UK Shorinji Kempo

[Steve Williams]

We have just been informed of two important pieces of information relating to Shorinji Kempo in the UK

1) That the British federation is hereby dissolved, all branches must now report to WSKO If they wish to still be part of the shorinji kempo organisation.

2) That Mizuno sensei is hereby "expelled from the world shorinji kempo organisation".


Both these pieces of information bring sadness for us here, but in light of current events they are not unexpected.

[David Dunn]

We have just been informed of two important pieces of information relating to Shorinji Kempo in the UK

1) That the British federation is hereby dissolved, all branches must now report to WSKO If they wish to still be part of the shorinji kempo organisation.

Just briefly, for information. WSKO has no authority to "dissolve" an unincorporated association in the UK. The only authority it has is to stop recognising us as a regular group member. The BSKF is still a functioning organisation. There will be a public statement from the BSKF later.

I would just like to note the treatment that this organisation metes out to its cadres of keen volunteers, who have dedicated up to 35 years in service of the organisation. In Mizuno sensei's case it is 46 years.

[colin linz]

Sorry to hear the news. I must say that it doesn't surprise me. While beating something with a big stick can be a short term problem solver, sometimes it just creates longer term problems.

[stevenm]

We have just been informed of two important pieces of information relating to Shorinji Kempo in the UK

1) That the British federation is hereby dissolved, all branches must now report to WSKO If they wish to still be part of the shorinji kempo organisation.

2) That Mizuno sensei is hereby "expelled from the world shorinji kempo organisation".


Both these pieces of information bring sadness for us here, but in light of current events they are not unexpected.

Steve

In that case could you please re-instate my recent post on the matter

[Steve Williams]

Steve, if you want to re-state it then do so.
Bear in mind what we discussed in e-mail though.

[stevenm]

Steve, if you want to re-state it then do so.
Bear in mind what we discussed in e-mail though.

Steve

Please hold while I check with my legal team

[dirk.bruere]

So, will this forum discuss all versions of SK, or only the WSKO approved variety?

[dirk.bruere]

I forgot to add, I wonder how you will feel about Ade being your new boss?
Because the "real" BSKF will now be dominated by South Coast, which means the biggest bums-on-seats Sensei will rule.

I assume you're listening in Ade?

[sean dixie]

Now there's a question for Steve and Anders :D:D:D

I expect both untill WSKO place a nice little sub-clause in their next constitutional tinkering.....

Actually, why haven't we had any of the Italian or French break away groups tried posting?

[stevenm]

So, will this forum discuss all versions of SK, or only the WSKO approved variety?

Dirk

Interesting thought

Presumably those that are not WSKO Shorinji Kempo will change the name of their style

Hopefully they will continue to post on here for the 'comedy value':laugh:

[David Dunn]

Now there's a question for Steve and Anders :D:D:D

I expect both untill WSKO place a nice little sub-clause in their next constitutional tinkering.....

Actually, why haven't we had any of the Italian or French break away groups tried posting?

We have. I'll try to dig them up later.

[dirk.bruere]

Dirk

Interesting thought

Presumably those that are not WSKO Shorinji Kempo will change the name of their style

Hopefully they will continue to post on here for the 'comedy value':laugh:

I imagine the style will be something like "Kongo Zen Shorinji Kempo".
Or if WSKO get's *really* nasty, "Diamond Zen Shorinji Kenpo" although as somebody noted, the Kanji for "Shorinji Kempo" is also used by a Kung Fu style in this country (UK) without WSKO getting uppity about it.

[Indar]

Steve

Please hold while I check with my legal team

The High Court has ruled that defamation on internet bulletin boards is akin to slander rather than libel.

Mr Justice Eady said that the comments were likely to be considered as 'fair comment' i.e. they cannot be considered as defamatory if they are posted without malice and represent the posters honest views: "I referred to common themes in the postings, such as that of 'bullying' other users and making 'threatening demands' for money. That is classic fair comment territory and, in the light of the modern authorities, it is inconceivable that a jury would find any of those who expressed such a view 'malicious' let alone all of them...

http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room/room/view_article.asp?name=../articles/5176-Bulletin-Boards-Slander-Or-Libel.htm

[Steve Williams]

This forum is for "Shorinji Kempo, The Art of Doshin So"

while some would say that what we are practicing has changed from "the art of Doshin So" due to the recent WSKO changes (I'm not one of those by the way) this will always be the forum which is "Shorinji Kempo, The Art of Doshin So".......

If/when the name changes "Shaolin Kempo" anyone? Then it will not be "shorinji kempo".

Of course any styles practicioners are welcome to post here, and those of the "non-WSKO whatever kempo" will also be welcome, in fact some of them may be more knowledgable in "shorinji kempo" than some of the newer "WSKO shorinji kempo" practicioners.

[dirk.bruere]

... in fact some of them may be more knowledgable in "shorinji kempo" than some of the newer "WSKO shorinji kempo" practicioners.

Especially if they are 8th Dan!
Which brings me to another point of wild speculation.
I wonder how many SK friends Sensei Mizuno has in Japan that might jump with him? I guess we will find out soon enough.

Still, I expect the new art to be called "Shorinji Kempo" since it is a generic term. I seem to recall that Doshin So was forced to call SK "Nippon Shorinji Kempo" because "Shorinji Kempo" was already claimed by some other group(s).
I wonder whether "Doshin So Shorinji Kempo" is copyrighted? Or copyrightable. Or maybe just go the French way with "Real Shorinji Kempo"

[Jeremy Williams]

The thin end of the wedge, I wonder? What next? Japanese only, and obedient ones at that?

I am truly saddened that the Honbu has handled this so badly. If they can't sort out a storm in a teacup, how the hell do they imagine they're going to make a real difference in the greater scheme of things?

Anyway, my sympathies to all the truly dedicated kenshi who have given so much to SK in the UK over the last 30 years. But just remember what my old sensei used to say: if you can't join them, fcuk 'em!

PS: I guess the good news is that I won't have to bother dragging a dogi over with me in the summer; least not an official one...

[Steve Williams]

Both "sides" handled this poorly.

[David Dunn]

Both "sides" handled this poorly.

I have to disagree Steve. The committee, the treasurer, the president, the constitution steering group have managed to keep the BSKF intact, through 14 months of pressure from WSKO and the south coast faction to dismantle it, and have had to be resilient to innuendo, insinutation, direct threats of legal action and physical violence. I think it's been a sterling effort.

[sean dixie]

Thanks Dave :)

[PeterL]

Very sad news indeed. I am sorry to hear it has come to this.

Sincerely,

Peter

[Steve Williams]

Very true Peter, the biggest emotion is sadness, not, as some may think, that of back slapping happiness.

To Dave and Sean, I think that many people did make sterling efforts but in my opinion, I would think that inviting Mizuno sensei back (and encouraging it) to train while on a ban from training would be considered handling it poorly.

[Indar]

I have to disagree Steve. The committee, the treasurer, the president, the constitution steering group have managed to keep the BSKF intact, through 14 months of pressure from WSKO and the south coast faction to dismantle it, and have had to be resilient to innuendo, insinutation, direct threats of legal action and physical violence. I think it's been a sterling effort.

My knowledge of this is very limited, however I believe that a number of dojo's outside the South Coast intend to stay within WSKO; if this is correct then the claim that this is about the South Coast vs the BSKF is unfair, and possibly libellous (or at least slanderous :)).

[sean dixie]

My knowledge of this is very limited, however I believe that a number of dojo's outside the South Coast intend to stay within WSKO; if this is correct then the claim that this is about the South Coast vs the BSKF is unfair, and possibly libellous (or at least slanderous :)).

That's true Indar. I know Steve is. Durham will obviously and perhaps one or two more...

[Steve Williams]

Actually Indar there are at least three branches outside of the south coast who have already shown their support for WSKO, I do not know how many more.

Dave, I leave it to you to alter your post or I may have to edit if it is thought to be libelous.

[dirk.bruere]

My knowledge of this is very limited, however I believe that a number of dojo's outside the South Coast intend to stay within WSKO; if this is correct then the claim that this is about the South Coast vs the BSKF is unfair, and possibly libellous (or at least slanderous :)).

Nobody has claimed it is about South Coast v BSKF - merely that historically it has been a factor. And with Ade - a big factor, unless of course he no longer lives near the South Coast.

[Steve Williams]

Dirk, dave has just stated that WSKO and the south coast faction have been trying to dismantle the bskf

[David Dunn]

Dirk, dave has just stated that WSKO and the south coast faction have been trying to dismantle the bskf

Sorry, I should say the pro-WSKO faction of the BSKF. You can edit my original post if you like, since I'm now locked out of it.

[dirk.bruere]

Dirk, dave has just stated that WSKO and the south coast faction have been trying to dismantle the bskf

Well, there is no historical coherent "south coast faction" as far as I know.
Just a geographical tendency to support WSKO against the current BSKF.
Hence my prediction that the bulk of south coast dojos will side with WSKO, and the bulk of London ones with BSKF.

Which means that the focus of "UK Shorinji Kempo" will shift to the South Coast, and Ade.

[xavierkenji]

I thought Ade announced on E-Budo he was giving up SK a while ago. Has he changed his mind?

[dirk.bruere]

I thought Ade announced on E-Budo he was giving up SK a while ago. Has he changed his mind?

No idea, but if he has any sense he will now stick with it and with WSKO.
He is a cert to run the new national org, or at least be a major influence.
Personally, I would like to see Russell head it.

I also imagine that if Ade does a bit of wheeling and dealing he might persuade WSKO to bump him up a grade.

