Shooting as a Martial Art

[gatactical]

As far as the 'war arts' are concerned, I believe shooting should rank near the top. Any other opinions?

Does anyone have any information on Hojustu Ryu other than the stuff being taught by Jeff Hall?

[Lance Gatling]

Shooting became a martial art recognized by the new, second generation Butokukai, the capstone martial arts organization of Japan, for Japanese teenagers in 1942 or so. This was part of the war mobilization effort.

Competitive shooting is a very intense, repetitive ritual, and shooters cultivate a mindset within that ritual to control their thoughts and bodies.

Shimazu Kenji teaches a shooting style in complete armor, I forget the name. He tried to recruit me for it when he realized I have military experience and pointed out some similarities with Western musket drills.

I have references in Japanese for many of the old shooting ryuha, and they cover everything, including many of the skills required to make powder, etc. As far as the shooting itself goes, the schools taught disciplined unit fire in addition to individual skills.

[gatactical]

Thanks for the reply. I have been a competition shooter since 1978. The obvious ties between shooting and traditional martial arts is quite apparent. I have been a traditional martial artist for some time (1968) but I feel there can be more of a connection between the traditional arts and the 'modern technique of the gun'. Mr. Hall has been a martial artist for some time as well and as a police officer was exposed to firearms. I have spoken to him at length about his hojustsu but we seem to be at an impasse regarding techinique. However, I feel that there is room for more than one school but do not want to seem as if I am 'stealing' anything from him.

[Hissho]

Welcome Gary. With your screen name, are you an LEO/tactical type?

You might be interested in this thread as well:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42136

Jeff Hall is a former firearms instructor out here in Washington State. His "Hojutsu Ryu" is not a traditional art. My understanding is that it is his creation combining karate and firearms, which was "approved" by his karate master as a martial art.

To each his own.

I find the few things I've seen - like on Youtube, that is - of traditional warrior musketry to be fascinating. You'll find some interesting illustrations in Noel Perrin's "Giving Up the Gun," though I am told you can pretty much ignore the scholarship in that book.

Maybe Lance can kick down some publicly available stuff he might have....hint, hint!

[mw17]

Shimazu Kenji is a master of the Morishige ryu. He demonstrates the art regularly around Japan. I believe Philip Hinshelwood a police weapons and defensive tactics instructor in Australia has trained directly under Shimazu sensei in both Morishige ryu and Yagyu Shingan ryu Heihojutsu.

Matt White

[George Kohler]

Hi Gary,

Welcome to E-Budo. Good to see a Savannian on here. I'm not originally from Savannah, but I met my wife, who is from there, while I was stationed on Hunter AAF. I visit there every year to visit my wife's family.

I'm a little confused. Are you looking for a modern firearms or an older system associated with Japanese martial arts?

[gatactical]

Well!! Seems I stirred up a litte interest. Let me see if I can answer some of the questions ... Yes, I am an LEO/Tactical guy. Spent 27 years on the Savannah PD and retired last March - 25 years on the SWAT team with 13 years as Commander. Am now the Chief of Police at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah.

I met Jeff Hall about 3-4 years ago at a conference and we discussed his 'new' hojutsu. I was very interested as it seemed to bring together two of my favorite pastimes - shooting and karate. I have been a martial artist since 1968 and a shooter since 1965. However, it appeared that Mr. Hall was not aminable at all to adapting his system from the 'Weaver Style' of shooting to allow the 'Isoscles' stance. We had some very 'spirited' via e-mail and telephone. I haven't heard from him in some time. Ahh, what might have been ...

I would really like to compare and contrast some of the older traditional shooting systems with the stuff I teach. I will do some more research and try to post some of the results.

Thank you all for your time and information.

[Jason Chambers]

Gary:

When speaking of the Weaver and Isoscles, how do you feel about the Isoscles as a combat shooting posture as opposed to bladed postures as used in systems like CAR?

