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Sum dum guy
24th June 2011, 22:34
Gassho,

Having studied Shorinji Kempo since 1981 (and left the system in 2003) I wounder if any one else has noticed, that despite there being many very competent, dedicated, hard working, giving, Instructors/Branch Masters around the world (of non-Japanese birth) not one of which have been promoted to 7th Dan. The full criteria for promotion being to long to list here.

Also one would note that quite a number of Japanese insutructors resident since a low grading 3rd / 4th dan overseas notably in England, France and America have been promoted.
What would the reasoning behind this be?

Gassho

Stewart Ogg
Sotai Kempo
Formerly Shorinji Kempo

JL.
25th June 2011, 08:22
Gassho!

Well, firstly I'd like to refer that question to the thread about the SEA games: If I'm not mistaken, the Indonesian federation head, Indra Kartasasmita-sensei, is currently holding Kyudan (9th). I'd assume that somewhere down the line he held Nanadan (7th) as well. ;)
Secondly, as to Europe, which I'm a bit more familiar with, there are a handful of Rokkudan (6th) sensei of non-Japanese descent. Most senior among them is to my knowledge Wunderle-sensei (Rokkudan, Junhanshi), head of the German federation. He started in the early seventies and is therefore probably one of the longest standing still active kenshi outside of Japan and Indonesia. I therefore assume that he'll be eligible for Nanadan at some not too distant point in the future. We'll probably see then whether there actually is an evil conspiracy not to allow anyone here to take that step.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

ken70
25th June 2011, 09:09
+1 with Jan :)

In France, we have six 6th dan (Rokudan) :

Jean-claude Lemarchand - Rokudan Junhanshi,
Hassan Nahji - Daikenshi Rokudan,
Frank Baldet - Daikenshi Rokudan (the French Federation president),
Thierry Montabord - Daikenshi Rokudan,
José Jimenez - Daikenshi Rokudan,
Michel Tesson - Daikenshi Rokudan.

It takes some times to progress and leveling up..... ;)

JL.
25th June 2011, 11:09
Gassho!

Six? Wow, I didn't know that! :nw:

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Sum dum guy
25th June 2011, 12:29
Gassho Jan & Laurnet,

Thanks for your reply.

I am pretty sure that there are probably several hundred Jun Hanshi rokudan around the world. All/ most of whom have been training for forty years or more.
One branch master here in NZ was the very first student to walk into a dojo here and sign up in 1971, still rokudan.
Several English branch masters like German and French started in the first year Mizuno Sensei & Aosaka Sensei started teaching in Europe.

Further I understand that personal circumstances may affect the individuals ability to go to Hombu for a grading, it starts getting expensive with grading fees and travel, (I sat on san dan for 10 years due to the costs involved) however I am sure there must be many people with the means to go to Hombu when eligible.
By the by Indra Kartasasmita was awarded Jun Hanshi in Dec 2007 after sitting on go dan for decades? despite going regularly to Hombu for director meetings.
To the best of knowledge (Please note my user Id) there is not one 7th dan foreigner or above.

My previous Instructor (Japanese) started in 1957 and was awarded 7th dan in 1976 19 years, I don't know what the average time it takes to get 7th dan in Japan is but it seems alot slower overseas.

Bearing in mind that the last techniques are in godan and
rokudan is all about how to apply Kyusho attacks.
Nana dan is recognition of being a fully qualified instructor.
Hachi dan is awarded for contribution to Shorinji and or your local community.
Ku dan is awarded for long service of contribution.

Also I note in the WSKO regulations that it is prohibited to with hold promotion with out strong reasons.

Having met many kenshi from around the world over the years, there technical standard usually far exceeds the minimum requirement to pass grading s and certainly their character and contributions to growing Shorinji is exemplary.

Personally I have only met two Instructors who I felt didn't live up to their grade (1 Japanese 7th dan, 1 Foreign 6th dan)

As I have met hundreds of both 6th & 7th dan (Combined total) in the 2 years I lived in Japan and over the years since I am proud to say that this is a style that develops top quality Instructors in every sense of the word.

Or is is this that we (Foreigners) are reluctant to apply for grading s?
Or could it be that we are trying to reach the same standard as the Hombu Instructors?

Any further thoughts?

