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Shiga
13th March 2001, 18:07
Greetings Fellow Budoka,

I dont study Aikido, I study Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but i really enjoy watching Aikido and going to Aikido demonstrations.
I recently went to a seminar (just to watch) for one night where Kato Shihan was teaching--it was very interesting.
My question is: what are the differences between Akikikai Aikido and Yoshinkan Aikido?
I look forward to reading your responses.

Jesse Duran

Ron Tisdale
14th March 2001, 16:34
A similar question was asked recently on the aikido journal forum. This was my answer. You may find some other answers under the organizations grouping on their bbs.

Question...
How is Aikikai different from other styles of Aikido ?
Thank you.


Ron Tisdale
Member posted 03-02-2001 12:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In some ways this can be a loaded question...every one likes the style of aikido they do the best, and in the long run, the differences may be supperficial. I'll give my shot at some kind of an answer.
The first thing to understand is that aikikai is not really a style...it is an organization. There are many different instructors who have ties to the aikikai; some are representative of a very powerful and direct aikido, some of a more flowing and circular type of aikido. Shirata Sensei was a good example of a very powerfull style of aikido associatied with the aikikai; Saito Sensei, of Iwama fame, is another.

I think that a lot of people associate the last doshu's somewhat less combative emphasis and the de-emphasis on weapons as being representative of the "aikikai"...this is not necessarily so.

Yoshinkan aikido (founded by Gozo Shioda) is the style that I practise and (of course) it seems to fit my personality and learning abilities very well. It stresses a series of basic movements, many of which I have not seen from non-yoshinkan instructors, and an attention to details that I did not see in some of the other places I've trained. I think that it also stresses (or at least retains) many of the linear techniques and atemi from the aikibudo period.

I have seen some high level practitioners of other styles, and guess what...at that level the similarities can be enlightening. A lot of senior people that I really respect stress that you should focus on the best instructor in your area, not so much the "style" of aikido.

A better question to ask might be what are the histories of and influences on the head/founding instructors of the different styles. Their linneages present some interesting information; but there is no guarentee(sp) that all of their students show the best parts of these influences. Some people to research might be:

Gozo Shioda S. (Yoshinkan)
Koichi Tohei S. (ki society)
Tomiki S. (The founder of the Judo(ish) style, named Shudokan I believe)

Rinjiro Shirata S.
Mochikuzi S. (spelling? first name?)
M. Saito S. of Iwama (first name?)
Chiba S. (first name?)

The one thing that I personally would avoid would be hybrids formulated by people with no real connection to Ueshiba S. Some people would include styles like Nihon Goshin aikido (at least in the states) in this category, but I am not in a position to make that call myself.

I hope this helps somewhat,
Ron Tisdale

[This message has been edited by Ron Tisdale (edited 03-02-2001).]

Karl Kuhn
14th March 2001, 18:52
Hi,

For the record that is Tomiki K. (as in Kenji) and Shodokan Aikido. It is not Judo-ish outside of the fact that it allows for Shiai competition.

Hope this helps,

Karl Kuhn

Greg Jennings
14th March 2001, 18:55
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Gozo Shioda S. (Yoshinkan)
Koichi Tohei S. (ki society)
Tomiki S. (The founder of the Judo(ish) style, named Shudokan I believe)

Rinjiro Shirata S.
Mochikuzi S. (spelling? first name?)
M. Saito S. of Iwama (first name?)
Chiba S. (first name?)
[/B]

Kenji Tomiki (Shodokan a.k.a. Tomiki Aikido)
Minoru Mochizuki (Yoseikan AikiBudo)
Morihiro Saito (Aikikai Shihan - Iwama/Ibaragi Dojo - Aiki Shrine)
Kazuo Chiba (Aikikai - USAF Western Region Shihan)

Note that he oldest and one of the few Yoseikan AikiBudo dojo in the U.S. is at the University of Alabama. My understanding is that YAB started in the U.S. at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, AL. A group there badgered a Japan Self Defense Forces officer into teaching them.

I'm in the process of trying to arrange a Friendship Training with them similar to what we've had at our dojo and at Aikido of West Florida.

Cheers!

