What is the meaning of it all? [Archive]

sheb

25th February 2010, 14:16

I visited e-budo quite seldom in the last month and also now I only read few posts, but especially since the "BSKF-thing", I have the impression to read several posts saying (more or less direct) that it's quite stupid to be a WSKO member (anymore).

So all the things happened or not happened within BSKF/WSKO make me sad and I hope that there will be a satisfactorily solution (at least for the most) and that such things will not happen again anywhere else (but probably it will happen again, just because we are only human). As most others I can't decide who's right and who isn't, because I don't have enough information and also if I had all information it would be difficult/impossible to make a objective decision.

My point is: Am I stupid to be a WSKO member anymore - really?
This question isn't meant seriously - but what does all these things/problems mean for WSKO kenshi - especially for those who are not British? Does it mean anything? Up to now I'm not sure whether it means something for me or whether it should mean something for me (more than: "OK - it's just human... go on..."). Should we - as non-British - change something (in our mind or anywhere else) or should we going on as before and wait for whatever will come?
Are there any consequences for us (in general or personally)? If so, which?

As fas as I have seen, only the present issues are discussed, but what about the future?

dirk.bruere

25th February 2010, 15:05

My point is: Am I stupid to be a WSKO member anymore - really?

Since nobody else has answered, I will.
It depends what you want.
If you just want to learn techniques, do grading and meet fellow Kenshi at international event then WSKO is no problem. Head down, obey orders, enjoy yourself.

However, if you really want to know what the "ideal world" we are allegedly striving towards is all about, then read what Tony Kehoe has to say in the other thread. Because after a few years you might start to question what it is really all about once you put the physical art aside.

Kari MakiKuutti

25th February 2010, 17:55

What you really want or need?

1. WSKO:
Access to the skills, expertise and knowledge of senseis who have each devoted their life to Shorinji Kempo.
Curriculums, teaching materials, technical videos ...
To meet and train with your fellow kenshi nationally and internationally

The disadvantages and advantages of big international organization

OR

2. Independent
Train only in your own small circle in your own home club in your own hometown in your own country.
To have limits to your development set by local conditions and local teachers
To be free to do only whatever you want and only what makes you happy at the moment, every moment
No organization, it´s rules or help

The first is possible in Shorinji Kempo outside Japan only through WSKO.

But for most serious kenshi there is no choice: they must be part of the organization, support it, develop it.
Be constructive.

You can take all that you can get but in the end it is up to you: how much you work for it, how you train, what you understand, how you teach.

Nobody else does it for you.

Ideal world: is it a distant dream or are you trying to make the wold better step by step.
Both are needed, maybe.

chriswebster

25th February 2010, 18:02

Hi Sven,

I think it's worth me saying that not everybody in the UK feels the same way as some of the more active participants in discussions. There are kenshi who would like to continue with WSKO and who do not expect to be able to contradict or influence the decisions that are made by WSKO relating to the martial art that they own the rights to.

Perhaps this is obvious and doesn't need saying but from reading the discussions it seems to suggest we all feel the same way in the UK. This is not the case.

David Dunn

25th February 2010, 18:09

Chris,
I've kept quiet, against my instincts, for 14 months, while people with the opposite point of view have had free rein.

David Dunn

25th February 2010, 18:14

The first is possible in Shorinji Kempo outside Japan only through WSKO.

Are you sure that there are only people in the UK of the same mind? Your argument is sophistry. To support an organisation who you have fundamental disagreements with just because of what you can get back in return is unprincipled.

Kari MakiKuutti

25th February 2010, 18:45

To support an organisation who you have fundamental disagreements with just because of what you can get back in return is unprincipled.
I don't have fundamental disagreements with WSKO.
You do. I understand your position even if I do not agree with you.

Nina

25th February 2010, 21:16

If you just want to learn techniques, do grading and meet fellow Kenshi at international event then WSKO is no problem.
This is an excellent way of developing yourself and those around you and the fundament for a "world in peace and happiness".

tb055

26th February 2010, 00:53

What you really want or need?

1. WSKO:
Access to the skills, expertise and knowledge of senseis who have each devoted their life to Shorinji Kempo.
Curriculums, teaching materials, technical videos ...
To meet and train with your fellow kenshi nationally and internationally

The disadvantages and advantages of big international organization

OR

2. Independent
Train only in your own small circle in your own home club in your own hometown in your own country.
To have limits to your development set by local conditions and local teachers
To be free to do only whatever you want and only what makes you happy at the moment, every moment
No organization, it´s rules or help

The first is possible in Shorinji Kempo outside Japan only through WSKO.