Gassho

Stewart Ogg

Kari MakiKuutti
26th June 2011, 11:42
There are several more in Indonesia.
Example: http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/report/47.html

oriesama
27th June 2011, 04:15
Let me share a little bit stories about indonesian kenshi :)

a lot of Kenshies in Indonesia is stuck in the Ikkyu grade. The main reason was the high qualification to became yudansha, but, most of them believed that had more quality than any Caucasian kenshi (I'm sorry to say that, but that's what i heard from my senpai in dojo).

to became shodan in indonesia you must
be an active instructor in a qualified dojo
join the national gashuku twice
at least a year in ikkyu grade

my late father had delayed his opportunity to enter the nidan grade exam because his activity and stuck in the shodan grade (he became shodan in 1979, and had the opportunity in 1986)
meanwhile, his son is stuck in the sankyu grade for eternity LoL

so what became my point is, we in Indonesia consider grade was not really important. :) a lot of ikkyu kenshies finally forced by their yudansha senpai to take the yudansha exam.....

btw, i think Indra Kartasasmita Sensei is 8th Dan, CMIIW

Rob Gassin
27th June 2011, 22:16
Orie,

Until recently, the situation in Australia was similar. Gradings were very rare and progress very slow. I reached shodan (junkenshi) in 1987 and Nidan in 2007.

With regards to the requirements for black belt grades, we do expect ikkyu grade for 1 year and the kenshi to help in the running of the sessions. If we had to wait for National Gashuku, no one would ever get graded :). Australian Branches rarely have the opportunity to get together. The last WSKO training camp was in 2004. We are having another 1 this year - a 7 year gap!!!!! :(.

You have been very lucky in Indonesia, to have had people like Indra Kartasasmita Sensei, who is a good well respected local person with great organisational skills and an indominatable drive.

Cheers, Rob

JL.
27th June 2011, 23:14
Gassho!


Until recently, the situation in Australia was similar.Does that mean it has changed? That's good to hear …

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

colin linz
27th June 2011, 23:56
Our last one was that long ago that even I attended it :)

Rob Gassin
28th June 2011, 00:38
Gassho!

Does that mean it has changed? That's good to hear …

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Hi Jan,

Yes, It's all changing for the better and there are signs at last that SK might grow in Oz.

Cheers,

Maro
28th June 2011, 01:20
Australian Branches rarely have the opportunity to get together. The last WSKO training camp was in 2004. We are having another 1 this year - a 7 year gap!!!!! :(.



As a Iaidoka, I find this a bit strange.

My nearest Dojo is in Townsville but I've been there 3 times in the pat 2 years and am about to fly up this weekend. I've also had my instructor down in Sydney as well.

It's not expensive at all to fly internally here.

I know plenty of people from Perth who practise Seitei Iai fly to Sydney for the Nationals.

colin linz
28th June 2011, 07:05
As a Iaidoka, I find this a bit strange.

My nearest Dojo is in Townsville but I've been there 3 times in the pat 2 years and am about to fly up this weekend. I've also had my instructor down in Sydney as well.

It's not expensive at all to fly internally here.

I know plenty of people from Perth who practise Seitei Iai fly to Sydney for the Nationals.

Hi Mat,

I think Rob was speaking historically. Cheap air fares are a fairly modern occurrence. A few years ago it was cheaper to fly to Japan than from Sydney to Perth. In the past we also suffered poor direction and leadership. I also think that money was a bit of an issue with many kenshi, as most branches were uni based and populated by starving students ;) These days there are a few more proactive and forward thinking branch masters along with a few extra community based branches. Years of stagnation won't be turned around quickly, but we have passed the turning point and things have improved.

Maro
29th June 2011, 00:22
Fair enough.

oriesama
29th June 2011, 15:05
well, i think even in indonesia, transportation is not cheap :) kenshies from eastern indonesia had to pay about 3-5 million rupiah (about 350-450 USD) for the airline ticket, even though, there is no guarantee that they will positively pass the exam :)

luckily now in indonesia, we had what we called Regional-National Gashuku, which mean it has the grade of national gashuku, but not held in Jakarta...

but still, the national gashuku is more prestigious :)

jailess
6th July 2011, 02:29
Most senior among them is to my knowledge Wunderle-sensei (Rokkudan, Junhanshi), head of the German federation. He started in the early seventies and is therefore probably one of the longest standing still active kenshi outside of Japan and Indonesia.
What about Anders-sensei? didn't he start training a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, and now is at 6th/7th?

