Koryu and Education

[john mark]

Is it my imagination or are Koryu practitioners better educated than other martial artist?

Here are my observations:

I am associated with two Koryu groups in NJ; and nearly all of the participants in both groups have or are working towards a college degree. In one group over 60% have or are working towards a post graduate degree, while approximately 50% of other group have post graduate degrees.

I attended a Koryu seminar in January 2001 with participants from all over the United States and Japan. I believe that the percentage of participants with college or post graduate degrees was equally high. In fact nearly 10% of the attendees were lawyers or law students. There were also MDs, engineers, writers, etc.

I do not believe that the gendai budo groups that I belonged to can make similar claims.

I am not sure where this is headed or if the relationship is spurious.

Best,

[Neil Hawkins]

I think that, owing to the long-term commmitment required by Koryu training, it attracts the same sort of people that are prepared to commit to long-term education. In fact many see koryu training as an education, and persue it as such.

Interesting point though.

Neil

[BC]

Originally posted by john mark
I do not believe that the gendai budo groups that I belonged to can make similar claims.


I don't necessarily agree that one could extrapolate that all gendai can't make similar claims, and think doing so could be an overgeneralization. Although I don't practice a koryu art, I can comment on my observations about at least a couple of non-koryu arts. In the aikido dojo where I practice, we have approximately 100 active members, and I can only think of a handful of them that don't have college degrees or aren't currently pursuing one. Maybe 10% of our membership. And, typical for martial arts, the dojo is certainly not in what I would call a "good neighborhood" in Chicago. In contrast, years ago I practiced kenpo in a college town of all places, and the demographics of the dojo membership were almost a reversal of my aikido dojo. That is, most of the adult members did not have a college degree, nor were they pursuing one.

Therefore, I think there is more to this particular demographic (education levels) than just whether it is koryu or gendai. Although the suggested relationship between the long term focus on koryu arts and long term education appears logical and intuitively appealing to me. Also, assuming we're talking here about westerners practicing the koryu, would it be safe to say that there might be some difficulty in obtaining enough observations due to the limited number of westerners practicing the koryu?

I am interested to hear other people's observation of this topic in their own observations and experiences.

[Rennis]

Just to add a important detail to the conversation, here is something to keep in mind when thinking about Koryu practitioners who have trained in Japan for any given period of time. You need a college degree just to get a visa in Japan. If you want to train in koryu here, almost by default you have a degree. There are exceptions like myself, but even I am still here as a college student. While this level of education doesn't apply to training in, say, the US, it does apply to just about all the koryu teachers in the US and may help explain something of the atmosphere of the group they create in terms of the type of people that they gather together personality-wise.

Rennis Buchner

[gmellis]

In addition to Rennis' most observant point, I would include the possibility that some people may have initially come to Japan to advance their graduate studies in whatever field related to Japan that they were pursuing, and somewhere along the way got involved in a Koryu. There are many academics that reside in Japan for long periods of time studying such fields as anthropology, history and avoid-a-real-jobology (Hehehe). Besides, certainly don't go making the point that Koryu Bunnies are intellectuals, or I will have to slap a point of evidence in your face: 1.) I am a nitwit, and 2) I practice a Koryu. Although I could be the exception to the rule.

[Son of Thunder]

Originally posted by gmellis
studying such fields as anthropology, history and avoid-a-real-jobology (Hehehe).

I resembl... er... resent that remark. ;)

From my own admittedly limited experience, I think the difference has to do with the emphasis of the teacher. Most gendai artists by their own admittance study the physical aspect of the MAs almost exclusively. You don't study at a McDojo for the cultivation of your character; you go there to look good breaking boards and winning forms competitions. On the other end of the physical arts spectrum are a number of the "hybrid" arts, which focus of kicking butts (in or out of a ring/octagon) to the exclusion of other aspects.
To be perfectly honest, a good number of koryu artists go the opposite way. They ignore the physical aspect for the mental/spiritual side of things. A very balanced and peaceful character, but couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag.
At any rate, if there is any credence at all to my observations, that might explain the education gap mentioned. Hmmmm... I learn to kick butts while pursuing a doctorate in psychology (a variant form of avoid-a-real-jobology:p). Would that make me the perfect martial artist? Oooooo...
I rule. :smokin:

[john mark]

Members of the Shutokukan Dojo (Shinto Muso Ryu) informed me of my serious mathematical mistake. Thank the Maker none were holding anything more dangerous than a glass of ale. It would have been ugly if they had sticks or sharp pointy things in their hand.

Any way, all but one member of the group has at least one post graduate degree and the number of post graduate degrees held by this academically challenged crew exceeds the number of members. Lastly, all or nearly all are bi- or multi-lingual and are yudansha in other MA including aikido, kempo and kyokushin.

Best,

[Joseph Svinth]

How valid is the statistical sampling? The reason I ask is that if the sampling is based primarily on the enrollment of several clubs then it is possible that you are seeing that which mathematician Richard K. Guy calls "The Law of Small Numbers." As mathematician Underwood Dudley defines this general rule, "The Law of Small Numbers has nothing to do with probability, except that it implies that, since there are too few small integers to go around, coincidences will occur that can mislead."

[john mark]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
How valid is the statistical sampling?

Debating issues relating to the validity of various sampling methodology may be better suited for another BBS or the universities. At any rate, I'm too far away from the stuff to hold up my end of the discussion. Son of Thunder on the other hand probably should lend his 2 cents.

Let's take a step back and examine whether my observations can be generalized. If the answer is yes, i.e., koryu practitioners are a better educated lot than other budo types, then is it correct to conclude that these other budo types perceive koryu practitioners to be snobs not only because we train in a unique art, but because we are also better educated, better looking and can drink more than the average Joe.

Chucky, having fun yet?

Best,

John "Please Don't Take Me Too Seriously" Mark

[Kit LeBlanc]

John Mark,

I think the reason some people think koryu people are snobs is because of posts like that last one you made!

Unique art, cultural preservation, blah blah blah, koryu started as codified methods surviving and dominating in personal combat. How can we be preserving those methods with any honesty if now the discussion is no longer about "why my ryu is better with proof from actual combative encounters" but instead "well, my dojo has more master degrees than your dojo."

The founders of the various combative ryuha are turning in their graves, no doubt.

Kit LeBlanc

"Combat Realism Snobs Unite"

[john mark]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
John Mark,

I think the reason some people think koryu people are snobs is because of posts like that last one you made! … "Combat Realism Snobs Unite"

Mr. LeBlanc,

Thanks for taking the bait. I must admit it took more effort than I anticipated and the response came from an unexpected quarter. I'm slipping!

BTW, I was impressed by your and your groups demonstration in Seattle January past.


Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
How can we be preserving those methods with any honesty if now the discussion is no longer about "why my ryu is better with proof from actual combative encounters"

I'm not sure if a discussion about combat effectiveness is meaningful. My Dad use to say you can learn all the martial art techniques you want, but the only way to know what you have learned works is to fight. By fighting he meant in a completely uncontrolled situation. Since I have not been in a brawl in over 20 years, not a member of the military or law enforcement, I don't know if the stuff works. In fact, I never wacked anybody with a jo with the intent to kill or cut anything other than soggy mats. I'm not even sure if my kyokushin stuff works anymore as I haven't faced another fighter with the intent to take his head off since my 35th birthday, more than 8 years ago.

