BSKF.org is down [Archive]

PeterL

26th October 2010, 03:07

Rob

This was the website of Mizuno's breakaway organisation

They broke away but took the name with them, as they decided to leave WSKO they could have had the decency to leave the name 'BSKF' with those of use who prefer to stay within WSKO

Hi Steve

This issue has pretty much been beaten to death. I am not sure what the legal situation is regarding the use of BSKF is, and people from "sides" (I hate to use that term) have posted about it in the long running thread about the topic.

Since the people using the name BSKF believe that they have a right to do so (I do not know if that is true - or if it will go to court or not. etc etc) , I do not think that they were acting "indecently". I think that from their perspective they were using the name that they helped to build and had the right to use. While I may not agree with their perspective, I do not believe that they have a "lack of decency".

I think the split was a sad thing for SK in the UK, but I believe that for the most part, posters here tried to act decently in spite of strong disagreement.

Cheers

Peter

Rob Gassin

26th October 2010, 08:29

Rob

This was the website of Mizuno's breakaway organisation

They broke away but took the name with them, as they decided to leave WSKO they could have had the decency to leave the

Steven,

I agree with PeterL. However, I am interested to get your view as to why you consider that the name 'BSKF' should have been left to those who preferred to stay within WSKO?

Cheers,

Steve Williams

26th October 2010, 14:07

I think that the issue is that the name "Shorinji Kempo" is not generic like karate or judo and is registered for use by those who are affiliated to WSKO or affiliated to Shorinji Kempo hombu if inside japan.

Those who left WSKO, by default, gave up their right to use the Shorinji Kempo name.

I do not wish them ill and the website was professionally done, but they do not (in my opinion) have any right to use the name.

Rob Gassin

26th October 2010, 21:33

Hi Steve and Steven,

I am in the enviable position of being several 1000kms from the British fracas and therefore am not that emotionally involved.

I must say that i have a real issue with the notion that the name 'Shorinji Kempo' is less generic than 'karate' or 'judo'. My understanding is that WSKO itself recognised this when they registered the name 'Shorinjikempo'.

I think it is reasonnable to claim that ShorinjiKempo is Doshin So's original style of Shorinji Kempo. Stopping people who have practiced Shorinji Kempo to a high level, using the nam for their derivative style seems petty to me. Then again, I'm not a legal expert.

By the way is the BSKF website down because of legal issues relating to the term Shorinji Kempo?

Indar

27th October 2010, 05:55

I think it is reasonnable to claim that ShorinjiKempo is Doshin So's original style of Shorinji Kempo. Stopping people who have practiced Shorinji Kempo to a high level, using the nam for their derivative style seems petty to me. Then again, I'm not a legal expert.

I'm not a legal expert either, but perhaps an analogy would be a person who had worked for Coca-Cola (registered trade mark :() for 40 years, who then left the company taking the "secret" recipe and started selling another cola drink, but also calling it Coca Cola.

The drinks might taste similar, but I'm reasonably sure that the original would be protected by law.

John Ryan

27th October 2010, 07:23

PeterL

27th October 2010, 07:35

I'm not a legal expert either, but perhaps an analogy would be a person who had worked for Coca-Cola (registered trade mark :() for 40 years, who then left the company taking the "secret" recipe and started selling another cola drink, but also calling it Coca Cola.

The drinks might taste similar, but I'm reasonably sure that the original would be protected by law.

I think that this is not a very good analogy since we are not talking about a formula for making pop. I am sure there are many factors at play (such as perhaps when SK was even trademarked - after the BSFK was set up I believe). If I were to use your comparison - to play devil's advocate- I would say it sounds like some one set up a company similar to Coca-Cola and kept part of the name.... Oooops- would that be Pepsi-Cola??

Now that I have had my fun, I will say that in my own personal view I would have preferred that BSKF did not use the SK in its name. However, I do not think they did so because they were lacking in decency, but because they felt that they had a legitimate right to do so. I do not know if they do have the right to do so.

If you feel/know that they do not, I think it would be useful to either state why, in a factual way.

cheers

Peter

PS, Rob - perhaps like you, one of my first thoughts when the BSKF site was down was that there was some legal action from WSKO or other "SK" organization.