I would say that you have misrepresented the possible options available to those who leave WSKO. For example if the BSKF left WSKO (and I'm not party to any thinking or decisions about this, this is purely hypothetical) they are a large national federation with a decent of number of kenshi of 5th Dan and above. There is still an organisation to help. I haven't even mentioned the possibilities of hooking up with others who have left the WSKO fold. What about the French breakaway group, what happened to those Italian clubs who where kicked out of WSKO? There is still the possibilty of building international bonds. In fact you could visit whoever you wanted, I sure a trip to Japan or the US to visit the Byakuren Karate group would be fun, if somewhat bruising :D.

JL.

26th February 2010, 01:56

Gassho!

For example if the BSKF left WSKO […] they are a large national federation with a decent of number of kenshi of 5th Dan and above.Obviously I haven't done a headcount (nor do I have the means to), but I personally know of no one above 4th Dan currently considering leaving WSKO (if such plans exist among the, well, dissatisfied group in the BSKF).

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

dirk.bruere

26th February 2010, 02:08

Gassho!

Obviously I haven't done a headcount (nor do I have the means to), but I personally know of no one above 4th Dan currently considering leaving WSKO (if such plans exist among the, well, dissatisfied group in the BSKF).

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

I do, as well as (possibly) Sensei Mizuno.
An alliance of SK breakaway groups could be quite a substantial international organization - including groups in Japan. Not something I particularly want to see, though.

Kari MakiKuutti

26th February 2010, 05:53

Sort of like my enemy´s enemy must be my friend ?

colin linz

26th February 2010, 06:22

I have no doubt an alternative organisation could be set up to compete with WSKO. It might not get there overnight, but given a little time it is a possibility. The real question would be why? What motivation would there be in doing so? As long as WSKO meets the needs of its members it will be safe.

From my observations, people will generally support governing bodies even when the bodies are not meeting their needs. However, eventually, something will happen that will trigger a rapid change in support from the members and an alternative governing body established.

Robert Liljeblad

26th February 2010, 06:56

John Ryan

26th February 2010, 07:52

My point is: Am I stupid to be a WSKO member anymore - really?

Not necessarily.

What we have to remember is that by being a member of an organisation, we are aligning ourselves with that organisation's values and conduct. We are not children, who do what their parents tell them to; we are adults, who are responsible for our own decisions. If we feel that an organisation to which we belong has values and conduct with which we disagree, and cannot agree, and if this situation will not reasonably be resolved through internal actions of ours, then in order to be true to our own independence we should leave such an organisation.

As I say, if we feel that... You may, or you may not.

And this is by no means unique to WSKO; it applies to any organisation, even organised society: you can opt out and live in the woods or you can endorse the principles of cooperation and involvement in society.

It's not a matter of what you can get out of an organisation, it's whether you, personally, with your beliefs and your values and your sense of right and wrong, are comfortable with any organisations of which you are a member. Of course you don't have to bother with making a moral judgement, but if you choose not to then you forfeit some moral credibility - you're essentially saying "I devolve my moral responsibility to someone else". Which invalidates your right to take part in a moral debate at all.

And one more thing - making a decision rests on having information, which in this case even now is quite sparse and incomplete, owing to problems of libel and problems of communication and unwillingness from certain parties to disclose information. But... lack of information is no defence. Pleading ignorance of tax laws won't get you out of prison for tax fraud (unless you're a Minister of Parliament, hehe, oh dear I'm going to the dungeon now). In a world where information is readily available, we have a responisbility not only to make a moral decision but to make an informed moral decision, as much as we can. So if your position is "I choose not to make a moral decision owing to lack of information", consider the inconsistency of opting out of the moral decision while not opting out of the membership. Remaining an active member of an organisation is an active decision, and your position is really "I choose to forgo investigating my decision and instead stand by it blindly/purblindly".

Btw, my repeated use of "you" is not directed at anyone; it just makes it easier to read than if I used "one".

Rob Gassin

26th February 2010, 08:55

I'll propose a different way at looking at relationships to that proposed by John.

For me, I am happy to keep a relationship if the benefits outweigh the negatives. A few examples:

1. Despite being strongly morally opposed to capital punishment, i could still have a relationship with a family member to is a supporter of this type of punishment.

2. Like most Australians, I am morally opposed to American style gun culture. This has not stopped me befriending some of my colleagues from the Southern states of the US who consider guns an integral and important part of their culture and morally oppose any attempt to restrict their use or ownership.

