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Fred27
31st March 2010, 16:30
I was watching the samurai movie "The Hidden Blade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da0KvKm6hP0)" the other day and in one of the scenes, right before the hero has to fight a sword-battle, he prepares his sword by sticking it into a pile of what looks like sand or maybe gravel. He sticks it into the gravel a few times then wipes it clean.
What exactly is he doing?

Stefffen
31st March 2010, 16:52
Maybe dulling the sword.

paradoxbox
31st March 2010, 17:15
yep, dulling it, slightly dull swords make worse cuts than sharp swords (the wounds bleed more and cause more damage)

Fred27
31st March 2010, 18:24
I didnt know that. Thanks :):toast:

pgsmith
31st March 2010, 20:28
yep, dulling it, slightly dull swords make worse cuts than sharp swords (the wounds bleed more and cause more damage)
I hardly believe that this was the reason for dulling swords before battle. If you get cut by a Japanese sword, the difference between being cut by a sharper or duller sword is not going to be significant. I was told that the reason it was done was to help prevent chipping from contact with armor, as a sharper edge is a thinner edge. My personal belief is that this practice is more of an old wives' tale rather than actual recorded fact. However, I am not a historian and so haven't examined records from old Japan to support my beliefs.

paradoxbox
31st March 2010, 22:37
try cutting yourself lightly with a sharp razor blade or a kitchen knife sharpened very well.

the cut will close up almost instantly and you may not even bleed or have any indication of being cut afterward.

then try the same thing after you slightly dull the blade by dragging it on some steel wool or some other surface lightly. the same action will produce a horribly bloody cut that will take ages to heal. (i know this from shaving with a straight edge razor.. :D )

might not make a huge difference if you get a good cut on somebody, but if you barely nick them it could be the difference between them continuing the fight or bleeding all over the place and passing out.

wreddock
31st March 2010, 23:20
yep, dulling it, slightly dull swords make worse cuts than sharp swords (the wounds bleed more and cause more damage)
Another sword myth to add to my collection.

pgsmith
1st April 2010, 17:02
might not make a huge difference if you get a good cut on somebody, but if you barely nick them it could be the difference between them continuing the fight or bleeding all over the place and passing out.
Hmmm ... I guess I'm going to have to discuss those "just nick them" kata with my sensei. :)

Fred27
1st April 2010, 17:28
I have no opinion. I'm no historian either and I'd never heard of this type of sword treatment before. The fight featured in the movie wasnt a fight with armor though.

paradoxbox
1st April 2010, 19:02
Look, I don't know about its actual use as a historical technique, but the reasons for doing it are quite obvious - have none of you ever cut yourself with a dull knife before??

It's not something that takes consulting with your teacher to find out - compare the last paper cut you got with the last shaving nick you got.

It's way way way worse to be cut by a less than razor sharp edge than it is to get cut by something that's honed perfectly.

pgsmith
1st April 2010, 23:33
It's not something that takes consulting with your teacher to find out - compare the last paper cut you got with the last shaving nick you got.
But I don't swing a razor or a piece of paper. If I contact your body with a sword, I guarantee that you'll bleed copiously even though I tend to keep my swords quite sharp. You're trying very hard to convince me that your orange is much better than my apple.
You're more than welcome to believe anything you wish. My personal belief is that the whole "dulling the sword before battle" thing is more of a story than a historical fact, despite what I've been told by a senior practitioner.

Tom Karazozis
2nd April 2010, 14:12
I am guessing that he knew he was going to use the "oni no tsume" technique which is slicing the abdomen open, but used the old wives tale and dulled the blade so that he would not kill the guy owing to the fact that he was his friend...

ichibyoshi
2nd April 2010, 14:43
I thought the "Oni no tsume" technique was the one he used at the end on the lecherous old dude with the protate problem. The trick that "Toda sensei" (played by the legendary Butoh dancer Min Tanaka) taught him was just an expedient to get him out of trouble with a superior swordsman. That's how I read it anyway.

