown . At this point, the best advice I ever received was - STAND BACK! HANDS OFF! KEEP QUIET! Just watch. This is great feedback for just how good your demonstation / explanation was.

The students will be going through a learning cycle. They try one movement. If it doesn't work they make a slight change and start again. If it works they progress to the next step. The cycle repeats until they aquire the basic movements. If we interupt the cycle, we interupt the learning process.

We should only interupt if a dangerous situation develops, or if progress stops and the student starts looking around for help.

Once the've gained the basic skill, the teaching shifts from skill acquisition to skill development. At this stage, we MUST correct chronic errors. Otherwise we aren't teaching.

The trick is to teach one skill at time, and make them do it, even if you have to modify the technique to suit their capabilities.

For example, you might ask them not to hit their head when doing a forwards roll. If they hit their head, ask them to try again, perhaps more slowly. If they roll without hitting their head, even if they did everything else wrong, praise them for it. They did exactly what you asked them to do.

If they still can't do it by the end of the session, then the instructor is the one that has to improve, not the student!

Robert Reinberger
19th February 2001, 15:06
Originally posted by Stevo
If they still can't do it by the end of the session, then the instructor is the one that has to improve, not the student!While I agree to a certain point with this statement, I think (and hope!) it isn't true always.

I have a student who trains for about one and a half year now. While her performance isn't so bad, she doesn't fit into the group of persons that have big problems moving their body correctly, and I as well as some of her training colleagues have noticed and mentioned a considerable change in her patterns of body movement and feeling, she still has problems doing Migi mae ukemi (Zenpo Kaiten) in a straight line. She always rolls to the right, or, recently, to the left side. Her left roll (Hidari Mae Ukemi - Zenpo Kaiten) is much better.

I've tried all the 'proven' repertoire of tricks, helps and practice drills I've learnt or developed in my about 25 years of teaching 'Jiu Jitsu', as well as new ones, developed especially for her problem. While those brought some results after a big part of a session was devoted to such training, at the next lesson, the same problem appears again. She also insists, that she practices her roll even privately, between the classes. And, once more: regarding other techniques, even Ukemi, her performance is ok.

Thoughtful,

Robert

Bambi
19th February 2001, 15:47
I'm suprised that no british board members ran with Rob's suggestion of a get together in the U.K. Must be that characteristic reserve of the brit's that's preventing them from displaying their enthusiasm in public.. :D

I doubt if I'd make it over for any seminar but I think it's a nice idea. Rob, Maybe you should post the proposal under it's own thread in the Members Lounge? It might get more of a response there.

Stevo
20th February 2001, 15:09
Hi Robert,

You're right of course. There are always exceptions to the rule.

In some cases the problem might be a physical or psychological one. It's interesting that you chose zempo kaiten ukemi as the example.

I've noticed that the students who have the most difficulty in accomplishing forward roll are those who have less upper body strength, especially if they are also carrying a little more weight. Therefore they lack confidence in their ability to perform forward roll for fear of hitting their face. As a result, they tend to over compensate by turning their head and shoulders away from the mat and collapsing their front knee, causing them to perform a "sausage roll" rather than a forward roll. Is this similar to the case you mention?

One way to test for upper body strength is to ask the student to do a handstand (perhaps against the wall for support). If they can do a handstand for say, 3 seconds, upper body strength is unlikely to be part of the problem.

If upper body strength IS part of the problem, it's sometimes possible to improve the roll by removing the fear of injury. I've done this in the past by getting students to do a "no-hands" forward roll on a very thick, soft, padded mat or bag. A "no hands" roll doesn't require strength, but it DOES require them to roll without hitting their head. Strength training might also be part of the answer. It's also possible that the problem is merely one of physical development one, especially amongst children and teenagers.

Regarding the direction of the roll, one exercise that can pay dividends is to ask the student to stand in zenkutsu dachi with one foot on either side of a given line, eg, the join between two mats. Ask them to do the roll, and finish with one foot on either side of the line, facing the direction they rolled from. This gives them feedback on the direction of their roll, and a target to aim for.

It also provides a framework for some very precise instructions. At some stage you should be able to see precisely the cause of the problem. It might be that they are placing their hands incorrectly at the start of the roll, or that their initial stance is too deep, or that their hand/arm/shoulder/hip/knee is off the line altogether.

Back to my original point. Once you've discovered a part of the cause, you must give the student a very precise, achievable instruction on what to change and how, and you must ensure that they do it.

For instance, part of the problem might be that their fingers are pointing forward instead of sideways, therefore they bend their arms, which increases their risk of injuring their shoulder, therefore they collapse their front knee to get closer to the mat, which spoils their direction. So you ask them to point their fingers to the side. This is a small step improvement which everyone can do. If they don't point their fingers to the side, you must ask them to do it again. If they do point their fingers to the side (even if every thing else is wrong), then they've done exactly what you've asked.