3. As a member of sports clubs, I have often morally opposed criteria used to select the team but this has rarely, if ever, led me to leave the club.

John's first paragraph reads - I quote:

What we have to remember is that by being a member of an organisation, we are aligning ourselves with that organisation's values and conduct. We are not children, who do what their parents tell them to; we are adults, who are responsible for our own decisions. If we feel that an organisation to which we belong has values and conduct with which we disagree, and cannot agree, and if this situation will not reasonably be resolved through internal actions of ours, then in order to be true to our own independence we should leave such an organisation.

Firstly, i do not think that belonging to an organisation means aligning ourselves with it's values and conduct - many Catholics do not align themselves with the church's values regarding contraception but still consider themselves Catholics. The reason why - there are other values and conduct that they can align themselves to - the positives they draw from the organisation outweigh the negatives.

Questions to John,

1. Are you opposed to WSKO financially supporting most international Federations and clubs?
2. Are you opposed to WSKO sending high ranking instructors to the UK for training camps?
3. Are you opposed to WSKO having quality control on the standard of your BMs?
4. Are you opposed to WSKO making it possible for you to attend training camps and taikai in Japan and in many other countries?
5. Are you opposed to WSKO having any control on the use of it's intellectual property outside of Japan?

The reason for the last question is that from here in Australia, I cannot see how BSKF can expect to be independent of WSKO but be the representative of WSKO in the UK. (This is not to say that I am not aware of, and sympathetic to, the dilema the BSKF finds itself in at the moment)

I guess the ultimate question, every british kenshi will have to ask him/herself is: Does WSKO's behaviour in the current 'soap opera' outweigh the benefits I draw from being a member of the organisation? Some will decide 'yes' and others 'no' and for everyboby, life will go on and in 10 years, most won't even give it another thought.

Cheers,

John Ryan

26th February 2010, 09:33

Good response, Rob.

For me, I am happy to keep a relationship if the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Absolutely - this is the pragmatic response we need to make to idealistic tendencies whose whims we would otherwise submit to. But it implicitly says the benefit to myself. It doesn't always apply if we were to consider the net benefit [to everyone].

A few examples: [...]

These are subtly different to what I was getting at. Of course we will never agree with 100% of any other person's thoughts or behaviour, and to take a strong moral stand with respect to everything will disenfranchise us from society ("To the woods!"). I may not agree with every opinion my branchmaster has (many bottles of wine bear witness to this!), but I don't leave the branch because of it. However, there are important matters and unimportant matters. If I joined a knitting club and the teacher believed that Politican A was better than Politician B, it's unlikely I'd leave. If the teacher advocated this as part of the class, I'd very possibly leave. I didn't join knitting to be drip-fed a political opinion, and my continuing to attend could easily be seen as an endorsement of that opinion. Looking at the class, you'd have people who believed B was better who would leave in a huff, and you'd have people who believed the teacher was right, who would stay on. And fairly soon you'd have a political knitting class... and in all likelihood the knitting would take a smaller and smaller role in the class as time went by until it became a cabal. Anyone who just wanted to do knitting would join a different club without the multiple agenda.

Or suppose you joined a knitting club that said "hold the needles this way" as part of its stated philosophy, while the chief teacher held them a different way and ignored any protests of hypocrisy. You'd probably wonder what on earth was going on, and find a club that practised what it preached.

Firstly, i do not think that belonging to an organisation means aligning ourselves with it's values and conduct - many Catholics do not align themselves with the church's values regarding contraception but still consider themselves Catholics. The reason why - there are other values and conduct that they can align themselves to - the positives they draw from the organisation outweigh the negatives.

I'd say religion is a suspect example - here belonging to the wider church is an integral part of the religion, not a convenience of organisation or an exploitation of the economies of scale. To disaffiliate from the church would be tantamount to disavowing the religion (I'm no Catholic, so a more informed view here would be welcome).

To my questions:

1 - This is fine by me. Clubs and Federations pay dues to WSKO; makes perfect sense for WSKO to allocate the money back.

2 - ! Certainly not. Did I say somewhere that I was...?

3 - Thorny one. It's not clear what is meant by quality control, or on what matters it is applied. One for a new thread, if you like!

4 - See 2)

5 - Loaded question again. What WSKO does with its intellectual property is its own business. I'm not aware of WSKO having any intellectual property other than a logo/brandname and a series of publications though.

I guess the ultimate question, every british kenshi will have to ask him/herself is: Does WSKO's behaviour in the current 'soap opera' outweigh the benefits I draw from being a member of the organisation?

