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Steven Wood
22nd August 2011, 15:54
The history and questionable claims of the Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu have been discussed numerous times on this and other forums. However, I've not been able to find any video on youtube of this style. Does anyone have any video of the Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu they would be willing to share?

Cron
22nd August 2011, 23:38
Never heard of it.

You didnīt mean Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu, right? Just for clarification.

Chris Parker
23rd August 2011, 09:12
Agreed. There's Itto Ryu (still extant as Ono-ha Itto Ryu and other lines, but not the original), and then there's Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, never heard of the two names being combined though. Where did you come across it?

EDIT: A quick search seems to bring up a few references for Tenshin Itto Ryu, as well as Itto Tenshin Ryu. Tenshin Itto Ryu is legit, coming from Nakanishi-ha Ito Ryu, however Itto Tenshin Ryu is a modern, made up system coming from an Aiki instructor (one Fred Lovret), near as I can find.

I can't find any video of Tenshin Itto Ryu, although there is a reasonable amount of footage of other lines of Itto Ryu (especially the Ono-ha Itto Ryu).

Steven Wood
23rd August 2011, 11:12
No, it is not Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. From what I have read there are several dojo in the US that teach it. May be connected to Fred Lovret.

Kendoguy9
23rd August 2011, 13:56
The school has characteristics of modern aikiken and movie chambara. They use a kamae that looks something like Itto-ryu's in no kamae or yo no kamae but they hold the sword up much higher. In this video, if I were uchidachi I would have whacked the crud out of the shidachi once he turned his back to me in such close maai. But that's because I am a jerk :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7B0lLDLdU

Enjoy (?!?),

Steven Wood
23rd August 2011, 14:47
Christopher,

It looks like that clip is aikiken from the Tenshin Dojo in Miami, FL. I guess what I am looking for is video of Fred Lovret's style. Thanks,

Chris Parker
23rd August 2011, 15:08
Hi Steven,

Can I ask why you are looking for video of Fred Lovret's approach? From reports I've been coming across, he has little to no formal training in anything to do with sword, to the point where he apparently had a photographer hold a copy of Deity and the Sword so he could copy the poses....

Here's some interesting reading: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?14793-Fred-Lovret

Steven Wood
23rd August 2011, 16:36
Hey Chris,

Basically, I have read about the questionable claims in various places over the years, one of them this past weekend. As an observer of JSA, both koryu and gendai, I'd like to see it for myself and make up my own mind. Is it is just omori ryu or some type of a "hybrid" between Itto Ryu and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

There seem to be several dojo in the US that teach this, such as http://www.chicagobudokai.com/ , but they offer no real explanation as to where the style came from and of course, no video.

Andreas Hauser
24th August 2011, 02:16
Chris, Ono-ha Itto ryu IS the original line, since Ono Tadaaki was the direct successor to Itto Ittosai...

Anyway, if the clip linked by Christopher is of the "style" Steven was looking for... well... To be polite I'd say it doesn't look like Itto ryu (and not like Katori Shinto Ryu either, from what I've seen in the past)...

Best regards,
Andreas

Chris Parker
24th August 2011, 05:43
Hi Steven,

Cool, thanks for that. To be honest, from the reports around the place, I don't think it's a hybrid of anything, other than in name. I think it's just what Fred thought swordsmanship is, without any real guidance or understanding, so I wouldn't hold out too much hope with it. But all the best with your search.

Thanks, Andreas. I knew that Ono Tadaaki was Ittosai's successor, but was lead to believe that what he taught was altered from Ittosai's original art (during his time teaching the Tokugawa Shogun's), hence a different line, and therefore the term "Ono-ha", with the original ceasing after Ittosai's other original students passed. I wasn't aware that the Ono-ha was regarded as the mainline (although certainly as the oldest, and seriously respected!).

In terms of the video, it's nothing like Katori from what I've seen either. The movements are completely different, the angling is different, the kamae are different... we could go on for hours like that! If anything, it bears a tiny superficial similarity to some Yagyu Shinkage ideas (outflanking and attacking the forearms/wrists, deflective actions with the sword to enter etc), but it's, at the very very best, an incredibly pale imitation.

Andreas Hauser
24th August 2011, 06:52
Hi Chris,

yes, I also believe there were alterations to Ittosai's teaching, but that is something every soke of any style has the right to do, as far as I understand it.
I also believe that the ryu was codified a few generations after Ittosai. I'm not sure if the ryu was called Itto ryu by anyone back in Ono Tadaaki's time (I think I read something about this a while back, but can't remember now).

Of course one could say that after some changes the ryu is not original any more, but the pros and cons to this could be discussed endlessly. It's just my own opinion that the Ono-ha is the mainline, since there never was a real, pure "Itto ryu" lineage and all other existing Itto ryu lines trace back to Ono-ha in the end...

To Steven,
I hope you find the information you were looking for, but I fear you will just be able to confirm what others here and elsewhere said: That there is no Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu and what is taught is all fabrication based on little knowledge of other styles...

Chris Parker
24th August 2011, 08:17
Yep, agreed on all that Andreas. It is absolutely within the rights of a Soke to alter the teachings as they see fit, or most appropriate. Interesting that there wasn't an "Itto Ryu" initially (as a fully codified system which was passed to Ono Tadaaki), I was under the impression that there was. Always enjoy getting better information!