[chriswebster]

I also imagine that if Ade does a bit of wheeling and dealing he might persuade WSKO to bump him up a grade.

I feel confident saying that this isn't how things are done.

Surely as the branches now report to Japan there would be no head of the British side of things just each individual branch master?

[John Ryan]

My knowledge of this is very limited, however I believe that a number of dojo's outside the South Coast intend to stay within WSKO; if this is correct then the claim that this is about the South Coast vs the BSKF is unfair, and possibly libellous (or at least slanderous :)).

For libel to occur, one or more named or identifiable individuals must be defamed. I'm not sure this is the case here. At worst it's a clumsy expression.

It would be a shame, however, if this thread degenerated into an[other] argument between the two perspectives.

It would be nice if there were some way that people under either group could train together, with the non-training matters left outside the dojo. There must be some way of achieving this.

[dirk.bruere]

I feel confident saying that this isn't how things are done.

Surely as the branches now report to Japan there would be no head of the British side of things just each individual branch master?

Until a new federation is formed.
WSKO prefers dealing with national orgs rather than individual branches.
If I were Ade I'd leap in to fill the vacuum and kiss some WSKO ****

[stevenm]

It would be nice if there were some way that people under either group could train together, with the non-training matters left outside the dojo. There must be some way of achieving this.

John

I doubt there will be a reconciliation

It will be interesting to see how many pro Mizuno supporters attempt to rejoin WSKO when more of the facts become public and they realise what they have aligned themselves with

[xavierkenji]

What are you insinuating Steve? That sounds a bit unfair to me.

[sean dixie]

John

I doubt there will be a reconciliation

It will be interesting to see how many pro Mizuno supporters attempt to rejoin WSKO when more of the facts become public and they realise what they have aligned themselves with

Here's a question Steve; what if the reverse is found to be true? What IF in the future it's WSKO found to be at fault, how will those people who deserted a friend and founder feel? Will they leave WSKO?

I guess that's what taking sides is all about though?

[sean dixie]

What further facts Steve? We've been waiting all year for 'further information' to come from WSKO, I still have yet to see anything come that Sensei Mizuno didn't talk about to some of us about in early January last year. He does however have his own dossier of facts and figures. Why do you keep bringing this back to Sensei Mizuno? Do you hold a grudge?

[stevenm]

What further facts Steve? We've been waiting all year for 'further information' to come from WSKO, I still have yet to see anything come that Sensei Mizuno didn't talk about to some of us about in early January last year. He does however have his own dossier of facts and figures. Why do you keep bringing this back to Sensei Mizuno? Do you hold a grudge?

Sean

No grudge to hold

It would be interesting to see the Mizuno dossier

[xavierkenji]

Steve,
You're not answering Sean's question. It just comes across as unfair when you evade it like this. Why can't you be more up front and clear.

[Steve Williams]

Guys
If you have alegations grounded in fact that you can back up with physical evidence then by all means keep argueing.

Otherwise take it to PM or to e-mail and not on the forums.

It does neither of you (none of you) justice to act this way.


In a year or two there may be some who would wish they had chosen the "other side" or maybe not.

We will not know until that time.


In the words of a famous master:

"Fear and Anger, they lead to the Dark Side"

[Steve Williams]

Sean, can you say "Steve M" otherwise I think you are replying to something I said......

[Indar]

Very true Peter, the biggest emotion is sadness, not, as some may think, that of back slapping happiness.

To Dave and Sean, I think that many people did make sterling efforts but in my opinion, I would think that inviting Mizuno sensei back (and encouraging it) to train while on a ban from training would be considered handling it poorly.

Was he encouraged to renege on the agreement that he made with WSKO (according to the EGM minutes) ?
Why ?

This sounds as though he has been stuffed by both sides; WSKO and the BSKF.

[David Dunn]

The thin end of the wedge, I wonder? What next? Japanese only, and obedient ones at that?

I am truly saddened that the Honbu has handled this so badly. If they can't sort out a storm in a teacup, how the hell do they imagine they're going to make a real difference in the greater scheme of things?

Anyway, my sympathies to all the truly dedicated kenshi who have given so much to SK in the UK over the last 30 years. But just remember what my old sensei used to say: if you can't join them, fcuk 'em!

PS: I guess the good news is that I won't have to bother dragging a dogi over with me in the summer; least not an official one...

Hi Jeremy,
it would be good to see you in Cambridge (or London) while you're over. If you're here in August you might even be able to come to our summer gasshuku :)

[russ13]

I am taking the highly unusual step of posting on here just to try to clear a few discrepanciesthat seem to have crept in. Dave Dunn please engage your brain before opening your ill informed mouth then having to make a hasty retraction. This issue has never been about the "south coast versus who-ever" it has always been what is right and what is wrong. There are those who believe still Mizuno sensei has done no wrong or certainly no different to a number of other WSKO staff.There are those who believe he has done wrong but the punishment originally by WSKO was excessive.There are those who believe Mizuno Sensei was and is guilty of the allegations laid by WSKO. Everyone sifted the evidence and formed opinions, some with head, some with heart. None the less the very sad outcome is that Mizuno Sensei has been expelled and deprived of all qualifications by WSKO. A draconion step that I certainly have never witnessed in the 36 years I have been involved within shorinji Kempo. To answer Sean's question-- I suppose we will have to wait and see if WSKO do take further legal action, and then certainly one or other is going to be left with egg on their face. I wish to state clearly here on a public forum that I personnally have never had a problem with Mizuno Sensei. I have had problems with the way he has been advised by some however. I am particulary sad that the current powers within the BSKF allowed Mizuno Sensei to break his three year original ban. Had he been allowed to sit quiet for the duration of the ban there may well of been a way back. The UK owes an insurmountable debt to Mizuno Sensei for all that he has done here and I am ashamed that the vitriol of the last fourteen months appears to be rolling on. Now is a time for reflection of those good times when the old decrepid seniors were capable of doing 1000 kicks on Littlehampton sea front. When after coming home from Summer Camp you were unable to walk for three days. When 98 British Kenshi travelled to Japan as one, with one common aim and belief in mind. Remember the people that Mizuno sensei introduced to us, people who were gods amonst SK. The people he brought here to the UK, Mori Sensei, Bando Sensei, the likes of which we may never see again. Time to stop the bickering boys and pick up the pieces and move forward. Lets have no more nonsense or inuendo,aspersions cast. We all have a great deal to be thankful for, so move on. One final piece of information particulary for you Dirk, apart from trying to imagine the picture of Mr Adrian Starr kissing anyone's a***se, heaven forbid, I can catorgorically asusure you, Adrian after 1st April 2010 will be taking no further part in Shorinji Kempo, WSKO or otherwise.

Sensei Russell

[dirk.bruere]

Thanks for your input Russell.
However, it's not over until its over - and things are far from that point.
I imagine that it will take another year before the dust settles and the situation is stabilized. However, since I am leaving SK (of all varieties) at the end of the month it will be of purely academic interest.

[Rob Gassin]

Thank you Sensei Russell,

A post with more common sense than all the others on E Budo on this topic, in the past 3 months -- Hallelujah!!!

[Indar]

Thank you Sensei Russell,

A post with more common sense than all the others on E Budo on this topic, in the past 3 months -- Hallelujah!!!

That's why he's a sensei.

see, there are reasons for having heirarchies ;)

[Steve Williams]

That's why he's a sensei.

see, there are reasons for having heirarchies ;)

Hey.....

I'm a sensei too and my posts have common sense in them ;)

[Steve Williams]

I am particulary sad that the current powers within the BSKF allowed Mizuno Sensei to break his three year original ban. Had he been allowed to sit quiet for the duration of the ban there may well of been a way back.

This I have said before, and agree with.


Now is a time for reflection of those good times when the old decrepid seniors were capable of doing 1000 kicks on Littlehampton sea front. When after coming home from Summer Camp you were unable to walk for three days. When 98 British Kenshi travelled to Japan as one, with one common aim and belief in mind. Remember the people that Mizuno sensei introduced to us, people who were gods amonst SK. The people he brought here to the UK, Mori Sensei, Bando Sensei, the likes of which we may never see again. Time to stop the bickering boys and pick up the pieces and move forward. Lets have no more nonsense or inuendo,aspersions cast. We all have a great deal to be thankful for, so move on.
Very true words......
I remember all those times, although I was an eager junior in Littlehampton.....
Also it was only one day that I could not walk after summer camp, maybe I was just a little fitter than most.... ;)

So now as sensei Russell said, is the time to move on.

[dirk.bruere]

So now as sensei Russell said, is the time to move on.

Plenty of moving on to do, in all directions.

[dirk.bruere]

I remember all those times, although I was an eager junior in Littlehampton.....


The joys of mae ukemi between the piles of dogsh*t...
The best for me was Sayers Croft (sp?). That was when Ade burst an eardrum by doing a superman pose as he leapt into the pool sideways, one arm outstretched. No change eh :) I recall being impressed with his new tattoo, which I will belatedly copy at the end of this month.

[Steve Williams]

The Baseball at lunch time when we were at Crystal Palace and
Aosaka sensei and Mizuno sensei joking about the poor hitters........

