PDA

View Full Version : Please help me out>>>



Patrick
5th March 2001, 05:22
I studied Shorinji Kempo off and on for several years, attaining the rank of green belt. I became too busy with college and then the early part of my career to continue, and now I am considering going back.

My local sensei is absolutely phenomenal, IMO he is the best instructor, irregardless of style, in the area. However, I believe he withdrew fromthe WSKO several years back over philosophical differences, i.e. he felt American students were not interested in the religious aspect (and he's right to an extent. I am Catholic, and while not devout per se, and am not interested in praying to Buddhist gods, although I recognize and appreciate the more esoteric parts of the style's beliefs). Our instructor does not give the written tests concerning philosophy et al. when testing for promotion. Does this exclude me from a thorough participation in Shorinji Kempo? Can I be a successful student? If indeed we are no longer part of WSKO can I ever hope to travel to Japan to study there, or to attend North American seminars taught by HQ instructors?

I am very distressed about this. I love the style and my instructor but I don't want to be hamstrung because I don't subscribe to all of the beliefs.

colin linz
5th March 2001, 10:02
Patrick,

I strongly recommend that you read some of the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo. I really don't believe that you will find that it differs greatly to many Christian concepts. It definitely does not require you to pray to any Buddhist gods. In fact they try to promote a more self reliant attitude, and not get to tied up with gods. They believe that it's a waste of time debating about them, and that we are better too spend this time thinking of how we can improve ourselves, and gaining a better understanding of the world that we live in now.

I would advise that you join a WSKO Doin/Dojo. It will save you any problems regarding training at other Doin/Dojo's. You will also be eligible for national, and international Taikai's.


Gassho
Colin Linz

Anders Pettersson
5th March 2001, 12:17
Gassho.

Hi Patrick and Colin, welcome to e-budo both of you! :)

Patrick, please note that it is an e-budo rule to sign your posts with your full name. :nono:

Patrick could you let us know what Shorinji Kempo branch you practice in and the name of your teacher.
If I get that information it is easy to find out if the branch still is a member of WSKO.

As for the philosophical aspect of Shorinji Kempo it is important and shouldn't be left out. But it is not really a problem if one is a believer in another religion. Take Indonesia as an example, most people in Indonesia are Muslims and it works alright with them. I think that they have over 500 Shorinji Kempo dojos in Indonesia.

As of your question of taking part in training seminars etc.
If you are not a WSKO member you will not be allowed to take part in any official training camps or go to Hombu and practice.
As Colin said, if you want to do Shorinji Kempo you better join a branch that belong to WSKO.

All kenshi should know that for a rank to be official in Shorinji Kempo one must have an WSKO membership-card and also one should receive a certificate from Hombu.
If you don't get this from your teacher then he is a fraud just taking your money.

On a side note if your teacher is not a member in WSKO he can not call what he teaches for 'Shorinji Kempo'. The name 'Shorinji Kempo' is a protected trademark and can only be used by WSKO members.


I hope this answers some of your questions.

Take care.

Patrick
5th March 2001, 13:42
Originally posted by Anders Pettersson
Gassho.

Hi Patrick and Colin, welcome to e-budo both of you! :)

Patrick, please note that it is an e-budo rule to sign your posts with your full name. :nono:


Sorry =)


Originally posted by Anders Pettersson

Patrick could you let us know what Shorinji Kempo branch you practice in and the name of your teacher.
If I get that information it is easy to find out if the branch still is a member of WSKO.



Buffalo, NY branch. Instructor is Hiroaki Kimura.

Thanks for your imput.
Patrick Moen

George Hyde
5th March 2001, 14:15
Hi All,

Just found this via Google...

http://www2.pcom.net/kimura/index.htm

You'll notice that Mr Kimura claims membership of WSKO up to 1997. To the uninformed reader this no doubt indicates some level of credibility - to the informed this indicates the opposite.

The fact that Mr Kimura seeks credibility from reference to his defunct WSKO membership whilst overtly claiming to teach Shorinji Kempo will be of great interest to WSKO and their legal advisers.

It's also interesting to see that whilst (as you say) he chose to distance himself from Shorinji Kempo philosophy he still makes comprehensive reference to it and claims to concur with its basic aims and objectives.

