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allan
2nd March 2001, 00:16
Hello,

I understand that Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu is regarded as the second oldest surviving martial ryu of Japanese origin. The style is widely discussed on koryu.com and so in both these senses I would regard it as a koryu bujutsu. On the other hand, I see references to the style as alternatively an Iaijutsu and an Iaido. My own sensei says "Iaido".

As someone who practices Muso Jikiden Eishen Ryu I am interested in reflecting upon the differing ways in which it is regarded. What do you all think?

Allan Heinemann

Brian Dunham
2nd March 2001, 00:35
MJER: Koryu or Budo? YES!!!

I think koryu budo is the perfect term to describe MJER, as well as Muso Shinden Ryu. IMHO, they are obviously not koryu bujutsu, but they are koryu. They are also obviously budo (although there are branches of MJER that call what they do 'iaijutsu').
Also, I have always felt that the term 'iaiDO' in it's correct use, applies to ZNKR Seitei Iai, or ZNIR, or any form of standardized Iai kata. I practice Muso Shinden Ryu, and I prefer to just call it IAI.

ghp
2nd March 2001, 02:32
This is a topic both Earl Hartman and I have briefly touched upon before.

Although MJER has a long history ... it appears now to be sort of "gendai" in most respects. And don't misunderstand me; I am well aware of its history -- koryu and all that. However ... the "kokoro" of MJER as practiced today seems sort of "gendai" to me.

How many practitioners receive dan ranks in MJER? Most. How many actually receive menkyo licenses? Apparently only the very few who train with a teacher who has Kongen no Maki (equivalent of menkyo kaiden).

If I'm reciting this information incorrectly, I rely on Earl and the others who are more knowledgeable to set me straight.

The current situation is a strange mixture, isn't it? MJER has been reformed over, and over, and over. I think the last time was in the 1920s when Nakayama Hakudo, Oe Masamichi, and one other leader grouped together to cull the waza down to what they considered a manageable size (so the story goes) -- then "officially" naming the style Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. (And I think it was Oe sensei ... but it could have been another famous MJER leader.) Anyway, many of the older waza (jujutsu also) were removed from the curriculum and what you see now is the leftovers. (Perhaps "leftovers" too strong a word, but you understand my meaning.)

So ... is MJER as practiced today a koryu, or is it gendai? I think that for that very small, select group, MJER is koryu; whereas, for the rest of us ... well, we are given the gendai interpretation.

What do you other lurkers think???

Regards,
Guy

Meik Skoss
2nd March 2001, 13:59
Guy, what you said... Iai, or batto if you like that word, has traditionally, always been practised as an ancillary art to kenjutsu/toho/...

Oh, and a comment regarding Nakamura's saying that you included on a post in another thread ("iaikendo tameshigiri, sansha ittai"): I wouldn't gloss "sha/mono" as "three people" -- I think it makes more sense to say "three things" or "three entities," although that almost sounds a little too precious, dunnit?

Robert Reinberger
2nd March 2001, 14:39
Mr. Power et al,

I consider MJER as Koryu, IMHO.

Of course, there are all that reformes you mentioned, and that is one reason I've started a thread concerning changes in Koryu.

Regarding Dan-I, I'm not sure if my impression has any validity: I look at them as graduations by certain organizations, in which MJER is or was taught (former Butokukai, IMAF, Nippon Kobudo Jikishinkai, Komei Juku, ZNIR, ZNKR (?), and so on, and not so much as graduations from MJER itself, however *that* meaning of "MJER itself" would be defined.

Regards,
Robert

Daniel Pokorny
2nd March 2001, 14:43
Hi Power sensei,

I have only been practicing this art a few years and for the record, I consider what I practice Iaijutsu. I'm not that much of a history buff so I find your post rather intriguing. I am wondering, exactly which "Branch of the tree" of MJER has left you with the view of being more "gendai" and what exactly is it that you consider different than that which was practiced in the past? As I don't get out much, I truly value the view of those that do so please, do not misinterpret my questions as bait for a flamer.



btw, I'm still waiting for the new series of Sokemon cards! :rolleyes:

With much respect,

Dan P. - Mongo

Tony Peters
2nd March 2001, 19:32
I've only been at it for a little over a year but these are my immpressions. Seitei is definatly gedai and barely a budo. MJER is definatly koryu, maybe not a complete art but its still koryu. The Taryu and TSKSR that I have done is definatly koryu. There is a definate differance in feel between koryu and a budo type art.

ghp
2nd March 2001, 23:19
Meik,

Thanks for your corrections re sha/mono. I don't want to sound "silly," but I purposefully chose "people" to match the "body" analogy. You are 100% correct though -- the gift of translating is not in giving the literal, but in making it read smoothly in the target language. I shall step aside and learn from you.