The question still stands as a good one I reckon and worth someone having a go at answering with some real research. I'd have a go but a) my Japanese is not good enough, b) I don't have access to historical references in Japanese, and c) I'm busy heading off to bed...

b

Tom Karazozis
2nd April 2010, 15:17
I thought the "Oni no tsume" technique was the one he used at the end on the lecherous old dude with the protate problem.

You're totally right. I meant the move where he turns his eyes and back to him... Anyway, this is only fiction, so there is not much value discussing or arguing about why he stuck his blade in a pile of sand... Nevertheless, the movie was still quite good, but I preferred Tasogare Seibei.

Richard Scardina
5th April 2010, 05:26
I would like to chime in and say small nicks or scratches are in no comparison to large razor sharp cuts from a sword. The sharper the sword, the more penetration and damage.

Another myth: Samurai used to test the sharpeness of their sword on cutting horse with the ___(insert qty here) horse test

Bruno
12th April 2010, 10:11
then try the same thing after you slightly dull the blade by dragging it on some steel wool or some other surface lightly. the same action will produce a horribly bloody cut that will take ages to heal. (i know this from shaving with a straight edge razor.. :D )


I shave with, restore antique, and make new straight razors :)
If you got cut like that with a straight, it was nowhere near sharp enough. A 'shaveready' straight should be able to cut a hair if it falls on the edge of the blade.

A sharp edge can indeed cut quite deep, and provided it was clean, you can simply close the wound with a band aid and it will heal quickly and without a scar. Cuts from a dull or chipped edge otoh will indeed take ages to heal.

It is also true that the sharper an edge, the more likely it is to chip.
That said I don't know if anyone would treat his sword like that just to provide this questionable advantage.

Richard Scardina
13th April 2010, 03:39
I am still trying to find actual data that supports this "dull blade" concept. So far, it doesn't make history for warriors to dull their swords-blades.

Bruno
15th April 2010, 11:02
Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.

Fred27
15th April 2010, 12:55
Just to be clear here:
:)

I don't automatically believe everything I see in movies. This particular movie didn't seem like a ninja-magic-superpower type movie and by the looks of it I figured it had a more solid basis in realism, unlike Zatoichi (2003) for instance.

Richard Scardina
16th April 2010, 04:07
Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.
Well, it wasnt sharpen just because a polisher thought so.

From its very design the sword and the sword maker, was about the cutting of the blade.

It didnt matter if a dull blade can do damage, it was a matter to cut, slice, or penetrate deeply, thus the reason for sharpeness. (Just like a sharp knife for a tomatoe)

The pride was not only about polishing, which was part of the maintenance, but sharpening was also a part of the maintenance, and there was pride how well a blade could cut.

Rennis
16th April 2010, 05:28
Sword polishing has always (generally speaking) been done by professional polishers, and historically, the practical aspect outweighed the aesthetic aspect. If a slightly duller edge would have been preferable for use in battle, the polisher would have created a slightly duller edge.

There are in fact different polishes for shiny nice art swords and ones that are being used for practice with the later being somewhat less polished than the former. That said the primary reason for that is that the extremely fine art polishes tend to be subject to more corrosion and the like from finger oils, etc and just one use can ruin the polish completely (makes the sword look like hell with nice fingerprints all over the blade), where as the "duller" (if we want to split hairs) polish used for, for example, swords used in iai does not show just "oil damage" as it were, as readily.

With that said, in the 13 years since I first came to Japan, I have talked with many martial artists, sword smiths, token dealers and the like (many of them being involved in two or three of the said activities at once) and I while I have had discussions on all matter of sword myth, stories of sword usage, things you'd actually do with your blade, edge versus shinogi blocking and just about everything else but I have NEVER once heard of this idea of thrusting your sword into sand to make it duller or that "duller" was preferable for damage to the enemy. As was mentioned before, swords with extreme polishes sometimes are subject to chipping more readily as well, but the "sharpness versus damage to the enemy" factor is just something that has never come up anywhere (in fact I first heard about it on this very thread).

For what it is worth,

Brian Owens
6th May 2010, 07:25
Well, it wasnt sharpen just because a polisher thought so.

...The pride was not only about polishing, which was part of the maintenance, but sharpening was also a part of the maintenance, and there was pride how well a blade could cut.

