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PghRonin
6th March 2001, 22:57
Does anyone study or have info on Goshin-Ryu Jujutsu?

MarkF
7th March 2001, 09:46
Here is a site you may get a kick out of: Goshin Ryu Jujutsu http://www.jutsu.cjb.net/

I didn't get passed the opening page as it plays the theme music for Mission Impossible or more precisely, "Mission Implausible."
******

You may want to take a look at the book Kodokan Judo. Kodokan Goshin jutsu is considered today to be one of the official kata of Kodokan Judo. It consists of twenty-six techniques, I think, and was put together by committee, but especially by Tomiki Kenji, founder of Shodokan style aikido. It was first published in the 1958 edition of KJ.

I don't know of any other reasonable teaching of anything called Goshin jutsu, but many seem to have tried.

TIM BURTON
17th March 2001, 11:43
HI Tom,
KODOKAN GOSHIN JUTSU
Goshin Jutsu is the youngest of the Kodokan Judo Katas. Completed in 1956, it was devised to upgrade the self defence principles taught to the students of the Kodokan. It compliments the older Kime No Kata, also taught at the Kodokan, to pass on the difference in Ma-Ai (combat distance) crucial to self defence.
Goshin Jutsu took approximately three years to complete and was the work of a number of Kodokan Judo Sensei. MIFUNE Sensei was one and another was TOMIKI Sensei, who was also a highly graded Aikido Sensei, who formulated his own competitive style of Aikido.
The Kata dispensed with the Kneeling section as contained in Kime no Kata and also removed defences against the sword. Instead it replaced them with a series of techniques that could be employed should one be held at gunpoint. It comprises of twenty one moves, covering the different ranges of combat and it is this that is held to be its most important aspect. It teaches Judoka, who are used to employing techniques from close in, to expand their awareness and knowledge of fighting someone who is not using Judo against them.
One can gain an insight into this by looking at TOMIKI Sensei, who after the completion of the Kata toured the country teaching its “special Ma-Ai”. Tomiki Sensei said of this, “ Ma-Ai is the secret principle of fighting after getting the better of your opponent first”.
Once one begins to learn this kata, its true value begins to shine through. As a method of self defence this kata is a gold mine of technique and theory, the sum total of the best Judo minds alive at that time. The answers to the problem of self defence are contained within this kata. One just has to seek them out and apply them to the situation you face.

KATA COMPLETE
Sequence one. RYOTE DORI (DOUBLE WRIST GRAB).
Sequence two. Hidari Eri Dori (Left Lapel Hold).
Sequence three. Migi Eri Dori (Right Lapel Hold).
Sequence four. Kata Ude Dori (One arm is held).
Sequence five. Ushiro Eri Dori (Grab to Back of collar).
Sequence six. Ushiro Jime (Strangle from behind).
Sequence seven. Kake Dori (Overarm seizure from behind).
Sequence eight. Naname Uchi (Diagonal Blow).
Sequence nine. Ago Tsuki (Uppercut).
Sequence ten. Gan Men Tsuki (left straight punch to head).
Sequence eleven. Mae Geri (front kick).
Sequence twelve. Yoko Geri (Side kick).
Sequence thirteen. Tsukkake (Attempted stab).
Sequence fourteen. Choku Tsuki (Straight Thrust with a Knife).
Sequence fifteen. Naname Tsuki (Diagonal Slash).
Sequence sixteen. Furi Age (Threat with a stick).
Sequence seventeen. Furi Oroshi (Diagonal swing).
Sequence eighteen. Morote zuki (Two handed thrust).
Sequence nineteen. Shomen Zuke (Pistol held away from the body).
Sequence twenty. Koshi Gamae (Pistol held at the hip).
Sequence twenty one. Haimen Zuke (Pistol in the back).
Mark has already informed you that a good source of the goshin jutsu is in the kodokan judo book. You can also purchase it in video form from the kodokan shop on the net should the subject have interested you.
Tim Burton UK

Yamantaka
17th March 2001, 15:25
Originally posted by MarkF

I don't know of any other reasonable teaching of anything called Goshin jutsu, but many seem to have tried.

