"Cross Training"?

[ahc1272]

Hello everyone. This is my first post: I joined to get more educated on traditional Japanese martial arts. Very nice to be here and nice to meet everyone here!

I have a question for those practicing tradtional kenjutsu/iaijutsu (or in correlation to a complete bujutsu system)... Do you cross train in other sword related arts such as (and I am particularly interested in) kendo?
(And for that matter... are you allowed to?) What about other martial arts?

I am interested in making more regular trips to Japan (I have family there so it's possible) to study kenjutsu/bujutsu systems. And I am currently practicing kendo... Just curious.

Thank you in advance
Al Chang

[Ken-Hawaii]

Aloha, Al, & welcome to the forum.

My wife & I study Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu iaido under our Sensei who also teaches kendo. She trains in kendo, while I do not (I teach judo & European fencing, which keeps me busy enough!). Our Sensei claims that iaido & kendo are extremely complementary martial arts because in iaido, you only have a virtual opponent, while in kendo you have a real one who is training opposite you.

We both also train in Shinto Muso-Ryu jodo, where we most definitely have an opponent, & that Sensei is developing a series of iai waza that do not have an opponent, but certainly do prepare us for the jodo kata.

Does this help, or have I just confused you?

[hyaku]

Well I do more than one art and teach more than one. I have done both Iaido and Kendo for years in Japan. But cross training is not good way to describe it. Problem lies in the fact that one tends do mix them up most of the time subconciously. One tends to substitute the bits one does not know in one art by filling in with the other.

It can be done though. As with anything its a lifetimes work. Kikentai timing with Jutsu and Kendo differ greatly.

Good luck.

[J. Mijares]

Hi Al,

Welcome to E-Budo!

I study Nakamura Ryu Batto-Do and the late Nakamura Sensei had always said that he believed a well-rounded swordsman should practice iai (for technique), kendo (for maai/distance and -- as Ken said -- knowing how to deal with a real opponent), and tameshigiri (for technique in actually cutting through a real target).

Iai and Kendo are definitely complementary.

Cheers,
Jay

[Guy Buyens]

I have a question for those practicing tradtional kenjutsu/iaijutsu (or in correlation to a complete bujutsu system)... Do you cross train in other sword related arts such as (and I am particularly interested in) kendo?
(And for that matter... are you allowed to?) What about other martial arts?


Well, this is an interesting "first" contribution.

First of all, I believe there is a difference between gendai budo and koryu. I am a true believer that training in gendai budo is an excellent way to prepare, complement or even help to develop aspects of a koryu. Therefore any combination of a koryu with for instance kendo (or may-be especially kendo) is theoretically a good thing, provided you are not at a level where what you are supposed to do differently, confuses more than it helps you to progress.

I have a long Karate background and although in theory this has nothing in common with the traditional jujutsu I am doing now, it surely was a big help in getting me to understand techniques faster.

When it comes to iaijutsu and kenjutsu, I also love to complement it with kendo and my only frustration is that I don’t have enough time to do this more.

In Koryu, combining different schools is more tricky. Becoming part of such a system is also starting to belong to a family, headed by a soke. So my suggestion is to do nothing without discussing it with your soke.

In the past (when the 18th soke was in charge), I did different iai schools to complement what we did and recently, we were able to attend classes of yari from Hozoin-ryu in Nara but this was in agreement with our soke (in fact he came along to introduce us and we received a lot of attention from their menkyo kaiden, since we were considered guests). I also had the chance to participate in different embu in Japan and afterwards there were always friendly meetings with different schools and besides drinking, it always ended up with discussion on how a specific situation is approached.

I know of several people involved in different koryu at the same time and when their core technique is complementary (for instance a naginata school and a kenjutsu school), I can understand it. Nevertheless, I do wonder how you can consider yourself a true follower of both or how to position yourself in the art that you do only to complement your main system. Note that this is my own reflection and I don't want to lecture any-one who has a different approach.

In any case, good luck with your study.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Guy, you're awfully lucky if you can ask your Soke about anything at all! In Eishin-Ryu, there are probably about a half-dozen layers between even my Sensei & our Soke. And as far as asking him whether I should study another martial art, that just ain't gonna' happen!

I've trained & taught both judo & European fencing since the early 50s, & my MJER Sensei was kind enough to let Linda & me train in SMR jodo as well. I personally think that this level of permission should be handled at the sensei level. Our jodo Sensei does have Menkyo Kaiden, & certainly has no problem with my other training, & in fact appreciates the fact that I can add details found in, say, saber fencing. In fact, he has already modified at least two of our kata based on my observations. Truly a living art!

