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Chip
22nd February 2001, 15:01
I would not normally post something like this here, but since the quote came from here (Sword Arts) I figured that more people would know why it was posted. I'll understand if it gets moved to another forum.

Nathan Scott said under the thread "My final word to E-Budoists"

"Some art's choose to "honor" ranks earned in other arts (more or less), and some art's prefer to start all student's at the beginning regardless of other ranks or experience. This may be a subject worthy of discussion. "

That is a good point. Seeing as I just started Iaido from a Tae Kwon Do and Judo background obviously I had to start over. But, what about similar arts? What is your experience whith changing arts or with new students comming into your art?

Please be nice. This is intended only to find out what you think or have experienced. If you strongly dissagree with someone please do so in an honorable way.


Personally I would have no problem starting at the bottom of any new art, even if it were very similar to my previous experience. Of course, I would expect to advance more quickly than a new student with no experience, but I would want to make sure that I was worthy of advancement. I have known people that have transfered to new arts and been given their black belt in the new art in the first month. Somehow it doesn't seem right. I will not argue the point with anyone. It is really a matter between teacher and student. I just don't see how someone can learn enough in a month to be a shodan in a new albeit similar art. If nothing else it would take more than a month to learn all of the forms. In my TKD school there were 10 forms the shodan had to know.

Gordon Smith
22nd February 2001, 16:05
I've done a fair bit of martial arts "touring" and in every case I was happy to start over at the bottom. When I came to Shotokan Karate, I was specifically instructed by he-who-would-become-my-sensei to continue wearing the black belt I had earned in TKD. personally, I felt very uncomfortable with this notion, as it implied that I knew what I was doing in a Shotokan reference. However, I think he did it to give me confidence to attend high-rank classes. As it was a similar art, I could watch for the variations as opposed to doing the rote training drills designed to teach you how to walk.

I attended classes for a year and a half as what I considered my "faux" rank, and tested for a shodan in Shotokan Karate.

Incidentally, I liked Shotokan Karate better than TKD (this is just a personal observation, BTW), and focused on the Shotokan more than the TKD. As such, when people ask about my TKD rank, I really don't acknowledge it, aside from a passing comment. I couldn't show you the TKD forms, I punch, kick, and spar differently, and so I don't think that I should label myself as having "a black belt in TKD." I only had one.

When I started iai, I had to learn a whole new way of moving and thinking, and felt no qualms about starting at the bottom again. It may also have helped that by trying on several different styles helped remove the "mystique" of rank. We're all learning, some people know more, some people know less.

-G-

Kolschey
22nd February 2001, 17:14
Good Topic!

My own inclination is to try and leave previous rank in the old dojo/organization. There are some cases where a person may have dan rank in the art,which they are capable enough to have honoured in the new dojo without difficulty. One example is a fellow I know who lived in Japan for several years as a personal student to a Japanese instructor. His technique is exceptional, and no one in my old dojo had any question about his dan ranking. On the other hand,I have also seen examples of people who have come into new dojo with rank given in an organization whose standards may substantially differ. This poses some difficulties insofar as students may be likely to expect a certain level of ukemi and technique from their new sempai. When they instead find themselves confronted by a partner who has difficulties applying locks, strikes or throws or even taking safe ukemi from said techniques, this can be a source of serious embarrassment to all parties. If one wishes to carry previous ranking into a new environment, it would be prudent to be sure that you are prepared for the level of skill and intensity which the native sempai of that dojo expect of each other. The same principle can be applied to seminars.

Neil Hawkins
22nd February 2001, 23:42
Well as always I think it depends.

If the arts are similar (say going from Yoshinkan Aikido to Aikikai) then I see no problem with holding onto rank, but it would be up to the school. I have been allowed to grade rapidly, i.e perform all the gradings upto the same level over a short period of time, which is another option in similar styles.

If you're talking a different art, like judo to kendo, then there is no holding rank. I have once done this and was told I could wear my black belt, but I declined the offer and wore a white one. I think the instructor breathed a sigh of relief!

