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HitokiriBattousai
2nd March 2001, 06:43
I guess I'm addressing anyone who studies Shinkendo, Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu, or any other traditional schools that don't have matches like kendo. How would you personally feel like you would fare against a kendoka? This thought just occured to me tonight. Kendo is primarily a sport that pits two people against each other. I also realize prearranged forms in traditional schools can be pretty rigorous too (like Nathan chasing around Yoko Obata in that news clip!). I'm sure I'm leaving holes here and there. I guess I should think these out more when it's not so late (1:48 AM here in Savannah). Well, I'll look forward to your responses, especially from Nathan or Guy. Thanks! :smilejapa

ghp
2nd March 2001, 07:02
I think I'd do quite well, thank you. I also studied kendo ... that's why.

Nakamura sensei has a saying:

http://rudy.bay-ad.com/~guypower/kenshinkan/clg/sansha_ittai.jpg

"Iai Kendo Tameshigiri
San Sha Ittai"

[Iai, kendo, test cutting
three people, one body]

Or, "The unity of iai, kendo, and test cutting."

Each art has valuable lessons to provide in order to make a well-rounded swordsman.

Iai, by itself, is not advisable because while you can handle a sword, you can't necessarily cut, or react against an unwilling opponent.

Kendo, by itself, is not advisable because while you can react against an unwilling opponent -- you won't necessarily understand proper sword handling techniques learned through iai -- and you won't necessarily be able to cut decisively with proper blade angle-of-attack.

Tameshigiri, by itself, is not advisable because -- although you will be able to cut, and will (hopefully) understand proper grip and angle-of-attack, you won't have the strategic knowledge that kendo imparts.

A combination of all three arts/techniques is best; two out of three might be fine; but a single art only will leave lots of room for improvement.

Of course, it's better to learn only one art ... than none. And if you have only one to learn .... don't let it be tameshigiri. Tameshigiri is merely a tool ... after all, its name says it all: it is a "test."

Regards (leaving plenty of room for dissenting opinion),
Guy

HitokiriBattousai
2nd March 2001, 07:47
Thanks, I didn't expect such a quick response. I guess that's why I was asking yours and Mr. Scott's opinions, since Shinkendo and Nakamura Ryu includes tameshigiri, suburi, drawing and cutting, and tachiuchi. I guess that's also why I have read many sensei saying iaido helps kendo and kendo helps iaido. Looking forward to other responses, thanks!

hyaku
2nd March 2001, 14:33
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HitokiriBattousai
[B]I guess I'm addressing anyone who studies Shinkendo, Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu, or any other traditional schools that don't have matches like kendo. How would you personally feel like you would fare against a kendoka? This thought just occured to me tonight. Kendo is primarily a sport that pits two people against each other....

........................
If you are suggesting technique against technique its not going to work is it. When I do Kendo I deliberatley strike or thrust to protected areas. When I do batto or kenjutsu I make cuts or thrusts to the unprotected areas.

With a fair amount of experience it is possible to experiment a little without getting injured.

I think Kendo helping Iaido visa versa has always been a general comment made by Seitei people.

Hyakutake Colin

Earl Hartman
6th March 2001, 19:57
It seems to me that if we assume armored combat, kendo technique would be completely useless. If we assume suhada kenpo, or unarmored combat, I think that the kendo strikes to areas normally protected by armor (wrist, head, and side) would work, if done correctly. It wouldn't take much of a strike to disable an unarmored man by cutting his wrist, for example.

However, most kendo people train exclusively with shinai for the purpose of getting points in a match governed by rules. Thus, a lot of kendoka, even some good ones, and especially younger people who know kendo only as a sport, are incredibly sloppy about: 1) presentation of edge to target for proper cutting (hasuji), 2) striking with the intention of cutting as opposed to "slapping" with the shinai (kirikomi), and 3) taking care to avoid letting the opponent make contact with "off-limit", or non-target areas.