Robert, I respect your experience. You mentioned that you've tried a range of excersises. Have you tried the "line" exercise before? If so, did it help? What other exercises have you found useful for teaching rolling falls?

Robert Reinberger
20th February 2001, 20:19
Hi Steve,

thanks for the response.


Originally posted by Stevo I've noticed that the students who have the most difficulty in accomplishing forward roll are those who have less upper body strength, especially if they are also carrying a little more weight. Therefore they lack confidence in their ability to perform forward roll for fear of hitting their face. As a result, they tend to over compensate by turning their head and shoulders away from the mat and collapsing their front knee, causing them to perform a "sausage roll" rather than a forward roll. Is this similar to the case you mention?I know this penomenon, but it isn't the case here. She's a nice young lady in here upper twenties, with a good figure.
One way to test for upper body strength is to ask the student to do a handstand (perhaps against the wall for support). If they can do a handstand for say, 3 seconds, upper body strength is unlikely to be part of the problem.As the problem betters after a big amount of time in one session is dedicated to the problem, I think that doesnt apply either. If it were a a lack of upper body strenght, it wouldn't better after a lot of repetitions. Additionally, her left forward roll wouldn't be so much better.
For instance, part of the problem might be that their fingers are pointing forward instead of sideways, therefore they bend their arms, which increases their risk of injuring their shoulder, therefore they collapse their front knee to get closer to the mat, which spoils their direction. So you ask them to point their fingers to the side. This is a small step improvement which everyone can do. If they don't point their fingers to the side, you must ask them to do it again. If they do point their fingers to the side (even if every thing else is wrong), then they've done exactly what you've asked. I don't use the 'fingers to the side'- format. Instead, I use the "fingers pointing down and then backwards"- format. With this you start this roll at the outer side of your right little finger. Her start is perfect.
Robert, I respect your experience. You mentioned that you've tried a range of excersises. Have you tried the "line" exercise before? If so, did it help? What other exercises have you found useful for teaching rolling falls? Of course I've tried the "line"-exercise. Not only for her, but that type of exercise is part of our regular training for Ukemi. That exercise alone never helped her.

Regarding my "repertoire" of exercises for Mae ukemi / Zempo Kaiten, of course I'm willing to share. All of the following explanations refer to the fundamental Migi mae ukemi, without turnig during the roll or any other variations:

I start teaching this roll from Handachi, left knee on the ground, right leg standing on the sole of the foot (much like the Nukitsuke-position of Ipponme Mae in ZNKR-Seitei Iai and other schools). Of course, the chin is tucked in and the head brought down and to the left side (shoulder, or, better breast). From there the right hand is brought to the mat, with the edge ("knife") of the hand pointing forwards.

1.) I suggest that one tries to do the roll from that position, and after the roll, should try to "land" in exactly the same position, and on the same line. At a later stage, a back roll is added from the end position, that has to end in the original starting position, forth and back and forth and back,...

2.) Normally that isn't much of a problem for most of the students. However, sometimes exactly that slow and controlled manner seems to be hard to be carried out for a student. In most cases I've experienced, it's not so much a lack of strenght in certain parts of the body, but more of a psychological problem; they don't put some tension in the body and use the impetus necessary to roll over. Instead, they let their body slump, much like you described as result of a lack of strenght in the upper body. In that cases I tell them to try "normal rolls" straight over the middle of the back first. It's the kind of rolls that children do, and is called "Purzelbaum" in German. Most people (or should I say: their bodies) quickly remember that pattern of movement practiced so often during their childhood. After some repetitions, I have them try our roll with "the same feeling". That often works.

Other helps I give during that stage:

3.) "Correct feeling": with my hand, I touch them, giving them the exact line on which their bodies should have the main contact with the mat. The line is:
outer side of
a. the right little finger
b. the "knife" of the right hand
c. the right forearm
d. the slightly bent ellbow
e. the upperarm
then
f. the right shoulder
g. across the back
h. to the left hip (backside of the pelvis)

Then they try to make the roll feeling the contact with the mat at exactly that line. This type of help I also use later, with rolls from the standing position.

3.) "Assisting": If the lack of impetus is still the problem, I kneel down at their left side. Then I use my left hand to aid the movement on the right backside of the head, and my right hand on their left shin, adding the necessary impetus. Note: Even with this aid, the student has to start the movement. Sometimes the impetus is surprising to them, and the roll isn't completed very elegant. However, mostly they get the idea behind the exercise. The same procedure, with another emphasis, also helps to teach the prevention of head-contact to the mat, but I haven't encountered that problem very often.

