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luar
8th March 2001, 23:48
I have two of comments to make about the Seiku that would make for interesting discussion.

Originally, I never got around to memorize any of the basic three passages of the Chinkon. I simply read from the text. Not too long ago, I lost the copy that my Sensei gave me and so I got a copy from one of the various websites. What was interesting to me was that they were slightly different from the copy I had. The core message was still there but it looked like the translation was different. This surprised me that there was not one standard English text.

Another comment is that recently I have been experiencing some personal problems which have deeply affected me. Although I found my copy of the Chinkon, it was in such ragged and torn condition I decided to type up another copy.

As I typed up the Seiku, I found myself paying close attention to the words. I have been studying SK since last August and this was the first time they held any meaning to me.

I now have that memorized and when things get a little crazy, I repeat them to myself as a positive autosuggestion.

Gary Dolce
9th March 2001, 14:43
Raul,

Yes, there are several different English translations available of the components of Chinkon. I have always assumed that the "official" one was the one at the beginning of the English Fukudokuhon text, but there have been earlier "official" versions (including one on the old ID cards). In my Branch we actually use a different one - a translation that was the result of a collective effort by members of several Branches over the course of a long evening many years ago at a training camp. It was an inspiring effort which encouraged serious contemplation and discussion, and I have a lot of affection for the result so I continue to use it. I'm not saying it is better than any other translation, only that it hold more meaning for me.

This brings me to your second point, which is a very good one. I have a deep-seated mistrust of situations which involve large numbers of people reciting a creed from memory. One problem is that it is very easy to memorize something and to recite it daily, but never pay attention to the real meaning. I'm glad that your recent experience encouraged you to think about the words rather than merely reciting them.

George Hyde
9th March 2001, 15:47
Originally posted by Gary Dolce
I have a deep-seated mistrust of situations which involve large numbers of people reciting a creed from memory. One problem is that it is very easy to memorize something and to recite it daily, but never pay attention to the real meaning.


Fair point Gary.

However, I find that that regular recitation makes the principles impossible to ignore. It's one thing to 'have' the principles, quite another to 'acknowledge' them as part of one's daily practice.

We recite in the UK and understandably it's something that causes beginners some discomfort. In every lesson, we review absolute basics of technique during kihon - I encourage them to think of the recital as 'kihon'.

More importantly, I often find that even quite senior kenshi come to me with concerns over the content (this is after several years of recital). I'm encouraged by this since it at least shows that they are thinking about it and confirms the opposite to what you refer to above. In addition, whilst presenting me with the task of imparting further clarification, it aids and encourages my own deeper understanding. If it were simply consigned to paper it would be much easier to ignore (even more so if like Raul, you didn't even have a copy of it) and I would be less well informed of my students appreciation or acceptance of it.

Later,

Gary Dolce
9th March 2001, 16:28
George,

Thanks for your comments. Just to clarify, we do indeed recite Chinkon - but I continue to have concerns about whether people are really thinking about what they are reciting. To that end, I try to include discussions of Chinkon on a periodic basis as Howa. I would rather hear a student tell me what Chinkon means to him or her rather than just hearing that they have successfully memorized it. I agree that daily recitation can have the affect you describe, but I think it is also helpful to encourage it in other ways.

The exercise I described in my last message - doing a group translation of Chinkon - was particularly effective at increasing my own understanding. If you have one or two people fluent enough in both languages to do a good literal translation and provide cultural context, and a larger group of non-Japanese speakers who are willing to argue until late at night about how you describe those ideas in English, it can be both fun and enlightening.

It may be harder to repeat this experience now. One advantage that we had was that the "official" translation at that time was pretty poor, so we could start from scratch as we did this. The current translation (done by Michael Eastwood) is much better, and therefore harder to improve upon.

luar
9th March 2001, 17:01
Gary / George

These are very interesting replies and I thank you for them. I would like to respond to your discussion about require recitations.

I would say from the time we are kids till the end of our days there are many passages we commit to memory that we don't even pay attention to. This could be the national anthem, nursery rhymes, scriptures, famous quotes, commercial slogans, jingles, etc. Along the way some of those things become applicable when situations occur. Some are superficial, others are not.

Think of it this way... In English Literature, the vast majority of students will read the classics, do the homework assignments, get their grade and at the end of the semester, never pick up a book again. But there is always that one student who really gets into the material. It does not mean that he/she will become a writer but it could mean that he/she will have the proper eloquence to be a diplomat, a communicator, leader, etc.

Incidentally, most teachers usually live for that one student because they know they cannot reach everybody.


Cheers,

Anders Pettersson
13th March 2001, 13:09
In the previous posts in this thread there have been some discussions on different versions of the Seiku, Seigan & Shinjo. We over the years also had some different versions in Sweden as well, but made a new version in order for all branches to use the same (If remember correctly this was just before we officially established the Swedish Federation).

In Japan, for those that don't know, kenshi also read two other pieces called Raihashi & Dokun. They are read immediately after seated.

As far as I know these parts have never been translated. When this came up for discussion before the Big Crash of E-budo Michael Eastwood wrote:


Originally posted by Michael Eastwood

" As far as the Raihaishi and Dokun go, everyone thought it was best to leave them out back in 90-91 when I translated the primer, so I did. To be precise, however, the problem is mostly one of preserving the complexity of weighty terms. The reality is that Chinese language Buddhist teachings don't mean the same thing as Japanese language ones even when they use the same characters. (Let's not go into Indian roots either.) The same kind of sacrifices could be made when moving into English as made from Chinese to Japanese. I think a job would be possible in which the terms are transcribed as Japanese words and an annotated glossary is attached. However, the effort this would require is huge, because agreeing on these fundamental terms exposes differences among various teachers' thoughts on the heart of our philosophy. It might not be an exaggeration to consider this translation a Pandora's box. THAT is what I believe makes it impossible in most people's estimation. Of course, this is all usually expressed as, "There is no way to translate them correctly." The fact remains, however, that this is true of ALL translations. The reason it comes up here is that these terms are too close to the bone to be treated casually."

So does anyone know if there are any translations to any other language of the Raihaishi and Dokun?

luar
13th March 2001, 15:47
I recently got a copy of the Fukudokuhon and looked up the Seiku and it is slightly different from what I have been reciting.

This is the version we use:

"I am own refuge and source of strength
Who may I rely on on, if not myself.

A well integrated and ordered self,
Is truly a rare and precious fountain of strength.

By doing evil, I contaminate myself.
By not doing evil, I purify myself.
Purity and contamination come from within,
And others cannot purify my heart."

To be honest with you, I like this version better.

Ciao