Amatsu Tatara Hichi Buku Goshinjutsu and the Bujinkan and Genbukan

[Ninpo88]

Ohayo gozaimasu,

Hajimemashite,
I'm new to this forum and I train in Ninpo Bugei.
I also have a history of taijiquan, Ju-Jitsu, Karate and small amounts of Judo.

I'm interested in learning about Amatsu Tatara Hichi Buku Goshinjutsu and after reading about it online I've come to realise that the Bujinkan and Hatsumi sensei reference it as Amatsu Tatara Hichi Buku Goshinjutsu and that the Genbukan and Tanamura sensei reference it as Amatsu Tatara Bumon Shumon.

My question is: "Is there a difference between the two? Or are the different organisations just calling it different things?"

I believe that they were both taught Amatsu Tatara by Takamatsu sensei (Hatsumi & Tanemura sensei's.

Does anyone here practice any form of Amatsu Tatara?
I've also been given a knowing nudge over towards Shiatsu Massage, as a way of getting used to what Amatsu Tatara is all about.

Sorry for all of the questions!

Doumo Arigatou Gozaimashita,

Ninpo88

[Chris Parker]

Hi James,

Didn't like the answers you got over on MAP? Okay, I'll add to it here (MAP can be a difficult place to get straight answers...).

The Amatsu Tatara Hichi Buku Goshinjutsu is the "traditional medicine" concept that Hatsumi teaches on occasion, linked in with Taijutsu aspects and a few other ideas. Shiatsu has some cross-over, but it's not really the same thing.

The Amatsu Tatara Bumon Shumon taught in the Genbukan is a broader area, with Bumon referring to "martial gate", and Shumon referring to "spiritual gate", meaning that it is a teaching of martial arts and concepts and religious, or spiritual concepts.

In other words, they're not different names for the same thing in the two Kan's, they are two different things.

You've already been corrected on the idea of Tanemura learning Amatsu Tatara from Takamatsu, as he only met Takamatsu Sensei once, so I'm not sure why you didn't take that part out of the post. Tanemura Sensei's Amatsu Tatara teachings came from Kimura Sensei and Sato Kinbei Sensei, from memory (Genbukan guys can clarify that, hopefully), who received it from Takamatsu.

Where Takamatsu got it from is a matter of more contention - according to many in the Takamatsuden lines, it was a higher level of knowledge found in many martial arts, most particularly the Takagi and Kukishin lines, and it is definitely known that there are some Amatsu scrolls in the Kuki family, which were transcribed by Takamatsu. How much was from earlier material, and how much was his own addition is where the contention comes in.... and from there it gets rather complicated.

[poryu]

HI

The Amatsu medicine was featured in passing I believe in one of the old books by hatsumi sensei with some cartoon style drawings. I forget the title. they were basically just some stretching and massage techniques.

The Amatsu medicine as stated on MAP has been bulked up in recent times with additional material by the teachers and structured into levels.

Unfirtunately MAP is a junk yard these days. If you notice the moment the Moderator said keep it clean the thread fell to pieces with insults and abuse which is what MAP is only good for these days. The redirection from the thread was a complete joke and another example of 'lets attack someone who is not one of us' . Thankfully a member of the Genbukan did bring it back on track for it to be ripped apart again instantly.

[George Kohler]

My question is: "Is there a difference between the two? Or are the different organisations just calling it different things?"


The medicine/massage (Hichibuku Goshinjutsu) is just a small part of Amatsu Tatara. Amatsu Tatara includes:
History
Castle building
Strategies
Divination
Medicine
Flower arrangement
Tea ceremony
Religion
Martial arts
ect.

[Ninpo88]

Hi James,

Didn't like the answers you got over on MAP? Okay, I'll add to it here (MAP can be a difficult place to get straight answers...).

The Amatsu Tatara Hichi Buku Goshinjutsu is the "traditional medicine" concept that Hatsumi teaches on occasion, linked in with Taijutsu aspects and a few other ideas. Shiatsu has some cross-over, but it's not really the same thing.

The Amatsu Tatara Bumon Shumon taught in the Genbukan is a broader area, with Bumon referring to "martial gate", and Shumon referring to "spiritual gate", meaning that it is a teaching of martial arts and concepts and religious, or spiritual concepts.

In other words, they're not different names for the same thing in the two Kan's, they are two different things.

You've already been corrected on the idea of Tanemura learning Amatsu Tatara from Takamatsu, as he only met Takamatsu Sensei once, so I'm not sure why you didn't take that part out of the post. Tanemura Sensei's Amatsu Tatara teachings came from Kimura Sensei and Sato Kinbei Sensei, from memory (Genbukan guys can clarify that, hopefully), who received it from Takamatsu.

Where Takamatsu got it from is a matter of more contention - according to many in the Takamatsuden lines, it was a higher level of knowledge found in many martial arts, most particularly the Takagi and Kukishin lines, and it is definitely known that there are some Amatsu scrolls in the Kuki family, which were transcribed by Takamatsu. How much was from earlier material, and how much was his own addition is where the contention comes in.... and from there it gets rather complicated.

I'm not too worried about the answers I got on MAP that were derogative or ill-aimed towards my questions, I just thought it'd be good to post my query here too as there was a link to this forum from one of the Genbukan websites I'd visited during my search for an answer :)

Thanks for all the info


HI

The Amatsu medicine was featured in passing I believe in one of the old books by hatsumi sensei with some cartoon style drawings. I forget the title. they were basically just some stretching and massage techniques.

The Amatsu medicine as stated on MAP has been bulked up in recent times with additional material by the teachers and structured into levels.

Unfirtunately MAP is a junk yard these days. If you notice the moment the Moderator said keep it clean the thread fell to pieces with insults and abuse which is what MAP is only good for these days. The redirection from the thread was a complete joke and another example of 'lets attack someone who is not one of us' . Thankfully a member of the Genbukan did bring it back on track for it to be ripped apart again instantly.

It's a shame that a few individuals have to ruin these things but I've gotten my answers now so thank you :)


I'm just interested in looking into Amatsu Tatara and Shiatsu so thought I'd ask around.

Thanks