Shorinji Kempo in South East Asian Games [Archive]

Miraclejack

27th May 2011, 22:21

My personal view is that this is an extremely positive step.

Kaiso started to teach the martial art of Shorinji Kempo as a hook to draw in young people so that he had the opportunity to teachthem his philosophy. I see this is the same thing but for the modern age.

On Sunday mornings my local park is full of junior football clubs. Each one of the kids taking park has been inspired to take up soccer because of a dream of one day playing for Manchester United or Arsenal. They all want to be the next Ryan Giggs ( maybe not a good example) or Wayne Rooney( oops) or Didier Drogba ( well you know what I mean). So maybe for us watching them from the touchline it's obvious that the dream is unrealistic but it still got them out onto the park.

After the kids have finished the amateur aduit and veteran teams come out to play. These guys know that they'll never play in the premiership but they still get out there for the love of the game, for the feeling of camraderie, for the pleasure that they get from doing something that they love. The grass roots are the heart of the sport. The rest is just window dressing.

For every Husein Bolt there are thousands of members of amateur athletics clubs who do what they do for the love of doing it. I know that everyone will be screaming that SK isn't a sport, but thats a distinction that we,as cogniscenti (or snobs), make.

The fact that Shorinji Kempo is at the SEA games may inspire hundreds of kids to take up that martial art with the funny name.. Even if it is one or two then it has been worth it because that is when our job as instructors starts.

Once they have been inspired and want to join a club then we, like Kaiso did, have the opportunity to influence them with the philosophy that keeps us coming back week after week and, as time passes, that may become the driving force for their continued training rather than the dream of Olympic glory.

If we are lucky enough to find an especially technically gifted student in our dojo then I believe that is something to celebrate. If they need to study under another instructor to hone their skills then why not? If we end up with an elite embu squad then OK, it's great publicity. It's aspirational. It's inspiring.

Many of our current students have joined because of demonstrations. They didn't join because of a lecture on kongo zen ( well, except a few of the weird ones ;)), they joined because the moves they saw looked exciting and dynamic. The SEA games is the same thing on a wider scale.

Our opportunity is to influence our kenshi once they have started training. If we're going to start building this ideal world then we need a few more people to help and if wider exposure brings a few more people through the Dojo door then, in my opinion, it is a good thing.

JL.

28th May 2011, 00:07

Gassho!

The idea sounds good in theory, tempting in fact. The sad truth is that Shorinjikempo as it is now would cease to exist, plain and simple.
I know that sounds pessimistic but it's a simple fact because of two things:
- The Olympic games are run by a company with very strict rules. Shorinjikempo would have to change, dramatically to comply with them.
- First and foremost it would not be possible to keep the tight lid on technical standards, gradings etc. like WSKO's doing right now. If a sports discipline goes Olympic everybody must be allowed to compete and thus everybody could call themselves a Shorinjikempo instructor as long as they complied with the rules of the IOC – not the WSKO statutes, Kongozen philosophy, Budo tradition or anything else.
WSKO's trying to preserve Kaiso's heritage (and so are, I assume the breakaway organisations, branches and instructors everywhere). This would not be possible anymore, at least not in any meaningful way, IMHO.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz

28th May 2011, 02:01

I will admit that my knowledge of Olympic inclusion is virtually non existent, but I have trouble seeing how WSKO would loose any meaningful control.

There will no doubt be conditions that IOC will demand, but ultimately no one could compete in an event without belonging to the sporting body concerned. I've had some experience with this with regard to cycling. Someone just can't compete in the Olympics, they first have to be chosen by their national sporting body, in my case Cycling Australia . To be chosen the athlete needs to be a member of a cycling club where he or she will have available to them a range of accredited cycling coaches. They also need to compete in a number of accredited events, if they have the skill, then Cycling Australia may select them to represent Australia. The national body also has to belong to the international body (UCI), therefore they have to comply with the UCI rules of competition and equipment. In all this, the UCI still seems to remain firmly in control of sporting international cycling.

I do know the IOC are a little odd in that they sometimes like to group sports under one body, like swimming, diving, ect, will all be under Aquatics. However there seems precedents that would lend weight to Shorinji Kempo having its own body as Judo and Boxing both have their own unique body of control.

Of course the other aspect is that Olympic inclusion isn't the same as seeking a great sporting direction. We can still move towards some sporting events without necessarily seeking Olympic status. The question is would some level of competition improve Shorinji Kempo? I believe it would.

Rob Gassin

28th May 2011, 07:40

Jan,

I think that, in the unlikely event that SK becomes an Olympic sport, the IOC may have a say but overall, an international SK body, will be the ruling body, determining rules, who can teach, who can compete etc. I think that the same applies to Judo and TKD. If you do not belong to the Olympic accredited organisation (IJF & ITF), you cannot compete.

Cheers,

Rob Gassin

28th May 2011, 07:49

I wonder what the politics behind it is in Indonesia? How much philosophy and meditation remain in SK in the world's largest Muslim nation?

Hi Dirk,

In Indonesia, the version of SK history that is taught is slightly different from that taught in the west, with a greater emphasis on the Indian and Chinese influence, and less detail of Kaiso's history. Meditation and Chinkon remain integral parts of SK but the emphasis of the Dokun is somewhat different with more emphasis on Indonesian nationalism. Dharma is not mentionned. My understanding is that overall, the philosophy is acceptable to the Indonesians and therefore taught.

Cheers,

Panu Suominen

28th May 2011, 19:35

Great. Things turn to rubbish more and more faster. How in the hell are you supposed to compete in becoming better person at Olympic level? And what is the reasoning behind it when integral part of becoming better is letting go of the need to compete?

In Shorinji Kempo there is not even meaning full ways to compete. UFC and MMA does "randori" competitions much better. Figure scating, gymnastics and dancing cleans floors with embu.

After going this route there is no more self defence or philosophical aspect. Just some half arsed "sport" based on nothing. Why have I wasted time to this....

Steve Williams

28th May 2011, 20:04

Panu, calm down and think a little clearly.
If we follow your reasoning then nobody would continue with judo because it's now an Olympic sport (unless you want to be an Olympian), but this is not the case as many people still train in judo and only a very very small number do it to be in the Olympics.
To take it even further then why would people want to run or jump or do any of the Olympic sports if they were not to become an Olympian? This is an extreme and patently ridiculous exaggeration but it illustrates why we should not have a knee jerk reaction to this news.

People train in Shorinji Kempo for a multitude of reasons and even if it does become some sort of Olympic sport then only a very small number of people will try this route. Most will still train with the original goals in mind IMHO The hundreds of people you see out jogging are not Olympic marathon runners in training......

JL.

28th May 2011, 20:16

Gassho!

To be fair, I don't think that post actually adressed what Panu-san critized about the idea of SK becoming Olympic. Thus the question remains, apart from publicity, what's the benefit of this? Compared to the obvious downsides I really don't think it's worth it.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

P. S.: It's rather strange that in English the people competing are called "Olympians", because those are actually gods. Or maybe that is what they strive for? ^^ JL

colin linz

28th May 2011, 22:13

I'm sorry, but at times I think we tend to be overly elitist. There are many very positive personal growth opportunities in most sport. The idea of developing ones self is at the core of many sporting bodies. The concept of competition is not detrimental to this development. I would suggest that like everything else, that as long as the competition is used in a balanced way it would enrich the training experience of many kenshi.

WSKO have international competitions every 4 years, but from my experience many western countries have very little of this. I'm not even sure that we have had any here. I was asked at a national taikai to demonstrate (along with a few others) correct point score randori, but I think that was about as far as we ever got with it. Having a level of national competition would surely help kenshi have a better experience at WSKO's taikai.

And just for the record, I do accept that in some cases sporting activities can become farcical. I just don't think that this is inevitable, rather just a case of misdirected management.

ocatford

28th May 2011, 22:50

Erm, aren't we all jumping the gun a little here, and perhaps being rather disrespectful towards other martial arts?

Firstly, this is the Southeast Asian games. Shorinji Kempo appears to have a greater following and visibility there than in the West. Where there is interest there is demand, and where there is demand you provide a supply that will hopefully encourage further demand. Great for Shorinji Kempo in Southeast Asia, but I doubt it's going to be on ESPN, Sky Sports or the BBC Sport website any time soon. So talking about it becoming part of the Olympics - we're flattering ourselves surely? There are not enough world-wide practioners to provide a talent base that would justify it for inclusion within the Olympics. Wasn't there a rumour that Wushu would become an event? That's got far more practitioners but it seems to have come to nothing as yet, so maybe we can reel this in from extreme conclusions and discuss the core of the matter: does competition in a martial art render it less morally or practically valid?

Which brings me to the second point. These reactions, in their distaste for competetive martial arts, imply criticism and disrespect for those arts that do go in for competition. Do we really want to come across as so snobbish? Are we saying that Taekwondo, Judo, Greco-roman and Freestyle wrestling, Boxing, Archery, Fancing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc, etc (not to mention, as others have, running, cycling, swimming, football, hockey, basketball and son on) are not as good as Shorinji Kempo because some of their practitioners compete internationally? That they have nothing to offer? That they have not improved the lives of the millions who study them? That's a sweeping statement if ever there was one.

I believe that the morality and practicality of a martial art are embedded firstly in a club's instructor, and secondly in the motivation of each individual practitioner as they mature in their study of their own art. I've heard some UFC fighters talk in interviews about philosophy that ties in with our own. True, not all of them do - some are there for money or fame or because they simply like fighting (and some people take up Shorinji Kempo to learn nerve points that will knowck people out - they either change or leave when they fail to understand and develop the other aspects we teach). But some see competitive fighting as a Budo - as a personal journey about developing themselves - who are we to say that they are wrong?

For all it's supposed competition emphasis I've also seen Taekwondo classes where they play down the competitive element and focus on "traditional" training. Karate, Aikido and Jiu Jitsu styles have seen divisions based on disagreement regarding the usefullness of competition, compared to traditional methods though some aim and manage to reconcile traditional training and competitive application.

I think some of the reactions and comparisons here run the risk of being seen as prejudice towards other martial arts. Was Kaiso prejudiced towards other styles? Or did he look at them and extract what was useful?

At the end of the day life is a competition. That is a fact. We compete for jobs, for pay, for partners. When we bid for a home against someone else we are competing. When we are ill, or depressed or sad we can either submit or take the fight to the world. Life is about winning and losing, success and failure. If we deny that fact it might be because we are denying our failures and weaknesses, or lack confidence that we might succeed or become stronger. Just as life is full of suffering, losing is inevitable. Competition though can teach us to cope with losing, and to become stronger because of it. I do not recall that Shorinji Kempo teaches that we must not seek success, it only cautions against pursuit of success for profit alone.

I also believe that competition can encourage excellence, and excellence is attractive and inspirational. How does that not tie in with the aspirations of Kongo Zen?

There is always a danger that some will seek excellence through specialisation, losing the breadth of study available, but clubs specialise in any case - some do more randori, some are grading focussed, some work on embus... that's why we have Taikais - so that we can mix and share the benefits of our specialities. Competition is simply another way to promote and prove their effectiveness.

I think the key to this though is reconciling the risks of competitive training, with the philosphy of Shorinji Kempo. This will be down to each the branch masters. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, should Shorinji Kempo embrace and encourage competition, it would become obligatory for all. It should be considered a tool for developing ourselves and our art. I know that we fail to recruit some people because they believe a non-competitive art is invalid, intuitively feeling that it lacks pressure-testing with uncompliant opponants. Often they have no experience to base that assumption on - are we guilty of making the same assumption from the other side though?