Of course if you are not actually moving to a new style and just training with them whilst on holiday or during a short transfer, then again it depends on the instructor, but I see no problem with wearing your rank from another school.

That said, I make an effort to not tell people my grade or fuss over what belt I wear. As we've discussed here a number of times, rank does not always equate to skill!

Regards

Neil

hyaku
23rd February 2001, 00:58
Without a doubt one has to start again. I have attaining a fairly high level in Batto, Kendo, Iaido, Kobudo I have had to start again many times now. All sword related but all totally different in minute technicalities.

Although there are similarities, without doubt one has the problem of the techiniques of one art being done by mistake in other training however hard one tries.

I spent another painful evening of Hyoho Niten Ichiryu yesterday with Sensei bashing my arms legs with
a bokuto out of positions I have adopted as a menkyo of my Battoryu for many years. I putting me in positions I though only a contortionist could do

Withstanding this I still I still carry the respect of being called "sensei" by sensei. I may feel like you have started again at times. but the many years of training have their advantages.

When I started Batto I was also told that did I realize that my Iaido and Kendo rank meant nothing and that I would have to start again.

One should always swallow ones pride when one goes into the Dojo. Stop teaching and do the basics with the beginners etc

Hyakutake Colin

MarkF
23rd February 2001, 10:28
Even though I've never considered myself anything but a judo player, I've made the rounds (twice) in other, but similar MA, once for a year in a more literal version of judo (Kano jiu-jitsu) and koryu jujutsu.

This "rank" we speak about, I think is a misnomer. It does not, nor was it meant, to rank anyone, but rather grade a person on the amount of training and what knowledge is expected from that grade and from whom one should look to for guidance. It was intended for that dojo (read school, or ryu), and was never intended to be anything else. In fact, originally, it was simply that the founder, who always wore black hakama, was not of any rank in that art or way, but instead, he was beyond such things mundane. After the dogi, came the black belt which was to imply the difference in training levels, to reduce talk, and to get to the thing at hand.
****

While I think respect is a two way street, I've always worn a white belt in schools other than my own. I find when this happens, the teacher has more respect for what you do know, and the students don't notice. I suppose the only time it did somewhat embarrass me, was when I performed a throw not to the liking of this new teacher. He said "And you. You an ikkyu." It sounded more like he was spitting than speaking, but I was wearing a white belt.

But Neil is correct. It depends. Going to another dojo of the same kind doesn't require that you wear a BB, and usually, you will get something less than training.

Kito ryu was another story. There were no BB because that system of grading one's training wasn't used, but the teacher did know, and seemed to be extra kind when correcting me. Nice place. It closed.

Then what of seminars?

maney
23rd February 2001, 16:42
Hrmm.....

Everytime I visit another dojo (outside of the system I study), I always wear a white belt (if I am wearing a gi). I usually try to meet the instructor beforehand and let them know about my experience though. It's simply a matter of respect.

As for seminars, it really depends on the role that you are serving. If I am there as a student, I wear a white belt. If I was invited as an instructor, I wear my black belt.

fpsm

pgsmith
23rd February 2001, 18:22
My sensei always told us that we must keep a white belt in our bags. Whenever I go to a seminar or class in another art than our own, he insists that a white belt be worn. One of his favorite sayings is "it doesn't matter how many years a person may have been training, they are still a white belt in more arts than not".

Cheers,

Earl Hartman
23rd February 2001, 18:44
An interesting question, one I had never really thought of, since the answer is so obvious: no.

In Japan, at any rate, when one is starting out in a new art, one always starts at the bottom, regardless of one's attainment in an unrelated art. A rank in kyudo (archery) for instance, means diddly squat if you are starting out in kendo.