I still don't agree with this. It's a purely selfish consideration - in that the question is versed in terms of benefits accrued to me versus detriments accrued to me. Practising SK is a big enough part of most people's lives for the consideration to be more than this.

Rob Gassin

26th February 2010, 10:26

1 - This is fine by me. Clubs and Federations pay dues to WSKO; makes perfect sense for WSKO to allocate the money back.

The problem with this reply John is that the money WSKO spends on Federations and Branches comes in a large part from the Japanese Federation. In other words, WSKO Federations do not pay their own way.

I still don't agree with this. It's a purely selfish consideration - in that the question is versed in terms of benefits accrued to me versus detriments accrued to me. Practising SK is a big enough part of most people's lives for the consideration to be more than this.

John,

what makes you think, you know what is good for anyone else? The only decision you have to make is what is right for you. I'm sure others can also decide what is best for them. You write:

'But it implicitly says the benefit to myself. It doesn't always apply if we were to consider the net benefit [to everyone].' How do you know what the net benefit [to everyone] is? For all you know, what other consider to be a 'benefit', might be different from what you do. The above quote would have been more accurate, if you had written 'But it implicitly says the benefit to myself. It doesn't always apply if we were to consider the net benefit [to everyone] - as I see it.'

Cheers,

John Ryan

26th February 2010, 10:58

Sorry if anyone's bored of this...

I don't really have an opinion on WSKO's use of Japanese money to fund non-Japanese federations. It's their choice. It's like tax - there's no rule that tax received from one activity should be invested back in a similar activity. There's a collection of money from various sources, a distribution to various sources, and it's not meaningful to try to link the sources and the destinations together; it's two buckets, not a series of mini-buckets. Clearly it shows that they think the international organisation is worth investing in. It would be more interesting to ask the Japanese kenshi what they think about some of their fees and contributions going towards international WSKO Federations.

I didn't realise acting in good faith and thinking of other people were so obnoxious :) We can never be sure what effect our actions will have, but that's no excuse not to try. If my family and I fell into a river, I wouldn't think about how easily I could myself to safety, I'd try to get everyone to safety. But I certainly wouldn't agonise over whether I was in a position to decide what was best for them and conclude that I should do nothing except help myself.

Rob Gassin

26th February 2010, 12:14

John,

acting in good faith is never obnoxious, but sometimes it's misguided.

We obviously disagree, you like to think you're alturistic, whereas I think alturism occurs rarely, if ever. Professors of philosophy struggle with the issue the alturism, therefore I do not think we'll solve it here :laugh:.

The main reason for my initial reply to your post was to point out that, as an outsided, looking at the situation in the UK, it strikes me that many BSKF kenshi seem to be obsessed by negatives ( big ones I grant you) and ignore the positives of WSKO. What I was trying to achieve was to reconceptualise the negatives from being the dominant issues to being some of many issues.

With regards to the focus on negatives, I'll point out that Kari Makikuutti and Robert Liljeblad appear to see things in a similar way to me.

At any rate, from my perspective, this particular discussion has run its course. I just hope my input has been positive and helpful to some at least.

Cheers,

John Ryan

26th February 2010, 12:38

Hi Rob,

I think you're absolutely right - the tone has been very negative on e-budo, and it's been fairly negative in the UK as well. Unfortunately this hides a lot of hard and constructive work that is being done. I guess it's always going to be like that when a divisive event occurs and no one wants to back down!

I feel quite constructively about it all though. I haven't particularly posted as such, mainly because I've been trying to express my opinion regarding what one should do, for the small amount that it's worth. It's difficult to say much for various reasons, so I'll be broad. I think there is a great opportunity to develop SK in Britain (hence my thread on having a good structure in an organisation). There has been a lot of shaking up - as things settle, we have a chance to repair elements that had become or been found to be broken and build new elements as well. So I'm actually very positive, whatever happens regarding WSKO. I believe the main strength is that very many of the people who practise SK are kind, smart, thoughtful and sensible. This can only be positive when we look to the future.

Sorry, Sven, for hijacking your thread.

David Dunn

26th February 2010, 12:54

Absolutely John. I'm quite upbeat. I think we'll be able to proceed in a constructive manner.

To Rob's points. I have thought a great deal about these things over the last few months. I know that I have been fortunate, but I have learned pretty much everything I know of Shorinji Kempo from Mizuno sensei, and his senior students at Mayfair branch. 90% of my training now is in my branch, and 90% of the rest is at seminars and other dojos in the UK. I cherish training week-to-week with the other Cambridge kenshi above all. None of this needs to change.