[Guy Buyens]

In Eishin-Ryu, there are probably about a half-dozen layers between even my Sensei & our Soke. And as far as asking him whether I should study another martial art, that just ain't gonna' happen!

Points well taken, our situation is somewhat different.


I've trained & taught both judo & European fencing since the early 50s, & my MJER Sensei was kind enough to let Linda & me train in SMR jodo as well. I personally think that this level of permission should be handled at the sensei level. Our jodo Sensei does have Menkyo Kaiden, & certainly has no problem with my other training, & in fact appreciates the fact that I can add details found in, say, saber fencing. In fact, he has already modified at least two of our kata based on my observations. Truly a living art!

I also admit that although many old schools want to preserve their tradition, almost every soke from time to time has made minor adjustments based on personal experience. Of course a solid background includes information from training and exchanging with other people. There should be no contradiction between traditional art and living art.

There is although a difference between occasional training in another system and progressing to a more advanced level in 2 systems at the same time, especially when the systems are related (e.g. both kenjutsu or both jujutsu). And again this probably is only relevant in systems where the DEN students interact closely with their reciproke soke.

[ahc1272]

Thank you for the quick and informative replies!! :)
I currently do have a live blade and although i don't feel proficient with it, it's not a "dead" blade in my hands.... I'm still in the process of becoming friends with the blade ;)

I was worried that some teachers of iai/ken jutsu schools would not permit training in other sword arts. I find kendo (at least the way I'm learning it) very fast paced and very rigorous.

Also it's amazing :) I'm interested in several styles of swordsmanship... one of them being Nakamura style swordsmanship... I first saw Nakamura in the documentary "Budo"..... Do you study this style in Japan?? Where in Japan can I find a dojo that teaches it?

Thank you
Al Chang

[socho]

the main dojo is in Yokohama, and there are branches and affiliated federations dojo throughout Japan (and several outside of Japan). If you PM me with where you might visit, I can ask if there is a dojo nearby.

Dave

[Chidokan]

I used to do kendo, seitei and MJER... however had to drop kendo due to injury, and dropped the seitei when I realised that it was 'interfering' with my MJER practise as Colin mentions above. I also came to realise that to be any good at something I only have a limited time each week and should focus on just the one...
I miss the kendo, but I have learnt to live without it...:D

[ichibyoshi]

Many of the senior exponents of Tatsumi Ryu Hyoho have practiced or continue to practice kendo. For example the current Headmaster's father actively practiced both kendo and judo to a high level and in 1937 was awarded Kendo Renshi 5th dan at the tender age of 24 (at that time 5th dan was the highest dan awarded by the DNBK). Some more details here (http://www.melbournekoryu.com.au/Sakura.html).

b

[Fred27]

Quick comment: I find that Iai complement SMR-Jo quite nicely :)

[Chuck.Gordon]

Depends on what you mean by 'cross-training' ...

I practice the sword and other weapons systems that fall under the broader jujutsu system I've studied for about 35 years, but also train in Shinto Muso Ryu jo and Shinto Hatakage Ryu iai. I've done MJER iai (through the omori Ryu only, however), but haven't practiced that much lately, and have dabbled in a handful of other arts through seminars or personal exchanges.

Limited time and all that. Additionally, I find it necessary to mentally compartmentalize the various studies that I DO have time and energy for, as the core physical 'philosophies' are somewhat different in each (comparing, for instance the most basic of cutting motions in kiri otoshi, for example).

Has the SHR informed my SMR? I couldn't say that it has in any broad way, but observing and contrasting the approaches to close armed combat IS interesting, and exposes some of what may be openings (in at least the most basic application of techniques) due to the divergence of methodologies.

Mainly, each of the systems I train in offers something for me, and, importantly, is engaging, interesting, challenging and fun. If they weren't, I wouldn't do them.

I don't expect to become a latter-day samurai, I know better than that (despite some rather misguided notions when I was a younger budo student), and primarily seek to fulfill a need and desire internally, to know more about the systems, get better and physically and mentally representing the activities contained therein, and ... again ... have fun doing so.

To expect anything different, I think, is a bit unrealistic. YMMV, of course ...

[Langenschwert]

I would say from my own experience that training in two different arts has been very beneficial. In my case, both German longsword and HNIR. At first, it was hard separating the two (especially the hand position at the end of a strike), but I think I'm getting better at it. What I'm finding lately is a good synergy between the two. I'm lucky to have good training partners. I add to this a lot of work by myself, but the bulk of my solo training time consists of fundamentals that are common (or nearly so) to both arts. That way I can "double dip" to a certain degree. At this stage in my development, training in one certainly seems to help my performance in the other. Could be in my head, but I don't think so.