The question I advise you to have answered is this - Since he seems to be teaching Shorinji Kempo, why does he choose not to avail himself of WSKO membership and the access this provides for his students to higher level instruction than he himself is able to impart?

Hope this helps.

Later,

Patrick
5th March 2001, 14:33
Originally posted by George Hyde
Hi All,

Just found this via Google...

http://www2.pcom.net/kimura/index.htm

You'll notice that Mr Kimura claims membership of WSKO up to 1997. To the uninformed reader this no doubt indicates some level of credibility - to the informed this indicates the opposite.

The fact that Mr Kimura seeks credibility from reference to his defunct WSKO membership whilst overtly claiming to teach Shorinji Kempo will be of great interest to WSKO and their legal advisers.

It's also interesting to see that whilst (as you say) he chose to distance himself from Shorinji Kempo philosophy he still makes comprehensive reference to it and claims to concur with its basic aims and objectives.

The question I advise you to have answered is this - Since he seems to be teaching Shorinji Kempo, why does he choose not to avail himself of WSKO membership and the access this provides for his students to higher level instruction than he himself is able to impart?

Hope this helps.

Later,

Well I have little understanding of the relationship between WSKO and its branches. WSKO website still indicates a Buffalo branch, altho without any info like most of the others.

I remember when he withdrew, it was a pretty big deal. It was my impression that his students were not appreciative of the religious/philosophical requirements imposed by WSKO (i.e. no one wanted to take written beliefs tests when they were suddenyl required around 1996, they felt it was inappropriate as far as personal beliefs. Most agreed with the tenets of SK, but didn't want it imposed). Keep in mind this is all from personal recollection of a few years past so I may be off a little.

As I said, I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Kimura, he is an excellent teacher and very good person.

Patrick
5th March 2001, 14:41
Well, having just looked at that website noted above, it seems MR. Kimura is now teaching his "own" style based on SK, or something to that effect, and beginning to incorporate Kendo as well. Not good for the purists, eh?

Patrick
5th March 2001, 14:46
Originally posted by Patrick
Well, having just looked at that website noted above, it seems MR. Kimura is now teaching his "own" style based on SK, or something to that effect, and beginning to incorporate Kendo as well. Not good for the purists, eh?

Here's quote from the website:
"While Shorinji Kempo is not shy about its meditations on these issues, one of its fundamental tenets is that no one person or organization can make decisions for you. You must decide what to believe, what to accept and what to reject, what is true and what is not. "

Patrick Moen

Anders Pettersson
5th March 2001, 17:34
Hi Patrick.

Just for your info I edited some of the vB-code in your second post.

As for Shorinji Kempo in Buffalo I believe there is an official branch there now, If I remember correctly it was started by a former member of Kimura's dojo. But I don't know much details since I am over here in Sweden.

On the WSKO homepage it is listed a Buffalo branch, but there is no address.
I will see if I can find out the address for you (or maybe some other e-budo members know it).
That is if you still want to do proper Shorinji Kempo of course?

I have also heard some rumor of why Kimura no longer is a member in WSKO, but I leave that to people who know things for fact.

Gary Dolce
5th March 2001, 18:09
Patrick,

I have practiced Shorinji Kempo in the eastern US since 1981 and met Mr. Kimura several times before he left WSKO. I do not know the full details of the circumstances under which he left the organization, but I have heard enough to believe that the decision was not entirely Mr. Kimura's, contrary to what he seems to have indicated to you.

I know that Mr. Kimura has always had a problem teaching the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, but I have never understood his reasons. Many of us have taught Shorinji Kempo for years and have had no problem incorporating the philosophy into our practice. It is very rare that someone objects on religious grounds and it is usually because they are uninformed. As stated earlier, our philosophy does not require "praying to Buddhist gods" and if this is the way Mr. Kimura characterizes it, he is misleading you. He is correct that the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo places responsibility on the individual to separate right from wrong, but he seems to have decided not to give you the option of knowing what the philosophy behind Shorinji Kempo really is. He certainly should not continue to use the Shorinji Kempo name if he is no longer teaching Shorinji Kempo.