It's not all about Germany, Jan!

Spyder
6th July 2011, 08:00
Anders sensei started in -85 or around there. He is Godan since 2001 i think and Daikenshi since 2004 or 2005 or something like that.

Anders Pettersson
19th July 2011, 14:34
Well, firstly I'd like to refer that question to the thread about the SEA games: If I'm not mistaken, the Indonesian federation head, Indra Kartasasmita-sensei, is currently holding Kyudan (9th). I'd assume that somewhere down the line he held Nanadan (7th) as well. ;)
Secondly, as to Europe, which I'm a bit more familiar with, there are a handful of Rokkudan (6th) sensei of non-Japanese descent. Most senior among them is to my knowledge Wunderle-sensei (Rokkudan, Junhanshi), head of the German federation.
Well Indra-sensei is certainly not Kyudan, weher on earth did you get that?
So far only eleven people have received that rank.
As been mentioned by Steve Indra Kartasmita recieved his Junhanshi in 2007 (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/report/157.html) (which means he probably got rokudan three years before that).

In Europe there are, as have been mentioned, six people in France that have rokudan and one in Germany. There are also two in Italy and at least one in Spain. In UK there are three (I'm not sure if one of them currently is active in WSKO or not).



One branch master here in NZ was the very first student to walk into a dojo here and sign up in 1971, still rokudan.
Peter Monk I guess. I remember when he recieved his rokudan, that was quite some time ago.


Further I understand that personal circumstances may affect the individuals ability to go to Hombu for a grading, it starts getting expensive with grading fees and travel, (I sat on san dan for 10 years due to the costs involved) however I am sure there must be many people with the means to go to Hombu when eligible.

Probably, but I think the cost and distance have meant quite a big part in delaying it.


By the by Indra Kartasasmita was awarded Jun Hanshi in Dec 2007 after sitting on go dan for decades? despite going regularly to Hombu for director meetings.
Yes, but I also think he hasn't been very active in actual practice. Although very much working for the organisation and doing a lot of good things I think his focus has been on the administrative side for the last years.


To the best of knowledge (Please note my user Id) there is not one 7th dan foreigner or above.
As been stated by Kari, there are a few Indonesians who are 7th dan.


My previous Instructor (Japanese) started in 1957 and was awarded 7th dan in 1976 19 years, I don't know what the average time it takes to get 7th dan in Japan is but it seems alot slower overseas.
My sensei in Japan I think did it even quicker. He started around 1961 and I think received his nanadan in 1976, however his hachidan took a bit longer and he got that in 2001 I think.
It seems they could get higher rank quickly then, but a lot of these senior people also practiced very much (at least that is the case when I have talked to my sensei about how it was in the early days).


Bearing in mind that the last techniques are in godan and
rokudan is all about how to apply Kyusho attacks.
Nana dan is recognition of being a fully qualified instructor.
Hachi dan is awarded for contribution to Shorinji and or your local community.
Ku dan is awarded for long service of contribution.
To add to this, which I basically agree on, is that since April this year (when Japan started to use the new Kamokuhyo) it is not possible anymore for "ordinary" kenshi to take the test for 7 dan or above, one need to be doin-cho or shibu-cho.


Also I note in the WSKO regulations that it is prohibited to with hold promotion with out strong reasons.
May I ask where you have seen this? I can't remind me ever seeing that in any regulations.


Having met many kenshi from around the world over the years, there technical standard usually far exceeds the minimum requirement to pass grading s and certainly their character and contributions to growing Shorinji is exemplary.

Personally I have only met two Instructors who I felt didn't live up to their grade (1 Japanese 7th dan, 1 Foreign 6th dan)
I think I have met a lot more people than that who don't live up to the expected standard, however it is not that common for 6th dan and above, one see a lot more "lower" ranked yudansha that are not up to the standard one think they should have.


As I have met hundreds of both 6th & 7th dan (Combined total) in the 2 years I lived in Japan and over the years since I am proud to say that this is a style that develops top quality Instructors in every sense of the word.