That being said, if the beginner in an art is of a sufficiently advanced age or is a well-known and well-respected teacher in another art, he/she may be accorded respect and deference within the dojo based on age, status, and accomplishment. In addition, various attitudes, understandings, and the general maturity attained through long budo practice will certainly prove valuable in learning the new art. If the arts are related, such as kendo and iaido, something learned in one (general body movement, how to swing a weapon, etc.) may aid in learning the other more quickly.

However, this is separate from the question of whether a rank earned in one art entitles a person to the same position and privilege in a new art. It doesn't.

glad2bhere
10th March 2001, 15:25
In my bag I carry both my black belt and my white belt. When I attend a seminar or class I line up at a level I know to be lower than my usual standing in a class. I have found that this practice allows the instructor or senior conducting the class to determine to me what position of responsibility he would like me to assume in the class.

As an instructor in my own classes part of my responsibility is sometimes to save a new student from themselves. I often do this by ignoring the rank the individual presents and by initially pairing that person with a student of known decent technique. By observing the new individuals breakfalls and timing I can usually then adjust partners so that the new person gets a challenging training experience without having to deal with a potentially embarrassing situation should he find himself over his head. Determining rank for individuals who are relaocting to one of my classes isn't done that much differently.
Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com

Den
11th March 2001, 19:04
A substantial issue in honoring rank between arts is the similarity or lack of, of the arts. Going from a empty hand art to a weapon-based art might be difficult, especially with kenjutsu.

I've studied Aikido for several years, and with it aiki-ken. When I began studying kenjutsu, in my case Shinkendo, I let my new Sensei know of my dan ranking in Aikido, but wore my white belt to class. I'm glad I did because if anything, my first few months are working to get rid of bad habits I developed in aiki-ken.

At the same time since my Sensei knows my Aikido ranking he pushes my training and doesn't hold back as he might with a beginning student. It's the best of both worlds for me as a student.
-Anthony

neb
20th March 2001, 05:02
i think in almost all cases the person switching schools should begin at white belt again, almost every art is vastly different from all others, so theres not much oint in assuming if someone is good at one style they will be equally competent at the other.
many dojos have different classes for different levels... if someone comes in whith a black belt in some other martial art it might be good to put him in a higher level class, then they might sufficiently challenged and not doing basic moves the whole time

Deus Fatali
20th March 2001, 05:16
Having cross trained in several different martial arts I must say that even if one has a high rank, it shouldn't mean a thing. When you join an art you are taking in all it has to offer, even if that means starting from scratch. Somewhere along the lines you may learn something that you never noticed before, or see something in a totally different light.
It is my belief that no matter how experienced I may be someone always knows more and is better than me, and there's a possibility that it's the white belt in the corner, he just hasn't realized it yet.
When ever I join a new style or art i inform the instructor of ranks I have held, but I also ask him to please treat me as he would any other beginner. Because in essence, aren't we all beginners?

GaryH
20th March 2001, 07:13
I've only been going to the Shinkendo dojo for a little while now, and I'm still just about the most inexperienced person in the class.

When you move on to another art, it might be similar, but are the differences permanent changes to how you do things? or are you still able to go back and perform the kata from the first art you trained in? I'm curious, as I have heard the many problems with students that come to study in Kenjutsu or Iaido from another school, like Kendo or vice versa have with dropping old "habits" of the past art... do you have to drop those "habits" permanently?

Thanks for your answers in advance.

--Gary Hill

BTW Deus Fatali, glad to see I'm not alone on the kenshin fan boat. =)

Tetsuo
20th March 2001, 09:25
I pretty much agree with the consensus around here that "NO", a martial artist's rank should not be honored despite how similar the arts are. However, there are exceptions to every rule. I say let the instructor decide whether you should keep your rank.

I trained for about 7 years in ISKF Shotokan Karate up in Juneau, Alaska. I came down to Orange County, CA for college at UC Irvine, only to find that the only ISKF affiliated dojo around this area is up in LA, an hour drive away.