In the end, I would suggest that quite a few posters on here have an aversion to competition that is unfair. Competition is not evil, just as money, or success, or even martial arts are not evil (though many out there say they are - fear, sour grapes or envy?) - all of these are tools that are used by people, and it is how people use them that decides on the outcome. I seem to remember something about "everything depends on the quality of the person" - surely competition should be considered in the same vein. Stop reacting with fear and cynicism and have a little more faith, in WSKO, in the students of Shorinji Kempo, in the branch masters and in Shorinji Kempo as a practice.

I wondering if we're missing a host of development opportunities as individuals and as a martial art because we have a perception that Shorinji Kempo is anti-competition.

JL.

29th May 2011, 00:40

Gassho!

I feel that this thread is being derailed by making it about the question whether competition is good or bad. This wasn't the original topic (see the title and opening post) and it's also not the topic I was interested in.
If anyone's still interested in the actual topic (the SEA games) maybe this report (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/b-report/402.html) can shed some light on it. Apparently we're seeing more of a bid of the Indonesian federation to spread SK throughout Southeast Asia here than anything to do with competition. Which I think is a great thing.
The part that got me interested is the question of the Olympics, specifically, not competition per se or particularly. I have voiced my concerns about that and won't repeat them, they're still here for anyone interested to read. I'll repeat, though, since it seems to have slipped people's notice, that this is not a hypothetical idea (even though it may not be realistic in the near future) but a very concrete plan the Indonesian federation has been massively lobbying for in recent years at least, according to Aosaka-sensei.

Re. competition, I really don't get where the uproar comes from – since when has SK ever not been about competition? There's Embu competition everywhere (more or less), certainly encouraged by Hombu. There was Randori competition in Japan up until a lethal accident in the 80s(?) and most certainly still is in Indonesia. These are, according to the Tokuhon, the two 'highest forms' of SK practice. Logically achievements in them are tested against others'.
Now, it is my personal opinion that competition isn't quite as important in SK as in other styles, because the philosophy is geared more towards learning and growing together instead of against each other, but it certainly has its valid place in this style. Also it is plainly ridiculous to expect something calling itself a martial art or Budo not to contain any competitive elements. Maybe Aikido is the exception that proves the rule, as I've even heard instructors call it "the art of not-fighting", but I know there's quite a lot of different schools as well.
I also personally don't care much for competition. Maybe because of my age or because I've spent years competing in several sports, including MA, and am 'past' that. But I'm not opposed to it at all. I just don't think it's what this thread is about.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz

29th May 2011, 01:04

As for results, it is hard to go past the Indonesian Federation. They have a massive membership and it is fairly reasonable to expect this membership base to carry a lot of weight with WSKO. I hope it all goes well for them, it is great to see a proactive federation trying to give their kenshi a diverse training experience. I just don't see too many negatives regarding this. It isn't compulsory, all it does is broaden the training experience for those kenshi that would like to experience it.
http://www.bt.com.bn/sports-national/2011/02/17/brunei-ready-fight-sea-games-kempo-gold

Panu Suominen

29th May 2011, 05:04

Panu, calm down and think a little clearly.

I am sorry Sensei.

If we follow your reasoning then nobody would continue with judo because it's now an Olympic sport (unless you want to be an Olympian), but this is not the case as many people still train in judo and only a very very small number do it to be in the Olympics.

I am not saying that participation level would drop. It would probably raise.
I just think that it would change Shorinji Kempo something it was not supposed to be.

I think currently there isn't any sensible way of competiting in Olympics. But beside that problem I still see a lots of problems in the way what kind of training Olympic games would require and what it would do to the stuff not related to competiting.

It would probably require (at least it should) a lots of work to win Olympic medal in Shorinji Kempo. Wouldn't it be sensible to use less (and less) time to things that do not directly contribute to the possibility of winning? How could the winners avoid cashing in with their victory? And what about the coaches? Wouldn't they start to brag how many Olympic winners they have trained? (I have heard this already with embu competitions.)

Would beginners choose to practice in a place that advertice that they have Olympic level teaching? And is this teching likely not to include stuff not related to competiting? I think this would eventually change what Shorinji Kempo is.

colin linz

29th May 2011, 05:47

All genuine concerns Panu, but at some point we need to have confidence in people. At the moment we already have a number of ways to be egotistical within Shorinji Kempo, these attitudes are not only confined to the sporting arena. In some ways competition just provides us with more scope and opportunity to develop as a person. It is fairly well observed that we don't develop intellectually or physically without these areas being pushed and stressed, I think this is also true when it comes personal or emotional growth.

I think it is quite true that Kaiso didn't envisage competition within Shorinji Kempo, but he seemed sympathetic to the needs to modify this for individual kenshi. There were a few kenshi that had strong desires to compete and Kaiso supported theme in this (I believe Aosaka sensei was one of these kenshi).

JL.

29th May 2011, 09:36

Shame there are no Indonesian kenshi (posting) on eBudo. It would be great to get their perspective directly …

JL

dirk.bruere

29th May 2011, 10:59

Rags to rags in three generations.

Rob Gassin

29th May 2011, 12:54

For those worried that too much competition will change SK for ever, I propose the following 3 part event. Each part contributes a maximum of 33 mardks. The winner is the one who scores the highest mark on the 3 parts combined.

1. Randori
2. Embu
3. A 2000 word essay on an aspect of SK philosophy - the topic not being revealed until the last minute.

This would surely ensure SK practitioners have an indepth understanding of SK :)

atonfrc

29th May 2011, 13:24

I think the problem is not how the competition is but the competition itself. ;)

Competition put one against other... in all competition is need one winner, and this can break the harmony between the kenshi and create the idea of "I am better than you".

On the other hand, competition is attractive to youth and could teach them to lead with victories and defeats. What is important, in my opinion, is not lost the essence of the SK and this must be teach in the daily workout at the dojo. ;)

Panu Suominen

29th May 2011, 18:25

I don't think competing is such a problem but doing it seriously is in context of Shorinji Kempo is. Serious competitor has very little time to do anything that does not increase the possibility of winning the event he/her is training for. Also it is unlikely that one could compete seriously and yet understand that winning or losing are meaningless distractions. Even I have hard time to undestand it and I don't compete. The physical side of martial arts/self defence/what ever is mostly about surviving. Sports are about winning. There is nothing wrong about it. It is just whole other ball game...

Some people say that they are still doing Shorinji Kempo when they have not been in actual practices for a long time. Mostly nobody argues against this. It seems that quite big part of Shorinji Kempo is something other than physical activity (maybe it is an attitude?). I don't think one can have a meaningful competition in something which is not an actual physical or mental skill.

Of course serious competition attitude does not require Olympics. Some people seem to take Embu competitions quite seriously. But it does not require embu competition. Among many things I have weak spots for verbal arguments. ;)

It is true that big sport events would increase the visibility of Shorinji Kempo greatly. But the bigger the event is the serious the competition is likely to be. Participation would require kenshi to have different kind of attitude from what I think So Doshin had in his mind. The competitor would be "sacrifacing" his/her progress for giving glory to the organisation. Of course it might be that the competitive attitude would wear off and best of both worlds could be attained... Interesting... Maybe this is not so bad after all.

Thus the problem of what kind of competition would be sensible in Shorinji Kempo. There already are many forms of point sparring and embu has no clear rules for serious competition. Maybe something like Rob suggested. First pairs perform embus and in final the best pair fights against each other for the first price.

colin linz

30th May 2011, 03:31

Rags to rags in three generations.
One man's trash is another man's treasure. There are a number of ways to cultivate and encourage human relations; there is also plenty of scope for the development of emotional intelligence in sport. It might not be everyone’s choice of pathway, but it is an effective learning tool. Like all tools, it can be used effectively or poorly.

dirk.bruere

30th May 2011, 10:47

I think it fair to say that hereditary dictatorship is not the best way to run any organization.

oriesama

2nd June 2011, 11:44

Gassho Rei,

greetings from Indonesia........

Kesshu.

colin linz

2nd June 2011, 13:01

oriesama

2nd June 2011, 14:19

Hi Orie,

It is nice to see you on this forum. As you have read, there has been some interest in Shorinji Kempo as a participating sport at the South East Asian Games. I think everyone here would be very interested to hear the thoughts of Indonesian kenshi, or for that matter, any other eligible participants.

Thank you Senpai Linz :)

fist of all let us read this first :

Indra KARTASASMITA
WSKO Board Member
WSKO Official Instructor
Vice President, Indonesian Shorinji Kempo Federation

Indonesian Shorinji Kempo Federation has 50,000 kenshi, being the second largest Shorinji Kempo Federation after Japan. He is one of the vice presidents of the Indonesian Federation and a member of the WSKO Board. Above all, he is one of the persons who sowed the seed of Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia.

Mr. Kartasasmita: We haven't had enough legal systems concerning sports in Indonesia. I would like to establish a system that guarantees the lives of players after they retire from active players, or in case of accidents. We want to establish laws to support good players. That's what we are talking about at my committee that consists of members of parliament, where I am the chairman.

- How did you know Shorinji Kempo?
Mr. Kartasasmita: I was a student at Tenri University and Doshisha University Graduate School. I learned Judo, Karate, and Iai-do as well. One day, Ginanjar, one of my friends who was also studying in Japan, told me to throw him. So I tried, but he threw me. I asked him what the budo was, and he said it was a secret. How frustrating!
Later I found out that the technique I experienced was Shorinji Kempo, and finally found out Kyoto Betsuin, where Kaiso and other instructors were teaching.

Kaiso was teaching there for 5 to 7 days once a month. He applied his technique to me, and when I said "itai yo, itai yo (it hurts)", he said "Look, this technique works even on a foreigner." (laughter)

However hard the practice was, Mr. Kartasasmita went to the dojo as early as possible and left there after everyone. After the practice when Kaiso applied his techniques to him, Kaiso would say "your arms and legs must be hurting a lot", and would buy him a bowl of udon noodles. Warm words from Kaiso "You like it?" touched deep inside his heart.

- What do you remember most vividly about what Kaiso said?
Mr. Kartasasmita: Kaiso repeatedly told me "Master Shorinji Kempo and promote it in Indonesia. That is not for myself but for Indonesia."

On September 30, 1965, there was an attempted coup by communists in Indonesia. It was not successful, but the people were feeling unsettled. Young people were feeling frustrated. It was under such circumstances that Mr. Kartasasmita started teaching Shorinji Kempo.

Mr. Kartasasmita: Young people would form gangs of hoodlums at that time. When I was passing through a park, a gang came to surround me. I drew a circle of around 3 meters in diameter on the ground, and told them to come inside of it one by one. I waited for them in taiki gamae. When one of the hoodlums grabbed my wrist, I gave him gyaku gote, and then to ura gatame. Then I told the other hoodlums that the guy would die if they let me continue. (Laughter)

Two of them became students of Mr. Kartasasmita. He made them promise not to do anything nasty again and let them join him. The new kenshi sometimes showed the attitudes they had when they were hoodlums. At such times, Mr. Kartasasmita warned them with harsh words, until they do not show their bad egoism, in his words.

Mr. Kartasasmita: Indonesia is a Muslim country. I often said very insulting words like, "You, babi (pig)!" Then I would give them a long sermon. They needed a drastic remedy to fully receive what I was trying to convey to them.

It should be like Japan right after the defeat in the war.

He did not allow a kenshi to show the techniques to anyone until he passes 3rd kyu. He kept the techniques secret, so that the learners feel proud of Shorinji Kempo they are learning. When they pass the 3rd kyu test, they were allowed to bring their friends, but one or two only.

Mr. Kartasasmita: You may wonder why we kept it so strictly secret. One reason is that we would have to stop practicing if anyone brings in a communist to our group.

This system continued until the 6th term students.

While teaching the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, he increased the number of members little by little. One of the first term students has become a president of a German bank.

