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Dave Lowry
15th February 2001, 15:42
A contretemps is sparked of late in a nearby forum. I believe it concerned some fellow heading an organisation who apparently desired the trappings, nomenclature, and general aura of a koryu, but whose aspirations towards the fealty and long-term commitment to a real koryu were less impassioned. The discussion isn’t so important as its dilation which is, unfortunately, hardly unique. Claims rather dubious are presented. An authority takes time to make a response nearly as gracious and restrained as it is informed and informative. The counters to his response are far less so, in every way, though more immediate and protracted. The reprove of a second authority appears: your challenges to the first authority are ignorant to some degree, viz. you don’t know, in comparison to him, what you are talking about and shouldn’t really be doing so publicly. The retort of those so remonstrated on e-budo has become as predictable and inevitable as the luxation of Mr. Puffy and Ms. Lopez: I’ve got, they seem nearly obsessed with informing the rest of us, a right to my opinion. Sometimes, as recently, the “opinionator” will readily admit; compared with the horsepower of a Ferrari the authority brings to the discussion, the opinionator’s experience is more in the realm of a poorly tuned Yugo. No matter, he insists. He has his rights to his opinion.

I’m not doubting this. But I would presume to ask the opinionators: how much is your opinion worth? I’m not referring to its value in the marketplace of ideas. I mean, how much is it worth to you? Is it, for instance, more valuable than the opportunity to gain factual information and knowledge?

There are contributors on this site who have a pantload of that information and knowledge, much of which is of interest and value to me. I learn from what they have to say. Sometimes I disagree with them. When I do, I have two choices. I can, in writing privately to them or speaking directly, say, “You’re full of crap on this issue.” Or, I can think a bit before fashioning my responses.

Let’s say someone, oh, Mr. Skoss, for instance, offers a sentiment—let’s avoid budo as an example here and use something important, like cricket—that Australia would have won the ’81 Headingley Test against the English side had it not been for Willis’ middle-stump yorker against Bright in the last over. The notion, in my estimation, is daft. I would avoid the temptation to say so, however. Instead, I might reply, gee, your argument is interesting. And your points are all true; lunch was taken with England down 58-4, and the partnership of 35 taken in the over after the interval by Lillee and Bright brought Australia to 75-8, only 55 short. And yes, as you observe, Mr. Skoss, no Test side had won in that whole century after following on. But how do you account for both Dyson and Marsh hooking at Willis? Could that pair of disasters have set the stage for Lawson being caught behind? And I read a comment earlier by Mr. Amdur, who noted that Lillee was clearly chancing his arm, which gave Gatting that catch at mid-on; do you think that had some bearing on the Test?
Can you opinionators see that I have stunned two birds with a single stone? I have challenged his statement (with facts, not the birthright of my opinion, and without open confrontation) but more importantly, I’ve attempted to elicit a response to take advantage of Skoss’ reputedly formidable knowledge of international test cricket. I challenge, but I’ve also created an environment where he’s likely to continue the dialogue, an environment where I—and other readers—can learn.

To be sure, this second approach will be dismissed as obsequious or toadying. That among the most dismissive will be those whose claims of understanding koryu mentality are most strident and ambitious is both ironic and telling.

This forum offers a remarkable opportunity for exchange and it sure ain’t my place to broker the transactions here. My only point is to ask the opinionators to consider. We all know, and you so frequently remind us, the coin of your opinions are precious. Might you increase your dividends, however, by investing fewer opinions and working harder instead at withdrawing some of the splendid capital that is present here?


Cordially,

Neil Hawkins
16th February 2001, 00:14
Nicely put Mr. Lowry.

I am was taken back to a time when somebody actually could challenge Australia in cricket, a situation we haven't seen for some years!

Regards

Neil

Nathan Scott
16th February 2001, 02:56
Hello Mr. Lowry, thanks for the interesting post.

It would seem the fallout from the Sword Art's forum is being felt all over e-budo.