4.) If that still doesn't help, and provided that I have the impression she/he is able to do it without hurting her/himself, something that especially is valid for everything I say from here on (but, of course, also at earlier stages), I proceed to an execution from a standing position earlier than normally. Sometimes, the higher impetus of that roll helps to overcome certain problems.

5.) Special (flying) rolls:
I. wide rolls
II. high rolls
III. wide and high rolls

While number II. and III. is reserved for more experienced students, I let students with average experience sometimes try number I. It also helps to overcome "impetus-problems". In the case of the mentioned student, which's problem with that technique is a psychological one, I suppose, I used the "normal" exercise at first, and later a "special variant" of I.: I separated two mats a little, and had her making the roll over that "hole", without touching the floor.

6.) Another variant of the "line-exercise" that I especially "developed" for that student was to separate a whole group of mats from the rest. That resulted in a "training area" of about five meters in lenght, and one meter in breadth. If she didn't roll (approximately) straight, she would land on the floor.

All that brought results on the respective evenings, but, undoubtedly, at the next session the problem appeared again. I've never experienced something like that before. And, to say it again, that girl does quite well with every other technique. I've now decided to give it a break, and see what time will do.

7.) Later exercises for making the roll more round include practice on the floor, without Tatami, but I think that already goes beyond the scope of this post.

Puh, that was hard for me to put into English! And, of course, it are only the most important parts of "training aids" regarding Ukemi, and especially the beginning stages of Mae Ukemi/Zempo Kaiten. I hope that I haven't forgot to mention any essentials, and , of course, I hope my explanations made sense.

Regards,

Robert

MarkF
21st February 2001, 12:04
HI, Robert, et al,
When a *teaching tips* or especially an ukemi tip thread comes up, it is the forward roll people seem to have the most trouble. I'm no different, as I could take ukemi from nage before I could do it correctly. I have found, though, that once both sides are introduced, that teaching a continuous right/left, no stops actually makes more sense to students. When a student is interrupted in proceeding naturally with the other side, then the confusion sets in.

At least, that is my experience.

My statement/question is in regard to other forms of ukemi, such as a forward flip and turning to take the fall on one's back, with the upper/thoracic back on the mat, but as you go down towards the feet, the lower back and buttocks should not be touching the mat, the mat is hit with both arms, allowing them to spring up some, with the arms and balls of your feet taking most of the stress of the fall. This one I learned in one try, but others at about my level of training could not bring themselves to do it, or did it, and landed horribly on the neck, upper back, and/or hitting the mat late.

For reasons apparent, this seems to frighten some into really not being able to do it. Eventually, most do it, and it seems to come when they realize they are "falling" behind in the ukemi department, when they also realize you have taught them that ukemi may save a life on day.
*****

Another is a running approach to a tori, with a hand grabbing the lapel/upper part of the uwagi, and with a little help from tori, uke takes the fall on the side. Somewhat scary to kids, but much easier to do I've found. Also, those who have realized a *true* kiai, do this much, much more comfortably. Some have that instinct of center early in training which makes this a "do this" approach, and they do it first or second attempt.

After that, the tori is removed, and the center and imagination takes its place. This is not ukemi I like to do myself anymore, as even when properly done, the damage you didn't feel when young, begins to show. In this one, it is basically the same as the above with the tori, but now tori is someone in your head, someone you must "feel" to not feel as if you've thrown yourself through the floor.

Take a running start, reach for your "tori" and fall the same way. This one takes a lot of faith in oneself, and probably more importantly, to the instructor, as there is no one to help you with this fall.

I was too young to remember how it was even taught, let alone how I managed to convince myself to do it, but in these types of ukemi, and to me, they are more important and not a class warm-up. Aside for the advanced who can do them correctly, how does one teach this?

The best I can do is to show them (not fun) or ask another who is proficient in these ukemi, a student you trust will not hurt himself. Don't take this the wrong way, this is not a problem with the majority, but sometimes there are things one should know, either instinctively, or should be learned, before advancing too far, yet they must advance.

I've had three hour classes on the nuances of good ukemi, as at some time in one's life, this may just happen. The roll isn't likely practically speaking, except when doing go no sen or a reverse which puts you into a roll out. A game can be made for kids and young adults, to learn and trust yourself and your classmates not to hurt or get hurt. This is the beginning, I believe, in mutual welfare, that which becomes natural, as doing your tokui waza in your sleep.

For the ukemi with a real person there, one can begin on one's knees so the student can get the idea, but both the others, take inordinant amounts of faith, centering, whether you know what this is or not, you do it, and breathing correctly. Breathe at the wrong time, and it may be a while before you can get some breathe back in you.

So here is the question: How?