Mr. Kartasasmita: In Indonesia, we have a saying that if you say you will build a house, you have to do so. This is the idea of self-actualization. I tell to my kenshi that if they say they would pass a grading test, they have to pass. However, I will never accept arrogance.
When a kenshi passes a test, he is thrown into a muddy river instead of saying "congratulations" to him, because if I say congratulations to him, he would stop practicing.

This tradition continues today.

This happened on the last day of their Gasshuku. After receiving the new ranks, all the male kenshi who passed the tests were taken off their upper dogi, and made to lay on the floor half naked, and hit with belts by their "sempai". They were forced to do sit-ups, while senior kenshi step on their bodies. There were screaming everywhere.

However, when looked at closely, even they are screaming, the new rank holders were smiling, and the both parties were enjoying it as a traditional crazy but fun ceremony. Then they all went into the river outside the dojo and came out with their bodies muddy all over, showing bright smiles on their faces.

Mr. Kartasasmita: The reason why Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia has become such a big organization is that because the instructors were Indonesians, who understand the Indonesians, and taught them with the way that works for the Indonesians. People follow us because we teach them in a strict way. (Laughter)

(February 4, 2006, at the Indonesian Federation 40th Anniversary,
reported by Toru Hatsuki, Chief Editor of Kaiho Shorinji Kempo)
http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/instructor/indrass.html

my point is:

The reason why Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia has become such a big organization is that because the instructors were Indonesians, who understand the Indonesians, and taught them with the way that works for the Indonesians.

Rob Gassin

3rd June 2011, 02:21

oriesama

3rd June 2011, 03:03

Hi Orie,

Thanks for posting the very interesting article regarding sensei Indra KARTASASMITA. The success of SK in Indonesia and the quality of Indonesian Kenshi is a testament to him.

One of our kenshi in Melbourne, started SK in Indonesia. He has impecable technique a strong spirit and is very respectful of all other kenshi. I don't think anyone at our SK branch will disagree, if I call him our favourite son. He has been a great ambassador for Perkemi, and we have learnt a lot about the Indonesian SK Federation, from him. He, for one, is very supportive, and not surprised by the introduction of SK at the SEA games and sees no conflict between the philosophy espoused by Perkemi and involvement in sporting competition.

You may not realise it Orie but in Europe, North America and Australia, the lack of sporting competition in SK ihas been one of it's attractions and selling points. Therefore, it's introduction to a multi-sport event such as the SEA Games is a bit of a shock to many kenshi. For some, it is a challenge to what attracted them to SK in the first place.

This brings us back to the question, asked by Colin. What do Indonesian kenshi think of SK being in the SEA Games?

Cheers,
Thank You Senpai Gassin

FYI, Sensei Indra Kartasasmita is also members of Indonesian National Sporting Committee and Indonesian Olympic Committee. That affecting the development of Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia. Shorinji Kempo had the Goverment financial and other aid for it's development here. For The example, Shorinji Kempo pays less Rent than Aikido in the Government's Sporting Hall.

Those facility had it's own consequences, one of them we must be performed for the prestige of our Nation. One of that, is we must Internationally well known. As You see, for our government, International Taikai is not enough... so we must perform on the national and international sporting event.

since 70's Shorinji Kempo is one of the branch of National Sporting Week. in the PON (National Sporting Week) shorinji kempo competition is devided into Enbu and Randori, just like what we are discussing about in here.

those had it's own positive effect on the development of shorinji kempo members in Indonesia. in the 90's is usual to see, a dojo held a training consisting more than 50 kenshies

but now, things are different. as the declining of the martial artists enthusiasm on the people affecting the new member of Shorinji Kempo. now days, only the Die Hard supporters of shorinji kempo stand. and some of them just like in here... questioning how come a budo being competed?? but still, as Indonesian Kenshi, we had our obligation to promote Shorinji Kempo nationally and internationally such demands from our government to us

maybe that's could describe our position as indonesian Kenshi

Kami berjanji, akan tunduk kepada Pimpinan, mengikuti latihan tanpa keraguan, sebagai insan yang murni.-Janji Kempo
(We Pledge, will be obey to the (Shorinji Kempo)Leadership, following the exercise without hesitation, as a purely human.-Indonesian Shorinji Kempo Pledge)
meanwhile maybe you could visit our forum at
http://www.kaskus.us/showthread.php?t=868056
mostly is in bahasa indonesia, but i think english is also welcome there

colin linz

3rd June 2011, 04:39

Nothing ever remains unchanged. Change is the only real certainty in life. I think it is true to say that decades ago the sporting aspect of Shorinji Kempo wasn't really practiced in the west, and it was seen as a bit of a distraction to message of budo.

However over time social needs change. Subsequent generations develop their own traits and identity. I know in my profession we have had to change considerably to meet the different learning needs of todays young people. We still teach much the same content, but our delivery of this content has changed greatly. I think that this same experience can be transferred to Shorinji Kempo.

Young people today seem to like the idea of sporting activities and are also very "brand" conscious. I think we, at least here in Australia, would benefit greatly from a higher profile that comes with participation in major sporting events. I also feel that if done properly the experience could still be a very valuable philosophical teaching tool.

I guess one way of gaining some insight would be for more western kenshi to get to know some Indonesian kenshi. Their federation has been spectacularly successful, they have had more exposure to the sporting aspects of Shorinji Kempo than most of us in the west, yet they are very serious in all the aspects of their training and show none of the egotistical traits that we seem to be worried about.

Rob Gassin

3rd June 2011, 05:15

Orie,

Please call me Rob ;)

Your post is very enlightning and address a lot of the questions that have been asked in this thread.

I admire the leadership of the Indonesian Federation for having the courage and dedication to maintain the high profile of SK in their country.

The rest of us will be watching closely to see how involvement in imternational sport affects SK in Indonesia, and the other Souh East Asian countries. I suspect that in 10 years, we will all look back and wonder what the fuss was all about.

Congratulations to SK Indonesia for being trail blazers and taking on this challenge (SEA Games).

Cheers,

oriesama

3rd June 2011, 07:27

atonfrc

3rd June 2011, 14:28

Very important and enlightening words of Orie.

Tripitaka of AA

3rd June 2011, 15:21

A big thank you to Orie for those posts. Very interesting.

JL.

4th June 2011, 20:56

Gassho!

Well, whaddaya know: one leaves the internet alone for just three days and look what happens … ^^
Anyway, thanks to Raditya-san for the rare and most welcome insights – glad to see my ploy worked. ;)
There's one part I haven't gotten yet:

Mr. Kartasasmita: We haven't had enough legal systems concerning sports in Indonesia. I would like to establish a system that guarantees the lives of players after they retire from active players, or in case of accidents. We want to establish laws to support good players. That's what we are talking about at my committee that consists of members of parliament, where I am the chairman.I'm not sure who the "players" mentioned are, but if this is a reference to the kenshi participating in sporting competitions it sounds like the goal is to establish a group of professional athletes within SK that are payed for by the organisation. I find that idea a little troubling. More than a little, in fact …

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz

5th June 2011, 00:23

oriesama

5th June 2011, 07:58

Gassho!

Well, whaddaya know: one leaves the internet alone for just three days and look what happens … ^^
Anyway, thanks to Raditya-san for the rare and most welcome insights – glad to see my ploy worked. ;)
There's one part I haven't gotten yet:

I'm not sure who the "players" mentioned are, but if this is a reference to the kenshi participating in sporting competitions it sounds like the goal is to establish a group of professional athletes within SK that are payed for by the organisation. I find that idea a little troubling. More than a little, in fact …

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Thank you senpai for the questions :)
First This statement:

Mr. Kartasasmita: We haven't had enough legal systems concerning sports in Indonesia. I would like to establish a system that guarantees the lives of players after they retire from active players, or in case of accidents. We want to establish laws to support good players. That's what we are talking about at my committee that consists of members of parliament, where I am the chairman.

What Indra Kartasasmita Sensei mean is the athlete in general. He is member of the Indonesian National Sporting Committee and Indonesian Olympic Committee. Kenshies are just also some part of that national athlete.

Second, Professional Kenshies
I think not that "professional" either. our Kenshies stay in amateur condition. Perhaps there are allowances and some bonus regarding their achievement, but still Kenshies had their own profession (even tough, my fellow kenshies said, the amount of the allowance is equal to the national standard minimum wage). Some of the kenshies had the bonus, by being appointed to the government offices or in State-owned Enterprises (one of them is Pertamina, company that Sensei Indra Kartasasmita had worked).
But still, kenshies are just amateur, just like in the another countries.

Perhaps Orie might like to explain that idea further. I read it as putting in place insurance type systems that will assist kenshi injured in competition, but I can see Jan's interpretation as well.

Given that we already have some paid instructors and admin staff, would it be so bad having a few paid promotional staff?
Third, Insurance system
the insurance system is same with another sporting branch. there is no special treatment on kenshies or another athletes.

and still Indonesian Kenshies are just amateur athletes all senpai :)

maybe that could help :)

colin linz

5th June 2011, 08:39

Thanks for the clarification Orie. I didn't know how your training was structured in terms of insurance. I know here we are supposed to have insurance to protect kenshi, as with all other sporting activities. However this isn't something that is actively policed by governments and relies on the individual sporting bodies to enforce. I think most branches here would have insurance, but I would not be surprised if there were some that didn't.

squalldy

15th June 2011, 16:58

Gasho Rei
:)
__/\__

I'm kenshi from Indonesia too.. shodan..

Wish Aseangames will be succesfull especially for Shorinji Kempo.

Lets think positive about it!!! and may brotherhood of kenshi always be strong.. yihaa..:laugh:

JL.

15th June 2011, 22:34

Lets think positive about it!!! and may brotherhood of kenshi always be strong.. yihaa..:laugh:Good to have You here, Suwardy-san! :)
But what about the sisters? ;)

Jan

PeterL

16th June 2011, 03:06

Very nice to hear form Kenshi in Indonesia. Hope you will continue to post.

Best wishes

Peter
Takamatsu-Higashi Doin

Rob Gassin

25th June 2011, 04:51

Following is the CV of Indra Kartasasmita. Pretty impresive, don't you think?

No wonder SK is the SEA Games.

Indra Kartasasmita
email address : indra.kartasasmita@olympic.or.id

Born in Jakarta on 2nd of November 1938

Formal Education : Graduate School of Economics, Doshishe University, Kyoto, Japan

Previous Job : Sr. Vice President, PERTAMINA (National Oil & Gas Company of Indonesia) retired in 1995

Activities in NOC (National Olympic Committee)

1.1967-1978 Elite Sport Development Committee
2.1978-1982 Deputy Treasurer
3.1982-1986 Hon Treasurer
4.1986-1991 Hon Treasurer
5.1991-1995 Sr. Vice President Bussiness Development
6.1999-2003 Vice President International Relations
7.2003-2005 Vice President Planning and Budgeting
8.2005-2007 Sr. Vice President
9.2007-Present Vice President International Relations
Other NOC Assignments

1.1999 Team Leader SEA Games, Brunei
2.2000 Deputy Chef de Mission, Sydney Olympics
3.2001 Deputy Chef de Mission SEA Games, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
4.2003 Deputy Chef de Mission SEA Games, Vietnam
5.2004 Chef de Mission, Athens Olympics
6.2005 Deputy Chef de Mission SEA Games XXXIII Philippines
7.2006 Deputy Chef de Mission Doha Asian Games
Regional Olympics Organization

1999-Present Excon Member and Council Member SEA Games Federation

1999-2003 Member OCA Statistics and Information Committee

Islamic Solidariy Sports Federation

2000-2005 Member Executive Committee

Sport Federation

Indonesia Sailing Federation :

1981- Present : Councilor

1981- Present : Judge Kuda Laut Sailing Club

1981- Present : Comodore Tanjung Lesung Sailing Club

Indonesia Kempo Self Defence Federation

1996 : Founder & President

1998- Present : Chief Instructor and Vice President

Indonesia Badminton Federation

2002-2005 : Sr. Vice President Higher Performance Division and International Relation

Other Sports

Football (Soccer)

1981-1995 : President The Tankers Football Club

Scuba Diving

1981-1991 : President "Kuda Laut" Scuba Diving Clib

ken70

25th June 2011, 08:14

Wish Aseangames will be succesfull especially for Shorinji Kempo.