The usual adivce for this kind of thing is to get a good grounding in one art before adding another.

I guess you could liken it to learning both Spanish and Latin at the same time. There are bound to be mixups, but with diligent practice you can become fluent in both without making a hybrid of the two.

Best regards,

-Mark

[Ken-Hawaii]

I definitely agree with Fred that SMR jodo is a great complement to MJER, especially as I don't train in kendo. I thought my many years of European fencing would make up for the difference, but ma-ai is not something that can be cross-trained quite like that....

And I'm particularly lucky that my SMR Sensei is ready & willing to consider incorporating techniques from other martial arts! :D

[DDATFUS]

I guess you could liken it to learning both Spanish and Latin at the same time. There are bound to be mixups, but with diligent practice you can become fluent in both without making a hybrid of the two.


That's a pretty good analogy. Start studying Spanish after getting three or four years of Latin under your belt and your Latin will help you pick up Spanish more rapidly and appreciate it more deeply even if you are keeping the two languages strictly separate. Start studying Spanish and Latin on the same day and you are in for years of constant confusion. Or so I would expect; I'm hardly a linguist.

[ahc1272]

Wow thanks for all the thoughtful replies :)
I'm getting a general picture that with permission and careful selection training in kendo and a live-blade art is "OK" if not beneficial. I'm not a "newb" at kendo, i've been training one on one with my master for a while but definitely never satisfied with my swordwork.

The next process: how to choose, but I guess that's a new thread :)
I have an idea of the styles I want to train in...

Anyway thank you everyone for posting :)

[gendzwil]

I'm curious where you are training kendo. You mention one-on-one training, use of a live blade and refer to your instructor as a "master", which all suggest to me you are not training kendo as is commonly understood.

[ahc1272]

Hi there... No it's the "kendo" as most know it :).... I train in Korea with a 6 dan practitioner... I started in the states but currently an "expat". One of my father's friends younger brother to whom my father did some favors.... I guess he took me on.... He really "meets me halfway there" and never holds back. I train about two or three times a week but it seems much more because we get lunch and coffee afterwards and spend a lot of time discussing martial arts.
We do some of the standardized kendo kata, sometimes with live blades and sometimes cutting.... Nothing fancy :)

I'm interested in making regular trips to Japan now to continue training. I'm looking to delve into a samurai martial art system that is practical and holistic. Definitely reading up here and finding lots of interesting things :)

Thank you all
Al Chang

[gendzwil]

Trainiing in Korea, using live blades and test cutting - are you doing Haedong Gumdo or some variation?

[ahc1272]

Hi there! oh no no. Just normal kendo. ie competition kendo?
Live blade work isn't done too often but I try to handle the blade at least once a day: Live blade work: the two men, kata, basic drawing and very occasionally cutting. There are one or two forms I believe that are strictly Korean though. In Korea one of the interesting things is that there are professional kendo-ists who train on professional teams. Some of them do take part in exchange programs with Japan. One of my teachers was on the national team and another is an ex-pro player. I think kendo is great to be practiced with a "live blade" mentality... but there are some techniques that can't or shouldn't be done if the blades were real. :)
So I guess I'm still very focused on kendo but looking to delve more deeply into swordsmanship and live bladework in Japan :)

Thanks
Al Chang

[gendzwil]

It's just that kendoka don't train with live blades. We'll use mogitoh (dull practice swords) sometimes to demonstrate kata, but we practice kata with bokken. We don't train test cutting.

You'll find even that for koryu, most of the training is with bokken or mogitoh. Any kata with live steel would be solo, not paired.

[Guy Buyens]

You'll find even that for koryu, most of the training is with bokken or mogitoh. Any kata with live steel would be solo, not paired.

I can’t speak for other schools but in our school kumidachi kata when demonstrated for instance for Nippon budokan events, are performed with shinken.

I had the chance to demonstrate our kodachi kata twice in such an occasion (once in Itsukushima, Miyajima and once in Tokyo in the Nippon budokan) and I can assure you that both me as well as my opponent were using a shinken.

More-over I think it is important because when I watch the demonstration on video I can’t say I performed it with the same confidence as with iai-to. I am now training with a shinken and it is improving, so I think it is an important aspect of what we do.

On the other hand I only started to use a shinken in kata after some 17 years of training. Before that I only used it for cutting.

[gendzwil]

Thanks for the clarification. I think it's important to note that you were fairly experienced before you performed your kata with shinken.