[John McCulloch]

BSKF's "The Way of the Fat Dragon" production at Hombu 1989. :D

[Steve Williams]

It was "Enter the Fat Dragon"........ and I still say it was typecasting ;) :D :laugh:

[Steve Williams]

Anders "borrowing" my dogi and me having to wear his (extremely inappropriate) surf shorts and hawaian style shirt.......:eek::look:
1989 Hombu

[colin linz]

BSKF's "The Way of the Fat Dragon" production at Hombu 1989. :D

I remember that :)

[David Dunn]

I am taking the highly unusual step of posting on here just to try to clear a few discrepanciesthat seem to have crept in. Dave Dunn please engage your brain before opening your ill informed mouth then having to make a hasty retraction. This issue has never been about the "south coast versus who-ever" it has always been what is right and what is wrong. There are those who believe still Mizuno sensei has done no wrong or certainly no different to a number of other WSKO staff.There are those who believe he has done wrong but the punishment originally by WSKO was excessive.There are those who believe Mizuno Sensei was and is guilty of the allegations laid by WSKO. Everyone sifted the evidence and formed opinions, some with head, some with heart. None the less the very sad outcome is that Mizuno Sensei has been expelled and deprived of all qualifications by WSKO. A draconion step that I certainly have never witnessed in the 36 years I have been involved within shorinji Kempo. To answer Sean's question-- I suppose we will have to wait and see if WSKO do take further legal action, and then certainly one or other is going to be left with egg on their face. I wish to state clearly here on a public forum that I personnally have never had a problem with Mizuno Sensei. I have had problems with the way he has been advised by some however. I am particulary sad that the current powers within the BSKF allowed Mizuno Sensei to break his three year original ban. Had he been allowed to sit quiet for the duration of the ban there may well of been a way back. The UK owes an insurmountable debt to Mizuno Sensei for all that he has done here and I am ashamed that the vitriol of the last fourteen months appears to be rolling on. Now is a time for reflection of those good times when the old decrepid seniors were capable of doing 1000 kicks on Littlehampton sea front. When after coming home from Summer Camp you were unable to walk for three days. When 98 British Kenshi travelled to Japan as one, with one common aim and belief in mind. Remember the people that Mizuno sensei introduced to us, people who were gods amonst SK. The people he brought here to the UK, Mori Sensei, Bando Sensei, the likes of which we may never see again. Time to stop the bickering boys and pick up the pieces and move forward. Lets have no more nonsense or inuendo,aspersions cast. We all have a great deal to be thankful for, so move on. One final piece of information particulary for you Dirk, apart from trying to imagine the picture of Mr Adrian Starr kissing anyone's a***se, heaven forbid, I can catorgorically asusure you, Adrian after 1st April 2010 will be taking no further part in Shorinji Kempo, WSKO or otherwise.

Sensei Russell

Russell,
what has happened to the BSKF does not revolve around accepting the innocence or guilt of Mizuno sensei, as we keep banging on about. Some people appear to be incapable of grasping this fact. The point is that the executive officers of the BSKF did not feel that they were able to carry out the instructions of WSKO, because it was a request to put themselves at legal risk. It doesn't matter what the underlying issue is, the executive has a duty of care to the organisation and its members. The BSKF did not feel that it could comply with instructions to summarily dismiss someone from a contracted position, to abandon the AGM and to adopt a constitution which freed the organisation from that possibility. We have lost our group status precisely because we had the temerity to make a sensible decision when instructed otherwise by someone who would face no consequences for that decision. In other words because we disobeyed an order. I'm going to be a stuck record on this point.

Reminiscing about the past is good, but I think it's time to look forward to the future.

[Miraclejack]

I quote from the letter to the BSKF general secretary regarding the removal of the BSKF as a regular group member of WSKO:

"We studied the contents of the revised new constitution of the British federation. As I already advised you before, we have concluded that the constitution is not appropriate for a regular group member of WSKO to operate with.

WSKO president requested the British Federation for explanation at the meeting in London on February 20th 2010, on these matters. However none of the reasons were convincing.

Considering the above, the WSKO board concluded that the British Federation shall not be approved as a Regular Group member of WSKO and therefore the British Shorinji kempo Federation shall be dissolved following the item 31 of the WSKO statutes"

So it is clear to me that the reason that the federation is not acceptable to WSKO is that we have adopted a constitution that protects our members from possible litigation rather than toeing the party line. The BSKF has been expelled for making up its own mind on an issue that affects the BSKF in the UK, and which WSKO did not or will not understand .

It is not about personalities it is about the best interests of our members.

[Steve Williams]

Hi Jeremy,
it would be good to see you in Cambridge (or London) while you're over. If you're here in August you might even be able to come to our summer gasshuku :)

Talking of gasshuku......

We will be having the rescheduled WSKO gasshuku later this year......
Hopefully with Arai sensei and Kawashima sensei as originally billed......


Lets not get into a pi$$ing contest over whose gasshuku is best though......
So petty, and yes I know I perpetuated it ;)

[JL.]

Gassho!

IMHO, this is a sad day in the history of Shorinjikempo.
In the kowa I taught today, in a session with an esteemed guest from the UK, incidentally, I emphasized the importance of working together in Shorinjikempo. The parting of ways that is apparently taking place right now is therefore detrimental to our art. Especially since it's not about the art itself, or its technical or philosophical content, as far as I can tell.
Of course it can also hold chances for the future, and that's what this post is about. As the saying goes, it can only go uphill from here, considering the infighting and hurt that ocurred in the (old) BSKF in recent months.
One thing that I'd like to know from both sides of the 'divide' is, whether they would or will allow for connections with the other side. In particular, will it be possible for a kenshi, branchmaster or even dojo to be/remain part of both organizations?
From what I hear the WSKO statutes allow for individual members to also be members of other martial arts organizations (of other styles, obviously). Therefore from WSKO's side it should be possible, apart for those they've explicitely excluded (which as of now is exactly one person in this affair). Can anybody corroborate that?
Will the (new) BSKF also allow that? Can a dojo be part of both organizations?
I know that there is a lot of negative feelings on both sides right now, but this kind of … tolerance, I guess I'd call it, would probably go a long way towards laying the foundations of a peaceful coexistence in the future.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[JL.]

Gassho!

I'd like to add that if something like this was thought to be feasible, the last thing one side should do is to ask its members to chose one side, and one side only. Like asking them to declare their affiliation in writing …
That would be an extremely obviously mistake, that could only drive peope further into 'the other camp'.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Jeremy Williams]

Hi Jeremy,
it would be good to see you in Cambridge (or London) while you're over. If you're here in August you might even be able to come to our summer gasshuku :)

Thanks for the invite, David. However, my trips are few and characterized by copious alcohol fumes from start to finish. I tend to find it difficult to escape the bar stool, let alone a good wrist lock! Still, we'll see...

[Rob Gassin]

Gassho!

IMHO, this is a sad day in the history of Shorinjikempo.
In the kowa I taught today, in a session with an esteemed guest from the UK, incidentally, I emphasized the importance of working together in Shorinjikempo. The parting of ways that is apparently taking place right now is therefore detrimental to our art. Especially since it's not about the art itself, or its technical or philosophical content, as far as I can tell.
Of course it can also hold chances for the future, and that's what this post is about. As the saying goes, it can only go uphill from here, considering the infighting and hurt that ocurred in the (old) BSKF in recent months.
One thing that I'd like to know from both sides of the 'divide' is, whether they would or will allow for connections with the other side. In particular, will it be possible for a kenshi, branchmaster or even dojo to be/remain part of both organizations?
From what I hear the WSKO statutes allow for individual members to also be members of other martial arts organizations (of other styles, obviously). Therefore from WSKO's side it should be possible, apart for those they've explicitely excluded (which as of now is exactly one person in this affair). Can anybody corroborate that?
Will the (new) BSKF also allow that? Can a dojo be part of both organizations?
I know that there is a lot of negative feelings on both sides right now, but this kind of … tolerance, I guess I'd call it, would probably go a long way towards laying the foundations of a peaceful coexistence in the future.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Hi Jan,

I think you're pre-empting what will happen. there is no guarantee there will only be 2 sides. as you know Ade's Kempo and Cailey's Bushin have already dissociated from both WSKO and BSKF. It is possible that others will elect to do the same.

From a practical point of view, WSKO only has control on what happens at official WSKO events. So obviously, those who do not remain in WSKO will not be able to participates in official training camps or obtain WSKO grades. What relationship individual branches have with branches outside WSKO is a matter for the branches - WSKO does not have to know. As an interesting point here, I do not think WSKO has the power to stop members of other SK groups wearing the official Shorinji Kempo dogi.

What the BSKF decides to do is up to the BSKF. The same applies to other entities that arise from the current turmoil. Like all other parties, they will act in their best interest and that of their membership.

Cheers,

[Tripitaka of AA]

I'm following the events with great sadness. I seem to have missed a bit; What is Ade doing after April?

[Rob Gassin]

Just as a matter of interest, did WSKO give a reason for stripping Mizuno Sensei of all his grades and banning him for life?

[Miraclejack]

Fom Jan's post..."the last thing one side should do is to ask its members to chose one side, and one side only. Like asking them to declare their affiliation in writing ……
That would be an extremely obviously mistake, that could only drive peope further into 'the other camp'."


Attached to the letter from WSKO was a "Letter of Oath" asking for branch masters to sign it and return it to WSKO within one week.

Quoting from the second paragraph " I promise to uphold the statutes of WSKO, its directives and general policies"

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Attached to the letter from WSKO was a "Letter of Oath" asking for branch masters to sign it and return it to WSKO within one week.

Quoting from the second paragraph " I promise to uphold the statutes of WSKO, its directives and general policies"
Quite reasonable. If you want to belong to an organization play by it's rules.