+1 with you!

Sum dum guy

25th June 2011, 21:31

Gassho Oliver

You are right on in every sentence you say here.
The line starting your third paragraph is the essence of this whole debate.
We all need to remember that the branch master has control of direction and focus and that is what shapes it all.
Everyone needs to keep faith in each leaders ability to do this.
Sure some will slip off the mark to a greater or lesser degree, but thats life.
Should everyone follow your line of though, the fear or corrupting Shorinji through some competition will fall away, after all, all the branch masters did't get to where they are because they don't believe in the Shorinji message.

Your profile says you are Sho dan, that is your martial rank.
However IMHO your understanding of human nature and how Shorinji is meant to work is that of Nana dan.
I would very much like to see you continue to train and start a dojo when it is appropriate.
You are a gem your sensei should nurture and promote to a leadership role.

P.S should this feedback go to your head, (which I doubt) go do Randori with a senior and get it slapped back into place.

Kesshu
Stewart Ogg
Sotai Kempo

Erm, aren't we all jumping the gun a little here, and perhaps being rather disrespectful towards other martial arts?

Firstly, this is the Southeast Asian games. Shorinji Kempo appears to have a greater following and visibility there than in the West. Where there is interest there is demand, and where there is demand you provide a supply that will hopefully encourage further demand. Great for Shorinji Kempo in Southeast Asia, but I doubt it's going to be on ESPN, Sky Sports or the BBC Sport website any time soon. So talking about it becoming part of the Olympics - we're flattering ourselves surely? There are not enough world-wide practioners to provide a talent base that would justify it for inclusion within the Olympics. Wasn't there a rumour that Wushu would become an event? That's got far more practitioners but it seems to have come to nothing as yet, so maybe we can reel this in from extreme conclusions and discuss the core of the matter: does competition in a martial art render it less morally or practically valid?

Which brings me to the second point. These reactions, in their distaste for competetive martial arts, imply criticism and disrespect for those arts that do go in for competition. Do we really want to come across as so snobbish? Are we saying that Taekwondo, Judo, Greco-roman and Freestyle wrestling, Boxing, Archery, Fancing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc, etc (not to mention, as others have, running, cycling, swimming, football, hockey, basketball and son on) are not as good as Shorinji Kempo because some of their practitioners compete internationally? That they have nothing to offer? That they have not improved the lives of the millions who study them? That's a sweeping statement if ever there was one.

I believe that the morality and practicality of a martial art are embedded firstly in a club's instructor, and secondly in the motivation of each individual practitioner as they mature in their study of their own art. I've heard some UFC fighters talk in interviews about philosophy that ties in with our own. True, not all of them do - some are there for money or fame or because they simply like fighting (and some people take up Shorinji Kempo to learn nerve points that will knowck people out - they either change or leave when they fail to understand and develop the other aspects we teach). But some see competitive fighting as a Budo - as a personal journey about developing themselves - who are we to say that they are wrong?

For all it's supposed competition emphasis I've also seen Taekwondo classes where they play down the competitive element and focus on "traditional" training. Karate, Aikido and Jiu Jitsu styles have seen divisions based on disagreement regarding the usefullness of competition, compared to traditional methods though some aim and manage to reconcile traditional training and competitive application.

I think some of the reactions and comparisons here run the risk of being seen as prejudice towards other martial arts. Was Kaiso prejudiced towards other styles? Or did he look at them and extract what was useful?

At the end of the day life is a competition. That is a fact. We compete for jobs, for pay, for partners. When we bid for a home against someone else we are competing. When we are ill, or depressed or sad we can either submit or take the fight to the world. Life is about winning and losing, success and failure. If we deny that fact it might be because we are denying our failures and weaknesses, or lack confidence that we might succeed or become stronger. Just as life is full of suffering, losing is inevitable. Competition though can teach us to cope with losing, and to become stronger because of it. I do not recall that Shorinji Kempo teaches that we must not seek success, it only cautions against pursuit of success for profit alone.

I also believe that competition can encourage excellence, and excellence is attractive and inspirational. How does that not tie in with the aspirations of Kongo Zen?

There is always a danger that some will seek excellence through specialisation, losing the breadth of study available, but clubs specialise in any case - some do more randori, some are grading focussed, some work on embus... that's why we have Taikais - so that we can mix and share the benefits of our specialities. Competition is simply another way to promote and prove their effectiveness.

I think the key to this though is reconciling the risks of competitive training, with the philosphy of Shorinji Kempo. This will be down to each the branch masters. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, should Shorinji Kempo embrace and encourage competition, it would become obligatory for all. It should be considered a tool for developing ourselves and our art. I know that we fail to recruit some people because they believe a non-competitive art is invalid, intuitively feeling that it lacks pressure-testing with uncompliant opponants. Often they have no experience to base that assumption on - are we guilty of making the same assumption from the other side though?

In the end, I would suggest that quite a few posters on here have an aversion to competition that is unfair. Competition is not evil, just as money, or success, or even martial arts are not evil (though many out there say they are - fear, sour grapes or envy?) - all of these are tools that are used by people, and it is how people use them that decides on the outcome. I seem to remember something about "everything depends on the quality of the person" - surely competition should be considered in the same vein. Stop reacting with fear and cynicism and have a little more faith, in WSKO, in the students of Shorinji Kempo, in the branch masters and in Shorinji Kempo as a practice.

I wondering if we're missing a host of development opportunities as individuals and as a martial art because we have a perception that Shorinji Kempo is anti-competition.

Sum dum guy

25th June 2011, 21:33

Gassho Olly

You are right on in every sentence you say here.
The line starting your third paragraph is the essence of this whole debate.
We all need to remember that the branch master has control of direction and focus and that is what shapes it all.
Everyone needs to keep faith in each leaders ability to do this.
Sure some will slip off the mark to a greater or lesser degree, but thats life.
Should everyone follow your line of though, the fear or corrupting Shorinji through some competition will fall away, after all, all the branch masters did't get to where they are because they don't believe in the Shorinji message.

Your profile says you are Sho dan, that is your martial rank.
However IMHO your understanding of human nature and how Shorinji is meant to work is that of Nana dan.
I would very much like to see you continue to train and start a dojo when it is appropriate.
You are a gem your sensei should nurture and promote to a leadership role.

P.S should this feedback go to your head, (which I doubt) go do Randori with a senior and get it slapped back into place.

Kesshu
Stewart Ogg
Sotai Kempo

Erm, aren't we all jumping the gun a little here, and perhaps being rather disrespectful towards other martial arts?

Firstly, this is the Southeast Asian games. Shorinji Kempo appears to have a greater following and visibility there than in the West. Where there is interest there is demand, and where there is demand you provide a supply that will hopefully encourage further demand. Great for Shorinji Kempo in Southeast Asia, but I doubt it's going to be on ESPN, Sky Sports or the BBC Sport website any time soon. So talking about it becoming part of the Olympics - we're flattering ourselves surely? There are not enough world-wide practioners to provide a talent base that would justify it for inclusion within the Olympics. Wasn't there a rumour that Wushu would become an event? That's got far more practitioners but it seems to have come to nothing as yet, so maybe we can reel this in from extreme conclusions and discuss the core of the matter: does competition in a martial art render it less morally or practically valid?

Which brings me to the second point. These reactions, in their distaste for competetive martial arts, imply criticism and disrespect for those arts that do go in for competition. Do we really want to come across as so snobbish? Are we saying that Taekwondo, Judo, Greco-roman and Freestyle wrestling, Boxing, Archery, Fancing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc, etc (not to mention, as others have, running, cycling, swimming, football, hockey, basketball and son on) are not as good as Shorinji Kempo because some of their practitioners compete internationally? That they have nothing to offer? That they have not improved the lives of the millions who study them? That's a sweeping statement if ever there was one.

I believe that the morality and practicality of a martial art are embedded firstly in a club's instructor, and secondly in the motivation of each individual practitioner as they mature in their study of their own art. I've heard some UFC fighters talk in interviews about philosophy that ties in with our own. True, not all of them do - some are there for money or fame or because they simply like fighting (and some people take up Shorinji Kempo to learn nerve points that will knowck people out - they either change or leave when they fail to understand and develop the other aspects we teach). But some see competitive fighting as a Budo - as a personal journey about developing themselves - who are we to say that they are wrong?

For all it's supposed competition emphasis I've also seen Taekwondo classes where they play down the competitive element and focus on "traditional" training. Karate, Aikido and Jiu Jitsu styles have seen divisions based on disagreement regarding the usefullness of competition, compared to traditional methods though some aim and manage to reconcile traditional training and competitive application.

I think some of the reactions and comparisons here run the risk of being seen as prejudice towards other martial arts. Was Kaiso prejudiced towards other styles? Or did he look at them and extract what was useful?

At the end of the day life is a competition. That is a fact. We compete for jobs, for pay, for partners. When we bid for a home against someone else we are competing. When we are ill, or depressed or sad we can either submit or take the fight to the world. Life is about winning and losing, success and failure. If we deny that fact it might be because we are denying our failures and weaknesses, or lack confidence that we might succeed or become stronger. Just as life is full of suffering, losing is inevitable. Competition though can teach us to cope with losing, and to become stronger because of it. I do not recall that Shorinji Kempo teaches that we must not seek success, it only cautions against pursuit of success for profit alone.

I also believe that competition can encourage excellence, and excellence is attractive and inspirational. How does that not tie in with the aspirations of Kongo Zen?

There is always a danger that some will seek excellence through specialisation, losing the breadth of study available, but clubs specialise in any case - some do more randori, some are grading focussed, some work on embus... that's why we have Taikais - so that we can mix and share the benefits of our specialities. Competition is simply another way to promote and prove their effectiveness.

I think the key to this though is reconciling the risks of competitive training, with the philosphy of Shorinji Kempo. This will be down to each the branch masters. I don't think anyone is suggesting that, should Shorinji Kempo embrace and encourage competition, it would become obligatory for all. It should be considered a tool for developing ourselves and our art. I know that we fail to recruit some people because they believe a non-competitive art is invalid, intuitively feeling that it lacks pressure-testing with uncompliant opponants. Often they have no experience to base that assumption on - are we guilty of making the same assumption from the other side though?

In the end, I would suggest that quite a few posters on here have an aversion to competition that is unfair. Competition is not evil, just as money, or success, or even martial arts are not evil (though many out there say they are - fear, sour grapes or envy?) - all of these are tools that are used by people, and it is how people use them that decides on the outcome. I seem to remember something about "everything depends on the quality of the person" - surely competition should be considered in the same vein. Stop reacting with fear and cynicism and have a little more faith, in WSKO, in the students of Shorinji Kempo, in the branch masters and in Shorinji Kempo as a practice.

I wondering if we're missing a host of development opportunities as individuals and as a martial art because we have a perception that Shorinji Kempo is anti-competition.

ocatford

25th June 2011, 22:15

Gassho Stewart,

Many thanks for your comments and compliments - I'm almost blushing!

It does remind me that I need to update my status - I'm now nidan.

I'm also lucky enough to now run a club (under the supervision of Sensei Peter Moore as our branch coach) - Southampton University dojo. Although my original Sensei is not too happy about that (but that's too long a story to go into here).