Indar

27th October 2010, 08:04

Difference being that the purpose of the Coca Cola company is to make money for its shareholders; the purpose of Shorinji Kempo is to create an ideal world, regardless of who takes the credit for it.

good point...........so how do you create an ideal world by leaving a global organisation and thereby breaking your links with other people throughout the world who share those ideals?

If I were to use your comparison - to play devil's advocate- I would say it sounds like some one set up a company similar to Coca-Cola and kept part of the name.... Oooops- would that be Pepsi-Cola??

Another good point..........

How about The British Democratic Kempo Federation? :p

David Dunn

27th October 2010, 08:48

If you feel/know that they do not, I think it would be useful to either state why, in a factual way.

Peter, being familiar with trademark law would give you some idea.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-about/t-whatis.htm

In particular, trademarks are not registrable if they describe the goods or services or any characteristics of them. The name of an activity is not protectable as by a trademark. Think "Manchester United Football Club" and "football". I'll leave it to your own judgement whether "Shorinji kempo" describes the quality, purpose or value of the goods and services offered.

Indar

27th October 2010, 08:58

In particular, trademarks are not registrable if they describe the goods or services or any characteristics of them. The name of an activity is not protectable as by a trademark.

SHORINJI KEMPO is a registered Service Mark with the US Patent and Trade Mark Office; registration number 1452552, serial number 73448050. The KEN symbol is also registered; registeration number 1529652, serial number 73670970. The use of the name and symbol are protected under the law, and restricted.

http://www.sfshorinjikempo.com/

(yes, I know that we are in Europe; but did you ever hear of "extraordinary rendition"? ;))

John Ryan

27th October 2010, 09:22

good point...........so how do you create an ideal world by leaving a global organisation and thereby breaking your links with other people throughout the world who share those ideals?

I'm not a spokesman for any organisation, but I'll suggest an answer obliquely: Kaiso said "the person, the person, the person...", not "the organisation, the organisation, the organisation..." I think he noted in his lifetime that adherence to any particular organisation was inferior to adherence to one's personal morals. I don't think the idea of blind faith towards an organisation formed part of Kaiso's vision of the future, the vision with which we allegedly concur when we talk about striving towards an ideal world through the practice and teaching of Shorinji Kempo.

Indar

27th October 2010, 09:47

I think he noted in his lifetime that adherence to any particular organisation was inferior to adherence to one's personal morals.

I agree. But I don't think that this means that we don't need organisations; or organisation.

Given that after 35 years the BSKF is still an unincorporated association ;), the likelihood of this happening is probably unlikely.

It's interesting to note that the organisation previously known as the BSKF is now two groups; one is part of WSKO and one isn't. It's also interesting that the group that remains within WSKO is made up of people who contributed a lot of time, energy, and hard work to try and build an organisation, whereas the other group appears to be comprised of people who are more individually minded; nothing wrong with that, but if you talk to your contacts in the "BSKF" you might find that the ideals of "equality" are simply fantasy.

Steve Malton

30th October 2010, 09:47

SHORINJI KEMPO is a registered Service Mark with the US Patent and Trade Mark Office; registration number 1452552, serial number 73448050. The KEN symbol is also registered; registeration number 1529652, serial number 73670970. The use of the name and symbol are protected under the law, and restricted.

I think the bit the lawyers will argue about (and profit from) is:
UK-IPO (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=1353715)

Restrictions on exclusive use:
The transliteration of the Japanese characters appearing in the mark is "Shorinji kempo" which denotes the applicant's own school of philosophy and martial arts and has no general meaning in ordinary language.
Is the meaning "Shaolin temple boxing" general enough to invalidate the mark? I don't know...

dirk.bruere

30th October 2010, 09:57

Is the meaning "Shaolin temple boxing" general enough to invalidate the mark? I don't know...
At worst it would have to be changed to something similar.
For example:

Shorin-ji Kempo
Shorinji Kenpo
Shorin Ji Kempo
etc

The Kanji characters themselves cannot be copyrighted since at least one other organization in the UK uses them, and has done so for years.