I train in Iai-Tate Do in Anaheim under Kiyoshi Yamazaki Sensei. While I only did Iaido for the time being, Sensei Yamazaki began urging me to study Ryobukai Karate-Do. I politely told him that I already study karate under the ISKF organization and hold 3rd kyu. He surprised me by telling me that the arts are not that much different and that even though one should stay loyal to his dojo, training in another art and gaining new experiences would benefit me and help me appreciate and understand my own.

So, I currently train in their style of karate. While I am attending UCI, I train in Ryobukai Karate Do. However, I still went through the process of entering wearing a white belt, and informed the instructor of my brown belt status. He agreed to let me train as a white belt for a while, which was refreshing. It is so nice to train with only your own strict standards as your own limitations (Instructors don't expect much kihon from white belts). After a while, the instructor told me to wear my brown belt to class so I wouldn't intimidate and discourage the other beginners in class (why is a white belt doing advanced kata? etc.)

However, it is still difficult to keep the styles separate. Right now, I've been plagued with the decision to either crossover and start in Ryobukai or try and stick to what I remember of ISKF's style. It is still something I will have to talk to Yamazaki Sensei about. However, it was him who urged me to train and wear the rank I currently wear. I just have to keep reminding myself not to correct HIS beginning students TOO much because I am not of their style and it would be disrespectful.

Jesse Pelayo

"Better to be asked to come up and sit at a place of honor, than to be shamed by being asked to move and make room for someone more worthy."

glad2bhere
20th March 2001, 13:55
Dear Gary:

"...When you move on to another art, it might be similar, but are the differences permanent changes to how you do things? or are you still able to go back and perform the kata from the first art you trained in? I'm curious, as I have heard the many problems with students that come to study in Kenjutsu or Iaido from another school, like Kendo or vice versa have with dropping old "habits" of the past art... do you have to drop those "habits" permanently? ...."

I would LOVE the hear some responses to this one! As a Hapkido practitioner there are any numbers of schools, kwans, and arts which purport to practice Hapkido in conjunction with other arts. It is not at all uncommon to see TKD schools which "also" practice Hapkido --- and maybe Thai boxing and escrima as well. The typical response I get when I ask about this is "well, its ALL the same stuff, anyhow, right?" I suppose if I was too lazy to master a single art or didn't have the discipline to subscribe to a single agency until I had been graded as competent in a particular art, I too would rationalize in this manner. SO, now, I would like to hear how someone reconciles the biomechanics of TKD and Aikido, or Karate and Penjak Silat or even bouncing back and forth between two sword arts without winding up with two bad arts instead of a single good one. This should be pretty intersting.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com

Bjørn Olav
20th March 2001, 14:22
IMHO, one should always start from scratch when you start with a new art, and be judged solely from your performance in you new art. With this I mean you should start out with the lowest grade just like everybody else. But I see nothing wrong in moving from a white belt to shodan in just one grading if your performance can justify it.

I just moved from Bujinkan taijutsu to Katori Shinto Ruy, and I startet out with the complet newbies just like everybody else. But last friday I was told that I where welcome to join the advanced classes starting today, just after a couple of week with training.

I find that the most important thing when moving from one art to another is that you are often more focused than the other student's, and more used to move one's body in a determend way (straigth back, good balance). This means one will progress faster thanks to previus training.

Kind regards,
Bjørn Olav

Mance Thompson
20th March 2001, 15:30
I think this is one of those questions that depends on the situation. Last summer, I was studying capoeira at Dan Inosanto's academy and the mestre(sensei) was also teaching Guro Inosanto capoeira privately. Now considering the man's knowledge and experience, even though he was just starting capoeira, he was not the same as a beginner who had never done martial arts before. As long as the "teacher" and the "student" respect each other and one another's abilities in their own art(s), does it really matter what belt the "student" wears? Seems like everyone who posted here feels that they would start at the appropriate place, knowing that their past experience might enable them to grow in the new art at a faster pace. Perhaps those who miss this point and hold on to rank too tightly should be allowed to keep it, as that is what they are concentrating on and in the end, all they will be left with.