I guess with hindsight some of those comments about having faith in branch masters may be somewhat self-serving on that basis.

In any case, I'm sure that there are a few out there already keeping an eye on me and my ego (Sensei Steve - I know you're reading) - I'll anticipate a few hard sessions in due course.

Many thanks for the feedback in any case.

Olly

PS: Apologies to everyone else for the thread drift. I considered replying by PM but felt a public acknowledgment of the compliments and cautionary point were appropriate.

oriesama

27th June 2011, 03:42

let me share our pledge and vow as an indonesian kenshi :)

Janji
Shorinji Kempo Vow

Kami berjanji, akan tetap bertakwa kepada Tuhan Yang Maha Esa, menghormati atasan, tidak meremehkan bawahan, saling mengasihi, dan saling menolong.

we vow, will still believe in The One God, Respect the seniors, not underestimate juniors, loving each others, and help each others

Kami berjanji, akan tunduk kepada Pimpinan, mengikuti latihan tanpa keraguan, sebagai insan yang murni.

we vow, will obey our leader, practice without hesitation, as the pure human

Kami berjanji, akan mengamalkan Kempo, bagi masyarakat banyak, dan tidak hanya untuk kepentingan pribadi.

we vow, will carry shorinji kempo out with devotion for the general public and not for personal iterest only

Demi Tanah Air, Demi Persaudaraan, Demi Kemanusiaan.
For Motherland, For Comradeship, For Humanity

as in the seigan:
Seigan Profession
We swear that while we learn this way, Shorinji Kempo,

we will not disgrace our ancestors nor double-cross our instructors, and will show respect for the elderly, will not hold younger members in contempt, will make friendship each other and help each other, and will do our best for the way Shorinji Kempo shows.

We will not stick to our past, and as a infant baby learner of the Shorinji Kempo, purely seek to practice the way Shorinji Kempo shows.

We will practice the way Shorinji Kempo shows, not for our own fame but for helping other people.

Ikrar
Pledge

Kami Putra Indonesia, pencinta tanah air, bertekad mempertinggi martabat bangsa.

We Indonesian, love the motherland, determined to put our nation into grater glory

Kami Putra Indonesia, pembela kebenaran dan keadilan, berperikemanusiaan, bersopansantun, senantiasa mengutamakan kepentingan bangsa dan negara, di atas kepentingan pribadi.

We Indonesian, pledge to love justice, respect humanity, be polite, and put the motherland interest over personal interest

Demi Tanah Air, Demi Persaudaraan, Demi Kemanusiaan
For Motherland, For Comradeship, For Humanity

Japanese Pledge
We Japanese love our mother country and pledge to improve the welfare of the Japanese race

We pledge to love justice, respect humanity, be polite and be courageous in protecting the peace

We work together to achieve an ideal land

Sea Games is one of our effort to fulfill our Vow and Pledge :)

oriesama

21st July 2011, 15:13

FYI:
Tomorrow, 22nd of July untill 24th of July, We, the Indonesian Federation had an event Shorinji Kempo National Championship, held in Makassar, South Sulawesi

even-tough called "National" there was Kenshies fron the others Country in ASEAN (Brunei, Laos, Vietnam, also Myanmar) will be present

some rumor said that Brunei Darussalam had some interest to make Shorinji Kempo as the National or Military Self Defense.......

colin linz

21st July 2011, 20:20

Good luck. I hope the event goes well for all of you.

John McCulloch

21st July 2011, 23:06

FWIW -

"In China, I was taught the meaning of the world "people." The character for people is made of two things each holding up the other. It is because they hold up each other that they mean "people." People cannot exist alone. Each held up by the other, growing through that support; such is the true nature of human beings.

Love. In Buddhism the word is compassion but whichever word you use, it is the heart of human life. I do not believe that true happiness can be found in the struggle of doing in others or being done in by them.

The most important thing which people must do is not to kill each other. To make the world a better place, we must join together and use our wisdom; to increase the number of people who see their own happiness but also seek the happiness of others is the only way to such a world. This I have discovered from experience.

"Shorinji Kempo is not a mere sport or martial art."
This is an important point. The reason why is that in sports, ultimately winning is essential. And winning means doing in the other side. The opponent can even be a team mate, older or younger, but in the end getting passed up is losing and so all of one's thoughts turn to bringing down the opponent. That's why even a country with great sport is not good enough. And a country where the martial arts and things like methods of battle techniques flourish is not what we seek. The reason why is that the human heart cannot be overcome by force alone. It is impossible to bring the heart into line only through force. Furthermore we live in a different age. It is the end of the 20th century. In this day and age I don't think we need martial arts or sports anymore."

Kaiso So Doshin
(Lecture in August 1969)

oriesama

12th November 2011, 17:11

Gassho to all senpai and sensei here,

next november 16th, shorinji kempo competition in the 26th sea games
started

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/392431_2231050059273_1338520727_32257928_1755362689_n.jpg

sixteen gold medals are waiting.... :laugh:
http://seag2011.com/en/schedules/
although, PERKEMI (Indonesian Federation) are just targeting 8 gold medals

if you interseted to see how shorinji kempo is being competed, you could came and watch it
http://seag2011.com/en/venue/detail/5/GOR-Ciracas-Pasar-Rebo/

thank you :)

oriesama

12th November 2011, 17:26

16 Nov 2011
Randori (Free Sparring) 65 kg - MAN 19:05 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 65 kg - Preliminary
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - WOMEN 18:30 Women Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - Preliminary
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - WOMEN 17:55 Women Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 55 kg - MAN 17:10 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 55 kg - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 50 kg - MAN 16:25 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 50 kg - Preliminary
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - MIXED 15:50 Mixed Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair - Yudansha - Preliminary
Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Kyu Kenshi Team - MIXED 15:15 Mixed Dantai Embu Group Kyu Kenshi - Preliminary

17 Nov 2011
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - MAN 19:15 Men Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - Preliminary
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - MAN 18:40 Men Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 48 kg - WOMEN 17:55 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 48 kg - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 45 kg - WOMEN 17:10 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 45 kg - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 70 kg - MAN 16:25 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 70 kg - Preliminary
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - MIXED 15:50 Mixed Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair - Kyu Kenshi - Preliminary
Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Yudansha Team - MIXED 15:15 Mixed Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Yudansha - Preliminary

18 Nov 2011
Randori (Free Sparring) 50 kg - MAN 20:15 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 50 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 65 kg - MAN 19:40 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 65 kg - Semi Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - MIXED 19:05 Mixed Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair - Yudansha - Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - WOMEN 18:30 Women Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 55 kg - MAN 17:55 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 55 kg - Semi Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 50 kg - MAN 17:20 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 50 kg - Semi Final
Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Kyu Kenshi Team - MIXED 16:45 Mixed Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Kyu Kenshi - Semi Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 57 kg - WOMEN 16:00 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 57 kg - Preliminary
Randori (Free Sparring) 54 kg - WOMEN 15:15 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 54 kg - Preliminary

19 Nov 2011
Randori (Free Sparring) 45 kg - WOMEN 19:55 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 45 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 57 kg - WOMEN 19:20 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 57 kg - Semi Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 54 kg - WOMEN 18:45 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 54 kg - Semi Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - MAN 18:10 Men Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - MAN 17:35 Men Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 48 kg - WOMEN 17:00 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 48 kg - Semi Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 45 kg - WOMEN 16:25 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 45 kg - Semi Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 70 kg - MAN 15:50 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 70 kg - Semi Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - WOMEN 15:15 Women Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Yudansha - Final

20 Nov 2011
Randori (Free Sparring) 70 kg - MAN 18:50 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 70 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 65 kg - MAN 18:30 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 65 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 57 kg - WOMEN 18:10 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 57 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 54 kg - WOMEN 17:50 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 54 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 55 kg - MAN 16:45 Randori (Free Sparring) - Man 55 kg - Final
Randori (Free Sparring) 48 kg - WOMEN 16:25 Randori (Free Sparring) - Woman 48 kg - Final
Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair Kyu Kenshi - MIXED 15:50 Mixed Kumi Embu (Artistic) Pair - Kyu Kenshi - Final
Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Yudansha Team - MIXED 15:15 Mixed Dantai Embu (Artistic) Group Yudansha - Final

Panu Suominen

12th November 2011, 19:14

Sound very buddhist...

What are the rules for randori competition?

oriesama

13th November 2011, 00:41

Sound very buddhist...

What are the rules for randori competition?

more or less like this sempai:)

In Randori, each participant must wear do, gloves, and head protector. During the competition, participant also must wear do gi. Randori which competed consists of two numbers, there are:

Team randori
Individual randori

http://v-images2.antarafoto.com/gor/1315649401/olahraga-kejuaraan-kempo-01.jpg
randori in action

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/385960_2243875461193_1377305832_32384675_1481267829_n.jpg
preparation

Competition arena
Competition held in the arena 5x5meter square area. In randori, each round held about 2 minute net. In the team randori, each team consist 5 kenshies and one substitute. Game system determined by technical meeting. Randori led by Main Judge, supported with 2 to 4 Assistant Judge
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/156607_1552884066840_1377305832_31554293_8178849_n.jpg
one of the assistant judge

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/315761_2243880941330_1377305832_32384680_598720494_n.jpg
hajime!!!

Scoring
The winner in randori is the one who use shorinji kempo techniques, goho or juho. In goho, participant must get hard contact in participant’s zuki or geri and match with the atemi no go yosho. Unblocked zuki or geri get the 10 (ippon) equal to 5 (waza ari). If participant had less spirit (kiai), not perfect kamae, participant will get the waza ari. If using juho techniques, techniques must end with katame, if not or not proven katame is done, next attack should only target the do, not to the face or head of the opposition.
If participant use ren geri or ren zuki to beat and make the opposition fall, participant get waza ari victory. Absolute victory given to the participant (Mujokan Kachi) if in the main judge think if the randori is unbalance. If there is different level in techniques mastery or power, one participant will be given the absolute victory.

even condition only occurs in the individual randori. There was extra time 2 minutes so solve it

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/69546_1552883786833_1377305832_31554292_4159779_n.jpg
judges discussing about who is scored first, or there is score or not:D

http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/154653_1552886066890_1377305832_31554300_7459275_n.jpg
the appeal desk :D

In the team randori, competing two participant from each team competed. Each team consist 6 kenshies. They alternately get their turn to fight. Each only has one turn to fight with the regulation same with the individual randori, which who get the ippon first. The winning team determined by the total winner. If there was even condition, team with most ippon and waza ari won. If the score is also even, the winner is the team with yusei kachi. In the determination match, the winner is the one who first infirst win, called itten shobu win.

If participant leaves the arena, or cannot continue the fight, ippon given to the opposition.

note :
the team randori is not competed now, since there was lot of accident occur

Panu Suominen

13th November 2011, 07:38

Thank you for the effort to answer so throughly.
But because I have nothing good to say about this I don't say anything.
Hope you have good time with the competitions and all.

oriesama

13th November 2011, 08:35

Thank you for the effort to answer so throughly.
But because I have nothing good to say about this I don't say anything.
Hope you have good time with the competitions and all.

thank you senpai:)

i hope my explanation are enough to describe, how Indonesian use randori for competition

dirk.bruere

13th November 2011, 13:37

Looks like the opinions of Kaiso are surplus to requirements

oriesama

13th November 2011, 13:40

Looks like the opinions of Kaiso are surplus to requirements

i beg your pardon?

JL.

13th November 2011, 23:11

Gassho!