Or is is this that we (Foreigners) are reluctant to apply for grading s?
Or could it be that we are trying to reach the same standard as the Hombu Instructors?
One can actually not apply for ranks for 6 dan and above. Hombu goes over all who has the minimum time requirement every year and they will notify everyone who gets permission for the next fiscal year (April - March), so it isn't really we that don't apply, it is up to hombu to tell us.



What about Anders-sensei? didn't he start training a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, and now is at 6th/7th?
Maybe some time ago, but not in a galaxy far far away. ;)

Anders sensei started in -85 or around there. He is Godan since 2001 i think and Daikenshi since 2004 or 2005 or something like that.
Almost correct.
I started in January 1984, but was officially registered in June 1985, my kisei is 435.
I received godan in 2001, actual test was on my 35th birthday, but the certificate and official date was set to three days later, September 11 in 2001 (not a good date).
Daikenshi was in December 2003 (minimum time since godan were 2 years with the rules at the time).


Lastly I can just comment that even though not that many non-japanese are at 7th dan yet (or even not that many at 6th dan, we are getting a lot higher standard when it comes to understanding of the techniques. Give it a few more years and I am sure that there will be more common with 5th dan and 6th dan kenshi, at least here in Europe.
When going to bigger international seminars in the late 80s when we divided the attending kenshi in groups by rank the highest group was often nidan and above, nowadays it is most often yondan and above and sometimes even godan and above.

But I also think we need to have more "younger" people getting up to ranks around 5th and 6th dan. It is good if at least a few are physically capable of doing everything. With the new kamokuhyo the minimum age for 6th dan will be 35 years (the one we still use outside of Japan minimum was 30).
Minimum age for 5th dan will be 24, so hopefully we will have several in their lower 30s that can be godan.
But the most important thing isn't that people receive higher rank, it is that they understand and can do and teach the techniques and philosophy.

/Anders

JL.
19th July 2011, 20:41
Gassho!


Well Indra-sensei is certainly not Kyudan, weher on earth did you get that?I'm not sure, obviously I misrembered (if that's a word). I seem to recall being told, years ago, that the only non-Japanese Kyudan was Indonesian. I assumed it must be Indra-sensei.


I received godan in 2001, actual test was on my 35th birthday, but the certificate and official date was set to three days later, September 11 in 2001 (not a good date).What's not good about it? It's the exact day I took Ikkyu in Japan. ;)


But I also think we need to have more "younger" people getting up to ranks around 5th and 6th dan. It is good if at least a few are physically capable of doing everything. With the new kamokuhyo the minimum age for 6th dan will be 35 years (the one we still use outside of Japan minimum was 30).Well, I've been 35 for a while now and am still waiting for Hombu to ask me to take Rokudan … if it's okay to skip a couple of grades.


But the most important thing isn't that people receive higher rank, it is that they understand and can do and teach the techniques and philosophy.Amen to that.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Steve Williams
19th July 2011, 23:20
What's not good about it? It's the exact day I took Ikkyu in Japan. ;)


Probably because that's the day the twin towers came down.

JL.
19th July 2011, 23:36
You don't say …

JL

Sum dum guy
20th July 2011, 09:58
Gassho Sensei,

Yes I was referring to Peter Monk, its so long ago that he got rokudan I cant remember when it was. I thinks IMHO he should be fast closing on Hachi dan at this stage.

The bit about not holding back a kenshis grading s comes from..

(An older version between 1988 and 1990) of the (Sorry no cover with a date)

Statutes of the world Shorinji Kempo Organization.

Page 9.
Chapter 5. Training and Grading Examination

Article 54 (Method of Training)

3. A Branch Master, Coach and other instructors shall give the specified lessons within the specified period and shall not extend the period of practices or commit such acts as subverting qualifications for an examination without acceptable reason.

It may have changed since then, I have a 2003 update, but quickly scanning it I see no mention of a change to this article so assume it still holds true???

Hope this helps.

You have raised some good valid points as to WHY there are so few 7th dans other than Japanese.

The tread got a bit off course and focused on who and how many have got to higher levels.

Yes there are many who have reached go dan (possibly in the thousand & don't expect me to go back through the last 10 years of WSKO Special Dan grading reports to count, it's not going to happen)

Heaps are getting to rokudan jun hanshi, which I think is wonderful.