The issue you bring up is one that is often a source of frustration on some of these BBS's. We all want to exchange (hopefully reliable) information and learn something, but many times an issue is submitted in a confrontational manner, and those that might have the answers do not feel inclined to offer them.

In the dojo, you sometimes find students who seem to want you to "beat the teachings into their head" (no, not literally). They fight you the whole way, expressing their uneducated assumptions and arguing in a passive aggressive manner. That's way too much energy and frustration to spend from an instructor's point of view (IMHO) when there are so many polite, sincere and humble students who would welcome the direction.

As I stated in another forum some time ago here - a logical and productive approach to take in an <i>academic forum</i> is to only post something when you feel you have something of value to contribute to the discussion, based off of your experience or research. Otherwise, think of good questions to ask, and encourage members with more knowledge and experience to contribute back.

The internet is an amazing tool, but it is unfortunately producing an "instant expert/gratification" mentality. A little knowledge definitely is a dangerous thing, especially when you can blast it to the whole world in one keystroke.

IMHO, it is not enough to simply collect knowledge and data - there must be the inclusion of experience to give the information proper context and meaning. This takes time, which in turn requires patience and discipiline.

Ask questions, take notes, and seek additional supporting data (cross reference). Find a good, qualified teacher and confirm your notes with them if possible.

As Mr. Skoss said in another thread - don't be in such a hurry to be an expert; you've got your whole life to gain respect and hopefully a positive reputation.

We're all here to learn something, so let's all contribute to an atmosphere that is conducive to it.

Yoroshiku,

ghp
16th February 2001, 04:03
Hello Dave et alia,

Well I couldn't follow the cricket -- I have a hard enough time with baseball -- not to mention American football. However, I think I was able to cull some useful information for future reference.

"Color me guilty" for not couching my responses to be as educational or less objectionable as they should have been. Someone sent me a private e-mail and quite rightly took me to task, opining that I appear to be a fussy grump. Well, I told him that I agree with his assessment, but added that I was also a curmudgeon! (I think that's a type of salmon :) )

So, I suppose I could have spared everybody this whole round of grief had I just kept my opinions to myself, sat back, and agreed with everything presented.

What have I learned? Nobody wants to be told anything that challenges their ideas. Perhaps I'll go into lurk mode and not de-cloak unless my teacher or art is mentioned.

Now, Dave, if you would please (PLEASE) drop the cricket stuff and go back to budo .... :)

Regards,
Guy
<"engage cloaking device">

john mark
16th February 2001, 11:47
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
you sometimes find students who seem to want you to "beat the teachings into their head" (no, not literally).

Way back when (when I thought I was a decent Kyokushin fighter) I impolitely told S. Oyama I didn't "understand" a technique he was teaching in fighting class. After I picked myself off the floor, he said "Sweat first, talk latter."

Dave, Now I'm really impressed -- Shinkage, SMR, Aikido, budo writer, restaurant critic, cricket man. Wow! Who are you picking to top the AFL?


Best,
John
Forever a Bombers Fan



[Edited by john mark on 02-16-2001 at 06:19 AM]

Kolschey
16th February 2001, 14:26
Guy,

Everyone is prone to have days that test their patience. For what it is worth, I am always glad to read your commentary,even if you are not in the best of moods. I consider it greatly fortunate that I have the opportunity to observe the conversation of experienced practitioners. I certainly hope that this does not change any time soon!

Dave Lowry
16th February 2001, 16:14
Mr. Mark,
Please. You failed to mention my nearly Shakespearean rendtion of "Casey At The Bat" done entirely in Hawaiian pidgin.


By the way, if I'm so freaking talented, how come the highlight of my social season this winter was hanging out at the Bothell, Washington Subway Sandwich Shop with the likes of you and Skoss?

Cordially,

Nathan Scott
16th February 2001, 18:18
Well I couldn't follow the cricket -- I have a hard enough time with baseball -- not to mention American football.

Yeah, I missed the cricket thing too. I ain't used to readin' all that good english all in one sittin!

