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Kit LeBlanc
3rd March 2001, 19:44
I wonder,

Should this forum name include Brazilian Jujutsu, or Judo and Related Arts to include BJJ and other cognate (ha, got to use it in a sentence) modern jujutsu methods (a la Danzan Ryu)?

I don't mean submission grappling, I mean "traditional" Brazilian JJ done in gi.

Or, does concensus see BJJ as merely Judo focussed more on the ground?

With a large pail of water to douse the flames,

Kit Leblanc

Ruairi Quinn
3rd March 2001, 22:00
Hi Kit-

Do BJJ guys regard themselves as being part of a Japanese gendai jujutsu tradition, or do they identify themselves almost entirely with the history of the art's arrival in Brazil onwards?

From looking at some articles, like those found at bjj.org, it looks to me like they would regard any association with 'traditional jujutsu' and its trappings as backsliding towards 'inefficiency'.

Also- while I understand that BJJ has an 'ethos', is it close to or the same thing as 'Budo'?

(But all of that aside, I think it's always interesting to hear views from people doing different arts. I know that there's plenty of BJJ guys hanging around other boards, but they seem to avoid e-budo)

MarkF
4th March 2001, 08:21
Kit has a point, but this all depends on how far you want to go with gendai, such as the one now in Ninpo. Also, there is much debate over whether judo is budo. I think, though, that the point has all ready been resolved by calling BJJ "Brazilian." Submission grappling has a more final result as that (submission) is the goal. With judo, the goal is symbolic victory.

Now, all that said, I've never had a problem with anyone who wishes to discuss jujutsu, BJJ, submission grappling, or judo, the martial art.

Most of this originated with koryu jujutsu and then Kano jiujitsu, or judo. We could change the description as Kit suggests to include all Japanese, or Japanese bugei based sports/martial arts (if you notice, the description is fairly broad already to include sport and the art of judo).

I can bring that up in the Admin forum and see who thinks it should be opened up a bit.
*****

I don't think there are more or less BJJ or other type grapplers her percentage-wise. There are only a small number of judoka who post anyway, but it could change with some rewording.

BTW: Originally, there was a gendai jujitsu forum besides the one is koryu and the judo forum. Danzan ryu seemed to be a feature gendai MA, so by including them as Kit described may bring in more posters. I don't recall the amount of judo here, or gendai jujutsu changing it too much, but it couldn't hurt.

Mark

Kit LeBlanc
4th March 2001, 15:39
Ruairi and Mark,

Well, my comment is based more on the relationship in terms of roots. Let me say that I do traditional Japanese grappling as well as BJJ, but BJJ was what led me to an interest in Japanese grappling.

I think most BJJ players are ignorant of BJJ's history and development, or just don't care, as they are primarily interested in getting on the mat. I have trained with both BJJ people and Judo people focussing on groundwork, so my opinions developed along different lines I guess.

I have heard some Brazilian instructors downplay the Japanese element "Why talk about a guy who lived in Japan X-hundred years ago when you can concentrate on doing jujutsu today," I have heard others offer a lot of respect for the Japanese roots. While the Brazilians generally give full credit to Maeda, I think there is an assumption amongst BJJ practitioners that the Brazilians do Judo/jujutsu in some way differently. I thought this myself until I started looking into Judo roots, and found out about Kosen Judo, the old style Judo/jujutsu competitions in Meiji Japan, etc.

After watching the Budokan videos on Kosen Judo, and seeing what is in fact Brazilian jujutsu (actually the other way around) being done, I realized that really BJJ is a return to Kosen Judo in many ways. Kimura Masahiko, on defeating Helio Gracie, said something to the effect that what Gracie was doing was "old style" Judo.

As far as an ethos, BJJ most certainly has one outside of competition and self defense, and I think it is in line with "budo" principles, so long as you see Judo as budo. If Judo is not budo, then no.

But you have to be careful to separate submission grappling and heavy competition-oriented groups from the underlying ethos. Read Rickson Gracie's interviews, read the piece on BJJ in Aikido Journal (I think it's on the website), and I think the overall philosophy and approach that BJJ embraces will come out.

This suggestion was just a thought. Danzan-ryu probably embraces more of a classical approach, BJJ has definitive roots in Judo, etc. But now that I think of it, it might be better to simply post BJJ related threads in Judo and Danzan-ryu in Jujutsu, since a new forum might lead to "Bushi Samurai-ryu bujutsu jujutsu kempo" styles being involved.

Kit

MarkF
5th March 2001, 08:56
I think the old gendai jujutsu forum was moderated by George Arrington. Kodenkan (danzan ryu) has a heavy judo influence, though distinctly different than modern competition judo.

Kit,
Thanks for the explanation. Since you and another sometimes post here who have done or do similar arts, I thought asking would at least give an idea to possibly changing what judo encompasses to include traditional Japanese grappling. It isn't that much of a jump as you said (concerning kosen judo in particular).

Obviously, the forum doesn't need competition so that really wasn't a consideration. A lot of the technical questions raised here consider ne waza (eg, Jody Holeton's topic post).

Anyway, it is nice to know some have an opinion one way or another.

Mark

MarkF
5th March 2001, 09:05
BTW: As to whether judo is budo depends much on who is giving the opinion and whether anything modern of the gendai taijutsu can truly be budo. Frankly, the argument between budo and bujutsu hasn't been resolved (it has to me, but many do not agree), so barring open competition and the rule-heavy modern shiai, it is an easy answer.
*****

As in Basketball, the last great decade of Olympic judo was in the 1980s. Hopefully, it can return to that standard.;)

Stephenjudoka
16th March 2001, 13:06
I have read with interest the dicussion concerning allowing other Budo arts on the Judo site.