If you cannot or do not want to follow the rules you are in the wrong place.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

The British Shorinji Kempo Federation was established in 1974 to further the practice of Shorinji
Kempo in the United Kingdom. Despite its long-standing affiliation to WSKO, it has always been, and
continues to be, an autonomous organisation with its own constitution, membership arrangements and
operating procedures, and subject to English law.
The BSKF notes WSKO’s acknowledgement that the recent request from WSKO to suspend the BSKF
chief instructor lies at the root of this issue. BSKF members are only required to follow WSKO or BSKF
statutes or operational practices to the extent that their actions do not conflict with their obligations
under English law. Furthermore, the BSKF recognises its duty to protect the interests of its members
under the terms of its own constitution or of any lawful contract entered into by the executive on the
BSKF’s behalf.
The BSKF executive has on numerous occasions explained to WSKO’s representatives that the BSKF
has no reasonable grounds to comply with the aforementioned request, and that doing so would
expose the BSKF to separate legal risks for which the BSKF would be solely liable. The BSKF notes
with regret that WSKO has failed to recognise the validity of these arguments.
I do not understand. Any employment contract can be terminated by the employer lawfully.
Or are the employment contracts in England forever?
Or is the contract between TM and BSKF made forever?

Or is the explanation above just an excuse for not wanting to terminate this contract?

[David Dunn]

Just as a matter of interest, did WSKO give a reason for stripping Mizuno Sensei of all his grades and banning him for life?

They didn't give any reason to us Rob. They may have given it to him.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Could the reason be that WSKO intends to follow a criminal prosecution against Mr Mizuno? And what is behind that.

[Miraclejack]

Quite reasonable. If you want to belong to an organization play by it's rules.

If you cannot or do not want to follow the rules you are in the wrong place.

Quite true in most cases, however the implication here is that WSKO is the highest authority in everything. Even national law is subordinate to WSKO's will if you want to continue training.

[Indar]

Quite true in most cases, however the implication here is that WSKO is the highest authority in everything. Even national law is subordinate to WSKO's will if you want to continue training.

If this is the case then WSKO are acting unreasonably.

However, as the Seiku says, "rely on yourself", i.e. people need to do their own research.

Because it has no legal identity of its own and in legal terms is only a collection of individuals, an unincorporated association can not:

* Start a legal action;
* Borrow money;
* Enter into contracts in its own name;
* Hold property.

http://www.netlawman.co.uk/info/unincorporated-associations.php

Personal risk

Unincorporated associations have no separate legal identity. This means that their members will have to sign loans and contracts as individuals and carry the risk of personal liability.


http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1077475675

The question here is whether a contract exists between individual members of the BSKF and the Chief Instructor, and if so, whether this contract was made with the knowledge and approval of the membership.

[John Ryan]

I do not understand. Any employment contract can be terminated by the employer lawfully.
Or are the employment contracts in England forever?
Or is the contract between TM and BSKF made forever?

Or is the explanation above just an excuse for not wanting to terminate this contract?

Yes, any contract can be terminated, but if it is not for a legally acceptable reason, the employee may sue for wrongful or unfair dismissal. "WSKO told us to" isn't a legally acceptable reason under UK law.

[Miraclejack]

As Indar says "carry the risk of personal liability".

It was for this reason that the new constitution was put in place.

Even some of our most senior members baulked at the idea that they may lose their house over decisions made by them or on their behalf...

To protect the best interests of our members we put into place a constitution for their protection. WSKO found this unacceptable and terminated our federation status.

[David Dunn]

Unincorporated associations have no separate legal identity. This means that their members will have to sign loans and contracts as individuals and carry the risk of personal liability.


The question here is whether a contract exists between individual members of the BSKF and the Chief Instructor, and if so, whether this contract was made with the knowledge and approval of the membership.

That's the sound of the penny dropping. Under the arrangements that prevailed last year, the members of the BSKF carried all the liability, and none of the decision-making ability, if you accept that we do what we're told by another party. To this end we had legal advice from two separate sources, that the least risk to the members of the BSKF was for the status quo to prevail.

That is somewhat at odds with the letter yesterday:



In the letter 09-WA-387 of February 9th 2010, based on the resolution of the WSKO Board of Directors, WSKO requested the British Shorinji Kempo Federation, a Regular Group Member of WSKO, to dismiss Mr. Tameo Mizuno from the posts of a Branch Master and the Chief Instructor. However, the British Federation did not fulfill [sic] its responsibility and duty as a Regular Group Member of WSKO, and moreover, it allows Mr Mizuno to participate in the suspended activities against the instruction of WSKO. This is a serious violation of the WSKO Statutes.

Also we studied the contents of the revised new constitution of the British Federation. As I already advised you before, we have concluded that the constitution is not appropriate for a Regular Group Member of WSKO to operate with.



Do WSKO statutes trump local law? Of course not. You can't exist in some idealised budo island, and ask the authorities to leave you to it.

To Kari, you cannot simply terminate a contract without due process. WSKO have denied us the right to carry out that process.

I hope people can see what legal can of worms there is here. With respect, Indar, Kari, WSKO, carry no liability for any decisions. Perhaps one day you will find yourself being asked to do something that puts you, or your members at risk. What decision will you make then?

[Kari MakiKuutti]

Perhaps one day you will find yourself being asked to do something that puts you, or your members at risk. What decision will you make then?
Here we are organized as registered assiociations which are legal entities.
Basically responsibility lies with the associations not the members.

Decisions will depend on the particulars of any case in question, naturally.

[Kari MakiKuutti]

With respect, Indar, Kari, WSKO, carry no liability for any decisions.
I am responsible for my own decisions.

In the matters discussed here I have no power to make any decisions.

Only opinions ;)

[Rob Gassin]

Couldn't Mizuno just resign to save BSKF all the bother and legal minefield?

[Indar]

Couldn't Mizuno just resign to save BSKF all the bother and legal minefield?


There are two separate arguments here:

1. The BSKF can't dismiss their Chief Instructor, because if they do he will sue them.

2. WSKO have no right (legally/morally) to ask the BSKF to dismiss him.

These arguments are getting tangled up, and making things confusing.

[Rob Gassin]

Indar,

I fully understand the situation.

All I'm saying is that Mizuno had resigned, BSKF would not be in the difficult situation it is in. Given the current situation, I have 2 questions:

1. What has Mizuno to gain by not resigning?
2. Is the fact that Mizuno no longer has a grading in Shorinji Kempo a good enough justification for BSKF to terminate his employment?

BTW - For those who are wondering - I do realise I am putting practicality ahead of morality here.

[David Dunn]

BTW - For those who are wondering - I do realise I am putting practicality ahead of morality here.

Yes, you're asking why someone hasn't collaborated in their own execution, just to avoid any fuss :)

[Rob Gassin]

Yes, you're asking why someone hasn't collaborated in their own execution, just to avoid any fuss :)

Execution in what sense?

[Indar]

Indar,

I fully understand the situation.

All I'm saying is that Mizuno had resigned, BSKF would not be in the difficult situation it is in. Given the current situation, I have 2 questions:

1. What has Mizuno to gain by not resigning?
2. Is the fact that Mizuno no longer has a grading in Shorinji Kempo a good enough justification for BSKF to terminate his employment?

BTW - For those who are wondering - I do realise I am putting practicality ahead of morality here.

Sorry Rob, my comments were actually directed towards BSKF members posting here. As they know, I have been in a similar situation in the past, and therefore I do have some sympathy for them.

However, they need to be clear on what their position is:

1. WSKO has acted unfairly, therefore they support Mr Mizuno.

I have no idea whether this is the case, however I think that most people would sympathise with their position.

2. They are in an impossible legal position, since if they dismiss Mr Mizuno he will sue them.

A completely different argument, and open to (expensive legal) interpretation.


At present they seem to be arguing both cases simultaneously, which undermines their position.

[stevenm]

Russell,
what has happened to the BSKF does not revolve around accepting the innocence or guilt of Mizuno sensei, as we keep banging on about. Some people appear to be incapable of grasping this fact. The point is that the executive officers of the BSKF did not feel that they were able to carry out the instructions of WSKO, because it was a request to put themselves at legal risk. It doesn't matter what the underlying issue is, the executive has a duty of care to the organisation and its members. The BSKF did not feel that it could comply with instructions to summarily dismiss someone from a contracted position, to abandon the AGM and to adopt a constitution which freed the organisation from that possibility. We have lost our group status precisely because we had the temerity to make a sensible decision when instructed otherwise by someone who would face no consequences for that decision. In other words because we disobeyed an order. I'm going to be a stuck record on this point.

Reminiscing about the past is good, but I think it's time to look forward to the future.

Dave

Have have you got muddled?

Sensei Russell not Russell is still a member and sensei isn't he?

whereas Sensei Mizuno who you refer to as Sensei has he been dismissed?

Therefore plain Mizuno

Just thought you might be muddled

[dirk.bruere]

Dave

Have have you got muddled?

Sensei Russell not Russell is still a member and sensei isn't he?

whereas Sensei Mizuno who you refer to as Sensei has he been dismissed?

Therefore plain Mizuno

Just thought you might be muddled

My thought is that your comment is both petty and malicious.

[tony leith]

Well, I dunno, you take a few days off looking at email etc to spend some quality time with your infant daughter, and whoops, the apocalypse dawns..

Well, actually, WSKO expel Mizuno sensei, which as per their latest mission statement they certainly have the power to do. Shike can apparently expell any kenshi anywhere on a whim.

WSKO also ‘dissolve the BSKF’, which they certainly do not have the power to do. They can cease to recognise it, but ‘dissolving’ a voluntary association of free individuals in another country entirely is not within their powers. Especially when that association has just made itself constitutionally completely autonomous from WSKO. Yes, we did see this coming, and yes it was completely intentional.

