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newtmonkey
8th October 2010, 05:37
I searched a bit for Hakkoryu on this forum, but it doesn't seem there are many people practicing this style here.

Anyway, a quick introduction: I am currently living in Nagoya, Japan (since about 2.5 years ago). My martial arts history here:

03/2008 arrived in Japan, started taking Aikido
07/2008 moved and had to drop Aikido class, joined a Daitoryu (Roppokai) class (dropped shortly after, not a style I am interested in)
11/2008 joined Hakkoryu class
??/2009 found a Daitoryu (Saigo-ha) class, joined up
09/2010 due to work I had to drop the Daitoryu class
09/2010 joined Judo club

I really would have liked to continue with the Saigo-ha Daitoryu class, but my work schedule made it impossible (I have to work on Saturdays, which is the only day the class meets). So now I am studying Hakkoryu and Judo.

With that out of the way, there are a few things that worry me about Hakkoryu as I am learning it:

-advancement to shodan was extremely quick, a little under one year and a half. I was advanced even though I am not comfortable at all with a couple of the shodan technqiues against a resisting opponent

-my class is basically 99% wrist defense. I managed to get the official textbooks (which are not very good imo, with poor pictures and overly simple explanations), and there is not much in there besides wrist counters. I don't have the sandan book, so I can't say for certain if this is the case all the way to the end or not. I also have Dennis Palumbo's series of books, and he has these "walking exercises" in there, but we don't do that at all in my class and they are not including in the official books published by the hombu dojo.

Basically, I am losing interest fast in Hakkoryu and while I'd hate to throw away the 2 years or so I have spent on it, I also don't want to throw away the equivalent of $50 a month on something that is quickly losing its appeal.

The turning point for me was about a month or two ago when a guy walked in off the street for a trial class and I could not get one of the techniques to work on him. This is fine and usually I would just try some different approaches and see what mistake I am making (assuming it's a problem with me and not the technique), but I asked the teacher for some help and I could tell he was having trouble too (he basically ended up muscling his way through it). Then, instead of working with me on it he just suddenly looked over to me and said, "Oh, that's right! You need to work on your third degree techniques today, let's do that."

So that really demoralized me in two ways- first, as a shodan I should be able to pull these techniques off pretty well (especially against some guy off the street) so I feel my advancement was premature... second, when I get to a roadblock I want to overcome it, not retreat from it and do something else.

Now, I had plenty of times in other classes where I can't get a technique off and the teacher will give me some plausible explanation (your posture isn't correct, your grip is too weak, you're muscling your way through it, your center of balance is too high, etc) and usually we work through that and I learn something valuable.

So I dunno what I am asking for here. I would really appreciate any comments from Hakkoryu people. Failing that, if you were in my situation what would you do?

kmosk
8th October 2010, 18:57
Hi,

I saw your post and had to reply. I am not a hakkoryu practitioner. I assume you have been to this web site. http://www.hakkoryu.com/ .

From my experiences in the New York tri state area I can say a lot of people from the 1960's and 70's say they practiced Hokkaryu. I do believe that is what they were told. I do not believe they were taught traditional Hokkaryu. (I am not commenting on Mr. Palumbo.)

My Aki jujutsu teachers did a demonstation at a local college. Some of the people asked questions after and requested to "try it out". They resisted which shook up some lower ranks. My teacher however took control and showed the person who was resisting the reason we go with the technique. He hurt the guy a little phsically and a lot morally. If you do not cooperate as you know your joints can snap easily.

I would not throw away your practice of two years. Some arts will take a long time to translate into street applicable technique. Sho dan in many cases only means you can perform the technique in a perfect situation (People cooperating). It takes many years of constant daily practice and testing for you to be able to be proficient at the techniques in a real situation. Two years is a short time. (high school is 4yrs, Bachelors degree 4yrs. Masters 2 0r three yrs. Phd??)

Kevin Moskie

yoj
8th October 2010, 21:47
You have a pm.

newtmonkey
9th October 2010, 01:19
Hi,

I saw your post and had to reply. I am not a hakkoryu practitioner. I assume you have been to this web site. http://www.hakkoryu.com/ .

From my experiences in the New York tri state area I can say a lot of people from the 1960's and 70's say they practiced Hokkaryu. I do believe that is what they were told. I do not believe they were taught traditional Hokkaryu. (I am not commenting on Mr. Palumbo.)

My Aki jujutsu teachers did a demonstation at a local college. Some of the people asked questions after and requested to "try it out". They resisted which shook up some lower ranks. My teacher however took control and showed the person who was resisting the reason we go with the technique. He hurt the guy a little phsically and a lot morally. If you do not cooperate as you know your joints can snap easily.