Mark

PS: Yes, they can begin by practicing falling backwards bending the knees first, on to their butts, and backwards to the back, or side. This teaches ukemi no kata, but does not prepare them for "self-abuse.":D

Neil Hawkins
21st February 2001, 13:32
Gentlemen,

ukemi is interesting in that in practice we do it to ourselves but in combat it is done for us. I have found that I fall much better when I'm thrown, as I don't have to think about it.

With rolling I tend to combine forwards and backwards together. I start them sitting on one hip as if they've finished rolling and are about to stand up. I then get them to roll back to the opposite shoulder. They should just rock back and forth for awhile so they get the feel of the direction, shoulder to hip, hip to shoulder.

As they get more confident they should rock up to their knees and then back to the point of the shoulder, so the feet go over the head and just touch the floor. Repeat this.

I really emphasize twisting the hips during the roll, so that they end up right on the outside of the hip, rather than on the buttock. This ensures that the spine is protected.

Finally to standing then back to standing, again roll back and forth. This builds confidence rapidly and ensures that they have correct form both forwards and backwards.

I think the secret is 'twisting' the hips sharply as the shoulder touches the ground.

As for 'bridge' fall to me the best way is to start with one person acting as a 'horse' on hands and knees. The ukemi is performed by walking up to the 'horse' putting both hands under as if you have a tray in your arms (palms up). Grasp the 'horses' gi, place your chest on the 'horses' back and then jump over with your legs.

Initially the instructor supports the lower back during the fall so that it doesn't hit the ground. The heels are pulled back against the calves and the hips thrust forward. They should aim to hit the ground with the balls of their feet first, support their own shoulders with their arms on the 'horse'. Then finally let go of the 'horse' shoulders hit the ground, arms come over and hit off.

As confidence builds they speed up and don't need any support. Remove the 'horse' and get them to roll over the head, similar to forward roll but aim for the balls of the feet to hit the ground first, followed immediately by the hands hitting off. The instructor can still support the back as they become confident with this. Two instructors can use a belt (just pass it through the fallers belt and out each side) to keep the hips high, much as they do in a gymnastics class.

The next step is to do it from a hand-stand, then with no hands, but they must be used to hitting the ground first. I usually do lots of throws that end in that sort of fall between the roll and the handstand.

Good throws are koshigaruma, katagaruma and seoinage (done properly!), primarily because there is little forward momentum, it's all down! You can also support the fall quite well.

Steve, have you noticed that hardly anyone else does the sideways roll? I still think this is one of the best for absorbing lots of momentum in the safest manner.

Regards

Neil

Robert Reinberger
21st February 2001, 13:37
Originally posted by MarkF
My statement/question is in regard to other forms of ukemi, such as a forward flip and turning to take the fall on one's back, with the upper/thoracic back on the mat, but as you go down towards the feet, the lower back and buttocks should not be touching the mat, the mat is hit with both arms, allowing them to spring up some, with the arms and balls of your feet taking most of the stress of the fall. This one I learned in one try, but others at about my level of training could not bring themselves to do it, or did it, and landed horribly on the neck, upper back, and/or hitting the mat late.

For reasons apparent, this seems to frighten some into really not being able to do it. Eventually, most do it, and it seems to come when they realize they are "falling" behind in the ukemi department, when they also realize you have taught them that ukemi may save a life on day.Mark, I regard (Ma-) Koho Ukemi (backward-fall) as a fundamental exercise for the technique you described (we call it Sanbon ukemi).

I teach Koho Ukemi that way:

1.) squat down to a Sonkyo - position.
2.) bring your chin down to the breast.
3.) close (or even cross) your stretched out arms nearly horizontally in front of your body.
4.) bring your hips forward, and in the same movement arch your back. This will bring your knees forward and very close to the ground, and your shoulders towards the mat on the other side of the body.
5.) fall back on your shoulder blades (their distance to the ground will be only a few centimeters now), at the same time hitting the mat with both arms ("Ha uchi").

Of course, breathe out during the whole procedure.

After some practice, most people can show this technique like in slow motion, which in my mind is always a sign of control over the body and movement. On the other hand, it is a way to start with this technique from a very low position, in such way reducing the risk of injury, and helping to overcome the initial fear.

Later we do the same technique from standing, walking, or even jumping.

When that is "mastered", and provided the basics of rolling techniques (Kaiten) are also understood, I proceed to the "somersault' - version.

1.) do a handstand (try to hold it at lest a second or two), and from that "fall" over and land in the way described before, of course emphasizing to land on the balls of your feet instead of the whole soles or the heels.

Actually, I've learnt and teach to do this exercise not from a handstand, but a "fiststand", that is a handstand on your clenched fists. As I have problems with my left wrist, I wouldn't be able at all to do it from a "regulary" handstand.