I do believe, however, that I am attempting to preserve the arts (i) by training sincerely and intently and (ii) by practicing the techniques without any modifications.


Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
The founders of the various combative ryuha are turning in their graves, no doubt.

Well they probably have been turning in their graves for about 400 years. If I recall my history lessons correctly during the Edo Period (1600 - 1870), there was a great emphasis by the bugei on learning stuff other than the most efficient way to dispatch their enemy. Although this emphasis was mandated probably for reasons of social control, my observations and those of others seem to indicate that this phenomena continues. At least there seems to be a correlation between Koryu and education.

The question, then, is this relationship a continuation of the Edo Period trend or is it some thing else?

Best,

[Kit LeBlanc]

John,


"I'm not sure if a discussion about combat effectiveness is meaningful. My Dad use to say you can learn all the martial art techniques you want, but the only way to know what you have learned works is to fight. By fighting he meant in a completely uncontrolled situation. Since I have not been in a brawl in over 20 years, not a member of the military or law enforcement, I don't know if the stuff works. In fact, I never wacked anybody with a jo with the intent to kill or cut anything other than soggy mats. I'm not even sure if my kyokushin stuff works anymore as I haven't faced another fighter with the intent to take his head off since my 35th birthday, more than 8 years ago. "

Exactly.....sounds like your dad knew what he was talking about.

I guess I do fit right in with the generalization, though, because I do have a degree.


P.S. thanks for the kind words on the demo! I'm sorry but I can't place a face with your name.

Kit LeBlanc

[Kit LeBlanc]

-

[Kit LeBlanc]

John,


<<I'm not sure if a discussion about combat effectiveness is meaningful. My Dad use to say you can learn all the martial art techniques you want, but the only way to know what you have learned works is to fight. By fighting he meant in a completely uncontrolled situation. Since I have not been in a brawl in over 20 years, not a member of the military or law enforcement, I don't know if the stuff works. In fact, I never wacked anybody with a jo with the intent to kill or cut anything other than soggy mats. I'm not even sure if my kyokushin stuff works anymore as I haven't faced another fighter with the intent to take his head off since my 35th birthday, more than 8 years ago. >>

Exactly.....sounds like your dad knew what he was talking about.

I guess I do fit right in with the generalization, though, because I do have a degree.


P.S. thanks for the kind words on the demo! I'm sorry but I can't place a face with your name.

Kit LeBlanc

[john mark]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
I'm sorry but I can't place a face with your name.

I was the smart, good looking, hard drinking snobbish guy with a crew cut sitting at your boss' table at dinner.

Best,

John "The Proud Father of A Soccer Champ" Mark

[Diane Skoss]

Originally posted by Jim Kass
I would think length of time the Dojo was in existence would also have a major bearing on the membership. I am aware of a Dojo founded in 1950 by a Shihan, currently the membership resembles what Mr. Mark is eluding to.


Just for the record, the dojo to which John is referring has been around for one year. Also, 100% of the female members have at least two advanced degrees (and yes, we do have more than one "chick with stick", though fewer than three). Ain't statistics fun?

Cheers,

Diane Skoss

P.S. Kit, John was the Chinese fellow who was a member of our small NJ contingent.

[Jerry Johnson]

"There are lies, lies, and then there are stats." Is a saying that I am reminded of.

I think as society moves on through time weight of degrees lessen as more people attend colleges. My father had a high school degree which was required for his job. Today to do the same job they require a masters. I also think with the job market and economy changing formal degrees are going to be more specialized. My point is 20-30 years ago people taking martial arts - koryu/gendai . Mostly, only had a high school degree. I think because society's demands are changing things like degree % also change. In 20-30 more years maybe people taking koryu will all be in the computer field with Ph.D's. In fact this may be true for all martial arts.

I have bounced around for a while seeing different dojo's ( not knowing what a koryu was) and I have talked about this in another thread concerning age vs. martial art choice ( good thread that shows age is a factor in determines an art of choice) and I really have to say there are a mix of education levels and employment out there. I have been to judo clubs and found very intelligent people with and without degrees. I have been to iaido classes and find the same thing. Though I do have to say you will find people in martial arts with advance degrees in places where the community supports jobs that require advance degrees or where the community supports and has access to advance education. I also think it depends also on the Sensei too. Birds of a feather sort of thing. I personally think people with advanced degrees are more discriminating and likely to training in an art that simulates their mind, and social requirements, and is a low risk of injury and the level of potential violence involvement. This would fit many koryu and gendai as well. Some Koyru has less or no randori for example. Age, not education level, I think is a bigger factor ( age is also connected with getting an advance degree) is a better indicator for those to tend to gravitate to a Koryu. In fact, I don't think it is a Koryu v.s. Gendai thing. I think more koryu are less aggressive in teaching style and activity, etc., and have a component that appeals to the academic. i.e. learning a culture and history.

If you really think about, there was a time in Japanese history when the samurai where uneducated. Most samurai at times were in their teens when they left home for military service. It seems that mostly during times of peace did samurai have time and opportunity ( lived long enough ) to become educated. NOw these military ways are considered koryu and have become arts. Usually, educated people have a appreciation for the arts. But, I am reminded that koyru or gendai what we are learning is to kill or harm. I doubt very much people with Ph.D's are sent out on a battle field. That is it is not typical to train a killing machine with a brain. When that brain can be used else where. Koryu does belong to the uneducated. ( i was asked to use Smilies ) here goes :)

[RDeppe]

I've heard Aikido Sensei bragging about this sort of thing for over 15 years.

--I'd have to agree with the snob comment on this subject.

--All the same it might be true. Don't know though. My SMR group runs the gamut; and then there is the complication of 3 of them being 18 or under.

[Kit LeBlanc]

John and Diane,

OH, NOW I remember you.

And from the little bit I have heard of Ellis' new article for Koryu Books, it addresses many points brought up in this thread.

I don't consider having a membership boasting of advanced degrees in education to necessarily be a good thing in and of itself, if there is a loss in the vitality of the ryu because the members are more interested in erudite cultural and historical discussions than pushing themselves to the edge, and past it.

I think that a dismissal of the combative element as not meaningful, even from the point of view of a modern practitioner who "would never need to USE this stuff," is a dismissal of what at its core makes budo budo. Otherwise, why do budo at all? There are many other Ways that can be practiced in order to inculcate the same cultural aspects without the pretense of practicing "combative arts."

Now, if there is an interest and cultivation of the cultural and historical aspects (which I do feel are important), and an equal cultivation of realistic training, then I think that is the path to preserve vital budo.

What it boils down to for me, in terms of dojo membership, is that if the practitioners are the kind of folks that gained their advanced degrees on chess scholarships, its probably not a good thing for the vitality of the fighting system. If the practitioners gained advanced degrees on wrestling or football scholarships, it is probably better.

No insults intended.

Kit LeBlanc

[Diane Skoss]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
I think that a dismissal of the combative element as not meaningful, even from the point of view of a modern practitioner who "would never need to USE this stuff," is a dismissal of what at its core makes budo budo. Otherwise, why do budo at all? There are many other Ways that can be practiced in order to inculcate the same cultural aspects without the pretense of practicing "combative arts."