Should the question be asked
"Why do so many train for say twenty years plus and then stop?"
(still with their heart in Shorinji forever)

In my business if a valued, experienced, well qualified staff member leaves I want to know if it is because of a failing within the organization and if it is, What to do to put it right to
a/. try and keep them and
b/. not loose further valued staff.
Hence the exit interview.

Keep the flow coming, guys,I think only a part of the reason has been discussed so far.

Kesshu

Stewart Ogg

AKA Sum dum guy

ken70
20th July 2011, 11:20
Should the question be asked
"Why do so many train for say twenty years plus and then stop?"
(still with their heart in Shorinji forever)

But, because "c'est la vie"! :D

Or you could ask to these guys, and then put on this board their answers: that will be very interesting, no doubt...

Tripitaka of AA
20th July 2011, 15:44
Are you waiting for someone to say "racism"? Oops, I said it.

oriesama
21st July 2011, 16:22
is that really matter??
Ranks???

sean dixie
22nd July 2011, 13:45
is that really matter??
Ranks???

Good point. I think they really do matter at the lower levels so that people can build up their basics and learn the principals. As one gets into the middle dan ranks perhaps rank matters less but by your arguement then perhaps we shouldn't bother at all? Rank has always mattered to me :D I remember being a kyu grade at seminars and looking longingly at the black belts..... For me each grade is a new adventure - new techniques, further exploration of the principles, great and ever more delicious pain:eek: When I was around yellow/green belt Sensei Russel and Sensei Peter come over to our dojo and demonstrated their embu for our last lesson of the year. I'd only been training for a few months and it blew me away, the final technique being appo applied to Sensei Peter to render him unconsious. I decided there and then that appo was to be my holy grail. It's been a long and very enjoyable journey but I want to grade and move on to the next syllabus and make no opologies for this. The real ironic thing is that the when I saw this amazing demo that helped to hook me, both those Sensei's were I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) but were 3rd dans - this would be Christmas '89. And they knew techniques I still haven't been taught :)

oriesama
22nd July 2011, 19:06
Good point. I think they really do matter at the lower levels so that people can build up their basics and learn the principals. As one gets into the middle dan ranks perhaps rank matters less but by your arguement then perhaps we shouldn't bother at all? Rank has always mattered to me :D I remember being a kyu grade at seminars and looking longingly at the black belts..... For me each grade is a new adventure - new techniques, further exploration of the principles, great and ever more delicious pain:eek: When I was around yellow/green belt Sensei Russel and Sensei Peter come over to our dojo and demonstrated their embu for our last lesson of the year. I'd only been training for a few months and it blew me away, the final technique being appo applied to Sensei Peter to render him unconsious. I decided there and then that appo was to be my holy grail. It's been a long and very enjoyable journey but I want to grade and move on to the next syllabus and make no opologies for this. The real ironic thing is that the when I saw this amazing demo that helped to hook me, both those Sensei's were I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) but were 3rd dans - this would be Christmas '89. And they knew techniques I still haven't been taught :)

in my brach (Yogyakarta, Indonesia) Head of the Branch is just an Nidan Lady, but we do have one Godan Sensei... is that weird?

FYI, I just a sankyu kenshi, but many-many of my senpai in the blackbelt do respect me :D, why?? because I'm more senior than them. First of all, they do not regards me as their senior, but, when i do write my NIK (Kenshies Identification Number) they surprised that i had the head of 91. (mean i started to train in 1991), meanwhile theirs are various from 97 to 02... but still i just a sankyu kenshi (but had the power to give order to the yudanshas) LOL

now talking about new techniques....
do that really important???

sean dixie
22nd July 2011, 19:29
now talking about new techniques....
do that really important???

To me yes:) They get a bit weird around 4/5 dan though;)

colin linz
22nd July 2011, 23:46
As someone that has spent considerable time at various kyu rankings I would say yes, it does matter. Apart from the nice feeling you get from the recognition that you are progressing, there is a more practical reason. Under WSKO guidelines you can only practice the techniques that are in your curriculum. While it would be fair to comment that most branches wouldn't rigidly adhere to this, it is adhered to at WSKO sanctioned training events. When kenshi spend a lot of time at one grade, this repetition of the same few techniques year after year leads to stagnation and lower levels of motivation.

Sum dum guy
22nd July 2011, 23:59
Gassho,

Good question Orie.