2.) One improvement of this technique is to try not to use the fists, but only the two index fingers. I was taught that way, but seldom use the format, as I feel it only fits for younger people with little weight. The bodyweight is not supported by two fingers during that exercise, of course. It's only the split of a second, that the index fingers are touching the ground. However, it can be sort of a psychological help. The students think they don't do a "free" somersault, when in reality they already do!

3.) The last stage of that technique is to do it competely free, without touching the mat before the somersault in the air.

4.) For the more sporty type of student I sometimes add a special form of rising after that "Sanbon ukemi". It is jumping up from your shoulders, supporting your body with the hands above your shoulders, or, at a subsequent stage, without your hands touching the floor at all. That way, your bottom doesn't touch the Tatami during the whole exercise. It's kind of an exercise from gymnastics, but I don't know the English term for it. Furthermore, it's not a serious part of the technique, more a flashy type of adjunction, but sometimes adds a little fun to the exercise. Sometimes students are so eager to make it work for them, that they already forget their problems with (or fear from) the original technique, take it, and concentrate on managing the follow-up.

I'm not sure if I understand the second question. If it is what I mean, I don't teach this without a partner, and the beginning stages are Yoko Ukemi from squatting, then standing, and finally jumping.

However, we do another "free in the air" form, that is called (O) Chugaeri, and at the beginning stage is basically like a forward roll without rising. It is the same type of fall you take if you are thrown with Seoi nage, for example.

Regards,
Robert

johan smits
21st February 2001, 13:37
Hello Robert,

When you ask me there are two possible causes, in his case, for the problem you have described (not rolling in a straight line).
The front foot is not placed correctly,toes are pointing away in the direction her roll will take her.
The placement of the supporting hand is to close to the centerline of her body.

What may help is concentrating on her hara. Keeping a slight tension in the belly makes one very aware of his or her center and incorrect placement of the feet can be felt in this way any deviation of direction can be felt before the ukemi.

But then one and a half year is not a very long time.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Johan Smits

Robert Reinberger
21st February 2001, 13:55
Originally posted by johan smits What may help is concentrating on her hara. Keeping a slight tension in the belly makes one very aware of his or her center and incorrect placement of the feet can be felt in this way any deviation of direction can be felt before the ukemi.Johan, thanks for the advice. Both reasons you mentioned are not the case. However, the suggestion you gave regarding the concentration on the Hara (or "Tanden", the idea and expression I use more often) is certainly a good one! I will try to make her practice her forward roll with this idea in mind, next time.

Thank you once again, and
regards,

Robert

Stevo
21st February 2001, 14:03
Hi Robert and Mark, thanks for the feedback!

Robert, please excuse my questions, but if I don't ask, I don't learn!

You mentioned that your student rolls very well on one side, but not so good on the other. When you compare one side to the other, what does she do differently?

You also mentioned that she doesn't retain the skill between one lesson and the next, and that she practises by her self. Is it possible that she is practises it the wrong way at home, and undoes all the good work done in class?

A young lady in my class had a similar problem with direction. I noticed that she was re-positioning her "leading" hand a split-second before the roll. When I pointed it out, she stopped doing it and the roll improved.

She also improved her forward roll by practising diagonal roll. This gave her "correct feeling" for the line of the roll.

Regarding some of the other exercises, we also use the "wide" and "high" roll variations.

Another variation on the "line" exercise is to position the mats against the wall. Students have to roll along the mat, as close to the wall as possible. This tends to straighten them up, and also makes their roll a little more vertical, rather than lateral.

I used to start my new students on forward roll from a kneeling position. However, I too found that lack of impetus sometimes caused problems. Nowadays I teach forward roll from a standing position. To me, it seems to produce better results.

One factor I found in teaching forward roll from standing, is that many students tend to put their hands too far forwards, which interrupts the roll. Therefore I ask them to place their hands level with their leading ankle. This brings their weight further forward, which lends a little more momentum to the roll.

Mark,

You asked about "forward flip". If you're referring to O Mae Ukemi (major front fall), we sometimes refer to this as "bridge fall" for obvious reasons.

I've found that the easiest and safest way to teach this is from a squatting position. Students merely fall backwards, keeping the balls of the feet on the floor, and hitting off with both hands, just prior to putting their shoulders on the mat. This can be done very slowly, but they must warm up and stretch their quadriceps first.

Then, we ask the student to do a handstand, and fall towards the rear. They leave the palms of their hands on the floor for as long as possible. At the same time, they arch their back and reach forwards with their legs so as to land on the balls of their feet, with their hips off the floor. This can be done reasonably slowly.