Now, if there is an interest and cultivation of the cultural and historical aspects (which I do feel are important), and an equal cultivation of realistic training, then I think that is the path to preserve vital budo.


Amen to that, Kit! My only concern is when folks use combative functionality to define or solely characterize the koryu today. I've emphasized the cultural aspects in my own writings, in reaction to what I saw so frequently when I first returned to the U.S., i.e. the guys who cloaked homegrown fighting systems in (misunderstood) Japanese trappings, then complained, when questioned, that the system was effective, and therefore should be classified as koryu bujutsu.

I couldn't agree with you more that both aspects are vital.

Also--to everyone reading this thread--John is notoriously fond of pulling people's legs (if you hadn't already gathered that). He isn't really serious about making a case for the superiority of koryu. He's reporting on a weird coincidence in his own training situations--which may reflect this area more than the arts themselves (on the other hand....:) ).

Diane "Delighted to Discover Herself the Auntie of a Soccer Champion" Skoss

[john mark]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
I think that a dismissal of the combative element as not meaningful, even from the point of view of a modern practitioner who "would never need to USE this stuff," is a dismissal of what at its core makes budo budo. Otherwise, why do budo at all? There are many other Ways that can be practiced in order to inculcate the same cultural aspects without the pretense of practicing "combative arts."

Now, if there is an interest and cultivation of the cultural and historical aspects (which I do feel are important), and an equal cultivation of realistic training, then I think that is the path to preserve vital budo.

Gotta agree with ya; otherwise its just dance!! Besides, Diane and Meik do their best to keep training realistic. On the other hand, a discussion of what is or is not combat effective without first sweating is well … like asking "how would you respond to a d4 opening (Pawn to Queen 4 for those who don't play chess)?"

Best,

[Chuck Clark]

I'm in awe of all youse wit the alphabet behid yer names!!

Cheers!

[john mark]

A good friend of mine who wishes to remain anonymous asked me to post the following:

1. He is an officer in the US armed forces and has been in combat. He is not a Koryu practioner.

2. The officer corp, as a demographic group, has one of the highest percentages of post graduate degrees as compared to any other demographic group in the US.

3. d4, d6.

4. e-budo is a great source of entertainment and information.

[Kit LeBlanc]

John,

That last post was great!

Diane,

Yeah, I agree there is a problem with the pseudo-neo-koryu with falsified lineage claiming that the mat is the only place legitimacy is proven.

Why don't people think you can have both historically proven roots and a vital, strong system?


Kit

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
John and Diane,

If the practitioners gained advanced degrees on wrestling or football scholarships, it is probably better.

Kit LeBlanc

Here's where I disagree, Chess is a vicious fight to the death. Certainly it demands concentration to a degree similar to the demands made on budo practitioners, only for a longer period of time. :)

I have found graduate students in math, physics, philosophy and art history to be tougher than many an athlete who started martial arts.

For sure their bodies may not be as well developed at the start but boy can they learn quickly and comprehensively. As for staying power in the arts, well I have yet to find an athlete who could beat one of my "geeks" who is not also a scholar athlete.

What's my point? ... Oh!! That academic training, which is mental training develops the fortitude needed for budo. No lone lasts in budo without it.

One may not need to go to University to get that type of mental strength but that's where it most frequently occurs. If football or wrestling had such a thing as an advance degree then they might have the same mental strength as a grad student, I think those guys are called coaches.

M

[Jerry Johnson]

I kindly disagree overall, with "Geeks Rule" even though this question was not directed to me, and I am not a part of the conversation. Pardon my rudeness for just jumping in.

I agree "Geeks" can be aggressive and competitive. But just because your not a geek but an athlete doesn't mean you don't have brains. Geeks tend to make the choice of academic pursuits over athletic pursuits. The old athletic stereotypes are a myth as well. Mental toughness is not just found in a class room or a football field. Mental toughness is enduring hardships of many kind and not one or the other. Personal hardships either makes or brakes a person, it is the most difficult to succeed at. It doesn't belong to just "Geeks."

As far as education, the ones with advance degrees may appreciate martial arts tradition at greater lengths , and hence might be more apt to continue it. This may be because academic training teaches adhering to and respect for tradition.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
I kindly disagree overall, with "Geeks Rule" even though this question was not directed to me, and I am not a part of the conversation. Pardon my rudeness for just jumping in.

I agree "Geeks" can be aggressive and competitive. But just because your not a geek but an athlete doesn't mean you don't have brains. Geeks tend to make the choice of academic pursuits over athletic pursuits



I don't think it was ever stated that athletes have no brains, just that geeks have more brains for the very reason you stated, they emphasized academic pursuits over physical pursuits.

For staying power in budo, mental toughness is critical and I see it more in those who have more brain power than physical power. That's my experience.

Nor did I say that Universities are the only place to learn mental toughness, in fact I said Universities may not be the only places, but mental training occurs most often at Universities.

I should add that enduring hardships is one thing, but becoming mentally tough through learning vast amounts of information in several languages while analyzing and solving complex problems. Well that sounds to me like graduate school and koryu bujutsu.

A course of learning in a field like art history or philosophy teaches nothing so inchoate as respect for tradition and what not. Rather it is a furnace where the weaklings fail and great minds come to fruit. Students absorb vast amounts of data and must learn to organize and command that data. It is all very nitty gritty.

So its no surprise that the people best equipped to handle koryu arts are those with strong academic backgrounds. The very best of that group are of course both athletes and scholars.

M

PS, Hey John, good troll, endeavoring to make it worth while. :D

PPS John: Shouldn't your thread be titled: How come koryu people are so much smarter than everybody else? :laugh:

[Jerry Johnson]

I don't mean to get your dandruff up, and I mean this in a good way. I just added what I thought to what I thought you where implying. I have no problem or take no offense with clarification.

But, I do disagree. Koryu belongs to the uneducated which doesn't mean there is no value in education or getting an advance degree. There are all sorts of mental toughness, as there are all sorts of intelligence. Koryu as I understand it is just a word to differentiate the older more established arts, from those more recent. Put it simply a matter of chronology, and not tradition and nothing more. Now I could be wrong. Or the word may mean something different to different people. But, lets face it, the Koryu arts are those practiced mostly by the uneducated and at the time of application where not considered Koryu, right?

I just don't agree in making Koryu arts exclusive by tradition of the privileged., like some professional fields are, or to a certain group of people who have a greater capacity to further academic skills. I do think Koryu arts at one time, where selective to class. Not the educated class of course, but the military class. In this way Koryu where exclusive mostly in history to those of birth/class. I am not saying a persona with an advance education cant' do Koryu, I am also saying Koryu is not out of the uneducated or undergraduates reach.

As far a mental toughness, as a person who has lost everything, important in life not at his own hand Family, home, job, and/or endured society ills over many, many, years and didn't come out full of hatred and anger. This is mental toughness. Which I don't think many of us not reach until past 40 years of age.

Geeks may rule Microsoft, but alot of us wish Microsoft didn't exist.

[john mark]

Lo Lushi,

Nin hao. M, D, wo de tai tai he wo qing ni he ni de [other half] che wanfan. Keyi ma? Qing ni bong women tiao zui hao de zhong hua fan guan.