This last is most important, I think. Since kendo target areas are so specifically defined, a kendoka can ignore any strikes that do not land on these areas. This feeling of being "safe" causes the kendoka to make decisions, perfectly acceptable in a kendo match, that would mean instant death if real swords were being used. Apropos to this, I was once sparring with a guy who constantly "slipped" my men strikes like a boxer, moving his head out of the way at the last second so that I would miss the top of his head and my shinai would hit him at the junction of the neck and shoulder instead. Since this area is not a kendo point, he ignored it. I got really pissed, so the next time he did it, I simply followed through decisively with my strike, striking him a good solid blow right at the base of his neck, POW! He got all bent out of shape and started spluttering "Hey! You can't do that!" Well, with a real sword he would have been killed instantly. A similar thing happened to me thusly: I was fencing with a man who, after closing to tsuba-zeriai, liked to strike quickly off of the break. To prevent this, I would simply press my shinai down on his wrist, controlling him as we backed away from each other, so that he could not strike me. Simple, right? Well, after a while, he got really angry and started lecturing me about how that was "against the rules". Well, OK, whatever. It was like he was expecting me to open myself up for an attack, and was pissed that I wasn't cooperating. Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me.

However, the one good thing that kendo can teach, if you train properly, is speed, reaction, and decisiveness in a chaotic situation. This is something difficult to teach without some kind of sparring. You must do it with the correct attitude, however, which is difficult.

Nathan Scott
6th March 2001, 21:49
Hello Mr. Nguyen,

Technically, a match between Shinkendo and Kendo cannot be conducted fairly.

This is because, if I had my way (as a student of Shinkendo), I would perform best using live blades and in a situation in which the match was completely unrestricted - either armored or unarmored (gusoku, not bogu). A Kendo-ka would more than likely prefer to require the use of shinai, bogu and restrict the target areas (at least) to those above the waist, if not the Kendo points specifically.

Even though Shinkendo and Kendo may sound similar, and are both derived from traditional swordsmanship, they are taught with completely different techniques, fundamentals, tactics, priorities, psychology and purpose. It would be like me trying to beat a professional boxer using boxing techniques (coming from primarily a Jujutsu type base), or a karate-ka trying to out grapple a Gracie. You would either have to concede heavily on one side, or try to beat the other person at their own game. In other words, they are different enough arts that any attempt at a fair match would not be possible.

However, if you are referring to the more surface similarities, such as a friendly or non-combative sparring session using restricted targets and perhaps bokuto (kind of in the middle for both of us), that is a bit different. You would of course also need to have two exponents of comparable skill level in their art as well.

My observation of Kendo is that it is primarily competitve in nature these days (practice focused on the attainment of points). Most (not all) Kendo-ka I know, have met, or seen on video demonstrating Kendo soutai kata have displayed very very little practical knowledge or skills using a bokken, let alone a shinken. While I have reservations about the fundamentals taught in modern Kendo in regards to kenjutsu fundamentals, there are several aspects of Kendo I believe a sword student can benefit from:

1) forging of strong spirit and kiai
2) speed (efficiency and coordination of taisabaki, ashisabaki and kensabaki)
3) Identification and exploitation of suki (defensive openings)
4) basic sparring tactics
5) development of uninhibited (free) attacks and reactions gained from continued exposure to kakarigeiko, jigeiko and shiaigeiko.


Shinkendo is a comprehensive, well considered sword art.

There are armored and unarmored waza, study of suburi, kamae, batto-ho, kata (tanrengata), tachiuchi, tameshigiri, tactics, history, etiquette and manner, sword handling and manner, philosophy, etc in the curriculum. The tachiuchi section are pre-arranged paired sparring forms, similar to those practiced by koryu.

There is a "standard curriculum" in Shinkendo, but they represent only the core ideas - there are endless variations of just about every form. Both left and right stances are used, all eight fundamenatal cuts are applied to four main swinging patterns (furidome, kaeshi, makuri and nagashi). These cuts and patterns either exist formally or can be applied as variations to most of the standard forms, as well as including all such variatins in any direction or combination of directions.

The tachiuchi is pre-arranged, but in progressively advanced levels the student is asked to add increasing random strikes and responses to any given tachiuchi (nidan waza, sandan waza, yondan waza etc.) This equates to "limited freestyle", and must be carefully monitored by a qualified, experienced instructor since solid bokuto is typically used, and armor or other protection is typically not. The student who progresses through the five main areas of technical study (suburi, tanrengata, batto-ho, tachiuchi & tameshigiri) should eventually be able to merge all the methods and principles into basically a single, effective, free form of swordmanship at the art's highest levels. This does, of course, take many years of very hard training under a qualified instructor.

Some might be tempted to critisize this time consuming and exhaustive approach as being too long a process, however, our art has a worldwide federation with 49 branches currently, yet maintains a remarkable safety record.

So perhaps you can now see a bit more of the differences in approach and focus between an art like Shinkendo and an art like Kendo.