YAMANTAKA : There is one art called GOSHIN JUTSU, developed by Tanaka Tatsuo, uchideshi of Ueshiba Morihei Kaiso of Aikido. It is difficult to get information about it. Does anybody ever hear about this art?
Best

Greg Cumbee
24th March 2001, 20:58
looks like you are more interested in historical and philosophical discussion than to join the Dojo for the real training. I am not interested in such a relation. Your questions are partially answered in out web site, but to answer you fully takes time, to write you a whole book! You can find what ever you want about Budo in the libraries or on the internet. I can, and I want to provide you info about our Dojo, that's my point. Sorry, no bad feelings.


----- Original Message -----
From: GregCumbee
To: Dan-Horia Chinda
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


Dear CII Dojo,

Thank you for your letter. Could you tell me more information about Goshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu? Is it a koryu form of bujutsu or is it a modern form of budo? Who is the founder of the system and what is its history? What organizations is it affiliated with and recognized by? In what ways does it significantly differ from modern judo and aikido?

Thank you so much for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan-Horia Chinda
To: GregCumbee
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


For a bettewr answer i need more details, what you really want! I will be pleased to give more informations, please check our website, section Ju-Jutsu, then please contact me again.
Our Shihan has a Roku Dan in Goshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu.
Thanks for your inquiry.

----- Original Message -----
From: GregCumbee
To: ciidojo@sgi.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: Inquiry


Dear CII Dojo:

Good evening. I am writing to inquire of the ryu of Jujutsu that you are affiliated with.

Thank you for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

MarkF
26th March 2001, 10:10
Originally posted by Greg Cumbee
Dear CII Dojo,

Thank you for your letter. Could you tell me more information about Goshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu? Is it a koryu form of bujutsu or is it a modern form of budo? Who is the founder of the system and what is its history? What organizations is it affiliated with and recognized by? In what ways does it significantly differ from modern judo and aikido?

Thank you so much for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee



Mr. Cumbee,
I don't think the questions are out of bounds, and unless there was much more commmunication between you and Mr. Thornton which isn't posted here, the questions are valid and easily answered.

Could you give me some information about goshin ryu jujutsu? A: It was founded by so and so, and it is based in so and so.

Q:Is it Koryu or gendai form of jujutsu (shortened to make the answer more precise, and at the same time, asks the real question) A: Gendai (or koryu)

Q:Who is the founder and what is his history?
A: Sensei so and so is "godan" in this form of jujutsu and his teacher was so and so of so and so style of jujutsu.

Q: Could you tell me its affiliation and what organization recognizes is as such? A: Yes, it______ and______.

Q: How does it differ from judo and Aikido?
A: Well, it is goshin jujutsu, so the basics come from_____ and Kodokan Judo has its routes in kito-ryu, jikishin ryu, and Tenjin shin'yo ryu. Aikido has its roots in Daito Ryu aikijujutsu.
********

While your answers to his questions could be like a book, given that it comes from an Email from someone you don't know, I think the above would be quite sufficient.
****

Actually, I too think those questions should be made face to face, or Mr. Thornton's questions should be answered as easily as you can. While I think he should give you the details for which he is looking, it could have been handled so that neither would feel that the other is being ignored, or the answers not sufficient.

IMO, the questions could be answered that easily, or a recomendation to do a search on http://google.com would have been in order.

Mark

PS: If people would first seek out the answers first, then ask if this or that is true, it maybe an easier world to live in. I was ignored in asking some questions which now has me using the Internet for the short answer and the library for the long one.

Joseph Svinth
26th March 2001, 14:04
Some cynicism is perhaps justified. After all, any site that has "Get truly huge muscles in 6 months" on its links page causes me to raise an eyebrow. See http://www.chindadojo.com/links.htm .

And, perhaps I missed it, but the jujutsu link at http://www.chindadojo.com/jujutsu.htm did not provide much detail regarding the origins of the style, which I believe was the basis of the original question. Perhaps some of you more knowledgeable people could look at the photos and find something I missed?

Anyway, assuming that I found the correct website, the club is in Pittsburgh, PA, and its head instructor, a Mr. Chinda, is a most extraordinary fellow. For example,
http://www.chindadojo.com/news12b.htm lists his background as including Shotokan, aikido, jujutsu, t'ai chi, chi kung, Tao meditation, shiatsu, etc. The instructor bios at http://www.chindadojo.com/instructors.htm suggest that Mr. Chinda has been a busy man over the past few years, too -- in 1993, he was ranked 4-dan in Shotokan and a 2-dan in jujutsu, and today he is a 6-dan in both Shotokan and jujutsu, plus acquired shodan in kendo.