By the way, written test requirements on Shorinji Kempo philosophy were not suddenly imposed in 1996, but instead have been part of the curriculum for at least as long as I have been practicing and I believe much longer. Again, I believe he is misleading you if he characterizes the sudden imposition of that requirement as the reason for leaving WSKO in 1997. I am not surprised that students there don't want to take written tests if they have never had to before. However, my experience has been that no one objects to them when they are told up-front that they are a necessary part of the promotion process and everyone has to do them.

As others have said, you are missing out on a lot of opportunities by not being part of an official Branch. I believe there is currently an official Branch in Buffalo run by a former student of Mr. Kimura, but I don't have any contact information handy. I will try to get that information and post it later.

Patrick
5th March 2001, 19:02
Originally posted by Anders Pettersson
Hi Patrick.

Just for your info I edited some of the vB-code in your second post.

As for Shorinji Kempo in Buffalo I believe there is an official branch there now, If I remember correctly it was started by a former member of Kimura's dojo. But I don't know much details since I am over here in Sweden.

On the WSKO homepage it is listed a Buffalo branch, but there is no address.
I will see if I can find out the address for you (or maybe some other e-budo members know it).
That is if you still want to do proper Shorinji Kempo of course?

I have also heard some rumor of why Kimura no longer is a member in WSKO, but I leave that to people who know things for fact.

Sure, I would love to see who is teaching around here. I sent you an email =)

Patrick Moen

Patrick
5th March 2001, 19:10
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Patrick,

I have practiced Shorinji Kempo in the eastern US since 1981 and met Mr. Kimura several times before he left WSKO. I do not know the full details of the circumstances under which he left the organization, but I have heard enough to believe that the decision was not entirely Mr. Kimura's, contrary to what he seems to have indicated to you.

I know that Mr. Kimura has always had a problem teaching the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, but I have never understood his reasons. Many of us have taught Shorinji Kempo for years and have had no problem incorporating the philosophy into our practice. It is very rare that someone objects on religious grounds and it is usually because they are uninformed. As stated earlier, our philosophy does not require "praying to Buddhist gods" and if this is the way Mr. Kimura characterizes it, he is misleading you. He is correct that the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo places responsibility on the individual to separate right from wrong, but he seems to have decided not to give you the option of knowing what the philosophy behind Shorinji Kempo really is. He certainly should not continue to use the Shorinji Kempo name if he is no longer teaching Shorinji Kempo.

By the way, written test requirements on Shorinji Kempo philosophy were not suddenly imposed in 1996, but instead have been part of the curriculum for at least as long as I have been practicing and I believe much longer. Again, I believe he is misleading you if he characterizes the sudden imposition of that requirement as the reason for leaving WSKO in 1997. I am not surprised that students there don't want to take written tests if they have never had to before. However, my experience has been that no one objects to them when they are told up-front that they are a necessary part of the promotion process and everyone has to do them.

As others have said, you are missing out on a lot of opportunities by not being part of an official Branch. I believe there is currently an official Branch in Buffalo run by a former student of Mr. Kimura, but I don't have any contact information handy. I will try to get that information and post it later.

Actually much of that was my personal impression, i.e. "Buddhist gods." Sorry for the poor choice of words. My memory is fuzzy and my understanding of SK philosophy admittedly lacking, but I recall reciting a creed which mentioned Dharma (who I believe to be a Buddhist or Hindu god). This made some very dedicated and highly skilled and intelligent students very uncomfortable.

I don't know when/where the written tests came from, but they were introduced suddenly at our school at least, and nobody wanted to write essays on philosophy. Not that they couldn't, as I said some were highly intelligent and well-versed in Asian teachings, but no one wanted to subjugate their own beliefs in order to be promoted. I'm sure SK and personal ideas can co-exist somehow.

John McCulloch
5th March 2001, 19:10
Hi Patrick,

There is an official WSKO Shorinji Kempo Branch in Buffalo. The Branch Master is Mr. Rodney Mayfield. You can call him on 716-863-9992. He should be able to answer your questions.

To add my two cents worth, the reason WSKO exists and that we have a trademark on the name "Shorinji Kempo" is to ensure that all Branch Masters teach the art correctly (in terms of technique and philosophy) and that they do it for the love of the art, not for money.

In addition, our Branch has several members who have deep religious beliefs (non-Buddhist) and they find no conflict with our philosophy.