I would not throw away your practice of two years. Some arts will take a long time to translate into street applicable technique. Sho dan in many cases only means you can perform the technique in a perfect situation (People cooperating). It takes many years of constant daily practice and testing for you to be able to be proficient at the techniques in a real situation. Two years is a short time. (high school is 4yrs, Bachelors degree 4yrs. Masters 2 0r three yrs. Phd??)

Kevin Moskie
Hello Kevin, thank you for the reply!

I think the thing that was bothering me most was that when the guy off the street showed resistance, the teacher fumbled a bit and then muscled his way through the technique. At that point the guy he was performing the technique on just sort of went with it. And then instead of explaining to me what I did wrong, the teacher awkwardly changed the subject and had us all switch partners.

I know what you are saying with your Aikijujutsu experience. I was taking Daitoryu a while back and it was just like you said- lower belts (me included) had a lot of trouble when the partner was resisting but then the teacher or a senior student would step in and show everyone what resisting accomplishes (nothing). In fact, one reason I really enjoyed that class was because the teacher would often ask me to attempt to get out of holds/throws etc using techniques I learned in Judo/BJJ back in the US. Sometimes I could escape with no problem, and then we'd all try to figure out what went wrong or how to modify the technique to retain control. It was really an amazing class and I really wish I didn't have to give it up for work.

I also understand what you are saying about shodan. Most schools I have gone to here have the same way of thinking about it: black belt just means you are an official student with some responsibilities (including helping out the kyu rank students).

Anyway, you have given me some food for thought. I am kind of in a tough spot here though because I want to "test" Hakkoryu by resisting as much as I can, but I picked up pretty quickly that in this class you sort of just go with it. I consider myself a guest in this country, and I don't want to go around busting dojos or anything, but I think if I am going to keep attending this class the only way I can do it is if I really test the system by resisting 100%, which would put me in a pretty awkward position (if it works, the teacher looks bad, if it doesn't I look bad for imposing).

dengle
9th October 2010, 05:12
As a teacher, I would hope that a student of mine with the same thoughts would come to me. A lot of times people drop out over a misunderstanding.

At Shodan, you are just a beginner and perhaps you are expecting too much. Discuss these concerns with your teacher.

My experience with Hakko Ryu is that it is not a "fighting art".If you wanted to "learn how to fight" faster, maybe this is not the school for you. Talk to your teacher about the objective of the training.

Here in the U.S., I think some of the earlier teachers began teaching too soon. Hakko Ryu was widely combined with Karate and other arts to make it more combative. My only "certification" in the art is an honorary Shihan from one of the European schools, but I have been around Hakko Ryu in the U.S. for 20 years now. I also have training in Daito Ryu. Technically, they are closely related. The philosophy and training methods differ.

You need to decide what you want to accomplish by training and find a school where that can be accomplished. You also will not find a Daito Ryu teacher who is going to give you a crash course in fighting. You may need to find a more modern style if that is what you want. If you stay with older, more traditional schools (especially koryu like Daito Ryu), your training will be spread out over many years.

allyismycopilot
11th October 2010, 21:57
This is a very interesting topic and I can completely understand where you are coming from. Out of curiosity, how long has your teacher been practicing Hakko-Ryu? It may be a situation where he hasn't perfected certain techniques himself.

You also have to keep in mind that the ability to resist a technique should be expected. What works on one person very well may not work on another well at all. In that case you just transition to a different technique.

I practice Dentokan Jujutsu which is a derivative of Hakko-Ryu (99% identical as Hobbs-Sensei was a Shihan under Okuyama and then received menkyo kaiden from Irie-Sensei) and my teacher (Andy Bryant-Sensei) seems to welcome resistance as it allows him the opportunity to practice transitions. It's amazing how quickly resisting during Ude Osae Dori results in the very uncomfortable transition to Sandan Mochi Mawari.

= Richard Stevens =

newtmonkey
12th October 2010, 03:34
As a teacher, I would hope that a student of mine with the same thoughts would come to me. A lot of times people drop out over a misunderstanding.

At Shodan, you are just a beginner and perhaps you are expecting too much. Discuss these concerns with your teacher.

My experience with Hakko Ryu is that it is not a "fighting art".If you wanted to "learn how to fight" faster, maybe this is not the school for you. Talk to your teacher about the objective of the training.