His day job involves teaching industrial design. http://www.aip.aii.edu/learn_industrial.htm , and he has apparently published some books in Germany.

Greg Cumbee
26th March 2001, 23:08
Dear Friends,

Thank you for your posts. I did perform a web search and made some phone calls before writing the initial inquiry. The name Goshin merely means "self-defense" and is used by numerous systems. And yes, the website is vague about what exactly is being taught.

Below is all of the correspondence including two recent letters since my last post. The initial inquiry was brief and polite, and I was then asked to provide more detailed questions. When I did, I was rebuked for requesting "a book" and for "not wanting real training".

After reading the first two unsigned responses, I thought that I may be conversing with a child or perhaps a mentally challenged adult; only to find out that it was Shihan Chia himself who was writing the responses!

By the tone and content of his letter, I doubt that he has progressed very far on his self-professed journey to spiritual enlightenment.

Off to class! Have a good night gentlemen.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

PS The dialogue begins at the bottom.


-----------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Cumbee,
Far away to have the intention to offend! But if you really studied in Japan, as I did, I expect you to know that you NEVER insult a school, or a Sensei, or in my case, a Shihan. The first thing you learned in a REAL Dojo, is RESPECT! I did not sense it from the last two letters... But still, I was respectful whith you, and I repeat, sincerely, to really answer your last letter, takes time. I do not have any reasons to hide... That's why I did not signed the letter, and did not address it at the beginning. To be sincere, I was almost sure is about a high school teen, who wants to show up some knowledge about Budo terms...many times happens. And a last correction: a reputable Sensei, from a reputable Dojo, will never use his credentials to impress or attract students. My Dojo is traditional, it is not commercial, I am not taking money from it, I do this not for material living, but for spiritual enlightenment. So, dear Mr. Cumbee, I am sure that my Dojo is not the one you are looking for...
And something else: in the REAL reputable Dojos, the Dojo selects the student!
Hope you will find successfully the one you are looking for and the one which fits your expectations. Good luck!
Prof. Dan-Horia Chinda, Shihan, Roku Dan Karate Do Shotokan, Roku Dan Ju-Jutsu, etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: GregCumbee
To: Dan-Horia Chinda
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


Dear Mr. or Mrs. Unsigned Name,

And it looks as if you are more interested in hiding your vague lineage rather than being forthright and honest. Having trained in Budo for over twenty years in the US and Japan, I carefully investigate the credibility of any "school" before joining it. But of course, reputable dojo and sensei already know and expect this.

Thank you for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

PS I've taken the liberty to post your response to my letters publicly on the internet.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan-Horia Chinda
To: GregCumbee
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


looks like you are more interested in historical and philosophical discussion than to join the Dojo for the real training. I am not interested in such a relation. Your questions are partially answered in out web site, but to answer you fully takes time, to write you a whole book! You can find what ever you want about Budo in the libraries or on the internet. I can, and I want to provide you info about our Dojo, that's my point. Sorry, no bad feelings.

----- Original Message -----
From: GregCumbee
To: Dan-Horia Chinda
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


Dear CII Dojo,

Thank you for your letter. Could you tell me more information about Goshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu? Is it a koryu form of bujutsu or is it a modern form of budo? Who is the founder of the system and what is its history? What organizations is it affiliated with and recognized by? In what ways does it significantly differ from modern judo and aikido?

Thank you so much for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan-Horia Chinda
To: GregCumbee
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Inquiry


For a bettewr answer i need more details, what you really want! I will be pleased to give more informations, please check our website, section Ju-Jutsu, then please contact me again.
Our Shihan has a Roku Dan in Goshin Ryu Ju-Jutsu.
Thanks for your inquiry.
----- Original Message -----
From: GregCumbee
To: ciidojo@sgi.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:12 PM
Subject: Inquiry


Dear CII Dojo:

Good evening. I am writing to inquire of the ryu of Jujutsu that you are affiliated with.

Thank you for your time.

Cordially,
Greg Cumbee

Neil Hawkins
27th March 2001, 00:48
I just deleted the extra copies of Greg's post.

Neil