I have looked over the thread, and one by sensei - or 'Darth', as I affectionately call him - Russell Jenkins caught my eye. It purported to put the record straight. Well, maybe by his lights. My response below (denoted 'TL'), interleaved with quotes from his original post (denoted 'RJ').

RJ
I am taking the highly unusual step of posting on here just to try to clear a few discrepancies that seem to have crept in.

TL
Long time lurker first time poster, eh? Or perhaps not, depending on whether we believe you may have operated under nom de guerre previously, against e-budo house rules, tsk tsk

RJ
Dave Dunn please engage your brain before opening your ill informed mouth then having to make a hasty retraction. This issue has never been about the "south coast versus who-ever" it has always been what is right and what is wrong.

TL
Indeed not, just as it has never been reducible to a question simply of whether one feels personal loyalty to Mizuno sensei or not, or to what degree. Re. ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, I of course accept that different people can form different opinions re. right and wrong in any given set of circumstances, quite legitimately.

There is an abundance of evidence however regarding the behaviour of the participants in the BSKF’s internal debates over the past year, handily preserved intact in emails, many of which were sent to the general BSKF BM group. Now, I would argue that these emails are in a very real sense public documents. For my own part, I regard everything that I have written in emails over the past year as a matter of public record, and would be happy for it to be seen and read by any kenshi anywhere. I wonder if everybody else party to those discussions would?

RJ
There are those who believe still Mizuno sensei has done no wrong or certainly no different to a number of other WSKO staff.There are those who believe he has done wrong but the punishment originally by WSKO was excessive.There are those who believe Mizuno Sensei was and is guilty of the allegations laid by WSKO. Everyone sifted the evidence and formed opinions, some with head, some with heart.

TL
Hmm. But some claimed throughout to be privy to information about Mizuno sensei, by implication and innuendo much more damning information, which was not available to the rest of us. There is certainly direct evidence that WSKO furnished such evidence as they had re. allegatons against Mizuno sensei to some kenshi on the south coast rather than to the BSKF as a whole. Before anybody bothers to work up some synthetic outrage, when I say ‘evidence’ of WSKO doing this, I mean of the incontrovertible documentary sort.

I had to point out to Onishi sensei (of Hombu) when he was interrogating me – and others – about alleged breaches of WSKO’s ‘confidentiality’ strictures (read ‘gagging order’) when cooperating with a police enquiry, we had to tell him that he was the source of his own leak, and we could prove it. That was fun.

As always has been the case however, the BSKF was not party to any dispute WSKO might have with Mizuno sensei, and WSKO never had any business expecting the BSKF to do its dirty work for it.

RJ
None the less the very sad outcome is that Mizuno Sensei has been expelled and deprived of all qualifications by WSKO. A draconion step that I certainly have never witnessed in the 36 years I have been involved within shorinji Kempo. To answer Sean's question-- I suppose we will have to wait and see if WSKO do take further legal action, and then certainly one or other is going to be left with egg on their face.

TL
Expelled Mizuno sensei may have been, and he may well be required to send back some bits of paper to Hombu, he may no longer be able to wear his official Soen emblazoned underpants, but his 45 year of practice and consequent extraordinary technical abilities are still very much intact. WSKO have suggested that any such hypothesised case against Mizuno sensei might ‘take some years’. Ahem.

RJ
I wish to state clearly here on a public forum that I personnally have never had a problem with Mizuno Sensei. I have had problems with the way he has been advised by some however. I am particulary sad that the current powers within the BSKF allowed Mizuno Sensei to break his three year original ban. Had he been allowed to sit quiet for the duration of the ban there may well of been a way back. The UK owes an insurmountable debt to Mizuno Sensei for all that he has done here and I am ashamed that the vitriol of the last fourteen months appears to be rolling on.

TL
Well, again, I think it would be instructive if everybody’s emails over the past twelve months were a matter of public record.

What I will point out is that at the beginning of last year, the BSKF executive committee were prepared to send a petition pleading for leniency to be exercised towards Mizuno sensei on behalf of the BSKF. Note that this was a petition asking for leniency, pretty much to the extent of allowing him to continue to practice and teach his own students. Russell Jenkins was one of three members of the 5 strong ‘Senior Instructors’ Group’ that voted to veto that petition being sent to WSKO.

Mr Jenkins also instructed the BSKF Treasurer to cease paying Mizuno sensei his salary as BSKF Chief Instructor in December 2008, i.e. before WSKO’s actions against Mizuno sensei became general public knowledge. 2 points are pertinent here –

1) he had no constitutional authority whatsoever to do so, regardless of his seniority, and the liability for his actions would have been borne by the responsible executive officer, not him.
2) to put it very very mildly, ceasing payment to Mizuno sensei as a result of a dispute with WSKO in which his actual employer – the BSKF – was not involved, and without affording him the benefits of due process, is prejudicial in the proper sense of the word.

The BSKF Treasurer very sensibly and properly refused to carry out his instructions.



RJ
Now is a time for reflection of those good times when the old decrepid seniors were capable of doing 1000 kicks on Littlehampton sea front. When after coming home from Summer Camp you were unable to walk for three days. When 98 British Kenshi travelled to Japan as one, with one common aim and belief in mind. Remember the people that Mizuno sensei introduced to us, people who were gods amonst SK. The people he brought here to the UK, Mori Sensei, Bando Sensei, the likes of which we may never see again. Time to stop the bickering boys and pick up the pieces and move forward. Lets have no more nonsense or inuendo,aspersions cast.

TL
The warm glow of nostalgia is one thing, facts are another. Hmm. Were these ‘gods’ woefully deficient in judgement and taste in associating with Mizuno sensei, or did they perhaps recognise somebody capable of transmitting their teachings to succeeding generations of kenshi? Oh, and how did he end up in Britain anyway. Oh, I remember now, Kaiso sent him. As to ‘nonsense or inuendo, aspersions’ being cast, read the foregoing and draw your own conclusions..

RJ
We all have a great deal to be thankful for, so move on. One final piece of information particulary for you Dirk, apart from trying to imagine the picture of Mr Adrian Starr kissing anyone's a***se, heaven forbid, I can catorgorically asusure you, Adrian after 1st April 2010 will be taking no further part in Shorinji Kempo, WSKO or otherwise

TL
Well, many of us have had experience of Mr Starr resigning very histrionically from various BSKF bodies at regular intervals, and never actually seeming to leave. His most recent resignation was submitted some months ago, and hasn’t prevented him from expressing his opinion on various BSKF email threads since. perhaps a rite of exorcism or a stake through the heart is called for?

Anyway, as sensei Russell Jenkins finished by observing, life will go on. I find that being subject of a constitutionally irrelevant fatwa from WSKO leaves me remarkably unmoved, I must say.

To quote Mel Gibson - FREEEEEEDDDDOOOOMMMMMMM!!!!!!

In an 'if you don't want me to be in your club I have a perfectly good one of my own thank you very much' sort of way.

Tony Leith

[chriswebster]

I'm not sure making thinly veiled insults towards Sensei Russell and Sensei Ade is particularly constructive. I feel Sensei Russell's post was perhaps the most sensible one made in this thread so far and Sensei Ade is free to do what he chooses.

Perhaps the BSKF cannot technically be dispanded by WSKO. However WSKO CAN as you say cease to recognise it. And also as they have recently said they can stop anyone from using the name Shorinji Kempo and brand then the name "British Shorinji Kempo Federation" will have to change.

The membership will be different and the name will be different so the result is the same as if it were dispanded and a new organisation set up ;)

[Steve Williams]

Tony

A few days of relative peace and then you come along and change it all.........
We were finally coming to an "agree to disagree" sort of situation and were trying to get along.......
I guess that you don't subscribe to the "prevent violence and return to a harmonious coexistence" stuff........

A couple of observations:

If you have proof that Sensei Russell was using a pseudonym to log on here then tell me what name you thought he was logging in under and I will check it out, we have ways of doing that you know, and if you are correct then it will be a serious breach of e-budo rules, of course if you are wrong then I would expect to see a full (and grovelling) apology.

You freely name Sensei Russell as "one of three" senior instructors who "vetoed the petition to WSKO" why not name all three....... in for a penny......

You imply that Mr Starr is a vampire???? Surely you jest......
But seriously, Adrian Starr did say that he would resign from WSKO from the next BSKF renewal point, which is 1st April....... so he is not actually gone yet.

I sincerely hope that Mizuno sensei does not have any soen underpants..... they are not an official unity item and if he does have them then he has produced them illegally.


Finally, many of your comments, while they may not be libelous, are certainly condescending and they are definately ill advised......
I will say that if you let the post stand as it is then I will not bear any responsibility for the responses you may get, and I will give them the same leniency as you are now enjoying.

[David Dunn]

If you have proof that Sensei Russell was using a pseudonym to log on here then tell me what name you thought he was logging in under and I will check it out, we have ways of doing that you know, and if you are correct then it will be a serious breach of e-budo rules, of course if you are wrong then I would expect to see a full (and grovelling) apology.

This is mischievious ancient history Steve.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34114

I think it was dealt with at the time.

[tony leith]

from Chris


I'm not sure making thinly veiled insults towards Sensei Russell and Sensei Ade is particularly constructive. I feel Sensei Russell's post was perhaps the most sensible one made in this thread so far and Sensei Ade is free to do what he chooses.


'Thinly veiled'? I think you credit me with too much subtlety.