FWIW, I have had friendly sparring sessions with various Kendo-ka using both Shinkendo technique, and armored (bogu) using Naginata. When using either sword or naginata, I did not find myself feeling overwhelmed by my opponent. In fact, my observation was that the Kendo-ka were quite unaccustomed to circling movements, techniques to non-Kendo point areas, many combative tactics, varying distance (especially with Naginata), timing and kamae. Unfortunately, I have no idea how our levels of experience compare in our respective arts, so it is probably not fair to put too much weight in these experiences (I do remember that one Kendo-ka that I paired with in jigeiko [using naginata] was a godan level instructor though).

Also, the modern Kendo that I've seen seems to focus tactically alot on what we call "kyo-jitsu" (fake-real), which is effective but somewhat limited when used almost exclusively.

Anyway, I hope I've answered your question from the Shinkendo/Kendo perspective at least. In summary, they really cannot be matched fairly (for either side), but if you tried to find a middle ground, it would seem the Shinkendo-ka might excel in regards to realistic swordplay given an equally skilled match.

As a disclaimer, I should mention that Shinkendo is not simply a war-like combat art. The information above relates to the technical side of Shinkendo only, which is what is being considered here. Obata Kaiso emphasizes philosophy and the idea of using Shinkendo (or Budo for that matter) as a vehicle for improving one's life and society as a whole.

Also,

Please don't take this post as a slight against Kendo! I respect Kendo for what it is, and as noted above, acknowledge at least five valuable areas of study that apply to comabative JSA. Not having studied Kendo, I am really not in a position to comment extensively about the Kendo side of things, and as such have primarily offered commentary on what I do have experience in.

Hope this helps!

hyaku
6th March 2001, 22:49
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Earl Hartman

However, most kendo people train exclusively with shinai for the purpose of getting points in a match governed by rules. Thus, a lot of kendoka, even some good ones, and especially younger people who know kendo only as a sport, are incredibly sloppy about: 1) presentation of edge to target for proper cutting (hasuji), 2) striking with the intention of cutting as opposed to "slapping" with the shinai (kirikomi), and 3) taking care to avoid letting the opponent make contact with "off-limit", or non-target areas.
...........

I agree with Earl

This is why ZNKR started Seitei didn't they. In principle a good idea.

In Japan the Kendo population had decreased. Now its on the way up again and the rise is female.

Might be worth mentioning that there are differences between Iaido people that do Kendo. Not that there are many of them. Both facets are far too time consuming to do both.

Iai people tend to as you say cut not strike firmly down to suigetsu. However they are far less mobile. Standing/sitting still on the spot after a cut or to turn in another direction is far different to following through on one opponent.

Be it kakari keiko or tameshigiri hundreds of thousands of repetitive actions are habit forming. It is after we see or feel the target that this automatic response takes over.

I think we have to look at why these parts of swordsmanship became seperate entities to answer this question.

The use of a real sword in practice causes injury to people mostly teachers so let's use bokuto.

The use of a bokuto does not work because one gets into a habit of stopping short of the target. use a shinai.

Now we are comparing shinai with swords?

Hyakutake Colin

HitokiriBattousai
6th March 2001, 22:52
Many thanks to your insight on the matter, Mr. Hartman and Mr. Scott! This came up due to my experience with fighting kendoka, and other people using "scrapper"-type technique with a katana. All of them were very linear, and used the "slapping" cut more than the realistic cut. This both distressed and agitated me, for I know how a katana cuts, etc. But I also realized I had a long way to go. For a short while I studied kendo, but as I expected, it left a lot to be desired for me personally. I do agree that the speed, footwork, distance, and reactions of kendo can be very useful. As I have progressed over the last 3 years, I have found many of the problems I had with kendoka and scrappers almost gone, with the exception that some of the kendoka I have had friendly matches with were just good and have done it for a long time. Using circling, shifting, and evasions, along with the cuts I knew were correct, I did much better than I did originally. I also have had many of my ex sparring partners get angry and refuse to fight me because I refused to conform to kendo traget areas :laugh: But that aside, I wanted other people's personal experience with that.

Oh, I have the Shinkendo book, along with Crimson Steel, Mr. Scott. I hope to meet yourself and Obata Kaiso one day.

Thanks again! :smilejapa

Nathan Scott
6th March 2001, 23:08
Hi Colin-san,

Mind if I email you regarding Kyushu? :)


The use of a real sword in practice causes injury to people mostly teachers so let's use bokuto."


"The use of a bokuto does not work because one gets into a habit of stopping short of the target. use a shinai."

"Now we are comparing shinai with swords?"