Perhaps it is helpful to mention that many European kenshi have reservations about randori competitions. In fact, as far as I am informed Perkemi is the only federation who kept them after they were abolished in Japan in the 80s(?).
Maybe this is a topic for another thread (I do recall there were a few dealing with this already, perhaps one should be re-opened …).
I personally don't see public randori competitions as very compatible with the teachings of Shorinjikempo but I do not have a problem with others disagreeing. And I find Your explanations about the way it is done in Southeast Asia to be quite enlightening, Orie-san, so thanks for that! It's always good to see a different perspective.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

oriesama

14th November 2011, 02:36

we may look weird on your point of view, but i think we are traveling to the same place, in the warriors way (bushido):)

colin linz

17th November 2011, 20:35

I think there is still plenty of randori competitions happening in Japan. Admittedly I'm out of the loop a little now, but I'm sure I have seen recent videos of them.

I also think it would be fair to say that Kaiso was very clear with his verbal messages, but then even he allowed kenshi to compete when he realised that in some cases it was a productive tool.

Great to hear that everything went well Oriesama.

oriesama

21st November 2011, 03:50

souvenir from jakarta

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/392431_2231050059273_1338520727_32257928_1755362689_n.jpg

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/377979_2171331576323_1637780208_1932095_480589346_n.jpg
opening ceremonies/chinkon (everyday)
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390773_2688886861704_1242448499_3122914_1031432312_n.jpg

Medal Distribution:D
http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/302899_2308954366832_1338520727_32302809_1869869710_n.jpg

group kumi embu, kyu kenshi, team indonesia, gold medal
4G1CYZs3KIw
http://youtu.be/4G1CYZs3KIw
more at
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.10150955275760164&type=1

oriesama

22nd November 2011, 05:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T-dh10uf-o

Rob Gassin

22nd November 2011, 18:48

colin linz

22nd November 2011, 18:58

Thanks Orie,

There are now a few more videos on you tube. There is some interesting stuff. The standard of SK is obviously very high in Indonesia.

Cheers, Rob

My thoughts too Rob. Apart from the technical standard being high, the philosophy was still embodied within the individual kenshi's actions.

oriesama

23rd November 2011, 14:21

Thanks Orie,

There are now a few more videos on you tube. There is some interesting stuff. The standard of SK is obviously very high in Indonesia.

When did SK start in Vietnam, Cambodia, Brunei etc?

Cheers, Rob

let me see....
it's about one or two years ago, when PERKEMI sent Sensei to teach there

only Malaysia who didn't use Sensei from PERKEMI, and I heard by myself they regret it :D

kofukan

1st December 2011, 00:41

oriesama

1st December 2011, 15:12

Hi Orie,
Congrats on Indonesia scored 8 golds in SEA game.
While searching for more info and i ended up to find this mockery on the facebook. This very contestant from Malaysia - Wong Sju Zo also known as George Wong taught in Cikarang dojo immediately the day he lost 2 rounds in SEA game randori under 55kg.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002430790088
Instead of him learning from Indonesia he taught at Cikarang dojo. And the sad thing is your Cikarang dojo prefers his "soft" techniques comparing to your winning team formula.
:(
In My Very Very Very Humble Opinion,

well, this cikarang dojo is just one of hundreds or maybe thousands dojo in indonesia, and FYI, here, not every dojo has pairs of dos, gloves and head protectors (the randori set)
yo may consult here, this is some of listed dojo's in indonesia
http://forum.beladiri.info/topic/2-shorinji-kempo-%e6%97%a5%e6%9c%ac%e5%b0%91%e6%9e%97%e5%af%ba%e6%8b%b3%e6%b3%95-alamat-pengprov-pengkotpengkab-perkemi/

Indonesian "winning team" made from selections from those dojo's, the selection held at city, province, and national selections (so we had those sixteen shorinji kempo "athlete" from 50 thousand kenshi around indonesia), and those "athlete" were trained by Sensei Hans Pohan, rokudan, one of the some indonesian had the opportunity to study from Kaisho Himself :)

you may look on viet nam sempai :)
viet nam had 4 gold medals and i think all is from randori. the trainer and manager is from indonesia too, sensei Bernard and sempai Chandra... both are very good at randori techniques.

frankly, i have a little bit disappointing with the level of competition at seagames yesterday... i could say, sea games had only the level of provincial tournament in indonesia....

and sorry to say, malaysian team is the most disappointing team of all team....

kofukan

5th December 2011, 01:25

let me see....
it's about one or two years ago, when PERKEMI sent Sensei to teach there

only Malaysia who didn't use Sensei from PERKEMI, and I heard by myself they regret it :D

Malaysia has 40 years of SK history and ending up people with ego. :( When your Indonesia went into selection for SEA fighters M'sia has volunteers for SEA - contestants who thought they are good. Later, even openly quote for 3 golds in SEA here, :cry:

http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2011/9/8/sports/9446787&sec=sports

The rest of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and coming up Philippines and Thailand are more vibrant comparing to M'sia. Wsko will focus and spread SK in those countries.

Panu Suominen

5th December 2011, 19:37

What is this discussion about who is better than others? Have you read anything about Shorinji Kempo at all?

This kind of talk after any sport event is a shame even when done in private, but after martial art event and done publicly.... In my eyes there is no "warrior way" or bushido in what you are doing.

This makes us all look bad. Thank you for your effort.

JL.

5th December 2011, 22:46

Gassho!

Thanks, Panu-sempai! I agree that this shows the dangers of adding competition to Shorinjikempo. It's not a very Budo mindset, nor in accordance with Kongo zen, IMHO.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

hwijaya

5th December 2011, 22:57

Gassho,

There is an on-going disputes regarding some issues between Indonesia and Malaysia (see: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/indonesia-and-malaysia-battle-over-batik/332922#Scene_1), but I hope this will not affect the kenshis from the two countries.

I practiced Shorinji Kempo longtime ago in Indonesia, so I am somewhat know Orie-san perspective because it looks the same as before. Also there is a cultural issue here. Indonesia Shorinji Kempo is fortunate to have a few founding fathers who studied directly under Kaiso, and Indonesian kenshis are doing almost 100% of what the Japanese kenshis are doing. In 1980's era, most of the dojos in Indonesia had concrete floors and minimal equipments, yet the kenshis practice were hard and intense. When Japan stopped the randori competition in 1980s due to a deadly injury, Indonesia still practice the competition. In the dojo, we had only a pair of hard shell (old style) do for randori practice. Gloves and head gears were luxury things. When we do randori, we hit and kick with 95% power as if we were fighting againsts enemies. So, broken bones and knock out were considered normal (at that time). Yet, after the randori was over, the two fighters were having dinner together.... I did not know how we did it, but after we took off the gloves, head gear, and do, we were friends again...

We called every kenshi Sem(n)pai, except for the Rokudan above or a Headmaster of the dojo.

Now I practice in the United States, I can see the different point-of-view of kenshis outside Indonesia regarding randori and competition.

Kesshu,
J.H.Wijaya
South Bay Shorinji Kempo

atonfrc

6th December 2011, 10:48

Hello Senpai

And in the USA how is the randori practice? Here in Brazil our randori practices are not very hard...

hwijaya

6th December 2011, 15:33

Gassho atonfrc,

Please call me Herdi. We (in the US) practice randori, but not often, depending on the dojo's branchmaster decision. Also safety is # 1 priority, so we use Honbu's headgear, do, gloves for randori. However, in the last few years, several dojos in Southern California have started godo renshu (practice together) including randori and embu competition.

Sorry offtopic.

Kesshu,
J.H.Wijaya
Southbay Shorinji Kempo

atonfrc

7th December 2011, 12:39

Thank you for your reply Herdi! :smilejapa

dirk.bruere

7th December 2011, 13:32

What is this discussion about who is better than others? Have you read anything about Shorinji Kempo at all?

It's about the sport of Shorinji Kempo, who won, who lost and the gold medals involved. Nothing to do with what I learned years ago, though.

colin linz

7th December 2011, 22:33

It's about the sport of Shorinji Kempo, who won, who lost and the gold medals involved. Nothing to do with what I learned years ago, though.
I don't know Dirk, I think there is some selective memory going on here. Sport has been a part of Shorinji Kempo for many years. My first trip to Hombu in 1989 had a sporting component to the Taikai, as did my second visit in 1993. We never did much in the way of sport here in Australia. There were attempts to get some interest in it at times, but they were doomed largely because of the small number of kenshi and the vast distances that separated them.

I also don't think sport has much to do with the more recent posts. It is just a centre point behind a less than friendly relationship. The sport hasn't caused this relationship breakdown, the relationship has been frosty for many years and has nothing to do with Shorinji Kempo, other than at this stage Shorinji Kempo and the subject of sport have been caught in the cross fire.

What is evident to me, is that sport when managed properly, can work wonders at building good relationships between people, even when there is a history of divide in their past.

David Dunn

8th December 2011, 09:27

I don't know Dirk, I think there is some selective memory going on here. Sport has been a part of Shorinji Kempo for many years.

I think Colin is right here. Some time ago Mizuno sensei told me that Prince Takeda (?) was the patron of the All-Japan Shorinji Kempo Organisation, and his early certificates were signed by Doshin So and Takeda. The latter was also in the Japan Olympic committee. Anyway, Mizuno sensei argued with me, the purpose and spirit of the Olympics is the same as budo.

dirk.bruere

8th December 2011, 14:04

I think Colin is right here. Some time ago Mizuno sensei told me that Prince Takeda (?) was the patron of the All-Japan Shorinji Kempo Organisation, and his early certificates were signed by Doshin So and Takeda. The latter was also in the Japan Olympic committee. Anyway, Mizuno sensei argued with me, the purpose and spirit of the Olympics is the same as budo.
That might have been true 100 years ago, but certainly by 1936 it was a corrupted ideal. I see that as being the future of SK if we go the sport route.

Rob Gassin

9th December 2011, 11:45

Shorinji Kempo in Indonesia has not changed. It has always embraced sporting competition. It is the effort of the Indonesian Federation which is now spreading SK to other SE Asian countries such as Vietnam Laos, Brunei etc. Therefore it is not surprising that they have adopted the Indonesian SK culture.

Few realise that Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world. Given this fact, SK would never have been acceptable if it's buddhist based philosophy had been promoted. There are apparently subtle differences in the wording of the Indonesian Dokun to make it more palatable to the Muslim majority. More surprisingly, the emphasis on the history of SK is quite different to that taught in the west. I have been advised by 2 Indonesian Kenshi that there is much less emphasis on Doshin So and his war experiences and more emphasis on the role of Bodhidharma bringing MA from India to China.

Althought the techniques taught in Indonesia are the same as the ones taught in the west, the emphasis in the underlying philosophy is quite different. As a result, many Indonesian (and BTW also Japanese) kenshi would find it difficult to understand the strong disapproval of people like Panu and Dirk to participation in SK sporting competition.

As a final observation. I have previously read and heard that Doshin So himself did not disapprove of certain kenshi entering Karate competitions to prove the effectiveness of SK. Such behaviour was apparently banned in 1984, several years after Doshin So's death.

So, maybe we should all accept that there is more than 1 way of understanding and living in the SK way and accept and embrace our differences.

dirk.bruere

9th December 2011, 20:10

Here's a Christian proverb:
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Rob Gassin

10th December 2011, 02:47

Here's a Christian proverb:
What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?

Do souls exist? :)

atonfrc

10th December 2011, 12:06

I think so... But the question would be "what is soul for you?" ;)

Ok, off topic - LOL

I'm just kidding, of course.

Gassho!:karatekid

ryama23

12th December 2011, 15:33

That might have been true 100 years ago, but certainly by 1936 it was a corrupted ideal. I see that as being the future of SK if we go the sport route.