Gaosu wo nimen de yi lan biao.

Xie xie.


Originally posted by Margaret Lo
So its no surprise that the people best equipped to handle koryu arts are those with strong academic backgrounds. The very best of that group are both athletes and scholars.

I was wondering when you were going to chime in. Huan ying, huan ying.

Good looks, a discriminating palate and desire to do one arm curls are also prerequisites to studying Koryu.



Originally posted by Margaret Lo
PPS John: Shouldn't your thread be titled: How come koryu people are so much smarter than everybody else?

Best,
John “Phi Beta Kappa” Mark

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
I don't mean to get your dandruff up, and I mean this in a good way.

But, I do disagree. Koryu belongs to the uneducated which doesn't mean there is no value in education or getting an advance degree. .... But, lets face it, the Koryu arts are those practiced mostly by the uneducated and at the time of application where not considered Koryu, right?

I just don't agree in making Koryu arts exclusive by tradition of the privileged..

Jerry, my dandruff is under control thanks to that new shampoo. No offense is taken or intentionally given, I too am just stating my many 2 cents.

I don't think anyone is making koryu arts exclusive, except the teachers that is. :) It just so happens that the demands of koryu arts are such that John noted that only those with a certain mindset "make it" so to speak.

I also don't think that koryu arts were for the uneducated, but others will have to weigh in on this issue, I'm just a Karate bum.

I am poking into this thread because I am irked that in this country its OK to talk about superiority or inferiority when its is about physical ability. For athletes: either you make the NFL or you don't and everybody comments on an athlete's prowess or problems.

But when the subject of mental strength comes up well everybody dances around the subject of who is more or less smart (except in graduate schools where your intelligence, or lack there of is considered at length and in public by all your colleagues).

Well for the record, I believe that martial arts are for very intelligent people. The smarter you are the better and the Koryu arts attracts the smartest ones. Said smart people will often happen to gather a few school degrees on their way to the dojo.

M

[Diane Skoss]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
Koryu belongs to the uneducated which doesn't mean there is no value in education or getting an advance degree.

Koryu does not belong to the uneducated; nor does koryu belong to the educated. An individual ryu is the property of a legitimate headmaster or fully licensed instructor. There is hardly enough koryu outside of Japan to really evaluate what sort of folks statistically are training in it. However, Rennis hit the nail on the head regarding anyone who has spent time in Japan (and are therefore slightly more likely to have advanced training/licenses in the koryu)--we had to have degrees.

I think there is a tendency to look for an instructor who shares your qualities and values, so educated people will frequently feel comfortable with one of the folks who has returned from extensive training in Japan. And the mental rigor of the koryu is a real thing--formal education may be a help (and then again, it may not--I don't have the data to compare).

I don't reckon this helps any, but, what the hey (and I have much better things I should be doing!).

Cheers,

Diane Skoss

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo


I don't think it was ever stated that athletes have no brains, just that geeks have more brains for the very reason you stated, they emphasized academic pursuits over physical pursuits.

For staying power in budo, mental toughness is critical and I see it more in those who have more brain power than physical power. That's my experience.

Hi Margaret,

Your post reminded me of the time when I was in the army, going through some tough mental/physical experiences. My squad leader drilled into my head that everything in the Ranger Battalion is 90% mental and 10% physical. A lot of people that came into our unit didn't last long because of this. Out of the 20 friends that came into the unit with me only 2 of us made it through our 4 year term. Sure, there were some that left because of some type of injury or DWI, but most left because they could handle the mental toughness.

From my experience, basing it on the Geek/Athlete factor, both did not last long in the Ranger Battalion. The majority of us were average people.

[Jerry Johnson]

Your post helps allot, I appreciate your tone as well, and you are very helpful. Kindness to strangers ( in this case ) goes along way.

I basically said it belongs to the uneducated basic on readings from historical texts. I understand the Japanese wanting people with an education to enter their country, hence people training in Japan are those with undergraduates (mostly?) and above who choose Koryu arts. Which is a factor into today's martial arts world. I just thought do to other peoples post, people may think learning a Koryu art outside of Japan under someone like yourself would not be intimated because they lack a degree. I think we both agree that you don't need a degree to learn a Koryu art. Only that a degree among other things is a requirement to enter Japan. It just that I am concern that certain misconceptions that could place incorrect perceptions and attitudes about martial arts. I know I have been a victim of that. I am now learning to undue all those misconceptions. Which has lead me to believe it is better to learn right then not at all. So I thank you for you insight and correction.

Thank you.

(I realize this is in poor taste, to all in general, just to note concerning frauds, this is the way to hamper frauds, with discussions like these. By people who are in the know. Just in case someone thought I was contradicting myself. :) )

[john mark]

Deleted as post not related to budo

[Kit LeBlanc]

Hmmmm.

The fact that most people practice "90% mental, 10% physical" is the whole PROBLEM with martial arts. Taijiquan, anyone? What used to be considered the "Supreme Ultimate" of fighting styles is now relegated to New Age health practice by most Chinese and foreign practitioners. Those trying to revive the fairly hard core martial element as practiced by the Chen's and the Yang's in former days are criticized as being "too hard," or "that's not Taiji." The MARTIAL has been redefined as ART, and thinkers have eclipsed the sweaters and bleeders.

Certainly high intelligence and mental toughness are important to excelling at martial study. The latter is THE major component of both martial study and surviving lethal encounters. But ya better have the physical prowess to back it up.

If you think that intelligence and mental toughness ALONE mean that you are martially effective, remind me not to call you for backup when the poop hits the fan. This is a head-in-the-sand, pat-myself-on-the-back-I'm-so-dangerous attitude that can get people seriously hurt, and which is all too common in those martial pursuits which appeal to the more intellectually gifted.

I will compare it to the law enforcement world, where people actually engage in potentially violent conflict and confrontations with people day in and day out, and at times place their lives at risk, which the founders of budo STARTED this stuff for.

A lot of agencies have gone to requiring a 2 year or 4 year degree for new officers. Many are having trouble finding qualified candidates amongst degree holders. Why? Its about MORE than education and intelligence.

A person with the base elements to be a good cop (or, martial artist) will absolutely be a better one with an education, and will benefit from the discipline required to get a degree, or frankly pursue a koryu and immerse themselves in language and cultural study long term.

But a person without said traits will only be convinced that said degree and education naturally makes him or her better, often without recognizing overwhelming evidence to the contrary (i.e. inability to process/dominate a non-cooperative situation in real time under REAL pressure, excessive force and aggression when it is not required, and not enough when it is, etc. etc.)

It comes down to what can you do when someone is coming at you with a knife/stick/sword/whatever and honestly trying to kill you. An education will mean absolutely nothing at that moment, trust me. And this is I think the essence of a MARTIAL tradition, not wearing neat foreign clothes, wondering what kind of quiet strength and dignity you'll attain after years of practice, and the patterns years of sweat make on the wood of your favorite bokken. These things are all important, but they mean NOTHING without the physical ability to make them count when they really have to.

Anyway, a hen hao de Zhonghua fan guan sounds feichang hao chi!

Kit

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Hmmmm.

The fact that most people practice "90% mental, 10% physical" is the whole PROBLEM with martial arts...