Indar

30th October 2010, 11:47

Peter, being familiar with trademark law would give you some idea.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-about/t-whatis.htm

In particular, trademarks are not registrable if they describe the goods or services or any characteristics of them.

Class 35:
Business management services all relating to sports establishments; promotional services all relating to massage therapy, finger pressure therapy and religious and philosophical training and instruction; all included in Class 35.

UK-IPO (http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=1353715)

So, is the organisation currently calling itself the "British Shorinji Kempo Federation" in breach of copyright? (and therefore breaking the law?), and is this why the bskf.org website is not available?

IP crime is the counterfeiting and piracy of trade marked and copyrighted products and services.

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/crime.htm

Anders Pettersson

11th November 2010, 11:13

At worst it would have to be changed to something similar.
For example:

Shorin-ji Kempo
Shorinji Kenpo
Shorin Ji Kempo
etc

That isn't enough difference, it would be like use "Coka-Kola".

The Kanji characters themselves cannot be copyrighted since at least one other organization in the UK uses them, and has done so for years.
Well since the kanji is included in the sample from the IPO I understand that as they also are registered.

BTW, what organisation in the UK uses them? Link please.

/Anders

dirk.bruere

12th November 2010, 23:37

That isn't enough difference, it would be like use "Coka-Kola".

Well since the kanji is included in the sample from the IPO I understand that as they also are registered.

BTW, what organisation in the UK uses them? Link please.

/Anders

I got the info from Tony Kehoe who was travelling with Sensei Mizuno when the latter was surprised to see the Kanji on a building. Belonged to some Gung Fu org I believe. If you are really intereested you could ask Tony - but since he is banned from this forum you will have to do it email.

BTW, trademark law (at least here) means that you cannot trademark a description. And "Shaolin Temple Boxing" converted to Kanji is just that. I suspect the trademark is invalid. Whether anyone will challenge it is another matter.

Steve Williams

13th November 2010, 22:48

I got the info from Tony Kehoe who was travelling with Sensei Mizuno when the latter was surprised to see the Kanji on a building. Belonged to some Gung Fu org I believe. If you are really intereested you could ask Tony - but since he is banned from this forum you will have to do it email.
Actually no, he was banned for a short while which has long since expired.
I suppose he just chooses not to post here at the present time.

BTW, trademark law (at least here) means that you cannot trademark a description. And "Shaolin Temple Boxing" converted to Kanji is just that. I suspect the trademark is invalid. Whether anyone will challenge it is another matter.
Actually no again.
I just did a little search using "Probably the best" was actually looking for the Carlsberg beer one but I found was for Carneys restaurant in the US (UK patent office site search is down until tomorrow so cannot check that one).
So you can copywrite a phrase or description I guess.........

Steve Williams

14th November 2010, 16:41

Actually no, he was banned for a short while which has long since expired.
I suppose he just chooses not to post here at the present time........

OK, apologies I misread that, for some reason I thought you were referring to Tony Leith, who was banned for a short time but is now not.
You are correct that Tony Kehoe is banned (by the owners not by the mods of this particular forum) permanently.

Steve Malton

14th November 2010, 18:51

Actually no again.
I just did a little search using "Probably the best" was actually looking for the Carlsberg beer one but I found was for Carneys restaurant in the US (UK patent office site search is down until tomorrow so cannot check that one).
So you can copywrite a phrase or description I guess.........
"Probably the best..." isn't a description of the product. It's a catchphrase or slogan, which is fine to trademark. A description of Carlsberg would be "beer" or "lager". This would not be trademarkable.

Rob Gassin

16th November 2010, 07:34

Why has the BSKF website been down for so long, does anyone know?

danbo

16th November 2010, 15:25

As a former kenshi who now lives abroad but checks in once in a while I find all of this very sad. Still the Buddha did apparently say that life is change and nothing is permanent.....