What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?
Reply With Quote

Some SK branches and Kenshi have a fun tournament that they all appeared to enjoy and benefit from and the response turns into a comparison with Hitler's Olympics and forfeiture of soul?! :look:

hwijaya

12th December 2011, 19:15

Gassho,

I think the teaching from Indonesian Shorinji Kempo's founders have played great influence on Indonesian kenshis. Esprit de corps mentality, kohai-senpai code of ethics, and the brotherhood of all kenshis are very much shown during the practice or the competition. During randori practice or competition, when a kenshi got hit or kick, he/she gassho rei to the kicker/puncher. The underlying principles are: you learned that your defense is sucks; thank your kicker/puncher; it is better to get kicked/punched during internal practice/competition rather than getting it on the street/outside the dojo.

The name of Indonesian Federation in Indonesian language is more accurate to reflect this rather than the English translation.

PERKEMI: Persaudaraan Beladiri Kempo Indonesia (Indonesian Shorinji Kempo Federation).
Persaudaraan = Brotherhood
Beladiri = Self Defense

Official website: http://www.perkemi.or.id/simperkemi/

If any of my comments are offensive, I apologize for the inconvenience.

Kesshu,
J.H.Wijaya
Southbay Shorinji Kempo

Panu Suominen

18th December 2011, 09:51

Althought the techniques taught in Indonesia are the same as the ones taught in the west, the emphasis in the underlying philosophy is quite different. As a result, many Indonesian (and BTW also Japanese) kenshi would find it difficult to understand the strong disapproval of people like Panu and Dirk to participation in SK sporting competition.

Mostly I am just strongly disapproving the lack of common sense..

I have no problem about participating to the SK sporting competitions as such but there are multiple issues that get mixed up here
(Are competitions bad in general? Do they belong to SK? What kind of rules there should be in SK competitions? And what is proper conduct of kenshi towards the other competitors? And so on...).

My last post did not critique entering competitions but the bad behavior expressed in some of the posts. However those posts kind of made the point that competitions do seem to create wrong kind of attitudes...

But for me the the biggest problem here are the rules of the competition (randori). They just don't make any sense. With those rules on is not measuring ability in SK nor in general fighting. It seems like people practicing the card game of bridge would hold competition of checkers and claim holding bridge competition.

When watching the randori clips provided one can easily observe that the protective gears do not fit to the training SK emphasizes. The tactics used are not the same that are sensible in self-defence. Rules are just too similar to sport karate or tae kwon do. Why create same thing again? Why just not to practice sport karate or tae kwon do if that is what one wants?

Panu Suominen

18th December 2011, 10:05

it is better to get kicked/punched during internal practice/competition rather than getting it on the street/outside the dojo.

I agree with the general attitude expressed... But if it is supposed to mean that on learns self defense skills in competitions I have to say you are wrong.

Getting you defense work on competition has nothing to do with getting it work on the street. In self-defense situation you are punched/kicked first when you even know the situation has begun and after that you have to start dig you way out of the harms way with blood running on your face and with all the "fun" effects of adrenaline messing things up. Even if compared to street fight (where both are aware of the fight starting but not backing out) competitions (at least with these kind of rules) have very little to give.

Because suggesting practical study has some ethical problems here is some material for academical one. Compare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUK9Sgy6J8
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj9VgnQCBfA
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCQYTXcJ70

In my mind the first has nothing in common with the last two. The ability needed in the first one is unlikely going to help you in the encounters similar to those in the other clips.

Tripitaka of AA

18th December 2011, 14:43

Thanks Panu. Those clips were very... educational.

The second clip, of the Russian Bouncers was particularly graphic and brutal. The compilation of their "finest moments" seems to have been made by the Bouncers themselves (complete with posed group photos), to celebrate their efficiency at brawling. Their greatest achievements seemed to be from the surprise attack, or "sucker punch", where the victim was at very close range and the Bouncer gave no visual clue to his next movement. Followed up by 4v1 unrestrained attacks on victims who are offering no resistance, this clip seems to offer a very sobering lesson to those who practice Shorinji kempo - or ANY martial art. Fighting is not Budo. Budo is only slightly connected with fighting - although it can allow people to assume they wil be able to fight. The real fighters have no rules except their own.

JL.

18th December 2011, 17:17

Gassho!

- I'm sorry, the only thing that reminded me of Shorinjikempo in the first clip were the dogi and hoi.

- I couldn't watch the second one, not having an account.

- Regarding the "street fights" in the third video, it is my opinion that (actual) Shorinjikempo training would, or at the very least could, be a distinct edge in situations like those, since not a single person there seemed to know how to throw a decent punch (let alone kick) or how to defend themselves effectively and efficiently. I only watched through about a third of it, I should add, because it became quite repetitive.
To preempt misunderstandings, I'm not saying that Shorinjikempo or any other martial art will ever make someone invincible or invulnerable in a fight. I'm not even saying that it'll be enough to prevent a fight or getting hurt in one (for attempts at the latter I recommend to look up the SPEAR system).
But I'm quite sure that knowing how to strike and block will give any martial artist a distinct edge for winning (i. e. surviving) a fight like that. And obviously one of the first and most fundamental lessons for self-defense any martial art I've ever sampled teaches is not getting into fights. Which also cannot be trained in a free fight competition (I know there was a point regarding the original topic in here somewhere ^^).
To end this I'll recite what a Sensei taught us about Randori being taught at Hombu: "Randori wa hokei no unyo-ho." Randori is the appliciation of Hokei, i. e. Shorinjikempo syllabus techniques. Can someone point out even a single attempt(!) at applying Shorinjikempo Hokei in the first clip? I can't, so for me it's just not Shorinjikempo Randori. As Panu-sempai put it, it's virtually indistinguishable from competitions in TKD, MSK etc. So why not just do that instead?

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Panu Suominen

18th December 2011, 19:18

- I couldn't watch the second one, not having an account.
Darn... I was probably autologged so I did not notice need to have an account. Like David explained the clip is about Russian "bouncers" hit first surprise attack and then press on with the gang. Very unfair but effective. I posted this clip to show that real situations do not resemble ring fighting. Attacker has no reason to tell you that he is going to attack.

- Regarding the "street fights" in the third video, it is my opinion that (actual) Shorinjikempo training [could help]. [...] Can someone point out even a single attempt(!) at applying Shorinjikempo Hokei in the first clip?

I am not arguing whether shorinji kempo helps or not in some situations. That depends on the training and individual. But like Jan says the first clip is very different from SK training and principles. It is also very different from more realistic scenarios one might encounter. Thus one should not make claims about its benefits on street (nor it being shorinji kempo competition at all).

But it is better to get kicked in the competition or practices than in the street. Not because it would make you more ready for the streets but for you just not being on the street. :)

Tripitaka of AA

18th December 2011, 20:41

Referring to the latest News reports from Egypt, one of the key components of Self-Defence training (apart from my favourite - Not Being There In The First place), would be how to take a beating without suffering life-threatening injury. The 2" long metal truncheons, raining down on people's heads might well be unavoidable, so finding a safe posture to recieve the blows might be the option to preserve your life. See the video on here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075683/The-brave-women-Middle-East-Female-protesters-brutally-beaten-metal-poles-vicious-soldiers-drag-girls-streets-hair-day-shame.html) for an example (video here (http://www.youtube.com/verify_controversy?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3D4iboFV-yeTE%26feature%3Dplayer_embedded), but you may need a YouTube account to view it).

hwijaya

19th December 2011, 00:07

Gassho,

I know the street fighting is totally different than the randori, however, Shorinji Kempo was developed by Kaiso, who I remember reading (at least) one fight on the train. I also remember former member Kimpatsu (Tony Kehoe) got a medal from the Japan police in defending a woman during in a street fight (CMIIW), I think the story was told in e-budo.

My former Sempais in Indonesia also got involved in fights. One was an Indonesian special forces (at that time back in 1980s). I don't want to tell story in detail but I just want to make a point that Shorinji Kempo is effective in street fight, if you can apply hokei effectively. I think another former e-budo member, Ade Sensei also is a policeman (?). He would know better if he ever use Shorinji Kempo during his daily duty.

Kesshu,
J.H. Wijaya
Southbay Shorinji Kempo

JL.

19th December 2011, 09:03

Gassho!

I think another former e-budo member, Ade Sensei also is a policeman (?). He would know better if he ever use Shorinji Kempo during his daily duty.Yes, he is. I think the topic came up here before and do seem to recall him saying that he wasn't allowed to use Shorinjikempo while on duty.
Apart from that as written above I agree with the idea that Shorinjikempo (as well as other MAs) can be helpful in self-defense. In fact, it would be a bit pointless (though not completely) if it didn't have any application in that area at all. Also I believe that the situation accurately described above by Panu-sempai (sucker punch, blood-streaked face etc.) is more of a worst case scenario than an average situation of confrontation with violence in everyday life. In fact, during a violence avoidance seminar by the Berlin police we were taught that the average person (at least in this country) hardly ever encounters violence. In another eBudo thread a while back Olly-sempai from the Southampton Uni Dojo recounted some experiences with violence. In one it was 'enough' for him to just shout at an aggressor from a distance to make him run away (yes, Olly's just that good ;) ).
I also think that it's very helpful to at least now and then be taught by people with some real experience encountering violence, like police officers, soldiers etc.
And as a last point I'd say that if nothing else free fight competitions can actually help to some degree in getting used to adrenaline-ridden situations. That's my experience, at least.

The original points still stand though, IMHO:
- Martial arts training is a far cry from the sort of 'ugly' violence one might encounter on the streets.
- The kind of free fight competitions we're seeing in Shorinjikempo these days are far removed from an actual application of Shorinjikempo Hokei.
These two combined raise serious doubts as to the sensibility of these competitions.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Ewok

19th December 2011, 17:43

I'll need to dig out my notes, but Kaiso did say "if you want to learn to fight, look somewhere else".

And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at - the first video looks pretty much like every Japanese randori tournament I've seen... almost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5MDZsVZ0p4&feature=fvst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt3hHBmclgo

Except in Japan its not just landing a single hit, usually you have to show some semblance of hokei being applied. Also showing proper sportsmanship and courtesy can make a big difference - the fellow at 3:05 in the first video would have lost quite a few points for reacting as he did.

Closest thing to recent rules I've had to follow is this: http://marukado.web.infoseek.co.jp/20050122-/rule38.html

"University Students Taikai Unyouhou Rules"
Basics:
Must be over 2-dan, be in good health, understands the principle of unyouhou
Must have/wear face guard, chest protector, mouth piece, fall cup
Attacker/defender will be done one at a time, for up to 1 minute each

Judging criteria:
Points are given to both the attacker and defender
Banned moves will result in point deduction, dangerous behaviour will mean a forfeit
Scoring is done by two sub-umpires
Maximum of 50 points, less than 40 is the norm

Scoring:
Yukou (lit. "valid")
- A good hit, would do light damage without protection
Attacker: +1 point
Defender: -1 point

Waza-ari (lit. "has skill")
- Good posture and maai, and a good hit. Would do significant damage without protection
Attacker: +3 points
Defender: -3 points

Mukou (lit. "invalid")
- Posture is insufficient, or a hit is made but the arm/leg is fully extended and would not have any effect
0 points

Hanzoku (lit. "foul")
- Attacks to jodan (face/head), or moves that break the rules
-2 points

Inshou-ten ("Impression" points)
- Points between +/-0-3 given after the match to each kenshi based on the judges impression of how well they performed.

In Japan, depending on the number of entrants, they will only announce the top one or two scoring kenshi, everyone else doesn't get to find out what their final scores are.