[Lance Gatling]

Morishige-ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njbOPl7BIWk
Longer set - note Shimazu sensei off to the right, directing the firing unit. At 2:12 you'll see the elevated firing position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3DB73jewGo

Stills, but they go off on other topics later

http://images.google.co.jp/imglanding?q=%E6%A3%AE%E9%87%8D%E6%B5%81&imgurl=http://www.coconut-crush.com/dv/dvdjkt/SPD-7506.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.coconut-crush.com/dv/b-124dvd.html&usg=__Jm6pi3utxV2bTG11tZ75DvBFTO4=&h=469&w=334&sz=237&hl=ja&sig2=8VDikqcQy91Lcldb8VGAuQ&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=yjpNicBamIveYM:&tbnh=128&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25E6%25A3%25AE%25E9%2587%258D%25E6%25B5%2581%26hl%3Dja%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG%2 6um%3D1&ei=lRlsS4e9N8yOkQXn8_zuAw&lr=&safe=off&sa=G&um=1&start=0#tbnid=yjpNicBamIveYM&start=0

[Hissho]

Lance

Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

Any that draw and shoot?

[Lance Gatling]

Lance

Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

Any that draw and shoot?
These are all matchlocks, not given to quick employment, I reckon. Although the pirates did it!

I would have to dig around, but am busy in a more modern gun deal, maybe later. But I would not hold out much hope - most of what I've seen was massed fires of maneuvering groups of men on the battlefield, as you see in the firing lines advancing, and the cartwheel.

Lance

[Duanew]

Gary:

When speaking of the Weaver and Isoscles, how do you feel about the Isoscles as a combat shooting posture as opposed to bladed postures as used in systems like CAR?

You didn't ask me but I will weigh in with my opinion. Siddle's book "Sharpening the Warriors Edge" chronicles the effects of stress on the body and the resulting effects on shooting stance (Westmoreland and Burroughs studies)-Those who are trained to shoot Weaver revert to Isoscles under stress. Yup-I know there are those who say it doesn't apply to them.
Look at all the cop shooting videos. Count how many are using the Weaver and how many use the Isoscles. All but a few are the "I" I've only found one where the "W" is used. Do what I did a few years ago-call the departments and see what they train and you will find out that no matter what they train the majority will shoot from the "I".
If you are interested I did a study 10 years ago on the effects of stress on accuracy, training methods to increase shooting rates during stress and the effects of "Combat" breathing. If you want the short version check out Siddle and Grossmans site Warrior Science and you'll find an article by me on the subject.
http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/combatsciencesblog/?cat=4
If you are interested you can access them at the Calibre Press archives or e-mail me and I will send them to you.

Duane

[gatactical]

I've been a PPCT insturctor for many years and know Bruce and Harland Westmorland. I have read Harland's paper and seen some of the vidoes he filmed for his study. Beside being an unnatural position, the Weaver was based on competition and NOT combat as many folks believe. They have manufatcured reasons why the Weaver is a combat stance - the bladed position protects you better, etc. The 'classic' Weaver has seven different things that have to be done for it to be correct. That is NOT going to happen under the stress of a lethal threat. As far as systems like CAR, some folks can do anything if they practice enough. The natural position you are in when shooting from an Isoscles is far batter as a fighting stance than just about anything else. Another item many 'combat handgun instructors' seem to forget are the high end competition shooters. If someone is paying the bills and feeding their children by shooting, I feel very strongly that we should pay close attention at what they are doing and how they are doing it - and NONE of them shoot a Weaver stance. That alone speaks volumes.

[Hissho]

I might also add that the bladed position specifically exposes the arm holes in your vest to a shooting threat. It is also weaker if the engagement ends up being at contact distance.

Matthew McNamara offers this in the latest issue of Tatical Edge:

"...the best shooting platform or stance is
the one you are in when you need to make
a surgical hit, and this will probably not
be the stance you drill on a flat range, on
steady ground upon which you are stationary.
You must be able to make shots around
teammates and innocent people, while in
the most precarious of positions, and while
moving to a point of tactical superiority."

[Shingan]

Hi Kit,

In Morishige ryu which is based on naval bujutsu (Shimazu Kenji) we only use the cannon and hinawaju today.

Regards,
Philip



Lance

Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

Any that draw and shoot?

[Hissho]

Actually, do any currently practiced ryu use the old handguns? The pic in the link Lance provided showed the one guy.