No they don't matter, and yes they do matter.
Individuals need to keep rank in perspective the way Kaiso set up his grading and ranking system.
For the individual kenshi it is important not to get too focused on being a high rank.
They were intended as a series of markers on the path of training for each kenshi.
It is not a comparison of ones skill against another.
It is about the time and effort each person has put in on his particular path of discovery and development about themselves.
Sean Sensei puts it so nicely about each new grade being a wonderful adventure etc.

Hence this allows for the unique differences between us and the rate and direction of development, we all progress in our own way depending on our circumstances.
Kaiso never intended to churn-out masses of highly skilled fighters, rather than offer people a way to live life together in friendship, co-operation and peace.
The martial techniques are just a bait to catch the fish.

There fore we can expect there to be differences in technical skill, character and strength between individuals of the same rank.

Having said that it would be fair to expect that any one who is in the position of instructing to be competent in all aspects of Shorinji.

From the organizations point of view I think it is very important that leaders and instructors are highly ranked (and Competent) as they are the public face of Shorinji in that location.
To see old men / women who are running a dojo and teaching wearing a brown belt or low dan after twenty or thirty years of training does not inspire new members or inspire confidence.
I want some one to look up to that I can trust, that they know what they are talking about;
(I lucked out there when I met Tai Sensei)

First impressions are important, to get people interested and inspired happens in the first lesson. If the instructor blows it, they don't come back, and the opportunity for that individual to gain the wonderful benefits of Shorinji are lost as are the benefits Shorinji may gain from that member are lost.

I have always worked on the assumption that Shorinji has a lot to offer many people in so many different ways if only they knew.
There fore it is the responsibility of all kenshi and BM / Instructors to spread the word and give as many people as possible the opportunity.
To take that a step further, I think it is each instructors duty to develop as many new instructors as possible. Indra is the leading example in my mind in this respect.

One other point is when teaching, new techniques they should be taught to appropriate grade only, as a general rule.
Exceptions are allowed when say teaching a principle or at camps taikai etc.
As it says in the 8 learning factors, attempting techniques above your level will ultimately ruin your progress.
It is a very useful method to motivate and inspire students to keep training and working hard as Sean Sensei expresses above.

The fact is that Western and Asian attitudes are different in some ways.
Westerners tend to be more impatient and less humble (varying across the spectrum) and are more inclined to want recognition for their achievements.
This is just the difference between the many cultures sharing Shorinji.

I don't believe Kaiso wanted to turn the world Japanese.
As much as i love and respect many aspects of Japnese culture, I don't want to be Japanese nor did my Japanese wife and I want our kids brought up in Japan, ( but want a heavy exposure to it).

So are grades important?

Low grades as goals or stepping stones - yes.

High grades as inspiration and the public image and spread of Shorinji - Yes.

Keep it all in perspective the way Kaiso intended, and allow enough flexibility to adapt the teachings and practices to suit the daily lives of the individuals in their circumstances.

Food for thought?

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

Sum dum guy
23rd July 2011, 00:45
Gassho Oriesama,

I take into consideration that English is probably not you first language and I am probably misunderstanding the tone of your comments, correct me and accept my apology in advance should that be the case. (My lovely wife says I am wrong most of the time, neh)

I find it curious that after 20 years of "Studying Shorinji Kempo" you seem to take pride in "ordering" yudansha around.

Don't people come to training on a voluntary basis? Here they actually pay money.
Aren't they their to learn?
Isn't a part of Shorinji about learning to develop good friendships and long lasting relationships and good interpersonal skills?

I don't understand any thing about the Indonesian culture, but I find ordering people around, or telling them what to do contrary to being an example, sharing your wisdom and experience.
Are they not willing to follow your lead, as you go about the days training?
Do your actions and words not inspire them to join in and follow?

One very important lesson Arai Sensei taught me when he came to NZ in 1988.
It was a masterful example of the way to treat people, that I will never forget and strive (unsuccessfully) to achieve every day.
I was in the process of establishing a Branch, (I had 10 plus kenshi training for months) when the procedure changed from

1. Gather 10 kenshi together, start training and then register them and complete the establishment process; to

2. Complete the establishment process, then gather 10 plus kenshi to start training.

So technically I had broken the establishment rules.

So when he arrived he conducted the Branch establishment seminar.
All Branch masters and potential Bm were given a one on one interview with him.