We have the odd WSKO seminar here, maybe every four years. However in the meantime we have had a constant flow of superb instructors from Japan who are friends of Mizuno sensei. Will they still come to train with us? I guess time will tell.

JL.

26th February 2010, 13:04

Gassho!

Hmm, the atmosphere has become a lot more positive here, in the last few days. Already the result of a less restricted information policy?
I guess, this is the perfect time to suggest everbody now go to the movies and watch Invictus. Preferably together, as far as geography allows. That should improve the mood even further. :)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

sean dixie

26th February 2010, 13:12

Part of Shorinji Kempo, a very important part are the links that we form with each other. Many of us older kenshi have formed friendships throughout the world - perhaps this "is the meaning of it all?" Like John and Dave I too am upbeat (although a good talking too from John a couple of weeks ago helped;) )

The BSKF have links throughout the world, despite a campaign from WSKO there are many Shorinji Kempo instructors in Japan who will engage with us still as they remain good friends with Sensei Mizuno. I think these links and friendships will out.

John Ryan

26th February 2010, 14:36

Group hug! :D

And...

All together now...

"Deep within each man - "

dirk.bruere

26th February 2010, 18:58

Group hug! :D

And...

All together now...

"Deep within each man - "

And that was another thing that rather depressed me about WSKO.
I preferred the old "lets all die for the emperor" style song.
Barring that, some heavy rock or techno.
Maybe the new WSKO song could be "Eye of the Tiger".

Ewok

26th February 2010, 22:40

The BSKF have links throughout the world, despite a campaign from WSKO there are many Shorinji Kempo instructors in Japan who will engage with us still as they remain good friends with Sensei Mizuno. I think these links and friendships will out.

Kaiso's "its all about the quality of the people" springs to mind :laugh:

What is painfully ironic is much of the SK philosophy is about fighting/working against the system by creating meaningful relations with other people. End of the day the spirit of Shorinji Kempo will win out over the rulings of the Shorinji Kempo organisations demands - people who know Mizuno Sensei know his character and know what sort of person he is, and the trust that has been made through cooperation in teaching and practice will prove to be stronger.

Kari MakiKuutti

27th February 2010, 11:49

And some have lost their trust in him. Real trust is difficult to build up but easy to destroy.

dirk.bruere

27th February 2010, 11:59

And some have lost their trust in him.

And others their trust in WSKO

colin linz

27th February 2010, 21:00

So are there any clear pathways for the future mapped out yet? It appears that some are siding with WSKO, while others with TM. It appears that some of you want/need a constitution that WSKO will not support. There seems to be 3 options available.

1 Everyone reunite and join WSKO
2 Some remain with WSKO while the remainder form alternative organisations like those of France and Italy.
3 Those that won't support WSKO under the current situation leave and take up another activity.

I'd like to think that there could be some discussions with a little give or take on both sides. I don't hold much hope for this option though. Feelings seem to be pretty hot all round, and WSKO doesn't appear interested in discussing the matter any further.

chriswebster

27th February 2010, 21:24

I'd like to think that there could be some discussions with a little give or take on both sides. I don't hold much hope for this option though. Feelings seem to be pretty hot all round, and WSKO doesn't appear interested in discussing the matter any further.

I can't really see why WSKO would be interested in discussing the matter further. Shorinji Kempo is controlled by them. The organisation isn't a democracy regardless of people's opinion about if this should be the case. They have stated their decision regarding Sensei Mizuno and now it sounds like on the new BSKF constitution too. Ultimately the BSKF is a very small fraction of the number of kenshi training in the world (roughly 0.05% I believe). Given this why would they risk damaging their control by giving the BSKF any level of independence which other federations/kenshi could see as sign that they could do the same.

I can understand why people would be unhappy about this situation but I believe the rights held by WSKO mean that either people choose to follow them or choose to stop training in Shorinji Kempo.

I'm reading between the lines a bit here but it seems that that may have been made clear by WSKO today.

colin linz

27th February 2010, 21:57

I fully expect WSKO to maintain their course. I was just stating that I would like to see a little more effort to not waste so many resources.

The fact that WSKO isn't a democratic organisation has no bearing on their leadership style. There are no barriers to being non democratic, yet still consultive. I spent 14 years in the military here, of course the management style was very autocratic at times, but they also understood the value of consultation and mediation. I have no axe to grind with regard to the UK. I plainly don't know the facts regarding what is going on. It just strikes me a little odd that an organisation formed to build human bonds and relationships would so easily cast them aside.