Hi Kit,

Don't get me wrong about the physical part. I fully agree with you in that respect.

What I was talking about, in mental toughness, is when you have a 110 lbs ruck on your back and you have been humping (walking in the woods) for about 20 miles up/down the mountains for about 12 hours. You can feel the blisters on your feet bursting and soaking your socks with fluid, not to mention the pounding of your feet on the harden floor of the mountains. Your back is in pain from the ruck sores, and the shoulders, that is supporting the ruck, feels like someone just beat on them with a sledge hammer. When ever you start going up elevation, your legs are full of pain with every step (sometimes you start feeling sorry for the radio operator who is carrying the same as you, plus a radio w/excessories and extra batteries). Then you reach an objective, knowing that your going to give it all you have, just to survive a fire fight, and not letting you friends or your country down. Once you survive that, then you have to carry all of your fallen comrads out of the area to get extracted. Maybe you can get on that helicopter to go home and get some rest, or being told that there is another objective that is 30 miles away for another mission.

Through out the whole mission and pain, you thought to yourself, "What the hell am I doing here. I could be laying on the couch eating pizza and watching TV. Or maybe out partying with my frat buddies and trying to score on a chick. God, I wish I was in school studying for finals and checking out all the babes." Hell, you could have quit at any time during this training mission.

This is the "90% mental and 10% physical" that I was talking about.

At least this was a training mission and not war. Imagine, in a war where you have fellow soldiers quiting while on this same mission.

[Joseph Svinth]

Military officers have advanced degrees because their employer, the US government, insists that they have them to stay employed past the grade of O-4 (major/lt-cdr). While some take rigorous programs, many more sign up with various diploma mills.

As for Ranger Battalion, the physical requirements alone eliminate most people. For example, you can't be female, and you have to be able to pass the 17-21 year old PT test, hike 15 miles, run 5 miles in formation, and swim BEFORE going to the school. (For a full list of requirements, see http://192.153.150.25/rtb/RANGER/CDR_VALIDATION.htm )

Bottom line? The analogies are invalid. In the first case, the requirement is mandated rather than voluntary, and in the second, the physical requirements already eliminate most people.

[Joseph Svinth]

George --

What you are talking about is ganbatte, to endure. Does koryu teach this better than ninpo? Or does it simply get better press because it has that core of highly literate practitioners?

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
George --

What you are talking about is ganbatte, to endure. Does koryu teach this better than ninpo? Or does it simply get better press because it has that core of highly literate practitioners?

Ganbatte comes from ganbaru:
to persist; to insist on; to stand firm; to try one's best.

Does Koryu teach ganbatte better than Ninpo? I would not know, I am just a beginner in both, but I am trying my best :)

What I tried to say, originally, is that the "mental toughness" , from my experience, was found more in regular people, than in a geek or a jock.

BTW, the mission that I described earlier was not in Ranger School.

[john mark]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

Anyway, a hen hao de Zhonghua fan guan sounds feichang hao chi!

Kit

Now I'm really impressed, but not surprised.

I would be extremely impressed if you knew who coined the phrase "tongyonghua" and why.


Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc

It comes down to what can you do when someone is coming at you with a knife/stick/sword/whatever and honestly trying to kill you. An education will mean absolutely nothing at that moment, trust me. And this is I think the essence of a MARTIAL tradition, not wearing neat foreign clothes, wondering what kind of quiet and dignity you'll attain after years of practice, and the patterns years of sweat make on the wood of your favorite bokken. These things are all important, but they mean NOTHING without the physical ability to make them count when they really have to.

Agreed. Here's the tricky part - training and practicing without serious injury (as opposed to the threat of serious injury which I believe is a necessary ingredient to martial arts training). This is much easier without weapons than it is with them.

Best,

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by George Kohler


My squad leader drilled into my head that everything in the Ranger Battalion is 90% mental and 10% physical. ..most left because they could handle the mental toughness.

From my experience, basing it on the Geek/Athlete factor, both did not last long in the Ranger Battalion. The majority of us were average people.

For sure the geeks would not have cut it physically. But I would not call anyone who made it as a ranger an "average" person. Backgrounds may have been average, but that is the case for great scholars or athletes too.

Also, as Kit noted, the physical component is critical, I agree, I never said that the physical component is unimportant, it is integral to MA.

However, if I had to choose my students from 20 grad students vs. 20 jocks I would pick the grad students UNLESS the jocks are also scholars of the same caliber. Reason is that physical toughness is easier to obtain than mental toughness and concomitant suitability for MA. Once you have the mental toughness, you have a student who will do what it takes to develop a good physique.

Of the scholars I would pick: my first choice is Art Historians, personal bias there. Next up are hard headed scientists such as physicists, mathematicians, also lawyers, engineers and philosophers. Artists also excel but are unreliable. Athletes stay less than the others once they realize that competition is not a big part of a more traditional martial art. No scholarships, no cheerleaders. :(

Now if my scholar also happened to be a varsity athlete well then I have it made.

M

[carl mcclafferty]

Folks:

I guess it depends on your meaning of educated. I've known people with PHDs who could not pour urine out of their boot if the instructions were printed on the heel. As far as Koryu, its not lost on me that Both Yamada Sensei and Otake Sensei teach out of Dojo in their back yards. Yamada and Otake Sensei remarked if you taught out of your home you'd be less likely to have undesirables in your art. Neither ever asked me about my education level but instead tested my tenacity, fortitude and loyalty over the long haul. But hell, being an old Vietnam bush beater I had a barrel full of that just sitting inside me.

Carl McClafferty

[Roger Lake]

My only concern is that now it seems that higher education is being equated with mental "toughness". Maybe I am biased because I do not have a degree. I certainly would be willing to test my mental "toughness" with anyone and their "alphabet soup" after their name.
I know a lot of folks who have had the opportunity to travel to foreign lands and go to school full time simply because financially the were taken care of. I certainly do not consider myself unintelligent and I am certainly no" clown off the street"(though I spent a considerable amount of my yute here on the streets of noo joisy).
I have been working full time since I was 18 and have helped pay for my wife to go to school. We have been together now for 11 years. I may not be mentally"tough" enough for koryu by some folks' definition, but I think I know the value of hard work, commitment, and dedication.

Roger Lake

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Roger Lake
My only concern is that now it seems that higher education is being equated with mental "toughness". ....I certainly do not consider myself unintelligent and I am certainly no" clown off the street" I have been working full time since I was 18 and have helped pay for my wife to go to school. We have been together now for 11 years. I may not be mentally"tough" enough for koryu by some folks' definition, but I think I know the value of hard work, commitment, and dedication.
Roger Lake

Let's try this again. Just because someone does not have an advanced degree does not mean they are not mentally tough nor does it mean that they are tough.

A negative should be also be proven and not merely assumed that's basic scientific reasoning and applies here as well.

The only point being made is that a rigorous education is one indicator of mental toughness. It is not definitive but it improves the odds that someone who finished a difficult course of work over 3-8 years has some of the grit necessary for budo training (don't leave out that last bit, it is the crux of this thread).

In contrast, someone who has been through a war, or through ranger school, or is experienced in law enforcement is certifiably mentally tough. In the civilian world however, selection is made through education not combat.