Perhaps the BSKF cannot technically be dispanded by WSKO. However WSKO CAN as you say cease to recognise it. And also as they have recently said they can stop anyone from using the name Shorinji Kempo and brand then the name "British Shorinji Kempo Federation" will have to change.


Re. the name 'Shorinji Kempo', it's quite difficult to see how intellectual copyright can be asserted over an English transliteration of a Japanese transliteration of - funnily enough - a Chinese term meaning something like 'small forest in specific location fist way'. The term shorinji kempo had currency before Kaiso adopted it for his system, as a generic term applied to Chinese arts from that heritage.

I have encountered it for example in the autobiography of master Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan. In the opening chapter of a book published in the 1930s, he makes reference to his belief that traditional Okinawan karate derives from Chinese shorinji kempo. In this context it is obvious he does NOT mean the art of Doshin So, given that it didn't then exist.

WSKO can't have it both ways. Either the art we all practice is heir to thousands of years of martial arts development, or it isn't. If it is, it is not possible to assert copyright over the art itself. Probably not over the name either. Which leaves Ms So with her logo. She can be supreme arbiter over that if she likes.

There is also no 'perhaps' about WSKO not being able to disband the BSKF. Trust me, the 2010 BSKF constitution is extremely robust on this point.


The membership will be different and the name will be different so the result is the same as if it were dispanded and a new organisation set up

we shall, as they say, see

Tony Leith

[Steve Williams]

This is mischievious ancient history Steve.
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34114

I think it was dealt with at the time.

Thanks, didn't remember it.....

But the thread does make for interesting reading, considering it was from almost 4 years ago...... how little it seems that we have moved.

[colin linz]

I want some soen underpants! Anyone have any to spare? Or do I need to order them through my Branch Master?

[Steve Williams]

from Chris



'Thinly veiled'? I think you credit me with too much subtlety.



Tony Leith

So by your own admission you have insulted another e-budo member.

Consider this as an official warning, I would expect an apology and a retraction.

If you continue on this path you may face extra consequenses.

[JL.]

Gassho!

I feel that one way to judge a person's character is by looking at how they talk about people that cannot defend themselves directly. Since Ade-sensei was banned from this forum some rather unpleasant things have been said about him, especially by some people who kept quiet while he was still actively posting.
Regarding the question of his membership within WSKO, this is what he has to say about it:

I have RETIRED from the recognized practise of Shorinji Kempo - like Cailey Barker.
I have no intention of using the name of Shorinji Kempo, its mark and logotype in my practise.
I want absolutely no part whatsoever of the new BSKF.
I will still be supporting WSKO however I can.
I am a lifetime member of WSKO until I am thrown out by WSKO or resign in writing to WSKO.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[russ13]

Tony
I am not prepared to stoop so low as to enter into a slanging match on a very public forum. Words spoken over distance and by this form of media are very easily misunderstood. Someone suggested that after all this was over, would it be possible for us to train together again.Well I extend an open invite to you to visit my dojo on any occassion you wish, wherein we can discuss things in a face to face manner so there is no misunderstanding. As this draws to its sorry conclusion I will confess I was privy to some information that you weren't. You accuse me of being one of three who vetoed the petition regarding Mizuno Sensei. Well perhaps it is time for some truth. There was a forth member who didn't want the petition sent because they realised that it could possibly cause an esculation and thorough investigation of the facts. At the time I spoke at length to that person whose precise words to me were,"Thank you Russell for all you are trying to do,this new committee are far to junior and do not know what they are doing". Now there is only one person who calls me Russell and not Sensei Russell and it aint Dave Dunn!!! and yes Tony that was not the full extent of the conversation. It is a little ironic that the very thing we feared at the time and were desperately trying to protect has now come to fruition. So there we are Tony you are now privy to a little more information, however there are some things you will never know or understand or be privy too.

[stevenm]

Now there is only one person who calls me Russell and not Sensei Russell and it aint Dave Dunn!!!

Dave

I did warn you

[Indar]

Dave

I did warn you

I think that a good principle here is; don't say anything on a public forum that you wouldn't say to that person face to face.

When I was an executive member of the BSKF some years ago I had some heated discussions with Sensei Russell, both face to face and via email; however I always respected my elder (i hope) and he didn't slight his younger ;)

The dokken isn't just some fancy words (for some of us).

(sorry about the poor grammar).

[tony leith]

So by your own admission you have insulted another e-budo member.

Consider this as an official warning, I would expect an apology and a retraction.


It was a joke. I do not consider that I have made any statements which could be fairly called insulting to anybody. I have also been quite scrupulous about only making assertions of fact which I am in a position to substantiate.
I freely grant I may have been offering a bit less in the way of grovelling servility than he might be used to. Rest assured that this is a general policy rather than an ad hominen attack.

I have come to the conclusion that the culture of unhesitating deference to seniority being taken outside the relevant context i.e. the training environment has had deeply pernicious effects on the institutional culture of Shorinji Kempo. I intend to act accordingly.

I am not a hypocrite. My students call me 'sensei' when we are training, but outside the dojo they call me 'Tony'. Outside the dojo, I try to encourage them to express their opinions and debate ideas freely. I do not rule anything out of court simply on the basis that they might have been training for a year or less whereas I have been training for almost 20. In this way, I hope to encourage them to think, and their ability to articulate and stand up for their own moral point of view.

As to Mr Jenkin's further innuendo and dark hints about what he knows that I and others don't, I've been hearing this stuff for more than a year, thus far none of it has ever been substantiated, and as a consequence I really couldn't care less.

Steve, you are now free to take whatever action you see fit. If it amounts to suppression of opinion simply because you happen to find it unpalatable, I will feel equally free to take it to the site owners.

regards

Tony Leith

[Indar]

The British Shorinji Kempo Federation was established in 1974 to further the practice of Shorinji
Kempo in the United Kingdom. Despite its long-standing affiliation to WSKO, it has always been, and
continues to be, an autonomous organisation with its own constitution, membership arrangements and
operating procedures, and subject to English law.

Hasn't it always been the case that in order to become a member of the BSKF it is/was necessary to become a member of WSKO ?

If it was actually the case that the BSKF was autonomous then surely WSKO membership should have been optional ?

[sean dixie]

"Thank you Russell for all you are trying to do,this new committee are far to junior and do not know what they are doing".

Gassho Sensei Russell; am I still welome at Bournmouth? For clarity, it should be mentioned that we, the younger ones (with pressured jobs, wives, children of our own etc) also had the advice of both Sensei Jee 6th Dan and Yasue Sensei 4th Dan. Neither are 'junior'. In the interest of truth if either of these were the ones to dismiss the plea for leniency please do PM me if you don't want to make this public record.

[tony leith]

Well, it is certainly true that the 2002 BSKF constitution included a clause requiring possession of a valid WSKO membership card for BSKF membership

Of course, had WSKO attempted to shut down the BSKF by expelling much of its membership in defiance of their expressed wishes in a general ballot, I suspect it would have been laughed out of any UK court.

The 2010 constitution of course contains no such provision, and instead makes it clear that affiliation to any external body is a matter of policy for the BSKF. WSKO of course have a perfect right to say they will not accept the BSKF as an affiliate, but not to make any determinative pronouncements on the future of the BSKF itself.

Re. the autonomy of the BSKF, the BSKF has been organising insurance cover for its members and instructors, and providing a range of services to them quite independently of WSKO for decades. Almost all instruction in SK in the UK has in fact been provided by BSKF instructors over that period, though of course the periodic visits from overseas guests of all nationalities have been greatly appreciated.

It also has a history of use of the words 'shorinji kempo' in the context of the activity going back to the 1970s, and even through its predecessor organisation, the British Shorinji Kempo Association. In the words, prior to the creation of the current WSKO copyright marque and logo.

Tony Leith

[Indar]

WSKO also ‘dissolve the BSKF’, which they certainly do not have the power to do. They can cease to recognise it, but ‘dissolving’ a voluntary association of free individuals in another country entirely is not within their powers. Especially when that association has just made itself constitutionally completely autonomous from WSKO. Yes, we did see this coming, and yes it was completely intentional.



i.e. you leveraged it for your own purposes, despite the possible consequences for the BSKF Chief Instructor.

[dirk.bruere]

You imply that Mr Starr is a vampire???? Surely you jest......


Werewolf - you all need to get your mythology right.

[sean dixie]

I'd just like too add that my previous post was there really to illistrate to the reader that the BSKF is not being run by a bunch of young, hot headed and cocky branchmasters. Every step has been worked through with various 'seniors' who were of a like mind to ourselves and so perhaps in opposite opinion to other seniors. We have also kept a keen contact with Sensei Mizuno throughout.

[David Dunn]

i.e. you leveraged it for your own purposes, despite the possible consequences for the BSKF Chief Instructor.

How could the adoption of a particular constitution have consequences for the Chief Instructor?

[Steve Williams]

I think that the fact of appointing a chief instructor yourself instead of Hombu doing so (as I think is the norm/rule) would affect the chief instructor quite a bit.

Also the fact of not affiliating with the parent organisation (WSKO) has in this case consequenses because it meant that WSKO took extra action against Mizuno......

Also as Tony said "yes we did see it coming, and yes it was completely intentional"...... so it was that the BSKF wanted it to happen and engineered it that way??

[sean dixie]

I think that the fact of appointing a chief instructor yourself instead of Hombu doing so (as I think is the norm/rule) would affect the chief instructor quite a bit.

Also the fact of not affiliating with the parent organisation (WSKO) has in this case consequenses because it meant that WSKO took extra action against Mizuno......

Also as Tony said "yes we did see it coming, and yes it was completely intentional"...... so it was that the BSKF wanted it to happen and engineered it that way??