This is exactly why we haven't formalized jiyuwaza type practice in Shinkendo yet. The weapons either become too soft, or the armor becomes too expensive and impeding.

I personally find controlled unarmored sparring using fukuro shinai useful, but like bogu and shinai, it's not the perfect representation of a shinken (by a long shot!), or the perfect solution.

Only work arounds.


Oh, I have the Shinkendo book, along with Crimson Steel, Mr. Scott. I hope to meet yourself and Obata Kaiso one day.

Good to hear! In spite of the fact that we don't have professional writers on staff here, the Shinkendo book has been warmly received - especially by those in our group. The older books are good too, but increasingly hard to find.

I'll look forward to meeting you sometime,

FastEd
7th March 2001, 07:29
Originally posted by Nathan Scott


Not having studied Kendo, I am really not in a position to comment extensively about the Kendo side of things, and as such have primarily offered commentary on what I do have experience in.



I don't mean to be antagonistic Nathan, but I can't help but notice that for "having not studied kendo" and "not really being in a position to comment extensively on it" you certianly seem to be. :confused:

Blues
7th March 2001, 10:11
FastEd wrote:
I don't mean to be antagonistic [...]

Well, you certainly seem to be... :D

Interesting discussion, though it seems to me a little like asking badminton players how they think they would fare against tennis players...I guess tennis players would win the tennis match and badminton players would win the badminton match. Who would win the tabletennis match is a different story, though. :)

Nathan Scott
7th March 2001, 18:23
Mr. Chart,


I don't mean to be antagonistic Nathan, but I can't help but notice that for "having not studied kendo" and "not really being in a position to comment extensively on it" you certianly seem to be.

Maybe I should have worded that paragraph more carefully.

I was trying to clarify that I have not formally studied Kendo, so did not opt to go any more deeply into the Kendo side of the equation outside of my personal observations and analysis of swordsmanship principles as compared to that of Kendo, as judged from my experience and research in swordsmanship.

This was intended as a polite disclaimer, so that people wouldn't object saying "how come 3/4 of your post was about how great Shinkendo was, and only 1/4 was about Kendo". My post was weighted towards those things I have direct knowledge and/or experience in, and my comments on Kendo were prefaced by the disclaimer "my observations". Someone with qualifications in Kendo would be the best person to go deeper into the Kendo side of the question.

While I don't have formal experience in Kendo, I do have at least a passing knowledge of the methods and techniques, and have seen many practices, shiai and enbu both in America and Japan. Additionally, I've had discussions with several higher ranking Kendo-ka about the observations I posted here (to which they concurred) over the years. So that's where I'm coming from in regards to Kendo, just so there's no mistake.

In any event, I assume you object to some of the generalizations I made about Kendo, so if you have formal experience in Kendo and disagree with the previous observations, I'd love to hear your views.

Regards,

MarkF
8th March 2001, 07:19
Originally posted by Earl Hartman


This last is most important, I think. Since kendo target areas are so specifically defined, a kendoka can ignore any strikes that do not land on these areas. This feeling of being "safe" causes the kendoka to make decisions, perfectly acceptable in a kendo match, that would mean instant death if real swords were being used. Apropos to this, I was once sparring with a guy who constantly "slipped" my men strikes like a boxer, moving his head out of the way at the last second so that I would miss the top of his head and my shinai would hit him at the junction of the neck and shoulder instead. Since this area is not a kendo point, he ignored it. I got really pissed, so the next time he did it, I simply followed through decisively with my strike, striking him a good solid blow right at the base of his neck, POW! He got all bent out of shape and started spluttering "Hey! You can't do that!" Well, with a real sword he would have been killed instantly. A similar thing happened to me thusly: I was fencing with a man who, after closing to tsuba-zeriai, liked to strike quickly off of the break. To prevent this, I would simply press my shinai down on his wrist, controlling him as we backed away from each other, so that he could not strike me. Simple, right? Well, after a while, he got really angry and started lecturing me about how that was "against the rules". Well, OK, whatever. It was like he was expecting me to open myself up for an attack, and was pissed that I wasn't cooperating. Well, excuuuuuuuuuse me.



Well, I have absolutely no experience whatsoever in Kendo or any sword art, but I do have an opinion, or perhaps a thought, to the quote above from Earl.

One thing which is not so different in any art, and any type of competition, be it koryu or kendo, etc., is most expect you to play to win, and if that isn't possible, the one who thinks he should win in that case, is troubled by anyone playing to a draw, IE, not to lose. Seems to be a common error made by the more senior or more talented "player." IOW, it drives them crazy when in a "I may not win, but he is going to have to beat me well to win."

