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Richard Scardina
12th July 2010, 06:23
Why in Detail is Lineage, Ranking, Certification, so important? Are these just mere tokens in same cases, exchanged for payment or favors. Although, well deserved, is this the only way to state a good teacher or the person who is best suited to guide you?

Kim Taylor
12th July 2010, 15:31
Why in Detail is Lineage, Ranking, Certification, so important? Are these just mere tokens in same cases, exchanged for payment or favors. Although, well deserved, is this the only way to state a good teacher or the person who is best suited to guide you?

Why in detail? How much detail do you want?

Lineage is important if you are concerned with lineage.
Ranking is important if you are concerned with ranking.
Certification is important if you are concerned with certification.

All of them are important if you recognize the lineage, rank and certification bodies as being legitimate and truthful/capable of giving those histories and qualifications.

In other words, it comes down to your decision on who you listen to and who you believe and which organization you wish to trust.

Which means that it comes down to you to decide.

Something you can do by looking at the teacher directly, rather than through a filter of lineage and ranking.

If you seek the answer in lineage and ranking (or by asking folks online) you are delegating the task of decision to someone else, yet that delegation is itself a decision on your part.

Ultimately, it's up to you to decide whether or not your teacher or potential teacher is suitable for you. And then, as someone is sure to point out, it's up to that teacher to decide about you.

Kim.

Richard Scardina
12th July 2010, 15:55
So, it is like chooing a car. Choose one based upon data, car fax, or peer pressure.

Kim Taylor
12th July 2010, 16:20
So, it is like chooing a car. Choose one based upon data, car fax, or peer pressure.

It's like choosing anything, you can't delegate the choice of which ice cream to eat this afternoon without making the decision to delegate the choice. "Surprise me" is still a decision.

Similarly, choosing an ice cream on tradition (our vanilla is from a recipe handed down from our founder's great grandmother), rank (our #1 seller), or certification (the Wollsey Wanderer named our cherry ice cream the best in the county) is no guarantee that you will like it.

The newest, the sweetest, the fiercest, the... lots of choices, lots of criteria to choose sensei, cars or ice cream, including peer pressure. After all, if your buddies are in a martial arts class and they like it, that's going to be a good reason for you to try it out, regardless of lineage, rank or certification of the teacher.

Kim.

Richard Scardina
12th July 2010, 16:26
If ice cream is a popular treat by the mass public, martial arts is a far cry from it.

In today's world, society has a obsession with certification.

I would think, that anyone in martial arts, would try to be the best, not only in the art they study, but for themselves.

However, at more times, this is not enough.

pgsmith
12th July 2010, 18:58
In today's world, society has a obsession with certification.
Not necessarily certification, but with proof. The problem is that there is so much readily available information, much of it at odds with itself, that many people are very unsure just what to believe. The same is all too true in the martial arts. Certification can be had from dozens of organizations for a name and a fee. Martial Arts halls of fame are a dime a dozen, and I can send in my name and any "rank" I choose to a number of different places on-line and receive a "teaching" certificate. None of this means I can or should be teaching anybody anything. However, if I have a high ranking and certification in a particular Japanese art from a well known Japanese organization with known high standards, then that goes a long way toward providing "proof" that I have some idea what I may be talking about.

Ironically enough, it's this desire for proof that has resulted in the plethora of martial arts organizations and "sokeship" councils that are more than willing to take people's money to provide bogus certification. In the end though, we are only really practicing the martial arts for ourselves, and it's whether or not we enjoy the training that's the ultimate "proof".

Richard Scardina
12th July 2010, 20:53
Not necessarily certification, but with proof. The problem is that there is so much readily available information, much of it at odds with itself, that many people are very unsure just what to believe. The same is all too true in the martial arts. Certification can be had from dozens of organizations for a name and a fee. Martial Arts halls of fame are a dime a dozen, and I can send in my name and any "rank" I choose to a number of different places on-line and receive a "teaching" certificate. None of this means I can or should be teaching anybody anything. However, if I have a high ranking and certification in a particular Japanese art from a well known Japanese organization with known high standards, then that goes a long way toward providing "proof" that I have some idea what I may be talking about.

Ironically enough, it's this desire for proof that has resulted in the plethora of martial arts organizations and "sokeship" councils that are more than willing to take people's money to provide bogus certification. In the end though, we are only really practicing the martial arts for ourselves, and it's whether or not we enjoy the training that's the ultimate "proof".