Dan,

The MJER I studied was definitely in the "jutsu" vein -- although my teacher (Onozaki Mitsuo [Mitsuhiro]) is not a member of any of the MJER organizations. He learned from his father who was either in the Imperial Guards Regiment -- or he was assigned as a guard at the Imperial Palace -- I never quite got the story straight. Anyway, his father -- Onozaki Yoshimoto[Mitsuhiro] -- allegedly trained under Nakayama Hakudo for a period. Anyway, if you saw his waza, you'd say he was a "bull in a china shop" type. Good, but "different" according to E.H., whose opinion I respect.

Robert,

I was just musing aloud -- maybe just to float an idea before I started to really "think" about it. Seriously though, I do consider MJER a koryu -- I mean, it is. I enjoy the waza, and they helped me understand Toyama Ryu waza better; I feel there is a strong kinship between TR and the MJER okuden tachiwaza ...(and don't believer TR was based on the Omori waza ... as all the experts -- even my teacher --say).

Regards,
Guy

hyaku
3rd March 2001, 00:00
Originally posted by Robert Reinberger
Mr. Power et al,

I consider MJER as Koryu, IMHO.

Of course, there are all that reformes you mentioned, and that is one reason I've started a thread concerning changes in Koryu.

Regarding Dan-I, I'm not sure if my impression has any validity: I look at them as graduations by certain organizations, in which MJER is or was taught (former Butokukai, IMAF, Nippon Kobudo Jikishinkai, Komei Juku, ZNIR, ZNKR (?), and so on, and not so much as graduations from MJER itself, however *that* meaning of "MJER itself" would be defined.

Regards,
Robert
..................................
ZNKR gradings are based on Seitei. Although one is expected to do a Koryu for Yondan plus, The people that are grading you have perhaps never done Ryu they are looking at when they grade you.

A rather sore point with Hachidan that perhaps hold a Shogo rank that are expected to do Seitei for Kyudan!

Leading Jikiden teachers belonging to the ZNKR will tell you there is no Dan-i system and are recently issuing awards under the Shogo system.


Hyakutake Colin

ghp
3rd March 2001, 00:42
Colin,


Leading Jikiden teachers belonging to the ZNKR will tell you there is no Dan-i system and are recently issuing awards under the Shogo system.

Wow! That's great. I just mentioned it yesterday and they've already [recently]made the corrections! :)

But seriously, I am glad to hear shogo licenses are being used.

Thanks for the good news, Colin. Oh, one other thing ... where do I send my dan-i for shogo replacement? (Just joking ... I don't have one.)

--Guy

JohnRay
3rd March 2001, 01:26
Hi folks,
Thought I'd pipe in on this one...... and pray it doesn't go on to become one of those endless threads driven by personal attacks on each other.
First and foremost, I can very well imagine my asking my seniors in Japan this question about what they do.... koryu or gendai budo? They'd suck air through the side of their mouth, cock their heads to the side, and squint their eyes. That would be followed by a giggle and a "So ka na....." This translates into, "I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about and I have no answer to give you." We do what we do. I guess there are some people who feel like everything needs to be put into its box, but, speaking from personal experience, the average
8, 9, or 10 dan that I have had the pleasure to know hasn't really given it much thought... and really isn't interested in it.
Members of my dojo felt a keen connection to the founder of the ryu, Hayasizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu of the mid-16th Century. They practice their waza very seriously, always keeping in mind the severe consequences of a lax attitude toward training, (which has been passed down from generation to generation), and an uncommon attention to the fine details of the waza. Each and every movement must give the swordsman an edge over an adversary. Training was 2 or 3 hours long, nonstop waza until you thought you couldn't hold your sword over your head. Use of shinken made this all the more exciting. There were no air conditioned or heated dojo. Chiba gets quite hot in the summer and quite cold in the winter. It was severe training.
I am equally sure that they wouldn't grasp the subtle differences between "jutsu" and "do" that we members of internet forums seem to have mastered. They view their training as martial training. It is not kenbu, but rather has at its core surviving a violent encounter with a well disciplined body and mind. As they all drive cars and work in offices, they feel comfortable with the modern term, iaido.
Ditto the rank. They are aware of the licensing system used in some other old arts, but don't feel their training has been affected one iota by the change in ranking systems.
I know we have many commentators on iaido on this list, who have brought up these issues and rendered opinions based on what seems like negligible experience in Eishin-ryu. In my years of training, I have seen all kinds of practitioners of iaido, some who seemed to have lost the core martial quality of iaido. I can well imagine that if they were my only exposure to Eishin-ryu, I too would have a misconception of the art.
I have seen much which passes as "iaido" on this side of the Pacific which is a lame copy of its essence. It is my hope that I have the sufficient experience and skill as both a swordsman and a teacher to present this essence to my students.
Sorry if this rambled on.....
John Ray

hyaku
3rd March 2001, 03:50
Originally posted by hyaku

..................................
ZNKR gradings are based on Seitei. Although one is expected to do a Koryu for Yondan plus, The people that are grading you have perhaps never done Ryu they are looking at when they grade you.

A rather sore point with Hachidan that perhaps hold a Shogo rank that are expected to do Seitei for Kyudan!

