Saito Sensei's Ken no Awase

[autrelle]

if there are any knowing Iwama people reading this, would any of you be so kind as to give a decent description of the Ken no Awase? i have look on the net but to no avail...

thanks so much in advance.

truly

[M Clarke]

Hi Autrelle, Hope you're well.
I'm not a knowing Iwama practioner - but are you talking about our ki musubi no tachi? Apart from this, in my limited knowledge, I understand awase to be the primary principle of ALL aikiken.
Best regards

[Greg Jennings]

See http://www.ysaohio.com/

There are avis of the kumitachi and ken no awase.

Enjoy.

[autrelle]

the ken awase i refer to are seven specific ken exercises done with a partner that are practiced as a precursor to learning the kumitachi. they are, i believe, the "ken awase" and are quite distinct from the kumi tachi and the ki misubi no tachi.

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by autrelle
the ken awase i refer to are seven specific ken exercises done with a partner that are practiced as a precursor to learning the kumitachi. they are, i believe, the "ken awase" and are quite distinct from the kumi tachi and the ki misubi no tachi.

http://www.ysaohio.com/4thkyu.htm

Hopefully, the Migi no Awase, Hidari no Awase, Go no Awase and Shichi no Awase are part of the set that you're interested in.

[szczepan]

Originally posted by Greg Jennings


http://www.ysaohio.com/4thkyu.htm

Hopefully, the Migi no Awase, Hidari no Awase, Go no Awase and Shichi no Awase are part of the set that you're interested in.

Hi Greg,

In Migi no Awase tori cuts right or left hand of attacker?

thx

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by szczepan


Hi Greg,

In Migi no Awase tori cuts right or left hand of attacker?

thx

I'm somewhat out on a limb here, but I don't think it's so much ukedachi's right (far side, front hand) or left (near side, back hand) wrist (and not saying you implied such) but rather that uchidachi is moving to his right, closed / ukedachi's left, open side that is the point of this awase.

But in general, I'm concentrating on the wrist on the side that I'm on which would be ukedachi's left wrist. It's the same movement as in the first strike of the ki musubi no tachi if you're familiar with that or have another .avi (or whatever) to correlate with.

I think it looks a little odd on McVey Sensei's site because of the range that the ken awase are done at combined with the flattening effect of the video technology.

FWIW,

[Richard Elias]

The awase practices are extensions of the suburi done with a partner. They can be considered application exercises in preparation for learning the kumi tachi. All of the suburi are present in the kumi tachi, some of which focus on one of the suburi as the body of the form. The awase corolate somewhat to the suburi and the kumi tachi, ie: the fifth awase is the fifth suburi with a partner, and the fifth awase is one of the movements in the fifth kumi tachi.

The cuts, incidently, as a practice are directed down the center of your partner, "taking the center-line" as it were. All of the kumi tachi have a series of henka waza, each applied at different stages in the form, that often end in cuts to various specific targets, or throws. Some of these are simply other suburi slipped in at the right moment.

[szczepan]

one more thing I don't quite understand in this practice is a ma ai. It looks like tori is a foot or more from his target in the end of strike.While it may be right for a first time beginner, is it common for more advanced folks?
I've been told it is for safety reason, but if it continue for many years, it will surely develop bad habits.

IMO precision is all in weapons.If I strike a head, I have to touch a hairs( if one have any.............hehe), if I attack wrist, I touch a wrist.

thx

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey S.

This is exactly one of the problems that I hear repeatedly about aiki weapons work. The lack of combative distancing, closing the distance properly, things like that. I'd like to hear Mr. Elias's perspective on this...he sounds like his background in Iwama Aikido is extensive, and his current practise must surely provide a unique perspective.

(NOTE: I am not trying a bash aiki weapons thing...I just find the perspective of more weapon oriented arts usefull and interesting.)

Ron Tisdale

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by szczepan
one more thing I don't quite understand in this practice is a ma ai. It looks like tori is a foot or more from his target in the end of strike.While it may be right for a first time beginner, is it common for more advanced folks?
I've been told it is for safety reason, but if it continue for many years, it will surely develop bad habits.

IMO precision is all in weapons.If I strike a head, I have to touch a hairs( if one have any.............hehe), if I attack wrist, I touch a wrist.

thx

Keep in mind that the .avi is for the instruction of a fourth kyu test and that the ken awase are teaching tools as precursors to the kumitachi. I.e., crawl, walk, job, run. The entire Iwama pedagogical system is based on that measured progression. We might get bored, but we end up with good fundamentals. As a parenthetical comment, I find this to be exactly what I need in our culture of instant gratification. Patience, perserverance, dedication.

My dojo isn't exactly in the Iwama mainstream. Ok, we're far removed from it (but give me time, however), but the way we practice the awase is very slow and very deliberate. In my limited exposure to the mainstream, that's the norm.

It lets one focus on the fundamentals without worrying about an over-eager beginner on the other end putting you out of commision for a long time.

OTOH, when I practice the kumitachi (or kumijo or the 31 jo awase/kumitachi, I've heard it called both) with my Sensei, we _rock and roll_. If one of us isn't 100% in the moment, he will get hit and probably seriously injured.

It's a testament to Saito Sensei's teaching method that neither of us has had more than mild bruises during the two years that we've been practicing at that intensity.

YMMV.

[Richard Elias]

The first thing you have to understand right off the top is that Saito sensei's weapons work is not combat oriented, nor is it designed to create habits for such. It is a supplement to enhance ones taijutsu. It is not a kenjutsu system. I'm not trying to slight it at all, it's just a simple fact. Looking at it as anything else only takes away from it. Looking at it from a combatives point of view, then modifying it to fit that point of view, and you are no longer doing the same thing.
It is good for what it was designed.

In Yanagi ryu we have kenjutsu. It is distinctly different than any aiki-ken I've seen or experienced in aikido. It is not designed as a training aid, but for dispatching the opponent. Though, like aikido, much of the weapons work has empty-hand applications, the taijutsu itself is also different. In general the most noticable aspect is the distance. In Yanagi ryu things are very very close. There is always a particular target, not just the head and the hands, and always more than one cut. Unless your taking the opponents head off, there are always follow-up cuts in the event the opponent either didnt' feel the first one or you know it wasn't enough to disable him ...permanently. The aiki aspect in Yanagi ryu is also very different. Again, unlike anything I've experienced in aikido. Some of it may look similar, but how something looks (especially in Yanagi ryu) can be very deceiving.


Mr. Jennings,
Are you a student of McVey Sensei?

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by Richard Elias

Mr. Jennings,
Are you a student of McVey Sensei?

No. I'm a student of Ron Myers Sensei at Capital City Aikido in Montgomery, AL. As I said "far removed from the mainstream (meaning in the U.S.)". About 2,378 miles.

Here is our about page http://24.12.212.64/about_cca.html .

McVey Sensei is a student of Pat Hendricks Sensei. My mentor in the "in crowd" is Hans Goto Sensei of Bay Marin Aikido in San Rafael.

Anyone here going to the Memorial Day Weekend Gasshuku?

Regards,

[osco!]

I described the Seven Ken no Awase and the Ki musubi no tachi for you (also for me). Please, visit my weblog, and send me a feedback.
We practice those ones very often, and our version comes directly from videos of Saito Sensei and some answers form Hiroaki Kobayashi Sensei (Aikido Kobayashi Dojo).

http://tangoworkshops.blogspot.com/2008/04/aikido-ken-no-awase-ki-musubi-no-tachi.html

Oscar Oubel

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