You missed about the honorary exchanges

I give you one in my org, you give me one from your org.

cxt
12th July 2010, 20:53
Richard

You're getting some excellent information above from Kim Taylor and PGSmith

My deeply devauled 2 cents.

Not sure that I would use the term "obsession." There are a huge number of fakes, frauds, con-men etc out there. And having detailed information can go along way towards making a good choice.
Not going to replace taking the time to check things out yourself---but it certainly seldom hurts.

We are living in a world where people advertise places you can get background checks done on just about anybody for a small fee on T.V.
I think it's prudent to get as much info as you can on people/art that you will be spending a tremendous amount of time and effort learning.

That information might...MIGHT....go a long way in helping you make an informed choice.

Is that the "best" way......maybe, maybe not......but I don't think it hurts.

Richard Scardina
13th July 2010, 00:08
Actually, it isnt a matter for me to figure out what to do. This is a simple discussion based upon interaction-not direction.

I am enjoying the responses.

DDATFUS
13th July 2010, 02:48
Whether your teacher needs a long lineage behind his art is a decision entirely up to you. But one thing is certain: if your teacher claims a long lineage, he should be able to back that up in some way. I've seen many, many teachers on this forum and in real life who claimed elaborate lineages going back centuries and who turned out to be total frauds. Some of them were martial arts jokes, incapable of fighting their way out of the proverbial wet paper bag. Some of them were actually decent fighters with something to teach. But all of them lied.

No matter how good an instructor is, if he feels that he has to lie about his own training then that raises certain questions. On a basic level, how can you trust a man to safely teach you potentially dangerous techniques if he can't tell the truth about his own training? On a broader level, our teachers make a huge impact on our lives, even when we don't realize it. In Old School, Ellis Amdur recounts a conversation with Hung I Hsiang. "Be careful with whom you choose to study," Hsiang told him. "You will become who they are, and if you haven't chosen wisely, you'll suffer and other people will, too." Anyone that you spend as much time learning from as you will with a martial arts instructor is going to have a significant influence on your life-- I've seen this in my own life and in the lives of others. If your chosen teacher is a person who builds his life on deceit and if your whole interaction with him is based around a fraud, that can't have a positive impact on your life.

Kim Taylor
13th July 2010, 03:20
... if your teacher claims a long lineage, he should be able to back that up in some way.
...

It suddenly occurs to me that even though I have a lineage that goes back to before 1600 (according to the records) I have trained with the last two generations and that's it. I have not trained with all those teachers back to 1600 so what's the point of claiming them as progenitors?

Really, we train with the last guy in the line, not the first, so lineage or not, our training depends on the abilities of the last guy in line.

Kim.

Richard Scardina
13th July 2010, 04:06
Really, we train with the last guy in the line, not the first, so lineage or not, our training depends on the abilities of the last guy in line.
Kim.


But that guy trained with a previous "last guy" where he had to train with the ability of "that" last guy in line.

And so on.

DDATFUS
13th July 2010, 04:23
Really, we train with the last guy in the line, not the first, so lineage or not, our training depends on the abilities of the last guy in line.


I agree in large part with your point, but I think that the issue can be a bit more complicated. I've seen at least one case where an apparently mediocre instructor whose ryu seemed to have become the type of "living fossil" or "museum piece budo" that koryu exponents try to avoid went on to produce students whose budo was a breathing, active, vital thing. I think that in a ryu that has stood the test of centuries, the lessons are coded in such a way that a student with the right dedication, the right talent, and the right experience can tap into something. Don't get me wrong; the teacher that you train with is enormously important, and I don't think that an ancient lineage automatically trumps a good instructor. But I also think that a school that has managed to survive four or five centuries of both brutal combat and the apathy of peacetime must have something going for it. Even if you've only trained with the last two generations of your four-century-old tradition, you are still standing on top of the lessons that those previous generations learned through blood paid on the battlefield.

Anyway, I'll stand by my earlier point: I don't care if a guy has a lineage dating back to Minamoto no Yoshitsune or if he made it all up on his own. Each teacher stands and falls on his own abilities. But I've never seen anything good come out of a teacher who is dishonest about his training.

Richard Scardina
13th July 2010, 05:44
Therefore, lineage doesn't matter?