:D

I like the "sweat first, talk later" ...

Regards,

Warwick
17th February 2001, 06:37
Very nice post Mr Lowry. The chance to read gems like that is one of the reasons I lurk here. We'll get these e-budo guys educated in the finer points of test cricket yet.

But don't gloat yet Neil; not until the current tour of India of over. The last time Australia beat India at home was a LONG time ago.

On the subject of opinions (which everyone is entitled to) I have a rocket science analogy. Everyone is entitled to an opinion about what is in/under the frozen oceans on Europa (for example). Every teenager who has seen a documentary on the Discovery Channel is perfectly entitled to discuss this amoung themselves as much as they want. But if they come into contact with a genuine rocket scientist, who has made a lifetime professional study of the subject, it would be smart (if they have a genuine interest in the subject, and are not just trying to impress everyone) for them to shut up and listen. Almost all my posts have been in the Members' Lounge, because my 16 years experience is far less than that of the people I'm hoping to learn from. Sorry if that seems obsequious or toadying, but it just seems like common sense to me, not to mention common courtesy.

Warwick Hooke

Before you criticise someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticise them, you're a mile away, and you have their shoes.

[Edited by Warwick on 02-17-2001 at 12:59 AM]

arioch
23rd February 2001, 23:31
Mr Lowry


From your post, I'm under the impression that you have said something like: take the opportunity to learn from somebody else by asking questions that don't force them into a corner...go ahead and challenge their opinions, but do it in a way that is productive, rather than confrontational.

However, a couple of the other posts seem to imply the message was: shut-up and listen.

Did I miss something?

Rob Lowry

Dave Lowry
24th February 2001, 15:12
Dear Mr. Arioch,
My suggestion was for a tacit acknowledgement that not all opinions are of equal weight, that not all deserve similar attention, and that those powered by facts and experience almost certainly are more useful than those ignited merely by sentiment or the desire to contribute.
I also hoped to make the point that in the presence of contributors with whole lots of bushels and pecks of facts and experience, the rest of us might be better served contriving to have them share instead of working so vigourously to alienate them.

Cordially,

arioch
24th February 2001, 18:29
Much clearer now : )

Thank you for responding.

Rob Lowry

MarkF
25th February 2001, 11:24
Originally posted by Dave Lowry
Dear Mr. Arioch,
My suggestion was for a tacit acknowledgement that not all opinions are of equal weight, that not all deserve similar attention, and that those powered by facts and experience almost certainly are more useful than those ignited merely by sentiment or the desire to contribute.
I also hoped to make the point that in the presence of contributors with whole lots of bushels and pecks of facts and experience, the rest of us might be better served contriving to have them share instead of working so vigourously to alienate them.

Cordially,

Mr. Lowry,
Of course you are right about opinions, and that we can learn a lot by those who know, but even then, not everyone is satisfied and content with the posts written. Simply, some have questions/statements important or necessary to themselves, something those more knowledgable on a subject didn't include.

For example. In sword, when the discussion drifted (again) to the meaning of iemoto and/or soke, I learned some new meanings for kanji and about terminology I hadn't known, but disagreed with the source for same, to a degree. Wouldn't posting information such as that, and, if it is handy for a message board, to post from where the disagreement came?

We can all ignore those we do not want to answer, and frequently do. Now there is an "ignore feature" in the new software here to ignore posts from certain people permenantly. Sometimes I want to set my own name there, but that is another subject altogether

I will never be satisfied with my level of knowledge, not when there is so much to be learned, no matter how long or how old I am. Frequently, even those doing the "alienating" have gems in them, even if you must sift through the garbage. Ask a homeless person.:)

But as to letting someone as you have described do his/her thing and take what they offer as a freebie to a feeble mind, I agree some opinions are completely out of the question unless you have one equal to that, and have a lot of experience and knowledge in the same area.

BTW: Free speech is never "free." There is a price to be paid when exercising it.:)

Sincerely,