So nobody is saying that those without alphabet soup degrees is stupid, just that those with degrees are proven to be smart to a certain level in a certain area. In my experience that translates well into budo training.

I certainly know that people without fancy degrees are intelligent, Bill Gates for one never finished college.

M

[Jerry Johnson]

I can't agree. I tried. I thought about it, I rolled it around. I can't. There has been this, I go to school and some how that makes me better then those who don't. I see it in your various post. i.e. paraphrase "Koryu is for educated people. I would take scholars over Jocks, if a jock, then it's a scholar at that. " That is pretty narrow minded. People who are highly academically skilled or apt don't need to struggle, they don't need the mental toughness you speak about. Most of the struggle for the rest is ego bustin. A game to teach 18 year olds they are not as bright as they thought they were in high school. Work is something they have to do now, not something that Mommy and Daddy does for them. And throw in some dog training obstacles to weed out the not so brilliant and those better designed for blue collar work. And you have an Undergraduate programs of most Universities that are not considered party schools.

Now if you are one of the highly skilled and not average academics you decide to go to grad school. The ride is far easier then those who had to work to get there. Which still doesn't equate a special mental toughness. In some grad schools who boast they are the best and don't take the "average academic" into their illustrious programs. Where the motto is you make it past the common and now working in the elite world of academics. To make those of average academic skill earn their way into the elite creme de creme of academia. This is "cut-throated" platform of egoism. Which usually prevents then from working entry level jobs. Talk about mental toughness, try getiting stuck in the mail room, or past up after 20 years on the job, etc. Nothing is easy. Now if you want to run you class with this type of arrogance that is your doing. But, it really has nothing to do with anyone's ability to be more "mentally tough" in relation to doing koryu that is if you can find one outside of Japan as I have been told. Btw, if I was in your slippers, I would take the academic jock, they have to do both sports and school. But, I am sure you don't find too many of them in grad school do you?

I think this whole idea you present is really silly. I am sorry that is my opinion. I think it is a good time to move on in this discussion and discover other aspects.

[john mark]

Is it time to start a new thread?

How about, what are the personal characteristics a koryu teacher looks for in his/her students? Are there any probation periods before you are even allowed to start training? Once training starts, when does the probation period end?

With respect to the first question, we are off to a good start.

Mr. LeBlanc has forcefully stated that physical toughness and ability is a must. Gotta agree because after all, to quote my Dad, the purpose of martial arts is to put someone forcibly on the ground! My teachers also agree but suggests that there is “other stuff,” but the other stuff is not easy to articulate. See http://koryu.com/library/dskoss7.html

Lo Lushi argues intelligence and mental toughness is indispensable. She’s right – practicing the same waza for 2-3 hours requires mental toughness. Observation skills are a critical component of intelligence. Obtaining a post graduate degree is a good indication that a person is intelligent and mentally tough. Law school and defending a dissertation require a lot of mental toughness. Others have argued that there are other ways to establish mental toughness. They’re right.

Mr. McClafferty states “tenacity, fortitude and loyalty” is what his teachers look for. Mr. Hawkins and others suggest commitment is critical. Obtaining a post graduate degree is a good indication that a person has those qualities.

Lastly, there is a hint that “undesirables” and “clowns off the street” are not welcomed. I’m not sure what this means, but I recall reading about a long hair scruffy poorly dressed guy showing up unannounced at a koryu dojo declaring that DFD was his aunt. As it turns out, …

Your cogent, edited and proof read thoughts in English please. Spelling and grammar counts!!

;- )®

[Kit LeBlanc]

John,

Well, that scruffy long-haired "nephew of Donn Draeger" also had a degree, and is very intelligent, to sort of turn things back around in a discussion which is now officially going nowhere.

And that same man now requires prospective students to have at least three years prior training in wrestling, Judo, BJJ or similar "jock" arts, and specifically NOT to include Aikido.

While I can't speak for him, I feel I am safe in making the observation that it is the general types of folks which prefer the former over the latter that he prefers as students.


Kit.

Oh yeah, Wo bu renshi "tongyong hua." Kongpa wo bu gou congming!

[john mark]

Kit,

The difference between putonghua and tongyonghua is very subtle. While both mean common language, the first character of the former means universal. Tongyong means commonly used. In China there are over 40 ethnic groups with their own dialect, which is often used instead of Mandarin. For example, at home I speak Taishanhua or Guangdonghua. Mandarin is far from universal, but is commonly used.

President Zhang in an attempt to give recognition to the various ethnic groups, in particular certain non-Han groups first used the term in '97.

Betcha a brew that there's a whole bunch of guys with degrees in your group.

Best,
John

[Jerry Johnson]

I realized I jumped into this thread. I realize the under-current I know the plays, and I have been around long enough to know when I am not wanted. It's funny, because I am too lazy or rushed to "polish" my posts and write as I would speak that I over look my English skills. I am sorry. I never found it exciting to proof read.

What I do find offensive is this crazy idea that some how what has been defined as intelligence ( academic training and skill ) is required for koryu. That academic boot camp and chess playing ability is some how superior in learning a martial art. If that is so, then people like Steven Hawkins, Albert Einstein. Big Blue, all should be the best martial artists in the world. In fact, as mental toughness goes people with Ph.D. should be making ultra-masters of the perfect art.

Granted there is something to say for people who stick it out in the academic world. But please lets be realistic. Intelligence is not simply unique to the sciences or the academic world. Take the Aborigines of Australia they have fantastic spacial sequencing. Consider what kind of mental toughness and intelligence designed the boomer-rang. According to some, that wouldn't make good martial artist. In fact, does it just has to be the "formally" educated who can learn martial art. There is nothing wrong with being educated, it when you start putting yourself above others because of your education. This usually stops when you get into the really world. Then you find other things and reasons and ways to put them yourself above others.

The type of mental toughness needed for a martial art is usually taught in the dojo. Either you develop it or you don't. It doesn't matter when or where as long as you do. But, please do tell me it is exclusive to one class or another, .i.e. the advanced degreed. I have never been in the military, but I think military soldier's develop a mental toughness akin and that which surpasses what is required for most martial arts. I don't think a graduate student's mental toughness they develop is akin or surpasses what is required for most martial arts. I think graduate students do have a jump on a novice. But not any athlete.

Before I loose it here, I realize this is a trollin thread. But, in every trollin thread there is a bit of truth. And yes, believe it or not I do have an degree, a simple B.S. -a.k.a. bull shitting, I wish not to achieve anything higher as a M.S. a.k.a More shitting nor a Ph.D. which is a.k.a Piled High and Deep. And ya know what, I don't even study a Koryu. Geee…. So this whole thread has reached an honorary accolade level of Ph.D.

Ya know the guy who invented the boomer-rang wasn't even an engineer. Or the dude that ran a message 20+ miles andinitiated the first marathon. Or the first person to discover fire. Amazing what unintelligent people can do.

[MarkF]

So when the entire fraternity realized they were all being thrown out of college, Bluto said: "Seven years of College down the drain. My parents are going to be pissed."

Of course, Bluto left with the queen of the higher-level WASP-ish sorority and went on to become a United States senator.

Higher education. Animal House rules!