Best regards,

Patrick
5th March 2001, 19:11
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
Patrick,

I have practiced Shorinji Kempo in the eastern US since 1981 and met Mr. Kimura several times before he left WSKO. I do not know the full details of the circumstances under which he left the organization, but I have heard enough to believe that the decision was not entirely Mr. Kimura's, contrary to what he seems to have indicated to you.

I know that Mr. Kimura has always had a problem teaching the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, but I have never understood his reasons. Many of us have taught Shorinji Kempo for years and have had no problem incorporating the philosophy into our practice. It is very rare that someone objects on religious grounds and it is usually because they are uninformed. As stated earlier, our philosophy does not require "praying to Buddhist gods" and if this is the way Mr. Kimura characterizes it, he is misleading you. He is correct that the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo places responsibility on the individual to separate right from wrong, but he seems to have decided not to give you the option of knowing what the philosophy behind Shorinji Kempo really is. He certainly should not continue to use the Shorinji Kempo name if he is no longer teaching Shorinji Kempo.

By the way, written test requirements on Shorinji Kempo philosophy were not suddenly imposed in 1996, but instead have been part of the curriculum for at least as long as I have been practicing and I believe much longer. Again, I believe he is misleading you if he characterizes the sudden imposition of that requirement as the reason for leaving WSKO in 1997. I am not surprised that students there don't want to take written tests if they have never had to before. However, my experience has been that no one objects to them when they are told up-front that they are a necessary part of the promotion process and everyone has to do them.

As others have said, you are missing out on a lot of opportunities by not being part of an official Branch. I believe there is currently an official Branch in Buffalo run by a former student of Mr. Kimura, but I don't have any contact information handy. I will try to get that information and post it later.

Looking forward to your obtaining that info^^

Actually much of that was my personal impression, i.e. "Buddhist gods." Sorry for the poor choice of words. My memory is fuzzy and my understanding of SK philosophy admittedly lacking, but I recall reciting a creed which mentioned Dharma (who I believe to be a Buddhist or Hindu god). This made some very dedicated and highly skilled and intelligent students very uncomfortable.

I don't know when/where the written tests came from, but they were introduced suddenly at our school at least, and nobody wanted to write essays on philosophy. Not that they couldn't, as I said some were highly intelligent and well-versed in Asian teachings, but no one wanted to subjugate their own beliefs in order to be promoted. I'm sure SK and personal ideas can co-exist somehow.

Patrick Moen

Patrick
5th March 2001, 21:02
Well, problem solved. I spoke to Rodney and I plan on starting with him this week. Thanks to all who assisted!

Patrick Moen

Steve Williams
5th March 2001, 21:04
Hi Patrick

Just thought I would add my input (well everyone else has ;) )

As said by many there have always been philosophy requirements as part of the Shorinji Kempo grading test.
When I started ('84) there were oral philosophy exams, these became a written exam in the late 80's (in UK anyway) I think that the dan-grade exams were always written.

As for the Dharma issue, I do not think that this refers to a particular entity, more to a general 'earth spirit' sort of like 'mother nature', this may be an over-simplification, perhaps Anders may have a better explaination.


I have many students train with me, from a large variety of spiritual backgrounds (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian etc...) and none of them have ever had or mention a problem with the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, perhaps it is Mr Kimura who has an issue with it and is then presenting it in a strange way ??


I hope that you do continue with your Shorinji Kempo training as it does have much to offer (in addition to the excellent self-defence/ fighting techniques).

luar
8th March 2001, 21:14
Originally posted by Steve Williams
I have many students train with me, from a large variety of spiritual backgrounds (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian etc...) and none of them have ever had or mention a problem with the philosophy of Shorinji Kempo, perhaps it is Mr Kimura who has an issue with it and is then presenting it in a strange way ??[/B]

It seems to me that if you are very secure in your spiritual beliefs, then other beliefs are nothing to be concerned about. I would also say that my knowledge of the world's three religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have some tenets that actually respect other beliefs. From what I see, the SK basic message is really not that different from other religions. I find the Seiku to be an excellent daily mantra that is motivational.

It's what you choose to make of it.

David Dunn
25th February 2004, 15:03
BTTT.

Since this relates to the recent thread, might as well review the information.