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Nathan Scott
28th December 2009, 04:56
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gavinslater
28th December 2009, 08:22
Hi Nathan,

I think there are many waza in the soden that could be considered koshinage. Eg in Volume 9 there is a technique I would consider koshinage. So I think Takeda Sensei taught koshinage type waza to both Ueshiba Sensei and Hisa Sensei.

Regards,

Gavin

Jose Garrido
28th December 2009, 12:51
Nathan,
The Koshinage technique you are speaking of is part of the Ikkajo no Bu under the name Koshiguruma in Kondo sensei's books and videos. There is also another Koshiguruma in the Nikajo no Bu.

Depending on how the technique in the Ikkago and Nikajo series is done it could be a "Koshinage" using the hips to pop the man up or a "Koshiguruma" where the man floats around the hip. Kondo sensei prefers the Koshiguruma and this is the one he teaches.

Jose Garrido

Nathan Scott
28th December 2009, 18:39
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Ellis Amdur
28th December 2009, 20:55
Nathan - is the technique butt (nage) to front of body (uke) - a la judo - or perpendicular (nage's hip joint) to front of body (uke)? (a la Aikido).

John Driscoll (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?filter[1]=John%20Driscoll&t=14306) makes a pretty good case that aikido's koshinage may be the only technique Ueshiba retained from Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu- derived from a technique called kingukatsugi Neither he nor I (and this is, to be sure, not definitive) were able to find a koshinage in any DR curriculum which had the perpendicular orientation. Hence, my question at the beginning.

Best
Ellis Amdur

Cady Goldfield
29th December 2009, 02:41
If there actually is or was a DR koshinage, I'll be REALLY surprised if it's "judo style" (i.e. back/butt toward uke).

Grant Periott
29th December 2009, 05:01
I have practiced Koshigaruma in both the hip wheel form (uke moves around the hip) and using the hip as in aikido at more than one Takumakai dojo in Japan. The use of the hip is "generally" considered to be less advanced than the hip wheel form. One of my sensei indicated the use of the hip (it certainly was not the butt) was good for particularly strong/heavy opponents if one had failed to effectively apply Aiki in the first instance.

Nathan Scott
29th December 2009, 18:35
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Ellis Amdur
29th December 2009, 20:17
Nathan - thanks. I agree, btw, about the "impractical nature of the perpendicular throw. Unlike a koshiguruma, for example, there are only two points of body contact. It is, essentially, a "hip trip" - (koshi kake) rather than a true koshinage. Taken one step further, it's a kokyunage.
The Yagyu Shingan-ryu technique seems to have a very specific application. As I recall, one pushes the enemy back to a wall, and as they push forward, you trip them with your hip.
If Driscoll is correct, Ueshiba generalized this technique for his koshinage. (As many aikido uke are trained to attack as if they are responding to a push against a wall).
Best
Ellis Amdur

Cady Goldfield
29th December 2009, 21:10
Hm. The reason why I couldn't envision a judo-type back-against-uke kind of hip throw is that DR is so forward-moving in its combat philosophy. Turning away instead of forging into the opponent with kuzushi seems counterintuitive from (what I perceive to be) a DR standpoint. But maybe that's a difference between Takumakai (where Nathan says the koshinage is found) and other lines of DR?

Flintstone
29th December 2009, 22:10
I always felt like it was weird to contort and break your own balance so severely to affect a throw (...)
I do feel at ease while doing this juji koshinage. I just don't feel I'm compromising my posture or balance at all. Actually I feel more balanced (and mobile) than when I sed the "judo style".

Grant Periott
29th December 2009, 23:21
Hm. The reason why I couldn't envision a judo-type back-against-uke kind of hip throw is that DR is so forward-moving in its combat philosophy. Turning away instead of forging into the opponent with kuzushi seems counterintuitive from (what I perceive to be) a DR standpoint. But maybe that's a difference between Takumakai (where Nathan says the koshinage is found) and other lines of DR?

In the technique I believe that Nathan is refering to (Koshigaruma) in the Takumakai there is a side movement to move offline before a chidori (plovers foot) style entry to uke's centre to effect kuzushi before a turn is made to wheel uke around the hip. One of the varitations that I have been taught drops the hip in under uke to pop them over (a form of "koshinage" providing air time for uke) on the turn - perhaps this is what Nathan has seen. It needs to be understood that there often appears to be more than one way to do many of the waza in Takumakai, but the variations are mainly taught as extras around core waza.

Grant Periott
29th December 2009, 23:48
I will have a look at the Aikido Journal issue Nathan is refering to and see if I recognise the technique and people demonstrating it.

Nathan Scott
30th December 2009, 16:05
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Walker
30th December 2009, 17:38
Takumakai Demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBT5uWCbH8Q

Koshi technique at 1:55

Grant Periott
31st December 2009, 22:40
Great video,
I see now that the technique is not at all related to koshigaruma - my mistake!.

It is interesting to note that it appears to have come from the soden books said to have been Takeda sensei's provenance and not Ueshiba sensei's. I have read about how Aikido's koshinage was said to have been from Ueshiba's studies in another ryu, now it seems possible that he derived it from Takeda sensei's teachings. To verify the Koshinage waza's provenance with Takeda I think we would need to ask Amatsu sensei. I would not be surprised if it did turn out to be from Ueshiba sensei.

I am not really qualified to comment about the techniques "real world" effectiveness, however it is an interesting question.

Kendoguy9
1st January 2010, 00:37
Re: Takumakai video. The koshiguruma at 1:54 is the same one we do in the mainline of Daito-ryu. It is in the nikkajo section. We have a number of body to body type of throws in our line of Daito-ryu within the Hiden Mokuroku. I'll try to write more when I have the chance.

Happy New Year!