In some eighteen years of competition, I have learned a lesson or two, so when I was faced with someone who previously would dispatch me with ease, I found playing to a draw to be more than the opponent can stand. Certainly, it isn't this way with everyone as patience is a learned response, but every now and then, one may best the better one, just by not going after the score/win, etc.
*****

Assumptions are also made that someone not of the activity discussed, doesn't have the ability to comment on the subject at hand, and to a logical point, that is true, but when faced with a situation which is so familiar in, say, a competitive activity not having to do with the sword, shinai, etc., one may indeed have a comment which fits nicely.

That said, you may continue the discussion and forget my comments immediately.:D

FastEd
9th March 2001, 08:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott

In any event, I assume you object to some of the generalizations I made about Kendo, so if you have formal experience in Kendo and disagree with the previous observations, I'd love to hear your views.
Regards,

Hi Mr. Scott, (First off: I did not mean to come off being nasty in my first response, just confused by your final disclaimer, which I thought needed more clarification, which you have provided)

I do have a couple of problems we can discuss: :beer:

1) The first problem I have with your original post is with the structure of the basic comparison. When you talk about "kendo" you are only refering to one art practiced under the umbrella of a National Kendo Federation body. There are in fact three arts that are recognized under the ZNKR, the other two being iaido and jodo. (Shinkendo I take it does not have these divisions)

2) This leads into my second problem, that is, you assume kendo, as it is taught within the national federations, exists in a vaccum. Fortunately, for a growing number of federations, this is not the case. Iaido and jodo are becoming more popular within these federations, and thus kendoka have the ability to branch out and explore other aspects of swordsmanship that they may find lacking in kendo. Now, say what you will about Seitei, the fact remains that it opens the door to a wealth of information on the sword for the average kendoka and will improve their skill, this being based on having listen to and read comments made by several 7-8 dans to that effect.

In summery: On the surface it many not appear to be a nice neat integrated package like shinkendo, but don't assume that other aspects of swordsmanship are not part of the regular experence of learning within the kendo federation.

Nathan Scott
9th March 2001, 18:17
Hello Mr. Chart,

When discussing Kendo in this thread, I am referring to (as I wrote) "modern Kendo". Kendo, as I've seen in books and in dojo's, is the competitive sport derived from Japanese Swordsmanship. I've never heard or read of Iaido and Jodo being a part of Kendo, though I have heard of Iaido and Jodo being formalized and taught under the umbrella of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei/International Kendo Federation.

While many Kendo-ka study Iaido, and some Jodo, I read the original question as a hypothetical comparison of specific sword arts (not multi-art Federations). To inlcude unknown variables to the equation like "the Kendo guy might practice Iaido and Jodo" negates the point of the hypothetical comparison. If we look at specific people, it will become a case of anyone's guess. Over the years, I have gained varying amounts of experience with Jo, Bo, Tanto, Aikido, Shuriken, Jujutsu, Naginata, Judo, Kung-Fu, Shinkendo and Toyama ryu battojutsu. Do all Shinkendo-ka share this diversity? No. Some come from Karate backgrounds, for instance, so their interpretation of Shinkendo will surely be influenced by their previous experience in different ways than how my interpretation has been influenced.

What about body types?Approaches to sparring and tactics favored? Size, reach and flexibility?

The point being, if we move away from a simple, hypothetical sterilized comparison, we then introduce so many unknowns that it becomes impossible to engage in any kind of reasonable discussion. So generalizations are favored (as I stated in my first post), and it would seem that the majority of Kendo-ka do not also study Iaido and Jodo, and in fact, tend to only practice the seitei kata just prior to ranking tests. As a result, the performance of seitei kata that I've seen demonstrated has been somewhat underwhelming, frankly. Not because there is anything wrong with Kendo seitei kata (a valuable, though limited, education), but because the performers that I've seen have lacked sharp movement lines, confident blade control, good timing, and reasonable skills at iai and noto. These aspects are universal to JSA.

I don't believe I've made any assumptions thus far, only observations and evaluations.

My comments aren't intended to be offensive, and as I've posted twice before, if there are senior exponents of Kendo that wish to contribute, I would welcome them with open KOTE-MEN. I'd welcome the opportunity to learn more about Kendo from them.

It just doesn't pay to be polite these days!

:D

FastEd
10th March 2001, 02:36
[b]