Obviously WSKO has evolved over the years. It now wears a number of hats. It has moved from spreading an activity and ideal world wide, to that of a protector of the intellectual rights. Sometimes it appears that the latter is done at expense to the former.

WSKO have the right to manage themselves as they feel fit. They can be as autocratic or consultive as they see fit. In the end they are just a body that is designed to meet the needs of its members and support the growth of Shorinji Kempo. In the end the members have the final say. They will either stay, or move on. I've been involved with Shorinji Kempo here in Australia since 1989, in that time I've seen it atrophy into insignificance because of poor leadership. I would hate to see this at an international level.

David Dunn

27th February 2010, 22:48

I can't really see why WSKO would be interested in discussing the matter further. Shorinji Kempo is controlled by them. The organisation isn't a democracy regardless of people's opinion about if this should be the case. They have stated their decision regarding Sensei Mizuno and now it sounds like on the new BSKF constitution too. Ultimately the BSKF is a very small fraction of the number of kenshi training in the world (roughly 0.05% I believe). Given this why would they risk damaging their control by giving the BSKF any level of independence which other federations/kenshi could see as sign that they could do the same.

I can understand why people would be unhappy about this situation but I believe the rights held by WSKO mean that either people choose to follow them or choose to stop training in Shorinji Kempo.

I'm reading between the lines a bit here but it seems that that may have been made clear by WSKO today.

Chris,
the BSKF is the second largest WSKO federation after Indonesia, and has 35 years standing.

Why would we have to stop training in Shorinji Kempo? This is a point which people don't seem to understand. Shorinji Kempo Unity doesn't hold any rights to the techniques and philosophy. Doshin So didn't even claim to have invented them himself. Unity has the rights to literature, photographs, corporate logos and so on, but not the activity. Think of FIFA, who are the world governing body for Association Football. They don't have rights over volleying, one-twos, how to make a wall against a free kick. In fact, you don't have to be a member of them to set up a team, a league, a cup etc.

Colin's post came in while I was writing. It appears to me that the intellectual property stuff has become a stick to beat existing members with, in particular to threaten people not to leave.

This campaign has two objectives;l) Use and actively communicate to the public the Shorinji Kempo mark and logo symbolizing and proving the reliability and values of our activities; and 2) constantly improve what Shorinji Kempo offers (such as quality leaders, liberated and broad-minded education programs and enriched services) to live up to the Shorinji Kempo brand. The WSKO plans to actively hold seminars designed to put these objectives into action starting from FY2010.

We will begin with the seminars for WSKO regular group members, which is an important strategy adopted by the WSKO to rapidly grow as an organization.

The core part of the WSKO members comprises regular group members, and to increase the number of regular group members and to enrich their activities would help rapidly grow and develop the WSKO. When regular group members send their representatives to the seminars and be certified as meeting certain criteria for intellectual property management capability, the WSKO will delegate to such members a certain authority to proceed with intellectual property management and applications.

Since this stuff started, it has become MORE difficult, not less, to promote Shorinji Kempo. There has been so much kickback against the soen, having to buy licenced dogi at great cost, taking Kongo Zen away, that to push Shorinji Kempo as an intellectual propery organisation to the fore is ill-advised. We have put this case repeatedly for several years. The method of choice for resolving the disagreement is to organise education programmes, not to discuss the problems.

Colin is quite right. It isn't about democracy, or not democracy, but about leadership. Being so utterly hardline with unpopular directions is not likely to keep an organisation together. I think that this organisation used to have organic mechanisms for keeping it together, namely that we all supported the simple ideas of Kaiso, and wanted to make genuine bonds with each other. There appear to be increasing instrumental mechanisms, historically the fate of any bureaucracy, which by its nature becomes disconnected from its rank-and-file. The answer would be to find ways to reconnect, rather than ways to impose the message. To Chris's point, the management really ought to be interested in discussing issues.

Also, today, WSKO sent a letter saying that they would announce their decision on March 30th.

How did you arrive at the 0.05% figure?

chriswebster

27th February 2010, 23:06

How did you arrive at the 0.05% figure?

I believe (though am not 100%) that there are roughly 1,000,000 kenshi in total. So saying that there are roughly 500 kenshi in the BSKF would give 0.05%. It could be wrong but it's still a small percentage.