Anyway Mizuno Sensei always struck me as being on the level so without knowing what went on I'll be giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Peace and love y'all :-)

dirk.bruere

16th November 2010, 15:31

One of the points I was trying to make about trademarking "Shaolin Temple Boxing" in Kanji is that I believe that if anyone else has used it before the trademark was issued, that trademark is invalid. Given that, I strongly suspect it would be invalid in China and may be so in the UK if that Gung Fu org that used the Kanji was using it before the trademark was approved here.

dirk.bruere

17th November 2010, 23:18

One comment someone emailed me: that "Shorinji Kempo" in both English and Kanji was in use by BSKF long before WSKO applied for a trademark.

Steve Williams

17th November 2010, 23:41

One comment someone emailed me: that "Shorinji Kempo" in both English and Kanji was in use by BSKF long before WSKO applied for a trademark.

It was also in use by WSKO and Hombu long before WSKO applied for a trademark. Probably even before the BSKF existed?
Why is that relevant?
If they [BSKF] didn't apply for any trademark then what does it matter if they used it pre-trademark?

dirk.bruere

17th November 2010, 23:56

It was also in use by WSKO and Hombu long before WSKO applied for a trademark. Probably even before the BSKF existed?
Why is that relevant?
If they [BSKF] didn't apply for any trademark then what does it matter if they used it pre-trademark?
It may well be grounds for either voiding the trademark in the UK, or alternatively giving BSKF continued access to it.

PETER JEAVONS

15th January 2011, 23:58

As the guy who typed the original constitution for the BSKA, as it was originally formed with Sensei Mizuno, with two-finger typing over a few weeks, before the BSKF, and as I believe, the first, 1st Dan instructor in the uk under Sensei Mizuno, training under him with his limited use of the English language, I have to say that reading all these comments bring huge dismay to my heart.
Sensei Mizuno developed a huge indoctrination for me, using the Japanese ethics. He helped me learn the Japanese language and the alphabet as I was hoping to go to SK hq. He introduced me to various Japanese instructors and, especially I made friends with future Senseis' Russell and Peter at Bournemouth YMCA.
I remember in those days, having fought for the recognition of Shorinji Kempo on the Martial Arts Commision of the day and representing SK on the board, that we joked about the politics of Karate et al and, what a great institution we had as a new group.
Unfortunately, I had a car accident that wrecked my spine and all the training and the philosophy went down the drain.
At 60 years old, I now look back with tears in my eyes at what has happened and the posts on this thread. - The politics have now reached Shorinji Kempo.
Sensei Mizuno was a great man and, despite my life now, I still have the ethics and morals that I had instilled in me by him. My body is broken compared to then but the spirit will never die and, the body is still capable of looking after itself.
I remember organising the first training sessions at Littlehampton, the accomodation for everyone. The punch in the stomach I received from Sensei Mizuno when,a hotelier supplied refreshments for everyone during training and he was the last to get there and had no drink left. Yeah, I learnt true respect from Sensei Mizuno !
I also remember the visit to Bournemouth when Russell and Peter and a few of us Surrey guys spent the evening creating the British Shorinji Kempo Association and that's how it all started.
So, with that history behind me, I have to say that, I'm ashamed at the treatment Sensei Mizuno has received from the WSKO. I had to point out to him that the original Kanji sign, (the reversed Swastika) wasn't the greatest badge to have in Britain and that was changed due to his work with the WSKO. All I can say about him is, he always worked with their interests at heart.
At the end of the day, with all the debates I have read, all I can say is shame on those who don't support him, shame on the WSKO for what they have done to him, they are feudalistic in their values, get with the real World and respect other Nations' ways, the way we adapt to their' ways in trade.
regards
Peter Jeavons

PETER JEAVONS

16th January 2011, 00:04

Despite a downward spiral in my life, where I've had to survive, I owe it all to what Sensei Mizuno and my SK comrades taught me and, what I learn't from them, to regain a hold on what is and always will be, a pride in what I learnt and how to respect others, I suggest some of you still need to learn that, whilst you still have the years in front of you?

David Dunn

16th January 2011, 00:34

Thanks Peter, great post.

PETER JEAVONS

16th January 2011, 00:42

Thanks David, it's from the heart.
Let's hope a few more read it eh?
regards
Peter

PETER JEAVONS

16th January 2011, 19:04

I need to apologise for one statement I made in my post -
'' At the end of the day, with all the debates I have read, all I can say is shame on those who don't support him, shame on the WSKO for what they have done to him, ''

I retract those comments and apologise to anyone who was offended by them.