[DDATFUS]

Hi Neil,

As long as we're clarifying, I know of a few other koryu (including the one in which I train) where live blades are used for paired training. In my school there is a set of kata that is usually learned at first with bokken and then using steel swords-- sometimes mogito, sometimes live blades.

On his website, Nathan Scott quotes a friend's description of a Jikishinkage-ryu enbu featuring these live-blade kata:


In fact I saw one especially memorable demonstration by members of the Jikishinkage ryu in which two swordsmen used real swords in a sustained period of extremely fast and powerful attack-parry-counter attack. (What I would characterize as two-person combination ukenagashi-kirikaeshi, although my terminology might not be understood outside of Kashima-Shinryu). Sparks flew into the air throughout the exchange. Afterwards I got to look at the swords they used. They had so many nicks in their blades that they practically looked like saw teeth.

If I recall correctly, Maniwa Nen Ryu has a set of kata that are also practiced with shinken (in his essay on the art Ellis Amdur suggests that this is a relatively recent innovation). I've watched footage of Kashima Shinto Ryu guys using steel swords of some type for several of their advanced sets-- no idea if they are using shinken or mogito, but I suspect the former. Ditto with Tatsumi Ryu. I think that Ellis describes doing live-blade training with his Araki-ryu instructor on a regular basis in one of his essays somewhere. Ono-ha Itto Ryu has some kata that I think are practiced with live blades, and so does Mizoguchi-ha Itto Ryu. Oh, and now that I'm thinking about it, I think that I saw Dave Drawdy's Mugai Ryu study group perform two-person kata with shinken at Swordfest '09-- very solid stuff.

Not too long ago I watched a video of a pair of kids-- and I mean kids, looked middle-school age at most, at an enbu in Japan first perform tameshigiri and then perform two-person kata with the same blades. Can't recall if their school was an old or a modern art.

EDIT: Oh, actually, here's the video I was just talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WfzAOtDHsQ&feature=related Not the most dramatic swordwork that I've ever seen, but for kids with shinken I was impressed. If you hunt around youtube you'll find some examples of the Kashima Shinto Ryu stuff I was referring to as well, and maybe some of the Itto Ryu.

Anyway, my point being that live blades are used in several koryu, usually but not necessarily as an advanced thing.

[gendzwil]

Consider me schooled. Thanks!

[ahc1272]

Wow interesting stuff! :)
In Korea the kendo kata are performed with live blades after 4 or 5 dan for the dan tests. Don't know the history about how that started though.
No horror stories, but there have been a few "pricks" and "cuts" from what i've heard.

I know a few japanese teachers who studied kendo and not koryu who also did tameshigiri but not extensively. In general they had friends/aquaintances that were involved more deeply (I think) in live blade arts and just had "art exchange" cutting sessions for lack of a better term....
For "kata" practice with my teacher we use lighter blades. The heavier blades are not easy to stop perfectly. Also we don't practice at full speed.

When doing a partnerwork kata, i've been told that it's very important to practice "realistically"? (for lack of a better term). For instance, I've seen some people who move out of the way of attacks that would never have hit them in the first place.... Even one session with a live blade gave me an idea about how far the bokken must be, or what angle is ok and what angle isn't.

I knew a koryu practitioner who told me they would practice with live blades and had one or two scars (very small cuts) from partnerwork mistakes.

The blade, bamboo or live, has so many intricacies in handling and so many techniques :) It's such an exciting process to keep learning!
Anyway still reading up on koryu/JSA

Thanks
Al Chang

[wreddock]

All well and good but does your school teach blindfold cutting of cucumbers resting on the students throat and held on the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1F3lYQIpwE

If not then what good is it?


Note from Moderator

Please post bad or questionable Budo in the appropriate place. Not in here.

[Hissho]

Pardon the possible thread drift, but how would one repair those blades - steel or alloy - with the "saw teeth" and chipping and scoring that occurs with realistic hard contact?

[ahc1272]

I'm pretty sure it's almost irreperable (if it's a big chip).... You would have to have them polished out although that does thin the blade....

I've never trained with a live blade to the point of chipping my blade and needing a full blown polish .... perhaps others here would shed some light?

Thanks
Al Chang

[Robert Wilkins]

I've been training Yagyu Shinkage Ryu for only about two months and it has entirely wrecked my aikido swordwork. Which is obviously a sign that the latter was never any good to begin with.

Mr. Judge,

That's weird, as the Aiki-ken I trained in (Saotome Sensei) seems to have been very much influenced by Yagyu technique.

[gendzwil]

That's weird, as the Aiki-ken I trained in (Saotome Sensei) seems to have been very much influenced by Yagyu technique.Saotome-sensei derived his aiki-ken from his aikido techniques, and has been quite upfront about that IIRC.