Glenn Scott
20th March 2001, 19:26
All-

This is an interesting thread with many great observations on etiquite, traditions, etc.

Although I share the same general consensus of this thread for my own opinion...the only opinion that truly matters, is that of the Sensei of the school you are visiting or changing your enrollment to.

Just the thoughts of a green kohei :)

Happy training!
glenn scott

FastEd
20th March 2001, 20:28
Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear Gary:
"...When you move on to another art, it might be similar, but are the differences permanent changes to how you do things? or are you still able to go back and perform the kata from the first art you trained in? I'm curious, as I have heard the many problems with students that come to study in Kenjutsu or Iaido from another school, like Kendo or vice versa have with dropping old "habits" of the past art... do you have to drop those "habits" permanently? ...."


If your involved with the Kendo Federation, your Kendo rank is not transferable to Iaido or Jodo (and vice versa). As to the "dropping old habits" were not talking about a "problem" just the normal effort needed to learn how things are done in a new art. Moving back and forth from Kendo to Iaido is simple (there easy to keep seperate) but many things are also in harmony, such as the grip, the mechanics of a proper cutting swing, the spacial awarness...etc. Actually I have more problems switching from Seitei to MJER then anything else.

Nathan Scott
21st March 2001, 00:18
Glad to see this being discussed!

I'm not surprised to see most people agreeing that a person ranked yudansha in one art should not have their rank honored in a *different* art (like Judo to Karate).

But what I had in mind mostly when I raised this question was situations in which a yudansha of one system or branch might be awarded yudansha in a *like* branch/art in recognition of their experience and rank.

For example, what about (hypothetically) a 5th dan Iwama Aikido stylist being awarded a 3rd dan in Yoshinkan, since they are both pre-war styles of the same base-art?

What about different Kyokushin Karate and Goju ryu Karate?

Or various sword styles - many koryu sword styles share Shinkage ryu as an influence and/or base art. Should menjo/menkyo be recognized in systems with similar origins?

As another example, what about a Budo-ka inheriting numerous koryu? Sometimes a ryu-ha may "give" their style to a well known Budo-ka in hopes that they may use their reputation and influence to continue their dwindling transmission line. If the person has not been trained and initiated into all aspects of the tradition, is this a reasonable responsibility and/or honor to claim as a credential or to advertise publicly?

Great comments so far - what do ya think about these examples?

(BTW, I keep a white belt in my dogu bag as well. I still wear it in at least one art I study! The most important things I've learned have been while wearing that belt!)

Regards,

Neil Yamamoto
21st March 2001, 00:46
To what Nathan asks, I think recognizing rank in similar arts is fine. But with some limitations.

With Nathan's example of a 5th in Yoshinkan being a 3rd in aikikai as practiced by a dojo affliated with the Iwama group, sure, that makes sense and recognizes the effort of the indivdual.

But as to their being able to teach that style and represent the school, no, that makes no sense.

I went to a friend's karate dojo years ago and am recognized as a sempai in the dojo. Why? Cause I smacked a few heads on the seniors in the dojo and impressed them.

That in no way makes me capable of doing what they do in that school. The same goes for similar arts. While you can do similar techniques, there is no way you can teach the details or pass on any of the traits that make the style an art.

I also practiced a little bit of Tomiki and they recognized my rank as a courtesy. I managed to more then hold my own against the black belts. I can understand the rationale of the art but am not capable of teacing any of it.

So, start over again and enjoy being a beginner again. If they recognize your rank as a courtesy, then remember it is only a courtesy and really gives you no privilages.

William Jackson
25th March 2001, 18:35
I have always felt that rank in one style has meaning only in that style; so of course, starting over in another means just that: starting over. It sounds like most of you agree with that.
Several posters did mention however, that even though you show up wearing a white belt, that you still talk to the instructor and detail your previous experience.
My question is, when visiting a traditional dojo, is it considered disrespectful, or in bad form, to NOT volunteer all the details of your previous training. Obviously, you should answer all polite inquiries when asked, but is it necessary when checking out a new art or instructor to say "I'm wearing a white belt, but I have ranking in...?"
Especially when the school you are visiting is totally different from your previous experience.