When they can do this, we ask them to try the same exercise, but to remove their hands from the floor and strike downwards with both hands before their feet hit the floor. This helps to develop the timing for the hit. For a fraction of a second they are totally airborne.

Having learnt this, we ask them to do the same exercise, but by doing the handstand on their fingertips only. Therefore, they start to jump a little higher to take the weight off their hands.

The next step is to get them to use only four fingers on each hand, then three, then two, then one. By that time they are jumping high enough to proceed to a no-hands bridgefall.

Strangely enough, we find that students who can easily do a "no hands" bridgefall sometimes have trouble doing one from a handstand. The timing is more difficult, because they are closer to the floor and therefore have less time to complete the fall.

For those students that can't do a handstand at all, we ask them to do half a forward roll and finish on their back, with the balls of their feet down, and their hips, heels and head up.

Stevo
21st February 2001, 14:19
Neil, you're right about sideways roll! I haven't seen this in any curriculum outside of Tsutsumi Hozan ryu.

Mind you, I have seen a rise in the incidence of schools teaching sideways roll, but I put this down to Shihan de Jong's many European seminars.

If there is any one out there that from a school or style that has yoko kaiten ukemi as an integral part of their style, I'd love to hear from you!

Robert Reinberger
21st February 2001, 14:22
Originally posted by Stevo Robert, please excuse my questions, but if I don't ask, I don't learn!Steve,
no need for apologies, here!
You mentioned that your student rolls very well on one side, but not so good on the other. When you compare one side to the other, what does she do differently?She doesn't "keep the direction" and roll on a straight line, but ruther to one side.
You also mentioned that she doesn't retain the skill between one lesson and the next, and that she practises by her self. Is it possible that she is practises it the wrong way at home, and undoes all the good work done in class?That's entirely possible. I've thought about that before, but decided not to encourage my students not to train between lessons.

Did you realize, that your exercises regarding what is called "O Mae Ukemi" in your style is pretty much the same as I do it? So, at least, there are similarities between Australia and Austria, the two countries US- Americans so often tend to mix up ;)

Regards,
Robert

Robert Reinberger
21st February 2001, 14:28
Originally posted by Stevo
Neil, you're right about sideways roll! I haven't seen this in any curriculum outside of Tsutsumi Hozan ryu.

Mind you, I have seen a rise in the incidence of schools teaching sideways roll, but I put this down to Shihan de Jong's many European seminars.

If there is any one out there that from a school or style that has yoko kaiten ukemi as an integral part of their style, I'd love to hear from you!

Steve,

I'm not sure what you mean here. There is a type of Yoko Ukemi Sokuho Kaiten that goes from one arm, over the shoulders to the other arm, instead of over the hip. We do practise it, and it is kind of the fall you have to take when you are thrown with Kaiten nage. The first time I encountered this was in the mid-seventies, during an Aikido seminar.

Regards,
Robert

Stevo
21st February 2001, 14:49
Robert, I think I'm going to have to learn to type faster!

The roll you describe sounds like the diagonal roll I refered to earlier. Our diagonal roll is very similar to forward roll. It's used when we get thrown more sideways than forward. As a result, one hand is closer to the mat than the other. It's very useful for falling out of throws such as tembin nage, especially if you are also holding onto a weapon!

Our sideways roll is totally different. This one is used when we get thrown directly to the side. The fall proceeds from the outside of the leading ankle, to the calf, thigh, hip, opposite shoulder, and finishing on the feet in forwards stance facing the attacker.

It's very similar to backwards roll. The critical difference is that in backward roll, the roll proceeds directly from the foot to the hip, because the force of the attack is backwards. Sideways roll procedes along the side of the ankle, calf, knee, thigh, etc because the force of the attack is directly to the side.

Robert Reinberger
21st February 2001, 14:51
Hi,

something, I thought you might enjoy:

<center>http://www.oejjb.or.at/bilder/maeukemi1972.jpg</center>

Me doing "wide roll", during a demonstration 1972. My later "record" in the Dojo (i.e. with limited run-up and Tatami space) was doing it over 12 people, without touching anybody. Standard, and "record" on grass were over nine people. I impressed my instructor at the military with that, when he tried to teach us "The Judo roll". By the way, end position was rearward Zenkutsu dachi, facing the direction I came from.

<center>http://www.oejjb.or.at/bilder/ochugaeri1972.jpg</center>

Me doing (O) Chugaeri at the same event. Our club used to successfully entertain the public with special Ukemi thrills like that or "4-storey rolls" at demonstrations at that time. :)

Regards,
Robert

Robert Reinberger
22nd February 2001, 18:01
Now, after that (hopefully entertaining) reminiscence of my youthful recklessness (or should I say: flightiness?) :) , I'm afraid, most of the subsequent comments didn't meet the criteria stipulated by Steve in his initial post, so here comes something else, and hopefully more appropriate:

Sometimes a student don't move from his center, but "leads" with his upper body or, more rarely, with his legs, which can particularly be seen when he (ineffectively) tries to counter an attack using an Irimi approach.