Here in the U.S., I think some of the earlier teachers began teaching too soon. Hakko Ryu was widely combined with Karate and other arts to make it more combative. My only "certification" in the art is an honorary Shihan from one of the European schools, but I have been around Hakko Ryu in the U.S. for 20 years now. I also have training in Daito Ryu. Technically, they are closely related. The philosophy and training methods differ.

You need to decide what you want to accomplish by training and find a school where that can be accomplished. You also will not find a Daito Ryu teacher who is going to give you a crash course in fighting. You may need to find a more modern style if that is what you want. If you stay with older, more traditional schools (especially koryu like Daito Ryu), your training will be spread out over many years.

Hello, thank you for the reply!

I definitely need to talk to my teacher, you are right. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do it.

As for my reason for learning Hakkoryu, it is not as a means to learn how to fight (I have BJJ and Judo for that, and a striking martial art background from back in the US), but instead as a means to learn the common source arts like BJJ and Judo and Aikido all came from. Since Hakkoryu is influenced by Daitoryu (I understand the founder of Hakkoryu studied primarily Daitoryu), I thought Hakkoryu would be a good way to practice this. Also, I wanted to study a martial art that is rare to find in the US (I can easily find Judo or BJJ schools back home, but Hakkoryu and Daitoryu were not available where I was living.

As I mentioned before I had been learning Daitoryu for about 1.5 years or so here and really enjoyed that class, the way it was taught really clicked with me. The teacher was also into kickboxing/kakutougi and while I wouldn't go so far as to say that he taught a "crash course" in fighting, he was very strict about getting techniques to work on resisting opponents. He would show us a technique and immediately after would ask "can you guys think of any way you could get out of this?" and we'd work on that for a while. I liked this sort of training, where we would learn a technique and apply some variations to it on the spot (what if the guy kicks instead of punches? what if he grabs your neck while you are trying to throw him? etc). I liked that immediately after applying a technique he (and the senior students) would immediately say something like, "come on, you could have got out of that. Let's try again."

Unfortunately we don't do any of that in the Hakkoryu class. We are just running through a list of techniques, then moving on to the next guy, etc until the 1.5 hours is up. So yeah I am getting frustrated and a little bored honestly. There is really no teaching going on. I know this is the traditional Japanese way of teaching people things- tell/show them what to do with no explanation and then just let them repeat a thousand times until they get it- but I feel like I am just spinning my wheels. I really would like the class to be a little more interactive, I'd like the teacher to get up there and go "okay, today's technique is 'shodan ude osaedori' and here are a few situations where you might use it and here are some variations if you get some resistance and can't make it work" but I don't think I am gonna be the one to make that change, so I really need to talk to the teacher but can't think of a way to suggest this without it sounding like, "i don't like the way you teach, you should teach like this."

I don't mind the long-haul approach of Japanese martial arts (my complaint is actually that I feel I was advanced way too soon!). I plan on staying here for quite a long time, so I am patient and since I am doing this as a hobby and not as a way to learn how to fight (Japan is still pretty safe after all...), I view it like any other hobby: if I am enjoying it, I plan to do it until I can't do it anymore. But it is definitely important that I enjoy it and as it is I'm not sure I can see myself doing this 5 or 10 years down the line.


This is a very interesting topic and I can completely understand where you are coming from. Out of curiosity, how long has your teacher been practicing Hakko-Ryu? It may be a situation where he hasn't perfected certain techniques himself.

You also have to keep in mind that the ability to resist a technique should be expected. What works on one person very well may not work on another well at all. In that case you just transition to a different technique.

I practice Dentokan Jujutsu which is a derivative of Hakko-Ryu (99% identical as Hobbs-Sensei was a Shihan under Okuyama and then received menkyo kaiden from Irie-Sensei) and my teacher (Andy Bryant-Sensei) seems to welcome resistance as it allows him the opportunity to practice transitions. It's amazing how quickly resisting during Ude Osae Dori results in the very uncomfortable transition to Sandan Mochi Mawari.

= Richard Stevens =

Hi Richard, thanks for the reply. My teacher is quite young, I don't think he has been practicing Hakkoryu for a very long time. The class I am taking started up only 2 years ago (I was one of the first students), though he has another class he has been teaching for longer at another location. He has full menkyo kaiden, though with Hakkoryu that doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of number of years put in (compared with something like Daitoryu for instance).

I welcome people resisting, that's really what I want! One thing I love about Judo and BJJ is that there is constant resistance, you know immediately if your technique is off. As I mentioned above, in the Daitoryu class I was taking we were always attempting to resist or counter or whatever. The big problem I had recently with this Hakkoryu class is that I had a situation where I couldn't pull off a technique, I asked the teacher for help, he had similar trouble, muscled through it, and then immediately had us all switch partners (to avoid embarrassing me? who knows?). I wanted to continue working through the problem (or failing that, advice from the teacher) but I suspect it didn't look good to have a shodan student unable to pull off a technique on a guy off the street and so he just ended it there. To be fair though, I don't know what he was thinking so I can't say for sure what his reason was.