What exactly will WSKO give their decision on in March? If I'm understanding what I've heard correctly they have rejected the new BSKF consitution already. Is this correct? I apologise if I have misunderstood :)

David Dunn

27th February 2010, 23:56

I believe (though am not 100%) that there are roughly 1,000,000 kenshi in total. So saying that there are roughly 500 kenshi in the BSKF would give 0.05%. It could be wrong but it's still a small percentage.

That many may have joined since the beginning, and I think the usual number cited is 1.5 million. The last official WSKO figures I saw had the BSKF at around 800, and very definitely the second largest, but a massive way behind Indonesia, which is comparable the Japanese federation.

What exactly will WSKO give their decision on in March? If I'm understanding what I've heard correctly they have rejected the new BSKF consitution already. Is this correct? I apologise if I have misunderstood :)

No idea.

Panu Suominen

28th February 2010, 05:43

Why would we have to stop training in Shorinji Kempo?
Because the name 'Shorinji Kempo' is trademark and it is unlikely that WSKO would "renegade" organisations to use the same name. Why would one even want to use the name after leaving the organisation? I think the intellectual property the Unity holds is mostly about deciding what is 'Shorinji Kempo' and what is not.

colin linz

28th February 2010, 06:39

Do you need to call yourself Shorinji Kempo to train in Shorinji Kempo? There are a number of organisations that still teach it, but don't call themselves Shorinji Kempo. For that matter there are a number of branches that teach Shorinji Kempo, call what they do Shorinji Kempo, but aren't members of WSKO. Although I will admit that what's happening in Indonesia is somewhat unique. I'm not advocating that this should happen. I'm just recognising that this could and has happened. There would certainly be a cost via the lack of technical development through WSKO, but this would be overcome in time, just as WSKO has developed their technical resources over time.

Panu Suominen

28th February 2010, 07:00

Do you need to call yourself Shorinji Kempo to train in Shorinji Kempo?
[..]
There would certainly be a cost via the lack of technical development through WSKO, but this would be overcome in time, just as WSKO has developed their technical resources over time.
After that time would it be Shorinji Kempo or would it be something else?

colin linz

28th February 2010, 08:15

More than likely it will change. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will be inferior, just a different flavour. For that matter I see a change in techniques we do today to those I originally learnt. They still have the essence of Shorinji Kempo, but are at the same time different. I think this is a fairly natural expectation with everything.

Steve Williams

28th February 2010, 08:50

Ok

Dave mentions the letter from WSKO, they actually said that they rejected the new constitution as "not approved for satisfying the requirements for regular group member"
Also "Further deliberations are required for correct judgement"
They also said they would give judgement by March 3rd not March 30th as Dave said.
I would assume that they need to talk with the board of directors of WSKO so there is no doubt for them?

The Dogi issue is a big point.
The problemn for us is not the dogi cost (which is actually reasonable) but the exhorbitant import and duty costs we have to pay are the main problem.
Hopefully this new "blueeurope" dogi will help with that.

Lastly it is clear that WSKO will look very badly on any breakaway organisation using the name Shorinji Kempo....... (talked about copywrites etc...)
As I have said before the techniques may be the same, even the names of the techniques, but the name of the "art" will not be Shorinji Kempo.

Ewok

28th February 2010, 09:06

There seems to be 3 options available.

1 Everyone reunite and join WSKO
2 Some remain with WSKO while the remainder form alternative organisations like those of France and Italy.
3 Those that won't support WSKO under the current situation leave and take up another activity.

Thats not options, those would be likely outcomes. There is only really two options available -

1. Clear communication is given about what has happened, what will happen, with clear reasons given why and how this came about.

2. No communication is made, and gag orders remain.

David Dunn

28th February 2010, 09:31

JL.

28th February 2010, 09:57

Gassho!

Although I will admit that what's happening in Indonesia is somewhat unique.What's happening in Indonesia?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz

28th February 2010, 10:04

Gassho!

What's happening in Indonesia?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.
They have a massive amount of kenshi. They were big before WSKO came into existence. As a result many have never joined WSKO. It is something WSKO have been working hard to rectify for the last few years.

Anders Pettersson

28th February 2010, 20:31

That many may have joined since the beginning, and I think the usual number cited is 1.5 million. The last official WSKO figures I saw had the BSKF at around 800, and very definitely the second largest, but a massive way behind Indonesia, which is comparable the Japanese federation.

Jus to add some numbers.

According to materials from this summer (WSKO General Meeting 2009 in Bali)
There was 1005 Active kenshi in UK, the third biggest country after Japan and Indonesia. After UK we have Italy with 713 active kenshi, USA 707, France 638, Spain 536.