He was already appointed Steve, you know yourself having been on the committee at the beginning of all this how legally precarious this all was. It's now been explained ad infintum. As you mentioned earleir you didn't want to lose your house - I didn't want to lose mine either.

[Indar]

How could the adoption of a particular constitution have consequences for the Chief Instructor?

It does seem from the evidence presented here that at the onset WSKO simply wanted to "teach him a lesson" (for whatever reason), therefore he could have waited out the three years suspension and then come back and have been in a position to retire with his reputation intact (and I assume that reputation is very important from a Japanese viewpoint, although perhaps not so much from a English one).

I understand the importance of sorting out the legal status of the BSKF, however changing the constitution doesn't do this; what is required is creating a legal entity such as a company limited by guarantee.

[stevenm]

As you mentioned earleir you didn't want to lose your house - I didn't want to lose mine either.

Sean

Please explain where the risk of losing your house came from?

[Steve Williams]

It was said that if the BSKF were sued (i.e. by someone who was removed contrary to UK law) then the executive committee would be liable for all court costs and renumeration.......
So in theory they could lose their house.....

[stevenm]

It was said that if the BSKF were sued (i.e. by someone who was removed contrary to UK law) then the executive committee would be liable for all court costs and renumeration.......
So in theory they could lose their house.....

Steve

Thanks for replying

In that case did that someone actually threaten or start proceedings against the BSKF?

[Steve Williams]

No, it was just made clear that if it came to it ever, this was just after all this trouble started, then anyone on the committee would be the first to potentially lose everything.......

[tony leith]

To be clear, when I said that :-


WSKO also ‘dissolve the BSKF’, which they certainly do not have the power to do. They can cease to recognise it, but ‘dissolving’ a voluntary association of free individuals in another country entirely is not within their powers. Especially when that association has just made itself constitutionally completely autonomous from WSKO. Yes, we did see this coming, and yes it was completely intentional.


The latter statement has to be seen in the context of 1) a previous constitution which did indeed state - however unsustainable this might have proved to be in legal terms - that BSKF membership required possession of a valid WSKO membership card and 2) the subsequent fact that WSKO have in fact subsequently announced that they have 'dissolved the BSKF', despite the inconvenient fact that they have no legal or constitutional authority to do so.

So, the provisions in the 2010 constitution which ended the constitutional link to WSKO turned out to be prudent. Bear in mind that the issue which provoked this action was apparently the BSKF's refusal to enforce WSKO's edicts regarding Mizuno sensei, and that this refusal was based on respecting the rule of law in the UK and the basic rights of the indivdual, as well as awareness of the potential liability implications of failing to do so.

The action taken was WSKO's; it was not in any sense engineered, merely anticipated.

regarding changing the legal status of the BSKF, Indar is quite right. However we now have the constitutional and political latitude to make such provisions as seems sensible for the BSKF and its members, rather than having to defer to the interests - commercial and otherwise - of WSKO.

Tony Leith

[Tripitaka of AA]

When you ask for legal advice, the solicitor/barrister/etc have a duty to inform you of the law, the ramifications of any action and the possible consequences. They do this from a professional standpoint, with a dispassionate view of the personalities involved. If they saw a possibility for legal action that might affect their clients, then they must inform them of it. It then becomes a case of meeting the threat and dealing with it, whether or not the parties "think" or "hope" it might never come to pass.

Anyone who has ever bought a house will know that there are a hundred or more questions that the Buyer's solicitors wil ask the Vendor's solicitors. They cover all the bases, or as many as they can, to ensure that nothing can go wrong. They would do the same thing if you were buying from your Mum, or a known snake-in-the-grass. Their own reputation/business would be at risk if they failed to advise their clients of potential risk.

It really doesn't matter if an individual employee is likely, or not likely, to sue. The employer must conform to established procedures as laid out in a contract or the Law, which have been designed to protect employees.


I just made that up. But I've watched enough TV dramas to make it sound reasonably convincing, don't you think!

[colin linz]

When you ask for legal advice, the solicitor/barrister/etc have a duty to inform you of the law, the ramifications of any action and the possible consequences. They do this from a professional standpoint, with a dispassionate view of the personalities involved. If they saw a possibility for legal action that might affect their clients, then they must inform them of it. It then becomes a case of meeting the threat and dealing with it, whether or not the parties "think" or "hope" it might never come to pass.

Anyone who has ever bought a house will know that there are a hundred or more questions that the Buyer's solicitors wil ask the Vendor's solicitors. They cover all the bases, or as many as they can, to ensure that nothing can go wrong. They would do the same thing if you were buying from your Mum, or a known snake-in-the-grass. Their own reputation/business would be at risk if they failed to advise their clients of potential risk.

It really doesn't matter if an individual employee is likely, or not likely, to sue. The employer must conform to established procedures as laid out in a contract or the Law, which have been designed to protect employees.


I just made that up. But I've watched enough TV dramas to make it sound reasonably convincing, don't you think!
Very true David. It is also true that life cannot be lived without risk. This seems to follow through into all areas of management. Since 1988 I've worked for large government agencies, the Air Force, and now TAFE. Both these organisations employed people as risk management officers. Their role was to know what legal risks were involved with an activity and decide if the benefits of the activity outweighed the potential risks. This is also something that I do on a daily basis in class. I am directly responsible for my students welfare, and the department will not support me if I balls it up. Everyday I have to assess certain actives or situations and decide will I put myself at risk, what is the real danger of this activity/situation to my students.

[David Dunn]

In that case did that someone actually threaten or start proceedings against the BSKF?

Steve,
this is where you have missed the point, and David Tripitaka hasn't. One must proceed according to law.

[colin linz]

Just a question. Do you think it is too early to try and cash in the current decline of the BSKF? I have some stuff an ex UK kenshi who did Aikido where I taught Shorinji Kempo gave me. It might be a gold mine for me ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v717/Colin_Linz/IMG-7.jpg

[David Dunn]

Colin,
why do you assume this is a decline? It may be an impetus to freedom and greater things :)

[David Dunn]

Also the fact of not affiliating with the parent organisation (WSKO) has in this case consequenses because it meant that WSKO took extra action against Mizuno......


Steve, I'm interested in this point. Is that why WSKO took "extra action"?

[Steve Williams]

Maybe, or maybe not.....

I do not know for sure, I think that more the fact of inviting Mizuno back to training was a bigger catalist, and the fact of appointing a chief instructor who was banned from training by WSKO, although that fact was not mentioned in the constitution I know.

I should have prefaced that with "in my opinion" and if it is clearly an untrue statement then I will retract it.

[colin linz]

Colin,
why do you assume this is a decline? It may be an impetus to freedom and greater things :)
You're right. Perhaps change would be better. Whatever we call it, it does mark an end to the status quo of the relationship between WSKO and the BSKF. That's not to say the BSKF can't maintain its role as a national body administrating a group of martial arts schools. Nor does it mean that the end result will lack quality. But, it is an end to an era, and I want to make a financial killing on it while I can :D

[Tripitaka of AA]

Note from Colin's scan that the transition from BSKA to BSKF was not as technically advanced as we might expect today (the scan says Association on one bit and Federation on the other) and the quality of that photocopy is the best we could do at the time. It might be one I made on the machine at the City lit, in the General Office during the summer holidays when no-one was around :).

[Steve Williams]

Colin,
why do you assume this is a decline? It may be an impetus to freedom and greater things :)

Anything which will mean less kenshi training is a decline.
Whether it will ultimately lead to growth remains to be seen......

So Colin, I would keep hold of it, either the "BSKF" will grow and be massive in which case there will be more people "fighting" for your goods, or the "BSKF" will disapear and then your goods will be worth more...... either way you are in a win-win situation. ;)

[dirk.bruere]

I've still got my official WSKO approved gi top (bottoms split sometime in the 1980s when I started putting on muscle), with a *BSKA* original badge!
Offers?

[colin linz]

I've still got my official WSKO approved gi top (bottoms split sometime in the 1980s when I started putting on muscle), with a *BSKA* original badge!
Offers?
But the real question is, do you have any soen underpants?

[dirk.bruere]

But the real question is, do you have any soen underpants?

Sadly not even a soen patch on anything, as I would by now have stuck it to a pair of ugly white underpants like mothers used to buy for their little boys - and posted the photo of me wearing it. Finally, a symbol fit for purpose:)

[colin linz]

Sadly not even a soen patch on anything, as I would by now have stuck it to a pair of ugly white underpants like mothers used to buy for their little boys - and posted the photo of me wearing it. Finally, a symbol fit for purpose:)
That would be one for the album ;)

[Indar]

Mr Jenkins also instructed the BSKF Treasurer to cease paying Mizuno sensei his salary as BSKF Chief Instructor in December 2008, i.e. before WSKO’s actions against Mizuno sensei became general public knowledge. 2 points are pertinent here –

1) he had no constitutional authority whatsoever to do so, regardless of his seniority, and the liability for his actions would have been borne by the responsible executive officer, not him.
2) to put it very very mildly, ceasing payment to Mizuno sensei as a result of a dispute with WSKO in which his actual employer – the BSKF – was not involved, and without affording him the benefits of due process, is prejudicial in the proper sense of the word.

The BSKF Treasurer very sensibly and properly refused to carry out his instructions.



The points that you make depend on the terms of the contract between the BSKF and its Chief Instructor.

Is the BSKF willing to publish this contract ?

You can argue that this is a private matter between the BSKF and the individual concerned, but if this is the case you shouldn't have raised it in a public forum in the first place.