I would love to be able to train in using variations, switching between techniques, but we aren't taught that stuff. We are supposed to just run through the techniques in order, as listed in the official syllabus. I am going to try to talk to the teacher hopefully after class tonight, and see if we can't introduce a more interactive means of teaching. Just need to think of a good way to put it without insulting him (maybe impossible).

allyismycopilot
12th October 2010, 14:26
From what I've gathered instruction in Hakko-Ryu in Japan is very strict, which is good for learning the syllabus very quickly, but I think it comes at a loss of freedom to experiment and to learn what works for you. Also, I'm assuming (I may be way off), but you may not have yet had the opportunity to learn the shihan or kaiden versions of the various techniques which can make a WORLD of difference.

I know for me personally the standard version of Ude Osae Dori doesn't work well. There are others that I train with who aren't as technically proficient yet, but can imbue a great deal more pain than I can with the standard version. However, having been shown the variations I can ignore the standard method and go with the one that works best for me (and my dainty wrists).

Again, I am not well versed in the methods of traditional Hakko-Ryu training in Japan, but in the Dentokan branch we are regularly shown how to modify the basic techniques for different types of resistance (think pushing or trying to pull an arm away) or what would be good to transition into.

Just out of curiosity, what technique was giving you an issue?

yoj
12th October 2010, 21:42
One of the main points of the kata are to teach principles, you don't learn them unless you are getting some resistance, that doesn't mean locking up, but providing a reasonable posture to work against. As you improve you should be looking at applying kata against someone who really knows how to protect their centre, their posture, and be breaking theirs. It's usually about here that you start to realise the point of the metsubishi again, because unless that has some effect on their posture, you will be unlikely to create the opening for the initial posture take, from which the rest of the techinique progresses.

Once you understand which arm goes where, you should be looking at how to get it right to break the opponents posture. Hakko dori is the most important, because shoulder control, and knowing what it feels like when they no longer have it in place and it's floating, effects a lot of other techniques.

newtmonkey
13th October 2010, 02:40
From what I've gathered instruction in Hakko-Ryu in Japan is very strict, which is good for learning the syllabus very quickly, but I think it comes at a loss of freedom to experiment and to learn what works for you. Also, I'm assuming (I may be way off), but you may not have yet had the opportunity to learn the shihan or kaiden versions of the various techniques which can make a WORLD of difference.

I know for me personally the standard version of Ude Osae Dori doesn't work well. There are others that I train with who aren't as technically proficient yet, but can imbue a great deal more pain than I can with the standard version. However, having been shown the variations I can ignore the standard method and go with the one that works best for me (and my dainty wrists).

Again, I am not well versed in the methods of traditional Hakko-Ryu training in Japan, but in the Dentokan branch we are regularly shown how to modify the basic techniques for different types of resistance (think pushing or trying to pull an arm away) or what would be good to transition into.

Just out of curiosity, what technique was giving you an issue?

Thanks for the reply! I am taking everyone's input into account and preparing beforehand what I would like to discuss with the teacher. From what another member of E-Budo has told me, we are learning Hakkoryu the way it is taught at the honbu (bow in, choose a partner, run through the techniques for whatever level you are currently studying, move on to the next partner), which I am really not suited towards. You do learn all the techniques quickly this way (that is, the form), but with the way I learn I prefer to work on a single technique, working on multiple variations. I guess I need to ask the teacher what he expects, if he'd be open to me just working with a junior student in a slightly more interactive way (asking partner to resist in different ways, setting up the technique differently, etc).

I have not learned any of the shihan/kaiden versions. I have learned up to sandan (again, that is, the forms), though most of my time at class is spent going over shodan techniques with junior students. I don't mind this at all, but like I said I feel like I am just spinning my wheels when we just work through the syllabus as is and am also worried that I am passing on any mistakes/bad habits.

Another E-Budo member helped me out with some great advice via private message, but the technique I was having most trouble with was aikinage (sitting). When I went in to throw, my partner pushed down hard on my hand, trapping me to the floor, most likely because I hadn't broken his balance enough with the pulling motion of the other hand, so he had sufficient leverage to counter.

newtmonkey
13th October 2010, 02:51
One of the main points of the kata are to teach principles, you don't learn them unless you are getting some resistance, that doesn't mean locking up, but providing a reasonable posture to work against. As you improve you should be looking at applying kata against someone who really knows how to protect their centre, their posture, and be breaking theirs. It's usually about here that you start to realise the point of the metsubishi again, because unless that has some effect on their posture, you will be unlikely to create the opening for the initial posture take, from which the rest of the techinique progresses.