[Robert Wilkins]

Saotome-sensei derived his aiki-ken from his aikido techniques, and has been quite upfront about that IIRC.

This is true, but Saotome Sensei has also said that during "slow" afternoons, Ueshiba Sensei would teach him sword when no one else was around.

As for the Yagyu influence, I believe it's there. Not overwhelmingly so, but enough that I believe you can make a reasonable argument that it had some influence on the kata he uses in his Aiki-ken curriculum.

[Walker]

I'm pretty sure it's almost irreperable (if it's a big chip).... You would have to have them polished out although that does thin the blade....

I've never trained with a live blade to the point of chipping my blade and needing a full blown polish .... perhaps others here would shed some light?

Thanks
Al Chang

There is a story about Takamura sensei of SYR who warned a student about the unsuitability of a thin hard "cutting" shape blade (one designed for tameshigiri competition). The student ignored his advise and Takamura proceeded to take huge chips out of the blade during a practice session. Immediately after he paid the student for the blade and used it as an example of what not to use and why.

Back in the old days here there were some monster threads on edge to edge receptions and other related issues. They're probably still in the archives.

[hyaku]

Japanese swords are specificaly forged and polished for either Tameshigiri or Iai. There is a lot more niku in a cutting weapon.

All very well cross training if you can still attain a high level in all you do. If they are very different it's not so difficult to do

[Cliff Judge]

Mr. Judge,

That's weird, as the Aiki-ken I trained in (Saotome Sensei) seems to have been very much influenced by Yagyu technique.

Can you expand on this a little? I used to hear this a lot, but I've actually seen more Itto Ryu in there than Yagyu, especially since Saotome Sensei brought Kaiwa Sensei to town a couple years ago - the latter is a high-ranking student of Sasamori Soki as well as Saotome Sensei's apparent "seniormost student who still lives in Japan." There is a lot of "step in, cut down" and also a tendancy to KNOCK aside the other blade that has more of an Itto Ryu feel to it.

But this is all before we get into the issue of Aikido practitioners generally not having any idea of how to cut, which is one symptom of the fact that Aiki-ken is about studying principals of body movement and entering and not about fighting with a sword. Or it could simply be that everybody's so terrible at Saotome Sensei's sword stuff that any inspiration (or actual training, which he would probably never fess to) from YSR has been lost.

A thing I have been curious about for the past couple months is where the nagashi movement we do in our basic kumitachi comes from. I first learned it as a "duck and cover" kind of thing, like what I have seen in some Kashima Shinto Ryu videos. As I progressed I started realizing that there is a lot more that should be going on in that nagashi (the Kashima nagashi seems to involve expanding the maai, whereas in our Aikido kata it accompanies an entering movement). Now when I do it, it feels smooth and connected, which is more of a YSR groove.

There are a lot of moments like that in the Aikido kata now...."hey, wait...why am i moving here to accomplish this? Why is he making his next move?" I never liked the answer "its just the kata" and though I understand that kata are not, as Ellis says, "manifest stories", I still find I need answers to some questions. Now that I am developing some tools to really take a look at these things, I find I am getting all kinds of confused. And sometimes whacked.

So. Perhaps to bring my post back on topic. I hope that as little Aikido as possible makes it into my Yagyu Shinkage Ryu practice. But on the other hand, I enjoy having this new perspective from which to examine the aiki swordwork to try to answer the questions that arise, and try to make the whole thing better. This is NOT what you would want to do if studying two koryu - because that's about maintaining a tradition from an antique age; there's nothing you can or should ADD to the tradition itself. Aikido, on the other hand, is a living budo and, speaking just for myself, I have a mandate to improve it if I can.

[Cliff Judge]

This is true, but Saotome Sensei has also said that during "slow" afternoons, Ueshiba Sensei would teach him sword when no one else was around.

As for the Yagyu influence, I believe it's there. Not overwhelmingly so, but enough that I believe you can make a reasonable argument that it had some influence on the kata he uses in his Aiki-ken curriculum.

Saotome Sensei invented his two sword system and is not too apologetic about being inspired by movies about Musashi.

But he claims that the rest of his sword comes from Ueshiba. Ellis Amdur has talked about the YSR connection to Ueshiba in Hidden in Plan Sight.

There are also more or less well known stories of a period of time when Saotome Sensei was head instructor at Hombu when he would meet with exponents from various martial arts on the top floor of the Hombu for private informal training sessions. This is hearsay though, since it is not Sensei's style to answer questions like "what styles or schools influenced your sword."