Josh Reyer
13th July 2010, 06:49
Therefore, lineage doesn't matter?Depends on the question. If you want detailed answers, it helps to ask detailed questions.

Richard Scardina
13th July 2010, 06:59
Depends on the question. If you want detailed answers, it helps to ask detailed questions.

Fair enough.

It would appear that lienage holds the foundation of history. The identification of martial arts in charecter. Can any martial artists actually do away with lineage?

T. J.
13th July 2010, 16:55
It suddenly occurs to me that even though I have a lineage that goes back to before 1600 (according to the records) I have trained with the last two generations and that's it. I have not trained with all those teachers back to 1600 so what's the point of claiming them as progenitors?

Really, we train with the last guy in the line, not the first, so lineage or not, our training depends on the abilities of the last guy in line.

Kim.

Lineage is important in Japanese culture on a whole. Koryu, and I assume that is what we are talking about here in this forum, comes from a time when linage was very important culturally. Historical or current, these people are part of our nakama, and the nakama - the group- is a pillar of Japanese culture. If we divorce ourselves from that, what we are doing becomes more gendai and less koryu. To a great degree, our participation in koryu arts is about preservation of something very important. Lineage is part of the oral/written tradition of a koryu system. Our brothers and sisters in the various Ryu thought it was important enough to know it, so should we.

It might be less important to gendai systems depending greatly upon the how "traditional" the system is, depending on what degree Japanese culture is stressed in the training, and in which culture we are training.

Richard Scardina
14th July 2010, 09:04
Lineage is important in Japanese culture on a whole. Koryu, and I assume that is what we are talking about here in this forum, comes from a time when linage was very important culturally. Historical or current, these people are part of our nakama, and the nakama - the group- is a pillar of Japanese culture. If we divorce ourselves from that, what we are doing becomes more gendai and less koryu. To a great degree, our participation in koryu arts is about preservation of something very important. Lineage is part of the oral/written tradition of a koryu system. Our brothers and sisters in the various Ryu thought it was important enough to know it, so should we.

It might be less important to gendai systems depending greatly upon the how "traditional" the system is, depending on what degree Japanese culture is stressed in the training, and in which culture we are training.
TJ, that was a great post. Thanks!

Karl Friday
26th July 2010, 06:45
At the risk of being brusque, this whole thread centers on what seems like a rather silly question--or rather, a question that derives from some rather strange premise(s). It might be more profitable to be debating about how lineage could possibly not matter.

As far as I can imagine things, there are only four basic reasons someone might study a martial art at all:

1) As a means to self-defense and fighting skills

2) As a means to the broader kinds of self-development wrapped up in the budo ideal

3) As a means of maintaining contact with the living past--being a part of living history

4) Because it's fun to play with sword or spear or whatever

If your interests are 1 or 4, lineage probably doesn't mean much--if anything at all. Then again, why bother with a teacher at all for 4--you could just as easily make things up yourself or copy moves from movies--and why bother to study anything (except possibly jujutsu) in the koryu syllabus if your primary interest is in 1 (other than as the first step toward 2)? How often are sword, spear, or naginata skills likely to come in handy?

If your motivation is largely 3, on the other hand, there's little room to even ask questions about the importance of lineage. What could be more important, in that context?

And if you're after goal number 2, the importance of lineage and legitimacy is almost as obvious. In this context, lineage and legitimacy assure that you're involved with the real process, rather than a knock off--in traditional metaphors, that you're following an established path that does lead to the top of the mountain, rather than one that's new and untried. That's not to say, of course, that new paths can't be found (or cut), or that the well-documented koryu have some monopoly on The Way. But if you're following a guide who's blazing a new trail, the only way you can be surethat he's headed in the right direction is if you already know the terrain yourself--in which case, why would you need the guide?

The bottom line, I would argue, is that if you're not concerned about issues like lineage and legitimacy, then your interests aren't really in koryu at all; they're in something else. Not, to borrow a line from Jerry Seinfeld, that there's anything wrong with that, but the koryu phenomenon and the appeal thereof is pretty much defined by questions of lineage and legitimacy.

Neil Yamamoto
26th July 2010, 10:30
And upon Dr. Friday's note, I think that about sums it up. I've been a bit tired of Mr. Scardina's posts for a while but let these go since inane questions sometimes lead to very good responses out of irritation to the questions. This was one of those situations.

Thread closed.