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Jody Holeton
3rd March 2001, 23:25
Dear all,

Been really working on my ne-waza and I keep on getting caught in sankaku while in one of my opponent's guard (real skinny quick guy).

1. How do I break it?

2.If I do get caught in it what are my options?

3. Could it be I'm breaking his guard incorrectly?

This is Val Tudo ne-waza here (no pins and no shirts) and my opponent has no belt or gi for me to use for leverage.

Thanks, any input would be appreciated--
Jody


P.S.
There any good Val Tudo books out there?

Ben Reinhardt
4th March 2001, 02:00
Originally posted by Jody Holeton
Dear all,

Been really working on my ne-waza and I keep on getting caught in sankaku while in one of my opponent's guard (real skinny quick guy).

1. How do I break it?

++++Ben R.++++
If you are doing Vale Tudo, then you are striking to, right ? Truly anything goes, or not really ? Or are you really doing no-gi submission grappling ?

In any case, I would suggest you look at your posture and base while in his guard. Are you leaning towards him, putting your hands/arms abovehis waist ? If so, stop doing that.

Personally, in Vale Tudo, I would stand up and slam him back into the ground a few times....that should rattle his cage. Maybe stand up and kick him in the kidneys a few times (this all before he gets the sankaku).



2.If I do get caught in it what are my options?


3. Could it be I'm breaking his guard incorrectly?

So you are getting caught while breaking his guard...
Again, you have got to establish a strong base of support and good posture while between his legs, first thing. If you reach under one of his legs with an arm, you will give him the sankaku every time.

This is Val Tudo ne-waza here (no pins and no shirts) and my opponent has no belt or gi for me to use for leverage.

Thanks, any input would be appreciated--
Jody

I suggest you go to www.mixedmartialarts.com and go to the Underground Forum. They have groups that specialize in these types of questions.

Good luck,

Ben Reinhardt

P.S.
There any good Val Tudo books out there?

Kit LeBlanc
4th March 2001, 15:45
Jody,

First of all keep your arm tucked in so that the opponent can't pull it through to set the sankaku-jime.

If it's too late for that, stand up, stiffen your neck and arch so that you are looking at the ceiling, this should loosen it up a little. Pull the arm in 'cause you'll be asking for an arm bar at this point, then walk around so that you are straddling the opponent with your back to him.

Kit

efb8th
14th March 2001, 17:09
Hi, Guys.

If you are really in a no holds barred, anything goes match, reach around the thigh with your free hand and grasp and compress the femoral nerve, or strike it with a reinforced thumb (gouge) in the direction of the hip joint. Do it properly and it's a knock out.

Regards,

kusanku
15th March 2001, 05:00
Ah, that's a good one!Thanks, Ed, and good to see you again.

John

Jody Holeton
15th March 2001, 13:46
Thanks all,

Mr. Reinhardt, I tried the slamming thing (got ALL the way to my feet) and he hooked one hand around one of my feet for support and I couldn't get any decent leeway so I tapped out. It's good though, I'm just going to have to work harder on breaking the guard.


Dear efb8th,

I'm going to look up the femoral nerve right now. I'll try that next time. This is part of a class now, so this technique wont do permanent damage will it?

ThX--
Jody

gavinslater
15th March 2001, 14:07
Hi,

Bacics like either both or no arms in between his legs, good posture and head up and a good base.

When you are passing his guard (to your left), ensure that you have good posture once you have broken his grip keep his other leg down with your right arm/elbow. Since your using no gi, after scooping his leg up to your shoulder then grab your own left hand (like a handshake) and pull back as you do this you should be working foward for a grip on his neck and you should be pushing him down, like compressing a spring. (I am assuming you are using the guard pass where you compress him with his leg on your shoulder). Once you are by his side let the leg spring up and get side control.

If you get caught in a triangle choke then try to keep your right arm (or the one that is between his legs) from going across your body, as he will be trying to put it there to complete the choke or arm lock. bring you right knee up and wedge it in between his legs, there you will have leverage to pull it out.

Hope this helps,

Gavin Slater.

efb8th
15th March 2001, 14:39
Hi, Jody.

In a class setting, try it out at minimal force to see what you are dealing with. To do this safely, have your partner put you in a body scissors (dho jime) from the front, and place your elbows on his thighs about midway between his groin and knees. Your elbows should penetrate the inside of his thighs (this is often enough to bring submission), then be pulled back toward the insides of his knees (this "momo jime" lights up the nerve). WARNING: you are dealing with the largest exposed nerves outside the head and body. Go slowly!