In that case I let him try without an Uke (at first), place myself behind the student and lay both of my hands on his pelvis, one on the left, one on the right hip. When the student starts his movement, I push his hips forward, so that he is able to get an idea how the movement should feel. The impetus mostly surprises them. That is, why I start doing it without an attacking Uke. Most students move much better after this experience.

I've learnt that one from a Karate teacher. While I practiced Goju Ryu, it was a Shotokan stylist (at a seminar), if my memory serves me right.

Regards,
Robert

Rob
23rd February 2001, 10:33
Robert,

Damn I thought I'd invented that !!

Actually I have a senior student who has been struggling with the idea of generating power through lowering his hips so I had him push me from one end of the Dojo to the other once just walking, the other time with his hips lowered and his back straight. He got it straight away ....

Oh and 12 people .. wow.. the most I ever managed was 9 and then I discovered beer and gravity discovered me.. The other version we do for Demo's is one person dives low over someone crouching on the floor and I dive over the person diving... looks cools but is dead easy ...

Regarding sideways rolls, is that really that rare ? we do rolls where you 'fall' on your side, roll over your shoulders and then come up facing Uke in a ready stance, I always assumed this was pretty standard..

Robert Reinberger
23rd February 2001, 14:23
Originally posted by Rob: The other version we do for Demo's is one person dives low over someone crouching on the floor and I dive over the person diving... looks cools but is dead easy ...Rob,

that's similar to what I meant with "4-storey rolls". One person started from each corner of the Tatami, and in the center everybody did a forward roll, at the same time, but at different height levels. So what you described would have been labeled "3-storey-roll" by our club in those days. Sometimes, I like those memories! Sometimes we felt like the earlier equivalent of ... :karatekid

Regards,
Robert

Stevo
23rd February 2001, 15:12
Rob,

Yes, sideways rolling falls really are that rare. Could you tell me what style you learn, and if sideways roll is an integral part of it's curriculum?

Robert,

Thanks for the photos! It's always good to get a different perspective.

I too used to dive over piles of people. Then the ju jutsu training started to sink in. I found that I could simply walk around them! Then I started using "win without battle" and simply asked them to move out of the way. After that, I simply used my KI to shift them. Nowadays I don't even have to use my KI - they're out of the way before I even enter the dojo... :laugh:

Seriously though, isn't it strange that always focus on the obstacles instead of the path around them?

Regarding body movements:

Sometimes I place the end of a jo in the middle of a student's chest when teaching entering body movement. They can't step straight forward. Therefore they learn to get off the line of attack. When they get good at it, we start using moving attacks with and without weapons.

We also ask students to perform body movements against moving attacks, with their hands behind their back. It's amazing how good their taisabaki gets when they can't use blocks! It's a good remedial exercise for those occasions where the student's body movement is affecting the rest of their technique.

Neil Hawkins
23rd February 2001, 23:05
Heh, heh, heh.

Last time I was in Perth the boss told me I was getting slow in my old age and managed to stab me repeatedly with his wooden tanto. It's really annoying when an 80 year old man can do that!

.......
On sideways roll, I have found that many European styles do it, but in all cases that I've seen they added it after De Jong had been in the area. I too would like to know of any other style that has it as part of their curriculumn.

......
As for other 'teaching tips', when teaching someone to move into the attack so they can apply a lock or throw, I have tied their belts together. Keep them at just arms length of each other and start slow. It really prevents them from backpedalling. Of course you must remember that you are tied together, I once did a very nice kouchigari and then looked very silly as he fell and dragged me with him!

I know Patrick McCarthy uses a similar exercise in his jujutsu teaching, and I heard that boxers sometimes do it as well.

Blindfold training is another favourite of mine.

Neil

rossl42
1st March 2001, 04:48
Like Steve, I have used a jo or bokken aimed at the centre-line to ensure students move around straight-line attacks. (I might even have copied the method from him!) I have also used the corner of a table for the same purpose. If the table is the right height the 'biofeedback' on making a mistake can be very powerful. :o

Additionally, I like to encourage movement through the hips by asking students imagine that they are marionettes with just two strings attached: one on each hip. This is consistent with how (according to a physiotherapist friend) we actually move. Perhaps someone with knowledge of the human muscular-skeletal system can provide more or better detail.

My marionette analogy has proven quite successful, but I have recently been shown a variation where one imagines one has only a single string attached through the crown of the head. This method has some extra benefits in relation to head placement and does not seem to lose anything in encouraging proper hip rotation.