Permitted waza:
- See the "Shorinjikempo Examiners Umpire Course Materials" :cry:
- Regarding attacks to jodan:
- Any attack to the front faceplate that does not hit is allowed.
- Uraken, Kagizuki, Furizuki, and attacks to the rear of the head protector are strictly prohibited
- Kicks to the head are prohibited
- Regarding attacks to chudan:
- Except for attacks using the knee, all is allowed
- Regarding attacks to gedan:
- Only ashiharai (leg sweeps) is allowed
- Any move found in hokei (eg. Keri-ten-ichi) is allowed
- Kamae must be Shorinji Kempo kamae

Prohibited waza:
- Kicks below the knees, kariashi
- Sukuinage, sukui-kubinage, torataoshi (?)
- Any nage waza
- Grappling, pulling of uniform
- Attacking kenshi who have fallen
- Any attacks to the groin
- Any techniques considered to not be part of Shorinji Kempo

The best way I've heard SK and sports being compared is this - you compete in a sport to win, you compete in randori to not lose. I'm sure that's in my fukudokuhon too...

Its hard to say that competitions, taikai and randori is "bad" - it was a big way of pushing SK forward in its early years. Big changes have been made to make things safer and I hear grumbles about "back in my day...", if the focus is right then why not include it in taikai?

Kari MakiKuutti

20th December 2011, 08:08

I'll need to dig out my notes, but Kaiso did say "if you want to learn to fight, look somewhere else".
Kaiso said many things, for example:

Thus the kind of scenes where one person suddenly knocks down a partner and says, "Pretty impressive, huh? Do you give? Well then, you follow me!" have no place in our organization. "I want to brag about my physical power. I want to learn a way of always winning fights." If that alone is your goal, then Shorinji Kempo is not for you, and I recommend that you find another martial art.
(1973, lecture at University camp)
http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/kaiso/26.html

Learning self-defense is one of the goals. Helping others is one of the goals. That means being able to fight if necessary.

Panu Suominen

21st December 2011, 06:25

And I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at - the first video looks pretty much like every Japanese randori tournament I've seen... almost.

Almost? One huge difference is the gloves.

And the rules you posted are little bit better but still don't make much sense. Did I read right? Attacks to head are fouls? Yet most of our atemi in basic forms targets head. Like embu competitions rules seem to emphasise the subjective opinion of judges (was it proper hit? was it shorinji kempo at all?). This is not good when it comes to testing ones ability. The adversary should provide the testing ground not judges.

[QUOTE=Ewok;493372]if the focus is right then why not include it in taikai?/QUOTE]
Maybe because it looks like shit and makes SK a laughing-stock to anyone with a little knowledge about things?

John P Taylor

21st December 2011, 14:26

I've been thinking about this for a while, so here goes...

I have a huge problem with randori competiton. In particular the justification that rules-based sparring is a necessary part of self-defence training. It is not. If you want to learn to apply hokei in self-defence situations, un-choreographed but structured, scenario-based 'pressure-testing', carefully supervised by an instructor who has some experience of facing those scenarios in real life must be a part of your training. Nothing can substitute for this.

This training must be guided by conflict management princples that take account of two key points. Firstly, what physical force your local legal system allows a member of the public to use and under what circumstances. Secondly, what effects the level and type of aggression shown by an 'attacker' should have on the 'defender's' response.

I have no problem with instructors who cannot provide such training. Many are superb from a technical standpoint. However, in my view, they be honest with their students. i.e., they should be very careful about making any claim that learning SK as it apppears in the techinical syllabus will confer self-defence ability on their students.

Dancing around a dojo (or an international arena) trading kicks and punches is a pointless distraction and a waste of time (although I'll admit that I enjoyed doing it when I was in my 20s).

John P Taylor

21st December 2011, 15:41

However, in my view, they be honest with their students.

Correction: I meant "...they must be honest..."

Panu Suominen

21st December 2011, 17:49

I've been thinking about this for a while[...]
Well tought...

colin linz

21st December 2011, 23:42

Originally we were discussing the merits of including competition in Shorinji Kempo. We now appear to be discussing the effectiveness of randori as tool for the development of self defence capability.

Like John, I also used to enjoy randori when younger. I'm not so sure about it being a useless activity. Certainly the modern use of protective gear has changed it somewhat. Kaiso was well aware of this concern. I think it was the Fukodokohon that had a section on Kaiso's thoughts on how rules and protective gear effect the emphasis on certain techniques when training.

My take on it is that if it is an enjoyable activity, and a recognised part of Shorinji Kempo, then let those that enjoy it do so. It is a just one tool in a toolbox full of tools. None of the tools can do everything, and at different times one tool may have some advantages over another. If randori is an engaging experience for some, then that alone gives it value.

Ewok

22nd December 2011, 01:48

Almost? One huge difference is the gloves.

Oh, yeah. I think the only glove I'd worn are really thin padded ones (http://www.ozaki-sk.co.jp/system/dataimage/20060818201737.jpg) so I don't make a mess of my knuckles on the chest protector, but not big boxing gloves.

And the rules you posted are little bit better but still don't make much sense. Did I read right? Attacks to head are fouls? Yet most of our atemi in basic forms targets head. Like embu competitions rules seem to emphasise the subjective opinion of judges (was it proper hit? was it shorinji kempo at all?). This is not good when it comes to testing ones ability. The adversary should provide the testing ground not judges.

These are older university taikai rules, I'll need to ask and see if I can get better ones - there is probably even a good translation around somewhere.

What I was told is that attacks directly to the front of the faceguard that hit just hard enough to depress the plastic is OK, but attacks to the side (furizuki) or rear are not allowed.

Maybe because it looks like shit and makes SK a laughing-stock to anyone with a little knowledge about things?

Well, we should just giveup on taikai all together then.

Dancing around a dojo (or an international arena) trading kicks and punches is a pointless distraction and a waste of time (although I'll admit that I enjoyed doing it when I was in my 20s).

Thats my point. I enjoy it - if I have to waste week practicing embu and then spend a precious sunday at a taikai, I might has well have some fun getting beat up by 4-dans as well.

Rob Gassin

22nd December 2011, 03:07

Maybe because it looks like shit and makes SK a laughing-stock to anyone with a little knowledge about things?

Panu,
I am so happy you wrote this. This is exactly my thought regarding SK randori, as it is practiced in competition (and grading). It is too 'stop & go', making it look ridiculous and unrealistic and frankly - embarassing.

My understanding of randori, is that it is a way of practicing hokei, under a stressful situation. If it achieves this aim, then it is worth it. If on the other hand, randori degenerates into a point scoring exercise, then it's value is dubious.

John Taylor's suggestions are excellent but in my experience , it is very difficult to reproduce realistic self-defence situations in the dojo. I have trained in such situations with the aggressor in full body armour, attacking with street-like zeal however, given the padding involved, it is nothing like street fighting and relatively low stress.

I am not sure of the best way of getting ready for a real street/pub fight situation, other than getting in street/pub fight situations!!!

Cheers, Rob

John P Taylor

22nd December 2011, 03:17

Originally we were discussing the merits of including competition in Shorinji Kempo. We now appear to be discussing the effectiveness of randori as tool for the development of self defence capability.

I noticed the drift before I posted. However, I think the questions are linked. Teaching self defence was one of kaiso's aims but launching a new internationally-recognised combat sport format was not.

Like John, I also used to enjoy randori when younger. I'm not so sure about it being a useless activity.

I don't think that randori is useless and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I believe that randori is an essential part of SK.

I have just re-watched the un'yo ho section of the Shorinji Kempo Technical Curriculum Primary Level 1 DVD. I think that the structured excercies shown are a really good place to start learning to use hokei techniques spontaneously without prearrangement. To my mind this is an essential pre-requisite for learning to use hokei in self-defence.

What I think is useless is rule-bound, point-scoring competitive 'fights'. They just don't feel like SK to me.

Let me put it this way: when you are the senior in a pair practicing randori is your motivation for attacking always to develop your partner's defensive skills? Are you matching your attacks to the defender's skill level and expecting him or her to counter? Do you sincerely hope that he or she will counter your attack effectively? If he or she fails do you sincerely hope that the experience will teach them something new? If the answers to all of these questions are 'yes' then you're doing SK randori. Otherwise you are just fighting. In fact, if the skill disparity is great and you're really enjoying kicking a*se, you're just bullying.

Panu Suominen

22nd December 2011, 03:18

Originally we were discussing the merits of including competition in Shorinji Kempo. We now appear to be discussing the effectiveness of randori as tool for the development of self defence capability.
Yep. It changed to that after the people that very into randori competition started to thought that the competition had something to do with fighting and being the best. My point was that these have nothing to do with each other. Also there was this trash talking side.

Like John, I also used to enjoy randori when younger. I'm not so sure about it being a useless activity.

I enjoy lots of things but that does not mean those things should start to be pushed forward as being part of Shorinji Kempo as an Olympic sport. Also people should be told that competing with these kind of rules makes it a game of tag, nothing more. Now some people seem to that it tests who is the best.

Well, we should just giveup on taikai all together then.

No. We just should not give so much emphasis on competitions. If they exists only because they are enjoyable to do then it should be clear for everybody that winning in them has no value.

For example if some serious ancient sword art would held big event in which on part would be hitting each other with foam sticks for fun it would be OK. They would not make claims based on that competition about who can fight or try to make it an Olympic sport. They would not change their philosophy or what they are practicing because it will not work with the foam stick. Nor they would try to advertise their art using this foam fighting. Why would they? After all it just a meaningless play for laughs and has very little to do with the art itself...

John P Taylor

22nd December 2011, 04:04

I have trained in such situations with the aggressor in full body armour, attacking with street-like zeal however, given the padding involved, it is nothing like street fighting and relatively low stress.

More fun than point sparring, though, wasn't it ;-)

I am not sure of the best way of getting ready for a real street/pub fight situation, other than getting in street/pub fight situations!!!

Unfortunately, there is some truth in that. More from the perspective of confronting the psychological factors involved in facing real violence, than of learning to use physical techniques. However...I wouldn't use the term 'street/pub fight situation' as a stand in for 'self-defence situation'. A toe-to-toe brawl is just one scenario. And if self-defence is your aim it is one that you will avoid unless your back's really against the wall. There is a big difference between 'wanting to be able to defend myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability' and 'wanting to kick a*se in a street fight'. I would suggest that one of these wishes is more in line with kaiso's philosophy than the other.

oriesama

22nd December 2011, 12:14

I'm sorry for going away for a while :D

Panu,
I am so happy you wrote this. This is exactly my thought regarding SK randori, as it is practiced in competition (and grading). It is too 'stop & go', making it look ridiculous and unrealistic and frankly - embarassing.

My understanding of randori, is that it is a way of practicing hokei, under a stressful situation. If it achieves this aim, then it is worth it. If on the other hand, randori degenerates into a point scoring exercise, then it's value is dubious.

John Taylor's suggestions are excellent but in my experience , it is very difficult to reproduce realistic self-defence situations in the dojo. I have trained in such situations with the aggressor in full body armour, attacking with street-like zeal however, given the padding involved, it is nothing like street fighting and relatively low stress.

I am not sure of the best way of getting ready for a real street/pub fight situation, other than getting in street/pub fight situations!!!

Cheers, Rob

I think the discussion is now widen to effectiveness of randori as self defense :)
in my dojo there is three variant of a single waza, they are:

basic variant >> the kihon, and how we do it in training or kumi enbu
randori variant >> how we apply the waza in randori, in these variant, we thought how to use our gloves to block, how to aim attack and getting the point (wazaaari or ippon)
practical variant >> for everyday use

and actually, the common variant thought is the basic, the other two is thought as an intermezzo (like when kenshies are boring, our senpais bring the do out and then we study randori :D )
by the way, does anyone here from Russia? I'd would like to hear from Russian Kenshi about their request to honbu, asking honbu to thought how to do randori :)

IMHO, the randori variant is sucks :p ( because I'm the enbu guy :laugh: ) and we can't use it in street fighting.

But still... If All senpai here would to try the Indonesian's Randori, i think that will be very unforgettable experience :)