Leading Jikiden teachers belonging to the ZNKR will tell you there is no Dan-i system and are recently issuing awards under the Shogo system.


Hyakutake Colin


Whoops I should re-word that! Muso Jikiden teachers......not the ZNKR

CH

ghp
3rd March 2001, 08:58
Colin,

I knew that you meant MJER teachers.

John,


many commentators on iaido on this list, who have brought up these issues and rendered opinions based on what seems like negligible experience in Eishin-ryu.

Well, with only 3 years direct training in MJER, I certainly think your comment applies to me -- no doubt about it. Additionally, I haven't practiced the waza in about four years, so I'm very rusty in both waza and history. I do thank you for your opinion and comments and have learned a valuable lesson.

I agree, also, that some of us (me in particular) are pretty "urusaii" about "kankeinai mono" [noisy about things that don't matter]. Thanks for splashing the cold water on my face.

I don't think you have to worry about this thread degenerting into a flame-fest. You and Collin are vastly qualified to offer substantive opinion -- and I'm just thinking out loud with no agenda.

Regards,
Guy

Earl Hartman
5th March 2001, 22:45
This gets back into the whole "what is Koryu?" thing. Is it what you do or how you do it?

MJER, if passed down according to the old method via the Kongen no Maki, must certainly be considered a koryu, even if one is of the opinion that it has degenerated and is a shadow of its former self. It is still a koryu, however, in that it was founded during the proper time period and has a verifiable lineage.

Oe Masamichi S., as the inheritor of the school, had the right to reform it in any way he saw fit. His position entitled him to this. A cursory glance at the history of any koryu will show the same evolution. The question might be whether the reform took place too long after the supposed correct period of time to qualify. Other things I have read indicate that teachers after Oe S., for example Kono Hyakuren S., also introduced changes. I can't remember, but I think the Bangai no Bu practiced by the ZNIR is either from Oe S. or Kono S. Masaoka S.'s book does not mention it, however.

Based on my reading, I don't think that Oe S. and Nakayama S. had much of a relationship. Oe S. did rearrange the curriculum of the Tanimura-ha extensively, from what I have read. Nakayama S. learned Eishin Ryu Shimomura-ha from the 15th inheritor of that line (I think; name escapes me) and re-introduced it as Muso Shinden Ryu. However, according to Masaoka S.'s book, the Shinden Ryu densho had existed for a number of generations prior to Nakayama S.

Setei must clearly be considered gendai, though. They were developed specifically to train kendo practioners how to handle a real sword, and were, so far as I know, never intended for anything else. Masaoka S. was heavily involved in this process, although he resisted it for a number of years.

Robert Reinberger
5th March 2001, 23:59
Originally posted by Earl Hartman: Other things I have read indicate that teachers after Oe S., for example Kono Hyakuren S., also introduced changes. I can't remember, but I think the Bangai no Bu practiced by the ZNIR is either from Oe S. or Kono S. Masaoka S.'s book does not mention it, however. Mr. Hartman,

as I've learnt at an earlier thread, Bangai was introduced by Oe Sensei. Batto Ho was the invention of Kono Sensei. Regarding Hayanuki it remained unclear who of the two invented it.

Regards,
Robert

Earl Hartman
6th March 2001, 00:52
Robert:

It must have been Oe S. who invented the hayanuki (I assume you are referring to the rapid execution of different waza strung together without a break). Masaoka S. did this, and he learned from Oe. S.

If Bangai no Bu was introduced by Oe S., I wonder why Masaoka S. did not discuss it in his book, since he was Oe S.'s direct student. Do you know when he formulated it?

Robert Reinberger
6th March 2001, 08:56
Originally posted by Earl Hartman: If Bangai no Bu was introduced by Oe S., I wonder why Masaoka S. did not discuss it in his book, since he was Oe S.'s direct student. Do you know when he formulated it?Mr. Hartman,
Mr. Hyakutake-Watkin and Mr. Scott Irey provided the information regarding the introduction of Bangai by Oe Masamichi Sensei, in the thread I mentioned earlier.

As Bangai is taught in the line leading to Ikeda Takeshi Sensei, as well as by Iwata Norikazu Sensei, I assume it's very likely that the set was developed by Oe Sensei. However, there could be a slight possibility that it comes from Hogiyama Namio Sensei or Fukui Harumasa Sensei; but if Bangai were introduced as late as by Kono Hyakuren Sensei, I doubt that it would be practiced in Iwata Sensei's Roshukai, as Iwata Sensei learned from Kono Sensei's seniors.

I have no idea why Bangai is not mentioned in Masaoka Sensei's book. Perhaps he didn't consider it being a part of MJER, or it was really one of the two later teachers I mentioned, who introduced that forms.

Regards,
Robert

Arne Oster
6th March 2001, 10:12
Hi,
There are also a few different versions of the Bangai
set (which are not kata in the strictest sense anyway).
Regards
Arne