Do any of these ryu contain "room clearing" type techniques? CQB for when battlefield lines were broken? I suppose they would just transition to tachi/kodachi. Any forms where they go from gun to tachi?

[Shingan]

Actually, do any currently practiced ryu use the old handguns? The pic in the link Lance provided showed the one guy.

Do any of these ryu contain "room clearing" type techniques? CQB for when battlefield lines were broken? I suppose they would just transition to tachi/kodachi. Any forms where they go from gun to tachi?

Kit,

I cannot comment on the other two traditions Seki ryu and Yo ryu. In Morishige ryu Shimazu Shihan has not instructed me nor have I seen the old handgun (Tanzutsu) used. That's not to say it's not used.
There are no "room clearing" techniques in Morishige ryu like we (police) experience in modern LE tactical training.
Shimazu Shihan has instructed me on transition from hinawaju to tachi then to kacchu yawara when the gap is closed.
I have practised/trained both 'live fire' and 'dry fire' with the hinawaju and
I have studied the following kata, Ihanashi no kata. Hizadaihanashi no kata. Chuhanashi no kata. Tachihanashi no kata. Gyakuhizahanashi no kata. Moroorihanashi no kata. Koshihanashi no kata.
The licences are, Shoden, Kirigami, Mokuroku, Kaiden.
Regards,
Philip

[gatactical]

You are right Kit or rather McNamara is. You get what you got. As someone who has been in his share of altercations I can speak from experience, you have to be prepared for anything at anytime. But, we should train toward what we will do naturally or instinctually and not try to 'manufacture' a response. The Weaver stance is a manufactured position built for competition and not a fighting platform.

[Duanew]

The Weaver stance is a manufactured position built for competition and not a fighting platform.

The advent of the Weaver came about at shooting competitions attended by Jeff Cooper. When Weaver showed up with his new stance and waxed everyone it was decided it was the way to go. This was the 50's I believe and his revolutionary two handed hold was beating all those holding the gun with one hand-and the "Modern Technique" was born.

Duane

[gatactical]

That's correct. Deputy Jack Weaver figured out that in this case two was better than one. The problem, if you want to call it that, is that Cooper in all his wisdom, developed a 'system' based on a technique that was configured for competition and not combat. While many initially used the Weaver in competition, some taught it as the next iteration in 'combat' shooting. This is where the 'problem' begins to surface. The Weaver has too many 'things' going on to make it a truly effective combat tool. If you have enough time and appropriate cover the Weaver will work very well. But under the REAL stress of an up close lethal confrontation, the stance generally falls apart. You may be able to train your way out of a instinct driven response under certian situations (like blinking when someone strikes at your face) but when the chips are down, all the natural/normal/instinctual responses will drive the train. As I have stated before, if the Weaver is a good as it is supposed to be, then why don't the top competitive shooters use it or the best instructors teach it? Cooper offered a tremendous amount of information for combat shooting but like any other martial art, its time to make the changes necessary to improve it.

[Duanew]

Of the officers I know trained in weaver NONE has ever taken the stance under a shooting situation-always instinctivly taking the Isoc. position. Like I said before I have one video of an officer using a Weaver in a shooting. In that case the suspects are fleeing a robbery where on suspect has already been shot by the off-duty officer. He follows the others outside and then take a weaver position-the suspect vehicle is dozens of yards away. He takes a kneeling position in the street and fires.
I use it as an example of stress and positioning. When the threat is close and immediate you respond instictually. When the threat is far away and less immediate you may revert to your training.

Duane

[gatactical]

Makes a lot of sense to me and I have seen the same thing. Again, distance and time played a part in using the Weaver. As far as kneeling is concerned, the Weaver 'type position' seems to fit that a bit better because of the body mechanics

[D.S. Brown]

Gentlemen,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Weaver also one of those "accidents" that came about because Jack Weaver had been previously injured, and holding the gun in this method was comfortable and successful for him, and ergo endorsed by Jeff Cooper?

Best,

Dave

[gatactical]

Never heard that. The only 'story' I have heard was that he had the idea to use both hands on the gun to allow him greater control and hence, accuracy.