Howard Popkin
1st January 2010, 14:27
1st technique -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvPEU9mAX5Y

Howard

Flintstone
1st January 2010, 18:21
Takumakai Demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBT5uWCbH8Q

Koshi technique at 1:55
This is what I mean "juji koshi nage". Same kind you find in Iwama Ryu Aikido.

Nathan Scott
2nd January 2010, 06:03
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Ellis Amdur
2nd January 2010, 07:26
The You Tube link in Driscoll's article (which I linked to his name in my previous post) seems to be gone. My recollection of the YSR technique was that it was truly perpendicular (juji). I've been told that Saito's hip twist was partially due to his bad hip - he also threw his hip out on koshinage.

Here's some other problems in truly figuring out what came from where.
1. I've suggested, in Hidden in Plain Sight, that Takeda Sokaku started with core principals and essentially could take any technique and "aiki-fy" it. Therefore, a lot of Daito-ryu, I believe, is the result of someone "transcribing" his improvisations. I also believe that he would take techniques he observed from other practitioners and make them his own.
2. To this end, he had several high ranking Yagyu Shingan-ryu students of his own - before Ueshiba. This could be, therefore, a case of parallel evolution, or Ueshiba learned it twice - once from his own YSR teacher and once from Takeda.
3. No art is pristine - despite all the talk here about the "aikido koshinage," a lot of aikido shihan use a judo ogoshi - they inserted it on their own.
4. Similarly, with all the conceivable cross fertilization, there is no proof either way that the Takumakai might not have later incorporated an aikido koshinage - a number of aikido guys have gone over to Daito-ryu. Heck, the distinction is way too big, anyway. Hisa accepted an 8th dan in aikido in the 1950's or 60's, I believe - and called his organization the Kansai Aikido Club, didn't he?

To be sure, the world will spin just fine on it's axis without any clarification on what koshinage came from where, but it's an interesting little puzzle - sort of like tracing down the Indo-European root of a single word.
Best
Ellis Amdur

Grant Periott
2nd January 2010, 08:41
After reviewing the original article from Aikido Journal cited by Nathan I have to revise my previous statement - this technique is koshiguruma with the hip used to pop uke over.

I take Ellis's point about the potential of techniques being "Aikifyed" from other sources, however with Koshiguruma there appears to be a number of things that point to it coming from Sokaku Takeda sensei originally. While where he got it from may still be questioned by some, I have little doubt that it was within his repertoire. It is part of the Ikkajo set (the version in the AJ article originally cited by Nathan looks like the 5th waza in the Ikkajo tachiai series) and Nikajo (as stated by Kendoguy9 who practices mainline) sets as well as being recorded in the Takumakai Soden. I do still have to check with Amatsu sensei to confirm it's likely origins in the Soden version but at this stage it appears to have come from the books attributed to Takeda. It is very unlikely that it has been introduced later to the Takumakai from an Aikido source, that kind of late introduction would not really be well received.

Flintstone
2nd January 2010, 18:08
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have in my memory that Saito Sensei performed his koshinage by bending sideways at the waist, not forward at the waist as the Takumakai clip shows.
Not meaning to "correct" you, but there are two main themes in Saito Sensei's koshi nage as far as I understand it. The one like in "Takemusu Aikido" cover, and the one in the Takumakai clip. Heck, I must go back to traing with the Iwama guys one of these days!

Grant Periott
2nd January 2010, 23:23
It would be very interesting to train with the Iwama Aikido guys! Perhaps I may get the opportunity some day.

But for now I have enough on my plate with DRAJ!

Flintstone
3rd January 2010, 00:29
It would be very interesting to train with the Iwama Aikido guys! Perhaps I may get the opportunity some day.

But for now I have enough on my plate with DRAJ!
Oh, you'll notice the influence of O Sensei in how Iwama Ryu and Takumakai are so close technically. Or that's what I've been told by Iwama guys.

Nathan Scott
3rd January 2010, 00:34
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Josh Reyer
3rd January 2010, 10:35
Morihiro Saito, two koshinage variations versus yokomenuchi at 6:53.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeSrySq9SPQ

I can see what Nathan means by "bending over sideways", but this is merely because the technique is slowed down for demonstration and pedagogical purposes. Tori is taught to get full extension (and thus extend uke). Done at speed, it looks much more like the Takumakai clip Doug Walker posted above. Unfortunately I've been unable, in a cursory search, to find any youtube clips of "ki no nagare" koshinage against a yokomenuchi.

Grant Periott
5th January 2010, 00:18
Hi Nathan,
in answer to your question on which book/what provenance the technique is from, within the Soden books I have been advised that it is volume 9 technique 17. This book is attributed to Sokaku Takeda sensei. I will still ask Amatsu sensei regarding the technique when I see him later this year. I will also ask Kawabe sensei his views.

The technique that is in the AJ article is from the Shoden (not soden). In the Takumakai the Shoden 118 is equivalent to the Hiden Mokuroku of Mainline Daito-ryu. Senior teachers within the Takumakai learned this set of techniques from the former headmaster Tokimune Takeda sensei. It is clear that the origin of his technique would have been from his father Sokaku Takeda sensei.

So for me at this stage the evidence is pointing towards Takeda sensei for the origin of Koshigaruma or as you have described in Aikido "Koshinage".

Nathan Scott
6th January 2010, 04:12
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Flintstone
6th January 2010, 13:17
Sekigawa-ryu jujutsu has a technique called Uragaeshi that is close in principle to Iriminage (...)
Interestingly enough, I own a series of books by Claude Falourd Sensei, a student of Mochizuki Sensei, on the then called "Aikido Jujutsu" of the Yoseikan where the Irimi Nage section is called "Ura Gaeshi"... Uhmmmmmm...