Neil Hawkins
1st March 2001, 04:54
Ross

Get ready for some weekend training, I'm heading back to Broome. 800kms isn't too big a drive to get thrown around some!

I'll contact you when I get settled, but I'll be there by the 17th of March.

Neil

Rob
1st March 2001, 11:14
Hi all back..

In response to the question the style I study is Shorinji Kan Jiu Jitsu, it was brought to the UK by a Mr Brian Graham who learned it in Australia from a Mathew Komp where I believe he still has a number of shools.

Glad to hear I'm not the only person who's discovered how much more rewarding walking round a line of people is than diving over them (although occasionaly adrenaline outweighs old age and I still have a go !!)

I'm curious what is any reason you gave / were given for learning that sort of ukemi. It was always explained to me as a fear management exercise.

Essentially in a real self defence situation people do not 'fight or flight' more of then they freeze and panic !! One of the ways to overcome this is to put people in stressful situations and make them work through it. One of the ways we do this is what I think of as 'crazy ukemi' diving over tables, bokken , bo being swung at you etc for the first time most people freeze or panic. Eventually they learn to control that response and sadly then most of us get a bit odd in the head and look forward to that stuff.

Like I tell my students now, enjoy the ukemi it's the only bit where no-ones trying to hit you !!

Great threat guys by the way..

Rxx

MarkF
1st March 2001, 11:40
Hi, Robert,
Nice Pics! I'm glad that I'm not the only crazy one around. Those "games" were meant to teach trust, as well. I've spent entire classes (three hours) doing that very thing, and as far as SD, well, everyone falls down, or is thrown from the back of a moving truck at 80 KPH. Ukemi isn't so much a waza for breakfalling as it is a kata.

We had dojo champs in ukemi, but I can't remember mine "record." God, I was maybe thirteen? At thirteen people under him, my teacher took off and ran across our backs. He wasn't that crazy.:)

Mark

Stevo
1st March 2001, 16:04
Hi all, thanks for the feedback!

Ross, it's good to hear from you again! Sounds like I might have to organise a trip up to Karratha.

Regarding the use of the jo for teaching irimi, I can't take credit for this one. I seem to remember getting a fair few pokes in the ribs myself!

You also mentioned using a table. I haven't tried this for body movement, but I do use it for teaching side drive kick, roundhouse kick, and front snap kick. It encourages the students to lift the knee and thrust straight towards the target.

Rob,

Matthew Komp is well known to us. I suggest that the sideways roll has made it's way from us to you via that channel.

Regarding your question on why we teach forward roll (and sideways roll) over a line of people: I'ts fun! The younger students get a real kick out of it. I sometimes use this as a reward for good behaviour during the class.

Sometimes we modify the exercise and use just three people, side by side, face down on the floor. The student has to do a handstand and walk on their hands over them, touch each one on the way, and finish with forward roll. Invariably they start with their dominant hand, which means they end by practising their rolls on their weaker side.

Mark,

Shihan de Jong used to demonstrate sideways roll by falling off a motor bike! Fortunately, he hasn't added this to our normal curriculum....;)

Seems to me that we could start a "teaching tips" forum for ukemi alone! What sort of exercises do people use for developing the tactical application of the art?

Neil Hawkins
3rd March 2001, 00:22
Ok

I say that in te kubi hineri (kote hineri), ude gaeshi and te kubi te nage (shihonage) the palm of the locked hand should be as if it is connected to the top of your back foot. If the distance and angle remain constant in relation to that foot the lock/takedown works perfectly.

One for Mark to comment on, in ogoshi and seoinage the body contact should extend from the hips to the shoulders, feet together and knees bent sufficiently so that your hips are below his centre of balance.

I get them to practice this without throwing, aim to have the hips strike slight before the rest of the body as this helps you get under their centre. Aim to strike with the body rather than step in, turn and pull. Once they get the feel of 'striking' with their body allow them to throw.

This body strike is very important as it breaks balance and can be used in many situations where a throw may not be possible but you need to create an opening (kouchigari is one example). But to take it a step further I utilise the same 'body strike' in jodo. Although I don't actually hit with the body, it does re-inforce the focus as I strike with the jo (or ken). To an extent I use it in punching as well, the body position is different but I try and strike with the entire body, even if the fist is the only point of contact.

So two things to remember from today's lesson, strike with the body then maintain contact during throws and keep the throwing hand parallel to your back foot in hand takedowns. Any questions? :D

Neil

Stevo
3rd March 2001, 08:21
When teaching o-goshi from a right handed attack, I get good results by telling students to position their LEFT hip below the attacker's navel. This puts the two critical points of contact (the right shoulder and the left hip) more vertical. The result: a higher proportion of clean throws.