Flounder, though, left school to lose all that weight (now that is commitment), and his acting career, as had the rest of him, went right down the toilet.:moon:

[john mark]

Mr. Johnson,

Lighten up. You shouldn't take me or the bantering on E-budo too seriously.

Let's take another line of reasoning. Have you ever noticed that Kyokushin Dojo (I'm first and foremost a Kyokushin man) are generally located in tough blue collar neighborhoods and most of the members are blue collar types? The same seems to be true about the really good boxing gyms. (I've boxed on the PAL, Golden Gloves, and club circuits.) You have to be mentally and physically tough to do well in both. Why? The easiest thing to do, for an example, in a 35 man kumite is to give up and stop.

Education matters! In my field, if you are not at the top of your class from the top schools, lots of jobs aren't available to you. That's life.

One of the greatest dangers facing this country is the dumbing down of our citizens to achieve equality. Individuals are not equal. One of the most absurd lines of reasoning in this area is the positive correlation between skin pigment and low standardize test scores means the tests are unfair. The relationship is spurious; there is no causal relationship. (Gee do I recall somebody hinting that the relationship between koryu and education was spurious?) The ETS settlement, the application of the ADA to education and the standardized test debates taking place in CA will only lead to a 2d rate society. Intellectual capital is what's going to drive our economy.

Since I do not know you, the only way for me to judge you and to form an opinion about you is by your posts. I find them difficult to decipher, so I generally skip over them. It may be rude of me to do so, but hey I got a hectic job, 4 kids, and training …

Mr. Feigenbaum,

I have new found respect for you!! I'm impressed by anyone who can quote the classics.

Best,

[RDeppe]

This has gotten pretty silly. I know PHD's who are very tough and know PHD's who aren't; etc, etc. etc!

I think there is probably zero correlation!

And on the same subject, I don't think Koryu requires a bit more mental toughness than wrestling or bicycle racing-- it probably requires less!

[Jerry Johnson]

I don't think I have to lighten up as much as I need to just get out. The thread isolation just got to me. I guess I was a little bit of a "Jack" when being caught up in the "REdrUM" of the moment.










http://www.drummerman.net/shining/johnny.jpg


My apologies.

[Jerry Johnson]

Originally posted by Jim Kass
[



Mr. Johnson,

Lighten up.. You are not as educated as
Margaret,


Here's Johnny!

Mr. Kass, psssst, I have news for you, neither of us are a smart as Stephen Hawkins.

Your comment is exactly what I feared and got my goose feathers up previously. The point Margaret echoes is that all too familiar playground mentality that some of us never lose of, "I am better then your are, I can do this better then you can...nanny, nanny, Billy goat." Please, the educated are not more apt to koryu then any one else.

But, what I wish Margaret would have said, which would have been more responsible, is that people with advance degrees can succeed in the martial arts. That educators and administrators must look hard and deep at what martial arts offers to build better programs in their universities. People with degrees or advance degrees find martial arts training to be a valued attribute to their education. When taking a martial art and getting an degree both require mental toughness that can work hand in hand to achieve success.

I would really hate to bring this up but in my limted scope of education I feel something like this would have been more advantagious to the thread. At this point I am reminded of what you stated that she is more educated then I. As well as, what her remark that koryu is not for those without advanced degrees because they have mental toughness.

Sincerely,
keeping "Jack" underwraps

[MarkF]

Jerry,
I wouldn't worry too much about it. I have a bunch of letters after my name and two in front of it (in short), and I'm a judo player.

John,
It is Mark. Dean Wormer may not have been a Havaard man, but Hasty Pudding is another story.

Classic? You bet!:D

Mark

[Neil Hawkins]

People,

All this talk of education is making my brain hurt!

I think intelligence is essential, but education is merely useful. I don't think there is necessarily a direct corelation between the two.

As for the boomerang, it wasn't 'invented', there was 30,000 years of trial and error. Beside that, there are not many 'traditional' designs that actually come back. The design was to allow a relatively heavy piece of wood to be thrown accurately. Aerodynamics were improved gradually and a curve put in so that it struck with more force (smaller impact area) but the coming back thing was probably an accident.

The Aborigines are very practical, but they placed a low importance on material possessions (like most nomadic peoples) and so didn't 'invent' very much at all outside of the tools and weapons they needed to survive.

The thing that amazes me is their food. There are some small red berries, that are very poisonous. Aboriginal women have at times used them in very small quantities to perform abortions by inducing a miscarriage. Well someone discovered that if you drop these berries into water, some float and some sink. You discard the floating ones as they are most poisonous. The sinking ones are also poisonous, but if you soak them in water for two days, mash them into a cake to exclude the water, the cake is then cooked in the ashes of a fire, and can now be eaten safely.

The trial and error must have been a pain, but they came up with a solution in the end. :D

BTW. It's Stephen Hawking, not Hawkins, otherwise I might be a hell of a lot smarter than I am! (Genius is inherited, after all, if Mr. Amdur can have Draeger as an aunty, I think I can have Stephen Hawking! ;))

Regards

Neil

[Ron Tisdale]

Strange, I don't recall Margaret Lo saying anything about "billy goats", or "Nannies" either.

Jerry, at the risk of going a tad overboard, might I suggest that you do a search on the author "popie" on this bulletin board. His posts (and our reactions to them) might give a very good lesson...

Ron Tisdale ;)

[Jerry Johnson]

Neil, is smarter then both of me. Ha Ha. I had a feeling the boomer rang thing would come back and hit me. Ha Ha. I see your point of trial and error.

Something I didn't notice before, is the real unsung heroes are those who didn't make it through the berry testing. It is amazing how so many cultures relied on trial and error. I admit my examples where not the best. I didn't have time to research something like the lathe for example, which I would have prefered. That was really my fault, but I am glad you gave great information, I learned something. Thank you. I am now one step closer to Dr. Hawkin(g)s. Granted there are a 100,000.000 steps between us.

------------------------------
Humility, I think is the key. I work with some highly intelligent people ( true greeks and nerds) in a technical field with every thing from bachelor degrees to post doctored degrees. I work with some clients that are not so educated, who never made it through high school, but extremely savvy enough to make millions and became very powerful and influential people. And they will all brag in some way about themselves in someway and it really gets annoying. How long can you listen to someone toot their horn. The point is, in regard to martial arts, you can have allocates up the wazoo, but being humble is a virtue that most people will ignore. I didn't like the arrogance that I was hearing through out the thread, Such arrogant, narrow and stereotypical thought and tone is harmful. It was something I felt to be dangerous and unnecessary to both people and how we view martial arts. . Let's face it arrogance isn't pretty and it can do harm. I like what Mark said, that rings true. That people that are highly self-actualizing, have high and secure self-esteem don't need to brag, or be arrogant. In fact, they tell you how much they don't know, and are less likely ( in my experience) to be narrow minded and exclusive. To basically put other people in a bad light, and themselves in a good one. They are more apt to be humble and encompassing putting everyone in an equal light. They are intelligent enough to understand the dangers and damage arrogance can have.

I was a bit arrogant in my admonishments. Hence guilty of the same crime. But, I realize looking down one's nose at others isn't healthy. No matter how many times you try to re-say it, or try to justify it. I think there is a lesson in this tread. I hope it doesn't go unheeded.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson


The point Margaret echoes is that all too familiar playground mentality that some of us never lose of, "I am better then your are, I can do this better then you can...nanny, nanny, Billy goat." Please, the educated are not more apt to koryu then any one else.