Today Judo is an Olympic sport and many practioners treat it purely as a sport. Many do not even know the roots of Judo or the philosophy that Kano included in his teachings.

I have been playing Judo for over 30 years I started purely from the sport side of it. However over the years I have become more and more interested in other Budo arts and philosophy.

I would welcome other grappling/wrestling styles on the site. Most grappling arts/sports use the same techniques only the philosophy is different.

Stephen Sweetlove

MarkF
17th March 2001, 09:02
Hi, Stephen,
I don't mind opening it up a little, but this is also a "Japanese Martial Arts and Culture" forum, so if a subthread of, say grappling were to open, it would necessarily have to err to Japanese budo, or koryu grappling, as Kit spoke of.

As to Western Grappling/martial arts, David Cvet is penciled in for a spotlight on Western Martial arts, but this right now is a one-time thing.

I'm really not all that interested in Gracie JJ or Machado JJ, or even Brazilian jiujitsu unless it comes in as a thread in this forum, or the proposed one specific to grappling. I really don't want NHB or UFC coming in. While most do consider judo to be a sport, there still is the issue of it as a Japanese MA/sport.

Funny how tastes change when one ages and grows a step too slow to keep up in shiai, or when nagging injuries make ukemi a little uncomfortable. While I didn't even think of judo, the sport when I started in 1963, I did end up on the shiai circuit in California for nearly twenty years.

Now that I'm in a "manana" town and state, the bugei of judo also has kept my interest alive.
******

BTW: Welcome to the Judo forum and E-budo.com:wave:

Mark

BTW: While judo was never meant to be a game, and was not even considered for the proposed Olympic Games in 1940s Japan, it is "sport-ing" and can be whichever you want it to be. There has been a slow, methodical return to traditional judo as of late, but the sporting element is here to stay. Donn Draeger said "judo is so far outside the circle of budo" etc., but it doesn't have to be.

So the question of judo as budo is probably more a personal choice than an exact science. Both are there if the interest is, too.

There is also a move on right now for aikido shiai contests, and I don't think anyone can stop it. Since it has an example to follow or, particularly not to follow, it will be, like it or not.

Ben Reinhardt
20th March 2001, 20:20
There is also a move on right now for aikido shiai contests, and I don't think anyone can stop it. Since it has an example to follow or, particularly not to follow, it will be, like it or not. (wrote MarkF)

+++Ben R+++
I thought Tomiki Ryu Aikido already has competitions, and has for a long time. They have randori, I know that for a fact.

I guess if they can have a 'Yoga Olympics' (no kidding !", they can have shiai for Aikido.

Danzan Ryu has shiai too if I'm not mistaken.

Ben Reinhardt

Ben Reinhardt
20th March 2001, 20:26
Mark F. wrote:
As in Basketball, the last great decade of Olympic judo was in the 1980s. Hopefully, it can return to that standard.

+++Ben R.++
Hi Mark,

I'm a little puzzled by this statement. Would you please elaborate ? The 1980 games were in Moscow, and many countries boycotted it. In 1984, the USSR boycotted the Los Angeles games. Each era has produced it's great Judoka, including the current one (think Koga, K. Inoue, Shinohara, etc.).

I saw some pretty spectactular Judo on the 99 World Championships tape and the 2000 Sidney Olympics tapes (I just got the Olympic tapes...they are fantastic).

Ben Reinhardt

Kit LeBlanc
20th March 2001, 21:46
Guys,

I was thinking more along the lines of modern grappling arts related to Judo. Thus, BJJ (which comes from Judo). Though I guess an argument could be made for Shooto (Judo/wrestling/Muay Thai mix) etc. if we are going in the direction of sports.

What about Sumo? Does it go in gendai budo or koryu?

If the problem is going too far off into the sport aspect, maybe it can be focussed on arts which have demonstrated more than the sports aspect. Judo is far more than the sport. Anyone who has really listened to BJJ practitioners will understand that there is far more to it than the sport jujutsu/submission grappling/NHB element, which is of course by far the most popular.

Kit LeBlanc

Ben Reinhardt
20th March 2001, 21:54
Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
Guys,

I was thinking more along the lines of modern grappling arts related to Judo. Thus, BJJ (which comes from Judo). Though I guess an argument could be made for Shooto (Judo/wrestling/Muay Thai mix) etc. if we are going in the direction of sports.

What about Sumo? Does it go in gendai budo or koryu?

If the problem is going too far off into the sport aspect, maybe it can be focussed on arts which have demonstrated more than the sports aspect. Judo is far more than the sport. Anyone who has really listened to BJJ practitioners will understand that there is far more to it than the sport jujutsu/submission grappling/NHB element, which is of course by far the most popular.

Kit LeBlanc

I'd like to keep Judo for Judo. People can bring up BJJ/GJJ stuff, no problem. Going too far from Judo, though, and it will become another Underground.

Ben Reinhardt

MarkF
21st March 2001, 10:05
Ben,
Only Shodokan ryu Aikido (Tomiki style) has shiai including tanto shiai, but these contests are small, and most Tomiki stylists don't like the shiai aspect. Tomiki does have randori, both very similar to judo. They are not practiced much outside the dojo, and possibly at yearly seminar/taikai, etc. I was referring mainly to a thread in the Aikido forum which had some rather "put out" over the suggestion of "Sporting contest" Aikido which raised the hackles of many. Read it if you have a chance. Even in the late sixties, when I was playing judo in NYC, the Tomiki aikidoka were astonished at the idea of Open shiai for "glory and prizes."

As to my opinion of Olympic Judo and the "Last great decade," I stand by it. I don't doubt for a minute that the last "games" in Sydney had its moments, but surely you know what I mean. Gone from the games are those such as Yamashita, Saito, and even Masaki, and in are rules so restrictive as to make those great moments a distant memory.

Mark