It was a heartfelt post I made and I went across the line as someone who has been out the loop for many years.
My second post was also a mistake to post, so my apologies for that also.

Everything else I said was from the heart and I guess my disappointment is at, what was a great experience in my life for me, has evolved into this situation.

I wish everyone concerned good will and, as I was taught about knowing what is right and wrong, do what is right. I wish you all the best in whichever path you have chosen to take.
regards
Peter Jeavons

PETER JEAVONS

23rd January 2011, 17:57

As I never got the courtesy of a reply, I retract my apology.
Having received further information, I would say yes, the WSKO acted in a wholly inappropriate manner.
Boy, you guys sure have lost the path.
My only regret was having to relinquish my position due to my accident.
You all need to remember who you owe your current position to, Sensei Mizuno's efforts from 30 odd years ago.
Go dwell on that fact and realise that WSKO have acted in such an injust way that, in any other business, this would reach a constructive dismissal hearing here in the UK ?
regards
Peter

dirk.bruere

23rd January 2011, 18:17

Hi Peter

I don't recall your name, but might remember your face.
I joined in 1979 and have fond memories of dodging the dog sh1t at Littlehampton. Anyway, I am not longer a member of any SK org because I really do not approve of either side. I think WSKO has lost the plot and as for the dispute you will recall that we all signed a bit of paper promising to abide by WSKO decisions. Anyway, all the best.

PETER JEAVONS

24th January 2011, 17:21

Hi Dirk,
I'm on Facebook, if you are. Can see my pic there and contact me, lot older tho, lol!
Yeah, I agree we all signed a form abiding by WSKO decisions but, that doesn't mean we can't challenge their decisions surely?
When we all started the BSKA, we more or less accepted what we were told, we did. I think we need to remember that 30 odd years have gone by and time changes things.
I remember when we created the first constitution for the BSKA, we tried to have a democratic voting system but Sensei Mizuno told us that he had to have overall control, probably cos WSKO insisted on that? 30 years down the line that had to change surely? One cannot expect honour to be paramount to democracy?
Anyway, I think your decision was an admirable one and I wish you the best in your future endeavours.
Feel free to contact me on Facebook buddy,
regards
Peter

Indar

30th January 2011, 08:39

I remember when we created the first constitution for the BSKA, we tried to have a democratic voting system but Sensei Mizuno told us that he had to have overall control, probably cos WSKO insisted on that? 30 years down the line that had to change surely? One cannot expect honour to be paramount to democracy?

Hi Peter, and welcome to E-Budo.

I think that the Nazi party were originally elected to power in Germany, which possibly answers the question about democracy vs honour.

The debate concerning recent events in the BSKF has been thrashed to death over the last year or so, which is probably why no-one want to resurrect it. Shorinji Kempo (for me) has always been about human relationships, so at present in the UK it's really about (re) building bridges.

The original posts about the split are here, if you haven't already seen them:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45320

It's good to hear from someone who was there at the beginning, along with Sensei Russell, Sensei Peter, and Sensei Jee.

Perhaps you can offer your thoughts on how Shorinji Kempo can develop, both nationally and globally ? I don't see how SK could ever be a democracy, but it is democratic: everyone has a free choice to join, leave, re-join, just as long as they respect the values of the organisation.

PETER JEAVONS

30th January 2011, 20:14

Hi Peter, and welcome to E-Budo.

I think that the Nazi party were originally elected to power in Germany, which possibly answers the question about democracy vs honour.

The debate concerning recent events in the BSKF has been thrashed to death over the last year or so, which is probably why no-one want to resurrect it. Shorinji Kempo (for me) has always been about human relationships, so at present in the UK it's really about (re) building bridges.

The original posts about the split are here, if you haven't already seen them:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45320

It's good to hear from someone who was there at the beginning, along with Sensei Russell, Sensei Peter, and Sensei Jee.

Perhaps you can offer your thoughts on how Shorinji Kempo can develop, both nationally and globally ? I don't see how SK could ever be a democracy, but it is democratic: everyone has a free choice to join, leave, re-join, just as long as they respect the values of the organisation.