Once you understand which arm goes where, you should be looking at how to get it right to break the opponents posture. Hakko dori is the most important, because shoulder control, and knowing what it feels like when they no longer have it in place and it's floating, effects a lot of other techniques.

Thank you for the reply!

I would welcome more resistance in class! I understand what you are saying 100% and agree. If there is no resistance I feel like I am wasting my time (though low/no resistance at first is fine for learning the very basics, like which hand goes where, how to move your body, etc).

I would say that our of all the students in the class (at this point, 10) only two students show any resistance at all, and both of them are new guys that just joined a short while ago. I resist against the other shodan students, but against the beginners I was told to just go with the throw so they can learn the basic movement of the technique without getting frustrated (I don't have a problem with this way of thinking as long as resistance is applied once the technique is "learnt").

Thank you for the comment about hakkodori, I will pay more attention to this!

newtmonkey
18th October 2010, 03:12
Hey guys, final (for now) update on this. I took a week or so off from class, took a mini vacation over the weekend and brought some of my hakkoryu materials with me (the nidan textbook published by the honbu dojo, Palumbo's nidan book, and a bunch of technique videos I downloaded from a Dentokan webpage one member here provided over private message.

I decided that I really want to continue with hakkoryu, but that I will be asking my partners to resist, especially if I sense they are throwing themselves for me. I'm also going to start applying a little more resistance to my partners, based on their level, etc.

I am also going to see if I can spend a little more time on techniques I am having trouble with, rather than just running through all the techniques in order one after another regardless of outcome.

When we split off into groups of two to practice, usually the less senior person will ask what to practice, and the person with more seniority will typically say "let's work on the shodan techniques, from the beginning." Instead I'm going to ask "what techniques are you having trouble with/questions about" and take it from there.

Reading all your comments really helped me decide what to do, and so I want to thank everyone. When I posted that first message I had pretty much decided to quit the class and even though hakkoryu is not a koryu art, I think it is still worth learning while I am here.

Thanks!

newtmonkey
25th October 2010, 04:22
Quick update-

We hold an extra class once or twice a month on Saturdays from 6p-9p. Because of my work schedule it's impossible to be there for 6p, but the teacher told me it would be okay to come at any time, so last Saturday I was able to attend for the last hour.

I started out by running through the nidan sitting techniques with my teacher. We went through them in order, which I don't mind since I haven't yet got the movements committed to memory.

After that we all switched partners and I ended up with a junior student who just got his shodan recently. I figured I'd apply a little more resistance than I usually do and see how he reacts. It worked out really well! Since I took the lead, he also applied more resistance than usual, though it didn't become any kind of wrestling match or anything. No egos, just two guys trying to polish their technique.

We started by going through the standing nidan techniques but rather than just blow through them one by one like we usually do, I thought I would try spending some extra time on techniques, trying different methods, applying a little more resistance, etc. I had particular trouble with makikomi and we spent quite a bit of time on that one. Still haven't gotten it, but I learned some things not to do which is just as good. My partner had trouble with shutojime, so we spent a lot of time on that and I think I helped him out a bit (shutojime is very similar to aikisage, which is a technique we practiced along with aikiage every class for a good 10+ minutes back when I was taking Daitoryuaikijujutsu, so I had that experience to draw from in applying shutojime).

Anyway, it was a great experience and I really enjoyed working with a single partner, trying to get techniques to work in different scenarios, etc. I'd love to do some more Aikido style randori (over the past two years or so we've only done randori a couple times), but there's not much I can do about that for now.

budo_oyaji
9th November 2010, 01:43
Hi Newtmonkey,

I also live in Nagoya. I`m currently training in Kyokushin Karate. I have a background in Aikido, so have always been interested in Daito-ryu as well. Was wondering if you could expand on this comment you made:

"07/2008 moved and had to drop Aikido class, joined a Daitoryu (Roppokai) class (dropped shortly after, not a style I am interested in)"

I was considering tryining to fit in some Daito-ryu perhaps once a week sometime in the future. Just wanted your insigt into why you didn`t like that particular dojo. PM me if you feel more comfortable discussing this outside the thread.

Thanks,

Shawn

newtmonkey
13th November 2010, 14:46
Shawn, thanks for the reply! I sent you a PM!