We didn't get any number of active kenshi for Japan and Indonesia, but from material from 2005 Japan had aproximately 92500 active kenshi and Indonesia 40000 active kenshi.

Number of branches (2009 material) is:
Japan 2950 branches,
Indonesia 231,
USA 31,
UK 22,
France 21,
Italy 21,
Brazil 16,
Spain 11,
Sweden 10.

As for the relatively low figure of branches in Indonesia in relevance to the number of active kenshi that is beacuse they often have many "dojo" within the same branch. I think they are catching up on this and get more branches officially recognised (number of branches in 2005 for Indonesia was 176).

The "big" figures (more than 1.5 million members) often mentioned is total members who ever joined, not active members.

/Anders

David Dunn

28th February 2010, 20:46

Jus to add some numbers.
According to materials from this summer (WSKO General Meeting 2009 in Bali)
There was 1005 Active kenshi in UK, the third biggest country

Number of branches (2009 material) is:
UK 22,

There was a big push a couple of years ago to inactivate kenshi who hadn't trained for a long time. That accounts for the difference in numbers who paid their BSKF subs and the WSKO figures.

We should be over 30 official branches by now, but, er, there are several dojos under the same branch still in some cases :)

JL.

28th February 2010, 20:47

Gassho!

Hmm, wonder why these numbers weren't published here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45261) …! ;)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

David Dunn

28th February 2010, 20:51

Gassho!

Hmm, wonder why these numbers weren't published here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45261) …! ;)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Obviously there are people on WSKO's records, marked as active, who didn't pay their BSKF subs last year.

JL.

28th February 2010, 20:59

Sorry, we posted at the same time – I was replying to Anders-sensei's post as well, and should have made that clear. :(

JL

Anders Pettersson

28th February 2010, 21:16

Gassho!

Hmm, wonder why these numbers weren't published here (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45261) …! ;)

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Well I didn't have the papers with the information at hand then. :)

/Anders

David Dunn

28th February 2010, 21:18

Well I didn't have the papers with the information at hand then. :)

/Anders

It wouldn't matter. You have to pay your BSKF subs to be a BSKF member, and get your vote :)

Anders Pettersson

28th February 2010, 21:35

It wouldn't matter. You have to pay your BSKF subs to be a BSKF member, and get your vote :)

Well I never mentioned anything about BSKF members, just how many active Shorinji Kempo kenshi was registered in the UK. ;)

/Anders

David Dunn

28th February 2010, 21:39

Well I never mentioned anything about BSKF members, just how many active Shorinji Kempo kenshi was registered in the UK. ;)

/Anders

This is serious thread drift. If the discrepancy is say 25% (using total numbers of 800 vs 1000), do you think that's the same everywhere? I presume most of the extras are are people who joined but didn't stay very long, but have stayed on the books. What is the proportion of adults to kids in other countries?

Steve Williams

28th February 2010, 21:40

Well I never mentioned anything about BSKF members, just how many active Shorinji Kempo kenshi was registered in the UK. ;)

/Anders..... ;) :D .......

JL.

28th February 2010, 21:47

This is serious thread drift.Then put this stuff in the thread where I explicitely asked for it (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45261)! Please. :) :) :)
You can always link here …

JL

Anders Pettersson

28th February 2010, 22:03

Then put this stuff in the thread where I explicitely asked for it (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45261)! Please. :) :) :)
You can always link here …

JL

If I find the time. ;)

Why don't you do it? :)

/Anders

Anders Pettersson

28th February 2010, 22:10

This is serious thread drift. If the discrepancy is say 25% (using total numbers of 800 vs 1000), do you think that's the same everywhere? I presume most of the extras are are people who joined but didn't stay very long, but have stayed on the books. What is the proportion of adults to kids in other countries?

I think that more branches clean their attendance sheets quicker now since we pay membership fees according to number of listed members.
In Sweden I think we usually have a few more members in our internal membership numbers, since a few people don't stay around to get registered with WSKO (they neve hand in the photo for the form, or something like that, so the Membership Application can't be sent in).

In the WSKO material from 2009 it says UK had 900 adults and 105 kids (under 13), it varies a lot between different countries. Quatar has 53 adults and 51 kids. Many countries have no kids at all. France had 609 adults and 29 kids, Italy 593 adults and 121 kids. Germany 198 adults and 50 kids.
Spain 530 adults and 6 kids, Portugal 150 adults and 75 kids. Just to mention a few.

/Anders