I think the Nazis' used bully boy tactics, rather than democracy and free elections? I had many of my elders involved at that time so suggest you get the facts right my friend!

I agree, it's about building bridges re SK and yes, I've had the thread referred to me already thanks, sad reading indeed.

It seems contradictory to state that SK will never be democratic, yet it is a democracy? Yeah, people have the choice of joining, leaving etc., same as the Germans had with the Nazi party? But what happened to the ones' who didn't abide by the regime's way?
You guys' need to wake up and realise the WSKO as it is, is a regime. I personally think they need to build the bridges if anyone? Until they submit to that, then there ain't much to be done except bicker and argue?
We can all respect the values of the organisation, wherever, but the organisation shouldn't be beyond being told how to do things better?
regards
Peter

dirk.bruere

30th January 2011, 23:53

SK was a major part of my life for 30 years, and while the social aspects and friendships dominated everyday interactions I always held that the principles to which we adhered were above all else. In practice, loyalty to our ideals was ranked above loyalty to individuals, even if they were our senseis. Of course, what those ideals were (Dokun? Pink book? saying of Doshin So?) and how they were to be interpreted were up to the individual Kenshi. At the end of the day: To thine own self be true.

As for WSKO, it is going the way of all great organizations founded by visionary charismatic leaders - downhill on the death of its leader because nobody of comparable stature or ability has taken over. Enough machinery was put in place by Doshin So to enable SK as an organization (WSKO) to coast onwards for perhaps 2 generations. If whoever follows WSKO's current leader is another mediocrity then it will die. It's only salvation would be the maintenance of Doshin So's teaching and ideals in splinter groups like BSKF. I would give WSKO about 20 more years before it shatters completely. The fracture lines certainly exist in Japan but are held in check by the loyalty of many disaffected senior kenshi. If the next leader is as bad as the current one - game over.

Indar

31st January 2011, 09:32

I would give WSKO about 20 more years before it shatters completely.

possibly.....or possibly not. if I was in the prediction business I'd go into competition with Jonathan Cainer and try and make some money. ;)

however. the great thing about Kongo Zen is that it is a practical philosophy; so people interested have 3 choices;

belong to WSKO and influence its' development
try to set up an alternative
sit on the sidelines and criticise

looking at what WSKO does, at present it's the only game in town.

dirk.bruere

31st January 2011, 10:32

belong to WSKO and influence its' development

You do have a sense of humor!
Even very senior Japanese kenshi who are unhappy with Honbu are unable to do that.

JL.

31st January 2011, 11:31

Gassho!

It has been stated (and proven) here e. g. by Anders-sensei on numerous occasions that WSKO does indeed react to criticism and suggestions from kenshi anwhere, albeit slowly.
Ignoring this fact is IMHO the main reason behind some of the loudest complaints on here, especially by people who for all I know never even tried to contact WSKO about their dissatisfaction(s).

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Kari MakiKuutti

31st January 2011, 12:43

I would give WSKO about 20 more years before it shatters completely. The fracture lines certainly exist in Japan but are held in check by the loyalty of many disaffected senior kenshi. If the next leader is as bad as the current one - game over.
I predict 5-10 years before the BSKF shatters completely. It is built around one single person. When he retires it is over.

John Ryan

31st January 2011, 15:06

Perhaps you can offer your thoughts on how Shorinji Kempo can develop, both nationally and globally ? I don't see how SK could ever be a democracy, but it is democratic: everyone has a free choice to join, leave, re-join, just as long as they respect the values of the organisation.
It's an interesting point, and maybe more subtle than it first appears. SK the art cannot be a democracy, in the same way that a school doesn't operate on a democratic model where pupils have an equal vote in what they're taught. But what about SK the social organisation? The correct framework then is one of members and administrators, strategic leaders and executives... accountability, transparency and willingness to change with society. Members do have a say here, because their veto is powerful - they can leave if they want, and if enough of them leave, there is no organisation left. They don't have this veto in terms of the art (they can leave the organisation, but they can't learn something different from their sensei than what (s)he teaches). As such, the system of organisation need not be identical to the system of learning budo. It should be tailored to the social values of its target membership. Western countries have strong ideas (ideals?) of democracy, representation and fairness. It is natural that an organisation of such people should not attempt to be top-down autocratic, and that any such attempt will involve its progenitors on a rocky path.