He opened with a few questions.
Then he had to tell me off;
He put his hand on my shoulder in a friendly reassuring manner, and and in a very kind way simply said "Stewart, Dame desu neh?"
Which means "Stewart, you've been bad, haven't you?"

What impressed me was.... it wasn't a put down, it wasn't a punishment, it wasn't humiliating or embarrassing, there was no anger or power play involved.

It was simply a statement of fact, a transgression had been made.

I new I had been told off.
But I held no anger, no bitterness, no hard feelings.
In fact he can tell me off any time.

Is this not what kaiso wanted to teach people around the world?

How do the yudansha in your dojo feel when they are ordered around?

Food for thought???

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

colin linz
23rd July 2011, 02:41
Hi Stewart,

Regarding Orie's comment on seniority. I think his intention may have been to highlight the varying interpretations of seniority. On one hand we have the formality of rank, while on the other we value time spent training. I have trained at a few branches where there have been very experienced kenshi, but for whatever reason, they held fairly modest ranks. I recall one Japanese 2nd dan that had twenty odd years of experience. He was well respected and often consulted about technical matters by other higher ranking kenshi.

Sum dum guy
23rd July 2011, 05:14
Gassho Colin,

Thank you, I take your point on board.

I have re read Oriesama's comments several times, and I'm still not sure where he's heading.

There is a often a big difference between a formal ranking and the personal respect one is held in.

I see them as separate, as there are many people who don't do Shorinji who I respect highly, and also all kenshi have other skills and qualities that deserve respect.
And within Shorinji the difference between a formal ranking and personal respect plays a big part.

I guess I just take issue with a lack of structure, organization and discipline.
I like to set goals and achieve them. Grading is one way to do all that.

I think this also has a bearing on why each individual chooses Shorinji over another style or even another activity all-together.

Two questions;

1/. Would you continue to do a style that had no gradings?
2/.How long would you do a style that had say only 20 techniques?
(Yes they do exist.)

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy
AKA Stewart Ogg

colin linz
23rd July 2011, 05:48
They are indeed separate, but sometimes there are kenshi, that due to some personal circumstance like the one I mentioned. He worked for the UN and didn't have the advantage of a stable branch. He may have only had 2nd dan, but he had a deep technical experience that would often see higher graded kenshi seek advise from him.

My personal motivation has never really been focused on grades. I would never have trained for so long here if that was the case. Gradings used to be very infrequent. That said, I recognise their importance and I'm happy to see that this is no longer the case here in Australia.

As for doing styles with no gradings. This wouldn't worry me as long as the training was stimulating and challenging. This could possibly be still achieved even with only 20 techniques. It is more a factor of training structure and methodology than the number of techniques. In our case, if we follow the curriculum there isn't much scope for variety in the kyu grades. This isn't a problem when we use the time frame that the curriculum is based around; but when you spend a couple of years doing only sanku or nikyu curriculum 3 or 4 times a week, then stagnation can become an issue.

Sum dum guy
23rd July 2011, 06:59
Gassho Colin

Yes, well put.

I started in late 1981, and got shodan in 84.
in January 86 I meet Yoko (in NZ) and chased her up to Japan.

Several months after I got there I realized how bored I was getting doing the Kyu syllabus every day.

I know without a doubt that I would have quit within another year or two had I not had new doors opened for me in Japan.

Then when I returned a couple of years latter, my focus had changed from totally on my learning to sharing with others and roping more people into Shorinji to enjoy the befits.

Then I lost interest in my own gradings (10 years on san dan and yon dan grading was 1998).
(In hindsight I regret that I didn't maintain my drive for grades (Part of it was financial, part of I had been right through the technical Syllabus for Go dan.

Now I have a Dojo at my home and teach a few beginners, really getting into Kyusho and how to use them effectively.

I will put a lot more emphasis on teaching kyusho jtsu to lower grades.

Cheers

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

oriesama
23rd July 2011, 09:00
Gassho Oriesama,

I take into consideration that English is probably not you first language and I am probably misunderstanding the tone of your comments, correct me and accept my apology in advance should that be the case. (My lovely wife says I am wrong most of the time, neh)

I find it curious that after 20 years of "Studying Shorinji Kempo" you seem to take pride in "ordering" yudansha around.