I think you're a bit unclear about what a sword polisher does. "Polishing" is the final step in the production of a blade, and it refers to sharpening the edge and smoothing the surface, not just to "making it shine." In feudal-era Japan, as today, polishing (sharpening) is often done by a specialist rather than by the smith.

A sword polisher does also restore dull blades, and today bringing out the aesthetic qualities of the blade is an important function; but first and formost the sword polisher's job is to refine the edge.

Richard Scardina
6th May 2010, 07:27
I think you're a bit unclear about what a sword polisher does. "Polishing" is the final step in the production of a blade, and it refers to sharpening the blade. In feudal-era Japan, as today, polishing (sharpening) is often done by a specialist rather than by the smith.

A sword polisher does also restore dull blades, and today bringing out the aesthetic qualities of the blade is an important function; but first and formost the sword polisher's job is to refine the edge.

Thank you with utmost sincerity for the post.

However, not making excuses, I am from a culture / mindset, that takes a word literally

Brian Owens
6th May 2010, 07:38
Thank you with utmost sincerity for the post.

However, not making excuses, I am from a culture / mindset, that takes a word literally

That can be problematic when dealing with an art from a culture with a different language than the one being used in discussions.

"Sword polishing" is a reasonable translation of togi, but doesn't convey the entirety of what togi does.

Bruno
6th May 2010, 11:50
Also, polishing is the correct terminology. Polishing is the action of removing scratches and imperfections from a surface. When a sword is sharpened, that process (polishing) is exactly what is being done to the surface material surrounding the edge.

Sharpening and polishing are 2 words that can be used to describe the same thing, as long as the edge not chipped or really blunted. If visible damage needs to be removed, then the term polishing is no longer appropriate.

A sword polisher does both things though. The sword as it comes from the smith is not really sharp. It is only sharpened enough to insure that the blade is structurally sound. All the actual sharpening / polishing is done by the sword polisher, not the smith.

Wakimono
7th May 2010, 10:20
I read recently in a book ( I can't remember wich one) that thrusting a sword into sand to scratching the blade was to prevent the edge for chipping

I hope this helps

Richard Scardina
7th May 2010, 13:21
I read recently in a book ( I can't remember wich one) that thrusting a sword into sand to scratching the blade was to prevent the edge for chipping

I hope this helps

As with many books, some facts are twisted.

Speaking of books, what are some good reference books about swords?

Brian Owens
7th May 2010, 20:03
...Speaking of books, what are some good reference books about swords?

The Samurai Sword by John Yumoto is one of the classic English-language books on the subject. It's a bit dated (copyright 1958), but has information on blade construction, lists of prominant smiths from the various pre-Meiji periods, etc.

The Craft of the Japanese Sword by Leon Kapp, Hiroko Kapp, and Yoshindo Yoshihara is a newer book that has lots of good photographs, and concentrates on the work of modern smiths who work mostly in the traditional manner.

The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon Kapp, and Hiroko Kapp is an in-depth look at the work of sword polishers.

My copies of the latter two are in storage right now, but one of them (I think it's The Craft of the Japanese Sword, but I'm not positive) also has a chapter on crafting saya.

There are other works directed primarily at sword collectors, but these are good general reference works for anyone interested in an introduction to the art and craft.

My former Iaido sensei, Tatsuhiko Konno, is a token, and he used to sell a video about polishing, but his Web site seems to be no longer active. If I can find a source I'll post it here.

Bruno
8th May 2010, 11:28
The Art of Japanese Sword Polishing by Setsuo Takaiwa, Yoshindo Yoshihara, Leon Kapp, and Hiroko Kapp is an in-depth look at the work of sword polishers.


I have this one. It's a masterpiece.
It goes in depth in the polishing / sharpening matter, but it also discusses the structure and the metallurgy of Japanese swords.

hyaku
9th May 2010, 05:45
A well known smith who makes blade and replica for museums tells me they forged lots of blades before a battle and used them with the rough grinding marks still on them. On many occasions I have visited him and we have tried out a new blade before polishing. He mostly makes 'usable' blades for tameshigiri.