JL.

31st January 2011, 17:53

Gassho!

John-san's analysis seems very accurate and to the point to me.
Within SK I've often heard the adage "no democracy in the dojo, but democray outside of it", meaning that the training is top down, from the sensei or another shuza, whereas the club/federation/etc. should be organised according to the ideas and principles mentioned in the last post. This pattern has many advantages and can even be seen as an extension of Aosaka-sensei's frequent kowa in which he reminds us that SK cannot be democratic as in everyone getting a say (or vote even) on how gyaku gote should be executed, because their level of technical understanding is very different and most of all because it would simply lead to everybody doing the technique in a different way.
IMHO, an organization that holds itself above national rules (esp. laws) isn't viable. An organization that ignores the ideas and input of its memberships will suffer from it (see my last post re. that). And finally an organization that forces its members to do things (esp. against their will) needs a strong incentive to put up with that. At some point at least some of the members will not take it (anymore) and leave. WSKO is a case in point for that.
In result this should mean, that any organization should listen to its members and take their ideas and wishes into consideration. There may be several ways for an organization to do that, but democracy is a pretty well proven one.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Indar

1st February 2011, 08:23

Nous sommes les maçons de notre bonheur.

(We are the builders of our happiness)

http://kempolajonquiere.free.fr/chinkon.html

Just came across this, and thought that it encapsulated the above posts nicely.

colin linz

2nd February 2011, 22:33

From my perspective I see Shorinji Kempo as largely irrelevant and not engaging with people here in Australia. It has had a presence for many years, but it hasn’t grown. I would never think that the Shorinji Kempo organisation could be as happy under a democratic model as some of our other recreational organisations here, but then this is true of many other martial arts organisations. I have a very high opinion of Shorinji Kempo art and philosophy, and most people that I’ve spoken to after demonstrations or visiting a lesson have expressed a desire to learn it. The problem is retention of students. Martial Arts suffer poor retention rates as a rule, but ours seem far worse. Regardless of the leadership model of an organisation, if the leaders are not prepared to welcome honest feedback and look at ways that they can better meet the needs of members, while still working towards the organisational goals, then they will stagnate.

dirk.bruere

3rd February 2011, 04:17

...and most people that I’ve spoken to after demonstrations or visiting a lesson have expressed a desire to learn it. The problem is retention of students. Martial Arts suffer poor retention rates as a rule, but ours seem far worse.
Which orgs keep more members longer - sports or religious?

paul browne

3rd February 2011, 23:12

Gassho,

Which orgs keep more members longer - sports or religious?

I don't have a factual answer but as a 'by birth' Catholic who only enters a church for (a) Weddings, (b) funerals or (c) to admire the art and architecture, I'd say they are about the same.

I seem to be caught in Groundhog day. I've been reading the same comments, veiled insults and psuedo predictions from all camps for that past two years.
Can we please move on:nw: (nearest thing to a begging Icon I could find)

Paul
Kesshu

Rob Gassin

3rd February 2011, 23:40

Martial Arts suffer poor retention rates as a rule, but ours seem far worse.

Hi Colin,
For a change, I disagree with you. I think retention rate varies from one branh to another. The Melbourne Branch has an excellent retention rate. The problem we encounter is 'Brand Recognition' - Very few new members walk thru the door. However. once they do, a large proportion remain for 1 year or more.

Cheers, Rob

colin linz

4th February 2011, 00:46

Branches will vary that is for sure, but ask yourself how many stay to shodan, or more importantly move on to form branches themselves.

Brand recognition is certainly a big challenge here too. There are many martial arts over the last couple of decades that have gone from new and unknown to being very popular. A good local program will go a long way to achieving local recognition, but in the end, if the parent bodies lack the ability or desire to understand their members and react meaningfully to their feedback, then members start to move away and find something else.

Maro

4th February 2011, 01:42