Don't people come to training on a voluntary basis? Here they actually pay money.
Aren't they their to learn?
Isn't a part of Shorinji about learning to develop good friendships and long lasting relationships and good interpersonal skills?

I don't understand any thing about the Indonesian culture, but I find ordering people around, or telling them what to do contrary to being an example, sharing your wisdom and experience.
Are they not willing to follow your lead, as you go about the days training?
Do your actions and words not inspire them to join in and follow?

One very important lesson Arai Sensei taught me when he came to NZ in 1988.
It was a masterful example of the way to treat people, that I will never forget and strive (unsuccessfully) to achieve every day.
I was in the process of establishing a Branch, (I had 10 plus kenshi training for months) when the procedure changed from

1. Gather 10 kenshi together, start training and then register them and complete the establishment process; to

2. Complete the establishment process, then gather 10 plus kenshi to start training.

So technically I had broken the establishment rules.

So when he arrived he conducted the Branch establishment seminar.
All Branch masters and potential Bm were given a one on one interview with him.

He opened with a few questions.
Then he had to tell me off;
He put his hand on my shoulder in a friendly reassuring manner, and and in a very kind way simply said "Stewart, Dame desu neh?"
Which means "Stewart, you've been bad, haven't you?"

What impressed me was.... it wasn't a put down, it wasn't a punishment, it wasn't humiliating or embarrassing, there was no anger or power play involved.

It was simply a statement of fact, a transgression had been made.

I new I had been told off.
But I held no anger, no bitterness, no hard feelings.
In fact he can tell me off any time.

Is this not what kaiso wanted to teach people around the world?

How do the yudansha in your dojo feel when they are ordered around?

Food for thought???

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

well maybe there was some misunderstanding between us :)

early i gave the example, that my branch manager in yogyakarta is jus a nidan kenshi, eventhough, we do have a godan sensei in here :) and my godan sensei is obeying all order from my nidan branch manager (maybe i prefer using term Leader instead Manager, because the position and function here)

about ordering yudanshas, of course not like master ordering his slaves :D terms order here is mean asking them to do something, of course in the polite way :)

order here from the example, like this "senpai i think we'll better do this than that" and my yudansha senpai replied to me "yes, senpai, I will" :)


fyi most of yudansha here in Indonesia is have a high pride and dignity sometimes arrogant LOL. let me gave an example about this arrogance, there was a shodan kenshi, he act like a king in the national gashuku... he yell, order and other annoying act to the mudansha around him. this was heard by one of my sensei (AFAIK this was Indra Ss. ) he called the yudansha and tell him, "You might be a king on your branch, but in here, you just a vermin!!" and that shodan is ordered to push up 50times as punishment from Indra Ss.:laugh:

maybe in Indonesia, we pay less money for studying Shorinji Kempo than in other countries. but we had more obligation about shorinji kempo than kenshies abroad. we had the obligation to have good achievement in national, regional and international..... Indonesian Kenshi surely squeezed hardly for this:D and yes!! we are volunteered for it!!

Sum dum guy
23rd July 2011, 10:23
Oriesama,

I did misunderstand,
Please accept my apologies.

As you have explained above, being your usual manner, This is what I would expect in any Shorinji kempo Dojo/ Doin.

The term "order" really leads to misunderstanding.
One of the things that So Doshin was adamant about was all kenshi being truthful to their fellow kenshi not holding back and thus tactfully pointing out where improvements would be appropriate.

I take this teaching to heart and expect others to reciprocate.


Once again my apologies.

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

oriesama
23rd July 2011, 18:58
Oriesama,

I did misunderstand,
Please accept my apologies.

As you have explained above, being your usual manner, This is what I would expect in any Shorinji kempo Dojo/ Doin.

The term "order" really leads to misunderstanding.
One of the things that So Doshin was adamant about was all kenshi being truthful to their fellow kenshi not holding back and thus tactfully pointing out where improvements would be appropriate.

I take this teaching to heart and expect others to reciprocate.


Once again my apologies.

Kesshu

Sum Dum Guy

Stewart Ogg

you dont need to apologize senpai, I do admit, maybe i use incorrect terms on it :)

Sum dum guy
24th July 2011, 00:17
Gassho Oriesama,

You are too gracious.

Thank you.

Stewart