Hi, John.

It's an old man's solution to this attack, don't you think?

Regards, (Nice to see you, too!)

Jeff Cook
15th March 2001, 17:38
Of course the best thing is to not get caught in the strangle. I think that issue has been stressed enough here.

The best way to break it after it is sunk in:

If his left leg is the one around your neck, sit down/back, roll to your left side a bit, and take your right leg and place it across his face/upper body and hook his head/torso towards you. I guarantee you this will work - I have done it many times.

Do just the opposite if he is strangling with the other leg.

Of course, if you are executing the strangle, control your opponent by controlling his leg with your hand, so he cannot hook across you with it! (Always a counter to the counter....)

I learned this counter to sangaku jime from a fantastic BJJ practitioner.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

kusanku
17th March 2001, 01:10
Hi Ed,, you wrote:'It's an old man's solution to this attack, don't you think?'

Yes, Ed, and I'm not gettin' any younger,:D so I really appreciate that type of elegant solution.

Whoever is gon' do that in class, try that on very carefully because it has a tendency to be quite painful.Elbows safest and even then... I had not though of this as solution to sankaku tobi, but use it on the guard every time.:-)So of course it will work.

So, back to you, Ed- that is indeed a simple, and entirely effective waza, old man techniques are indeed, the most devastating of all.For we know what will always defeat youth and skill.:D

And good to be back here. Always like the judo forum, and now that its a grappling forum, this makes it even more entertaining.

Old judo defense for sankaku was to keep the elbow bent, and roll up the legs and get yoko shiho gatame.Arms already there, after all!

Sometimes that one worked better in theory than in practice, however,and was somewhat unsatisfactory.

But the femoral nerve pinch or thumb punch is Much more fun!:-)

Plus in a real fight, the groin area is right above if you miss.

Old men of the world unite!:-)
John

efb8th
17th March 2001, 03:28
Hi again, John.

If the free hand won't work for some reason, tori can perform katate hazushi in one of its many forms and deliver an elbow strike directly into the inside of uke's thigh (also a knock-out) and push the elbow along the femur (deep) toward the groin until submission is gained. (I, of course, didn't say IF submission is gained. It will happen.)

This is one of the most effective of Dan Zan Ryu's early techniques, and is very simple to learn. I make femoral nerve attacks a part of any self defense course I teach.

Regards,

kusanku
18th March 2001, 01:53
Ed Posts: Really nasty Dazan Ryu technique combo.

Ed, that's another good one from the House of Hits.:-)

Katate Hazushi would be single hand removal technique, I take it, this would be from self defense scrolls?

We have a block in shorin ryu called hazushi uke, with two arms doing the removing.

On free hand could use this to remove a grip from another hand while rolling towards the opponent.If he doesn't let go he gets something very much like the Aikido Nikkyo, so it is in his interest to release the grip.:-)

Anyhow, katate hazushi, elbow into the femoral and then up it towrds groin that oughta just about submit anything that walks.

Another good one.


John

efb8th
18th March 2001, 08:30
Hi, John.

Katate Hazushi appears in several forms in the DZR YAWARA list. The techniques are mostly variations on a rolling pry escape from a wrist or forearm grip. The main advantages of katate hazushi for breaking sankaku jime are 1) that it frees the captured arm, and 2) that it positions the elbow for the initial strike.

kusanku
18th March 2001, 16:22
Hi Ed-
Thought I saw that on a List.

That's a good one.But they all are.Always liked Jiujitsu.DZR got some really effective stuff,no doubt about it..

The too for sankaku jime counters, there's always a wristlock to one of his grabbing arms with the grabbed wrist if quick enough, sort of a one handed konoho gaeshi and diagonally turn into him, locking him into floor.

Diagonally because you have to circumvent that leg in the or under the ribs or back.

But with the lock, he'll flip on his stomach and the leg he had on top will leave.

This also works removing a mounted opponent. You will believe a man can fly, or as one jiujitsu( another style) sandan said as I one handed flung him out of the mount and across the mat a couple months ago, 'That works real good, John!:-)'as he took ukemi with practiced skill, chugaeri actually.

Hours of fun can be had by the whole Family with this one.Just don't miss the timing!:D

Also be sure to block the punches they rain down on you before you trap and cross grab the wrist, do it like the bjj guys, shoot the arms straight up inside the punches, works fine.Then fling the turned over wrist up and over to the side and off they go.
John