Cliff Judge
24th August 2011, 15:42
Agreed. There's Itto Ryu (still extant as Ono-ha Itto Ryu and other lines, but not the original),

I can tell you that the party line of the Ono ha Itto ryu is that there's is the closest to the original Itto ryu. But why wouldn't they say that? It would be interesting to ask representatives of the Hokushin, Mizoguchi, etc lines which is the closest to the original. Maybe they would agree with Sasamori, maybe not.

Interesting parallel: the Kashima Shinryu believes it is doing the true Shinkage ryu and traces its lineage back to the same guys who other schools with "Kashima" and "Shinkage" in their names claim to be their founders. There is actually plenty of room for them to all be correct.


The school has characteristics of modern aikiken and movie chambara. They use a kamae that looks something like Itto-ryu's in no kamae or yo no kamae but they hold the sword up much higher. In this video, if I were uchidachi I would have whacked the crud out of the shidachi once he turned his back to me in such close maai. But that's because I am a jerk :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR7B0lLDLdU

Enjoy (?!?),

This looks like yet another take on Ichi no Tachi, actually. So, yeah, aikiken. Aikiken almost always looks bad if you've done any training in a real sword art.


If anything, it bears a tiny superficial similarity to some Yagyu Shinkage ideas (outflanking and attacking the forearms/wrists, deflective actions with the sword to enter etc), but it's, at the very very best, an incredibly pale imitation.

Ugh. As festooned with qualifications as this statement is, it still kind of makes me wince. :cry:

Jose Garrido
24th August 2011, 19:48
Itto Tenshin Katori Shinto-ryu was what Fred Lovret use to call his style of JSA. He wrote a book a long time ago called Kenjutsu Shoden. This is the only photo source of the style that I know of.

Jose Garrido

Cliff Judge
24th August 2011, 20:04
Random thread contribution: I visited the Toman dojo here in MD a couple of years ago to see Ellis. I believe this dojo was affiliated with Lovret's systems.

I recall that they used extra-long bokken, and they had one or two of these attractive little wooden doohickies on the wall that would hold a piece of newspaper. They would do some basic cutting practice by cutting through the paper - splitting the paper without knocking it out of the holder was considered good.

Didn't see any of their system, but extra-long bokken and cutting pieces of paper.

Really amazing dojo, haven't seen anything like it ever. Owner, who was presumably a student of Lovret's or one of Lovret's guys, was heir to a big land development company. Died in a helicopter crash a couple of years ago, very sad. Joshua Freeman, I think his name was?

pgsmith
24th August 2011, 20:33
Used a little google fu, but couldn't come up with much on Lovret's Tenshin ryu. Apparently they are shy due to lots of past hammering.
Did come up with one video though. ... tenshin ryu kumitachi (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=102468366497169#!/video/video.php?v=102468366497169)

Steven Wood
24th August 2011, 23:59
Thanks Paul, This is what I was looking for.

Though it only shows one kata, what do you guys think of the techniques?

DDATFUS
25th August 2011, 00:37
Though it only shows one kata, what do you guys think of the techniques?

I think that they are using long bokken. No word yet on the paper cutting.

Chris Parker
25th August 2011, 15:46
Ugh. As festooned with qualifications as this statement is, it still kind of makes me wince. :cry:

Sorry, Cliff... I was trying to find a way to diplomatically say "I wonder which system they've watched a video or two of and decided to try to copy?"


Thanks Paul, This is what I was looking for.

Though it only shows one kata, what do you guys think of the techniques?

There was technique?

pgsmith
25th August 2011, 19:24
Though it only shows one kata, what do you guys think of the techniques?
It is only one short kumitachi, so it is almost impossible to form any sort of opinion. However, considering the fact that uchidachi is supposed to be a senior level instructor in the art, I am very unimpressed with the quality of his movement.

Cliff Judge
25th August 2011, 21:53
considering the fact that uchidachi is supposed to be a senior level instructor in the art,

Are you saying this based on factual knowledge of tenshin-ryu or are you just assuming they train the way less, ah, nuveau schools do? In the aikiken I practice, there is no uchi / shi breakdown and both partners take turns. We also do all our kata three steps apart like these guys. Just sayin'.

pgsmith
25th August 2011, 23:24
Are you saying this based on factual knowledge of tenshin-ryu or are you just assuming they train the way less, ah, nuveau schools do? In the aikiken I practice, there is no uchi / shi breakdown and both partners take turns. We also do all our kata three steps apart like these guys. Just sayin'.
Neither. I'm saying that based on the fact that uchidachi is identified as being William Maren, who is described on their web site as follows ...
"He is now a student and instructor of the Tenshin-ryu, a style of Japanese swordsmanship, and the Yamate-ryu, a system of aikijutsu. Mr. Maren holds senior level license in both of these arts."

While I don't know what a 'senior level license' is in their art, I would expect him to move with a sword much better than he shows in the brief movements of the aforementioned kumitachi.

Maro
26th August 2011, 00:22
I would expect him to move with a sword much better than he shows in the brief movements of the aforementioned kumitachi.

Indeed. Laboured.

Is there some kind of rule that the higher the dodgy factor in a Ryu, the better their dojo is? :idea:

Cliff Judge
26th August 2011, 15:16
Neither. I'm saying that based on the fact that uchidachi is identified as being William Maren, who is described on their web site as follows ...
"He is now a student and instructor of the Tenshin-ryu, a style of Japanese swordsmanship, and the Yamate-ryu, a system of aikijutsu. Mr. Maren holds senior level license in both of these arts."

While I don't know what a 'senior level license' is in their art, I would expect him to move with a sword much better than he shows in the brief movements of the aforementioned kumitachi.

Okay, understood.