[Miraclejack]

Mizuno......

???

Williams Sensei, I expected better of you.

[Rob Gassin]

???

Williams Sensei, I expected better of you.

I'm not sure which part of Steve's post you take offence to.

[Miraclejack]

I'm not sure which part of Steve's post you take offence to.

The part in the quote.

[colin linz]

Perhaps it is the lack of sensei as an honorific. I don't think Steve has much of an option with this given his support for WSKO (that's not meant as any form of judgement Steve).

[Rob Gassin]

Perhaps it is the lack of sensei as an honorific. I don't think Steve has much of an option with this given his support for WSKO (that's not meant as any form of judgement Steve).

If it is the lack of 'sensei', then surely he should also have pulled you up for not referring to Todoroki as sensei. I also note that Doshin So is rarely referred to as 'kaiso' or Yuki So as 'kancho' on this forum.

C'mon, lets be realistic, this is a public forum, not an official letter or a legal document.

[stevenm]

Steve,
this is where you have missed the point, and David Tripitaka hasn't. One must proceed according to law.


Dave

I didnt miss the point I was asking for clarification i.e. is it a risk or a real event

[dirk.bruere]

If it is the lack of 'sensei', then surely he should also have pulled you up for not referring to Todoroki as sensei. I also note that Doshin So is rarely referred to as 'kaiso' or Yuki So as 'kancho' on this forum.

C'mon, lets be realistic, this is a public forum, not an official letter or a legal document.

Steve W was pointedly referring to his own teacher of several decades without the honorific.

In this forum there are only two people I refer to with the honorific "sensei", and that is my own teacher and his teacher (Sensei Jee and Sensei Mizuno). So, Steve, is Sensei Jee still "Sensi Jee" or just plain "Jee" - or are you waiting to see whether he remains on your side or not?

[Steve Williams]

Dirk, you will believe whatever you want to believe regardless of what I say.

So there is no point in me saying more (but I will anyway), the lack of the honorific does not diminish my respect for Mizuno SENSEI, but you don't believe that do you......

Would it change your view if I were to tell you that many of Mizuno sensei's most vocal supporters refer to him as "Miz" in e-mail and discussion...... and I used to have a major problem with that, but I realise that this is not necessarily any lack of respect, and although I would never refer to him in this way I don't hold it against those individuals.

[dirk.bruere]

Dirk, you will believe whatever you want to believe regardless of what I say.

So there is no point in me saying more (but I will anyway), the lack of the honorific does not diminish my respect for Mizuno SENSEI, but you don't believe that do you......

Would it change your view if I were to tell you that many of Mizuno sensei's most vocal supporters refer to him as "Miz" in e-mail and discussion...... and I used to have a major problem with that, but I realise that this is not necessarily any lack of respect, and although I would never refer to him in this way I don't hold it against those individuals.

So basically, you have always used the honorific when writing of him on e-budo, until now.

[Steve Williams]

Actually No.
There was one post where I referred to him twice as "Tameo Mizuno".........

But apart from that, Yes.

So I bow to your better judgement and of course you must be correct in your assumption because how can I explain it any other way..........

What a bad two-faced person I am eh........

[dirk.bruere]

Actually No.
There was one post where I referred to him twice as "Tameo Mizuno".........

But apart from that, Yes.

So I bow to your better judgement and of course you must be correct in your assumption because how can I explain it any other way..........

What a bad two-faced person I am eh........

Depends.
It certainly seems a calculated matter of disrespect to change ones behaviour by dropping the honorific in today's circumstances when previously it had been consistently "sensei". Of course, if you (or anyone else) had always referred to him "Tameo" or "Mizuno" or "Miz" and had continued to do so I would not have mentioned it.

It's the pointed change that I see in some other posters as well that I don't like. I view it as a kind of gloating disloyalty ie "now he's down we can give that ****** a good kicking and he can't hit back" kind of attitude. No doubt it is just a mild extension of the appalling behaviour that has preceded all of this over the past year. A true failure of Shorinji Kempo as a spiritual/religious way.

[Steve Williams]

I view it as a kind of gloating disloyalty .As far as i'm concerned you could not be more wrong, but thats my opinion......

[Steve Williams]

What a bad two-faced person I am eh........

Just in case there was any doubt, this was said with my tongue in my cheek, I do not really think of myself as a bad or two faced person.

[dirk.bruere]

Just in case there was any doubt, this was said with my tongue in my cheek, I do not really think of myself as a bad or two faced person.

Very few people do.
I expect Hitler and Stalin thought that they themselves were quite decent people. It's really something for others to judge.

[Rob Gassin]

Stupid argument above. Steve knows what his motive (or lack of) is, Dirk can only assume what it is and has decided to assume the worst case scenario.

Unless Dirk has the ability to read Steve's mind, he is wasting his and our time.

[dirk.bruere]

Stupid argument above. Steve knows what is motive (or lack of) is, Dirk can only assume what it is and has decided to assume the worst case scenario.

Unless has the ability to read Steve's mind, he is wasting his and our time.

I'm not particularly referring to Steve W.
It's the whole question of why some posters now no longer refer to "Sensei Mizuno" (as they did habitually previously) but "Mizuno". Maybe I am assuming the worst but I really do not think it is a belated outbreak of egalitarianism.

As for judgments of character or intent, such deductions can be made only on the evidence of actions. Like you say, I'm not a mind reader.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Almost in the opposite direction I have finally got around to systematizing my knowledge of technology blended with the occult - technoshamanism. It is, I believe, a unique approach ranging from conventional hypnotic and NLP techniques to the effects of electromagnetic fields and direct current on the brain, to trance induction tech to the more bizarre stuff like the CIA Remote Viewing programs and psychokinesis. At some point I plan to teach courses in it.


I'm not a mind reader.

Words out of context. Sentences referred to in order to draw the readers attention to something the original author did not intend.

:) Please forgive me Dirk, you know I'm only offering some gentle mockery.. no insult is intended. You can probably see from my expression that I mean no harm - are you viewing me right now?.

[dirk.bruere]

Of course! But as you well know, it is very unusual to have a good teacher and a good practitioner in a single person. And although I can do some of the Derren Brown tricks, I prefer the "ideology".

[Indar]

I'm not particularly referring to Steve W.
It's the whole question of why some posters now no longer refer to "Sensei Mizuno" (as they did habitually previously) but "Mizuno". Maybe I am assuming the worst but I really do not think it is a belated outbreak of egalitarianism.

As for judgments of character or intent, such deductions can be made only on the evidence of actions. Like you say, I'm not a mind reader.

We have been told that over the last year or so there has been a lot of email correspondance within the BSKF. I haven't been involved, or seen any of these emails, but have heard that some of his students have been extremely rude and disrespectful to senior members of that organisation, and also to senior members of WSKO/Hombu.

If this is true then it really doesn't do him any credit.

If this is something that you want to pursue then why don't you talk to your sensei ? I tend to suspect that he might agree.

[dirk.bruere]

We have been told that over the last year or so there has been a lot of email correspondance within the BSKF. I haven't been involved, or seen any of these emails, but have heard that some of his students have been extremely rude and disrespectful to senior members of that organisation, and also to senior members of WSKO/Hombu.

If this is true then it really doesn't do him any credit.

If this is something that you want to pursue then why don't you talk to your sensei ? I tend to suspect that he might agree.

From what I've heard there is little credit on either "side".
And two wrongs do not make a right, unless you think it just fine to talk of "Mizuno" as a form of revenge for the slights they allegedly inflicted upon WSKO bureaucrats.

[Indar]

From what I've heard there is little credit on either "side".
And two wrongs do not make a right, unless you think it just fine to talk of "Mizuno" as a form of revenge for the slights they allegedly inflicted upon WSKO bureaucrats.

It would only be revenge if he was in any way bothered about how people refer to him on e-budo.

I doubt that his ego is that fragile.

[dirk.bruere]

It would only be revenge if he was in any way bothered about how people refer to him on e-budo.

I doubt that his ego is that fragile.

I'm less concerned about the fragility of his ego than the conduct of fellow kenshi. Is this something you really want to be part of?

[Indar]

I'm less concerned about the fragility of his ego than the conduct of fellow kenshi. Is this something you really want to be part of?

its a truism that we tend to evaluate other peoples behaviour in the light of our own attitudes, i.e. an individuals comments often say more about the person making the comment than the person that the comment is directed at.

you assume that Steve W. is being malicious.

He's not. That's my job, and he knows it. ;)

[dirk.bruere]

its a truism that we tend to evaluate other peoples behaviour in the light of our own attitudes, i.e. an individuals comments often say more about the person making the comment than the person that the comment is directed at.

you assume that Steve W. is being malicious.

He's not. That's my job, and he knows it. ;)

Quite - I accept his statement he made on the matter, at face value.
My observation was not primarily about his behaviour but others posting here. Go and look.

What I see are echoes of what has to be one of the most shameful episodes of any organization I have ever been associated with. Senior kenshi who profess to ***teach***, and live, core elements of Zen and Buddhism trading the most base insults as their egos took control of their mouths (or fingers, if typing). A total failure of everything Shorinji Kempo stands for, by the very people who should be setting the highest standards to their students.

And you above seem to be offering some casual justification along the lines of "they did it too", which ranks alongside "he started it" in playground fights.
This is all on record in multiple emails - a record of shame that I sincerely hope those involved deeply regret and which will never be repeated under *any* circumstances.

[Steve Williams]

So I think we are all in agreement (a first? ;) ) that it should all be "left alone", so I would suggest that we all do exactly that.

[dirk.bruere]

___Gassho___