But, what I wish Margaret would have said, which would have been more responsible, is that people with advance degrees can succeed in the martial arts. That educators and administrators must look hard and deep at what martial arts offers to build better programs in their universities. People with degrees or advance degrees find martial arts training to be a valued attribute to their education. When taking a martial art and getting an degree both require mental toughness that can work hand in hand to achieve success.



Jerry:
What responsibility do I have other than to express my opinions, as opposed to what you think my opinions should be?

As to what educators need to do in universities, well you've made a good point and good that you made it why wish that I do it in your stead?

This is a discussion board, we only need to express our positions and support our reasoning. We need not agree.

To clarify: I did NOT say that koryu is only for the educated or that only the educated can be successful in the koryu. Ultimately, how koryu students are selected was discussed by Diane Skoss.

I did say that martial arts requires intelligence and a high degree of education is a sign of intelligence.

I firmly believe that education is essential in creating a better all around human being.

I also think the people who died eating those berries were not as bright as the ones who survived. :laugh:


M

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by MarkF
So when the entire fraternity realized they were all being thrown out of college, Bluto said: "Seven years of College down the drain. My parents are going to be pissed."

Of course, Bluto left with the queen of the higher-level WASP-ish sorority and went on to become a United States senator.

Higher education. Animal House rules!

Flounder, though, left school to lose all that weight (now that is commitment), and his acting career, as had the rest of him, went right down the toilet.:moon:

Mark,
Is this suppose to prove somehow that you are not a geek? I am not convinced. I like South Park, but in my heart, I know I am a geek. You still have all those damnable letters after your name.

I suppose somebody somewhere wanted proof of your education before entrusting people's lives to you.

M

[Jerry Johnson]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo


I also think the people who died eating those berries were not as bright as the ones who survived. :laugh:

M

It's not that I could have been better in your stead, but rather perspective, simply, perspective. We do demand and expect more out from those who are academically trained. And I guess I demanded or expected more from you. That 's all there was to it.


How do you figure? Maybe it was the other way around. The smart ones said " hey let's eat these red berries because other animals do and it gives them nourishment, so logically it should give us nourishment." . So they eat the berries, and died. With this knowledge the average intelligence ones said, humm..we have to find at way to eat these berries without dying-I am mean it's not like there are apple trees all over the place. And then they found a way to make them edible by using their enemies as victims. If this wasn't the case I am sure it was something like it. Otherwise, they won't have survived into this century. Again it is a matter of perspective. I don't assume the most intelligent are those who survived. It's usually the most powerful, who, mostly, are not the smartest. Heck I learned that from watching Survivor :laugh:

Neil help us out.

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson


It's not that I could have been better in your stead, but rather perspective, simply, perspective. We do demand and expect more out from those who are academically trained. And I guess I demanded or expected more from you. That 's all there was to it.

It's usually the most powerful, who, mostly, are not the smartest. Heck I learned that from watching Survivor :laugh:

Neil help us out.

What "more" do you expect? The discussion was, to my mind limited to the point that koryu arts demand intelligent students. All of a sudden everyone assumed that I stated that lack of formal education must equal dumb, which was not what I said.

The fact that such a point can be implied does not mean that it should be implied and I specifically disclaimed that implication as being plain wrongheaded.

I pointed out that Bill Gates never finished college. My boss never started college and was a huge real estate developer. You think I look down on them for lack of degrees?

As to the berries, ya know, I think kids must have died first, ate them then got sick. Boomerangs were created by prehistoric geeks.

M

[Jerry Johnson]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo



As to the berries, ya know, I think kids must have died first, ate them then got sick. Boomerangs were created by prehistoric geeks.

M

NOw that we are into a strong thread undercurrent. I too think the children played a part. Though as a parent those things are something you don'twant to think about. Boomer rangs where created by those who lived through the berry experience. :laugh:

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Jerry Johnson


Boomer rangs where created by those who lived through the berry experience. :laugh:

After living through the berry experience our boomerang creator went after the guy who fed him the berry stew with a big stick. He whacked that fool so hard the stick bent, and as the guy ran away, and he threw it after him, it twisted and came flying back WHACK on his head.

Boomerang-ryu was born.

M

[MarkF]

Actually, Margaret, it was meant just as it read. I was only injecting, or attempting to inject, a little humor, with a modest suggestion that this thread has lived out its usefulness, but even that isn't what I was thinking at the time.

Mark

[Neil Hawkins]

Well, I can't add much more about the berries, but to bring the conversation back to something Martial...

The berry thing reminds me of all the stories about "Dim Mak". I have this image of a learned Chinese Doctor/Martial Artist, with a clip board and a long line of people. He touches one on a point, makes a note in his file, sends them to a sterile environment for observation.

Some have fairly rapid reactions which are noted, others have no reaction, but the study goes on. After five years one of the guys drops dead of heart failure. It must have been the touch to point LV1 or whatever.

How much trial and error went into developing the art? Was it intelligence that allowed them to discern patterns of consequence and action, and so map the results, or, did they just notice after awhile that when I touch here, the guy is going to die withing five years?

Often the desired result requires a combination of points to be struck. What process discovered this? Maybe it really was devine intervention.

I don't know, but I'm always careful of where I touch! :)

Regards

Neil
(with tongue firmly implanted in cheek)

[Jimmy Francoeur]

Greetings to all of you

Here my two cents about this topic (the opinion that koryu practitioners are composed of people with high education).
In my opinion this is true. Lets just begin with the practitioners of MA. I presently do a study on the MA that involve about 120 martial artists. From what I have seen, the % of people with university diploma is high and college diploma is very high. But this do not mean that it is always like that . We all know that. My questions was, when I have seen these results, why are these people have such a high education? Right now I think it's related to the place the MA are mainly practice here (canada, quebec). Quebec is made of many city without a high % of population. With the ecxeption of montreal, there is no city with the population of NY or LA. So the private dojo are less popular for economical reason. Most of the dojo are located in college or university. Often, the only way to know that there is a dojo there is to call or go the university/college or see the adds there. So the dojo are mainly composed of university students/teachers.

As for the koryu, I think it is less likely that a person will begin with a koryu. The average koryu practitioners have most certainly a backround in a Budo and have heard of koryu there. I also think that the simple fact a person will want to do research, study a bit of japanese, do a lot of reading on something like koryu is maybe do more often by people with a high education.

Before I get shot, let me just say a few things. First I am aware that my opinion contain over-generalisation and are not totally based on fact (this is why it is call an opinion). Also, i do not think that only people with high diploma have knowledge or intelligence. We all know that this is not the fact. There is people with no diploma that have a vast knowledge and are brililant. But I think there can be a relation with the fact that there is often a lot of dojo in college/university and these dojo have a high % of students and teachers, so it is probable that in certain case that the population of MA and Koryu practitioners have more education than an other activity.

p.s. My first language is not english, so I am sorry if I made some mistakes

Jimmy Francoeur

[Ron Tisdale]

Bon jour,

Your english is 100 times better than my french!
Ron Tisdale

(welcome!)