Thanks in advance.

MarkF
26th March 2001, 08:48
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
But what I had in mind mostly when I raised this question was situations in which a yudansha of one system or branch might be awarded yudansha in a *like* branch/art in recognition of their experience and rank.


I had thought of a very different situation when I read the above quote by Nathan, but I know what he means.

The situation I had in mind when I read the above paragraph was one of "paper recognition" between styles, such as, and this is only an example please, in the area of "blind ambition" when one highly graded practitioner, being "honored" with a belt, certificate, etc., which recognizes someone as godan, master, or other inapproriate recognitions by completely different stylists, say Nathan recognizing me as godan in shinkendo or any sword simply because he knows of my qualifications in Kodokan Judo, something I never, ever change since my dabblings in other MA never reached beyone one year. And even within judo, while you cannot hide knowledge or abilities, the fact that I may or may not wear a black belt still only recognizes me, at most, as an advanced student at another dojo, and defer to the senpai or others more familiar with the habits and formalities of that club.

I found this out the first time I traveled from my home in the LA area (The Valley) for those who know LA.:D , to New York City, and found the closest dojo to where I lived for a short time which had a Kodokan Club. They also seemed to be practicing in the same, large room (I mean big), some type of iai, and on another area of mats, shodokan (Tomiki) aikido which was kitty-corner to where we were doing judo (I must admit to being enthralled with the aikido, and also signed up for classes in that).

I had originally introduced myself to the dojocho and asked if I could teach a few classes in trade for training time, in judo only (I paid for the aikido).
******

Ok, I'm dragging my feet here, but I was only going to say that in both judo dojo (actually three, but that was to help a friend get a program going in Encino), we bowed standing, someone was called on to demonstrate a technique, and then we broke off into partners to work at that.

The NYC dojo did things a little differently. First, they bowed from seiza. Then, at the end of the class, again bowed from seiza with the senpai waiting for some kind of acknowledgement from me, so I nodded my head, and he said "sensei ni rei!"And they bowed almost kissing the tatami. I had never seen it as such, as in both dojo, other than when listening to announcements, a new grade to a student, and things of a similar nature did most of this standing, and it was so at most dojo of the Southern California Nanka yudanshakai.
******

My point is this, though, and with similar thoughts as Neil Y. has stated, it shouldn't matter a whit as to what you wear (as to a belt), you are the mudansha at another's dojo, be it the same or similar art practiced. I don't think Daito Ryu aiki dojo practice in the same manner of ways, IE, a roppokai student and a kodokai student, and the only time one should "help" a student, especially at a seminar or some kind of dojo visit, would be in the very basics of the technique, and only if the training differences are from each end of the spetrum. Even here, it should be limited to "lower your center" or such basics which are pretty similar at any dojo. In my case, I woule err to the side of noninvolvement. Even if I am wearing a black belt, if in anyone else's dojo, I am always a student, and never a senior one, at that.

So wear what you wish, but if you come to my dojo, you will be treated as a student if you are a visitor, or want to join, and if that, I would probably want a fairly easy contact to discuss your training level, even if only to satisfy myself that you can take ukemi without being hurt.
*****

So to comment (finally) on Nathan's statement, sure, go ahead and recognize a person in front of the class and say "so and so is sandan in goju ryu karate." After that, you return immediately to mudansha status, even if protecting myself from a far more talented fighter than myself. At my age and size, you take what you can get, and use it to your advantage. I have crosstrained with friends in differing schools of karate (many, many many years ago) and I have no problem with them taking it easy with me. I've left with a black eye, or bloody nose, but better these badges than a bill from the local ER at Joe's Place Hospital and Volunteer Fire Department, you know?

Mark