Ron Tisdale
14th March 2001, 21:03
Thanks for the info!

Oh and Karl, the "S." was just my abbreviation for Sensei (I got lazy and didn't want to copy and paste it...). Actually, I have heard it (Shodokan) described as being closer to judo than other styles of aikido (I was being just a bit facetious). :) I haven't had the opportunity to train with some Tomiki Sensei folk yet, but who knows...one of these days!
RT

Karl Kuhn
14th March 2001, 21:47
"S." was just my abbreviation for Sensei\
Got it!

I have heard it (Shodokan) described as being closer to judo than other styles of aikido
Prof. Tomiki was one of Kano's top students when he began his study with Ueshiba and the system he developed mirrors Kano's work in a number of ways. So, although I do not think of it as being more judo-ish (grappling) it definately is more Kano-ish with competition and a more linear approach to learning. One of the things Tomiki did was find a way to include the atemi and kensetsu waza that got left out of Kodokan Judo into a safe randori, free play. Which, in my book, is a good bit of work.

I haven't had the opportunity to train with some Tomiki Sensei folk yet, but who knows...one of these days!
Yeah, I would really like learn more about the Yoshinkan, as you said.....one of these days.

Cheers

Karl Kuhn

MarkF
15th March 2001, 08:57
Originally posted by Karl Kuhn
Hi,

For the record that is Tomiki K. (as in Kenji) and Shodokan Aikido. It is not Judo-ish outside of the fact that it allows for Shiai competition.

Hope this helps,

Karl Kuhn

Hi, Karl,
My only exposure to aikido was shodokan aikido, but this was circumstantial, not a purposeful exposure really. It was simply the style being taught at a dojo where I had taught some judo classes in return for my workout time in the very early 1970s in NYC.

I find judo and aikido, speaking in generalities and basics, to be essentially the same thing. It was more than the shiai Tomiki introduced, as he was at least partly responsible for the Kodokan gohsin jutsu no kata in today's judo, at least since 1958.

Many do not like the term "grappling" applied to any form of aikido, but again, speaking of the basics, it is a form of tai jutsu, or "grappling."

The one basic difference I have found is in the "informed uke" as opposed to an "uniformed uke" in judo. Where an attack sequence is decided on a preconceived manner of attack, or the beginning deciding the middle and the end, in judo both the beginning and end are decided by the middle.

This is what decides the manner of randori, or the lack of same, and what is so fascinating of the two.

Aikido's randori is very similar to judo, but it also has tanto randori, which is much more prevelant today. All judo weapon techniques are contained in kata, something which has been forgotten by so many, and why international judo shiai has become what 'te artists call "tag." It has come down to partial point scoring which robs it of the more refined waza still practiced by a minority of judoka.

But yes, I find shodokan to be "judoish" but then I find aikido and judo to be remarkably similar to what the founders had set out for in the first place. Kano sensei said as much in the early twentieth century.:beer:

Mark

Justin Campbell
15th March 2001, 14:44
Ron,

You mentioned Nihon Goshin Aikido (NGA). Just to clarify some things, NGA has no direct links to O'Sensei or "Aikido." It is actually a Ryu-ha of Aikijujutsu and picked up the name Aikido in its early stages. I have heard two stories about the name NGA. One was that the founder actually called in "... Aikido." If he (Shodo Morita) did, then I would guess it was to describe it as a "way" of Aiki and not part of O'Sensei's art. The second story was that the person who brought the art to America (Richard Bowe) named it Nihon Goshin Aikido ... and that it was originally called Goshin Aiki. Regardless, there are some similarities between NGA and Aikido (the Aikijujutsu link) and some differences.

Having studied NGA for some time (back in the '90s) I can say that no matter what we think of it as "Aikido" it is awesome. If you are near a Dojo ... go see.

Here is a link to the NGA Hombu Dojo:
www.aikidoinc.com

Matthew Banks
15th March 2001, 18:09
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
A similar question was asked recently on the aikido journal forum. This was my answer. You may find some other answers under the organizations grouping on their bbs.

Question...
How is Aikikai different from other styles of Aikido ?
Thank you.


Ron Tisdale
Member posted 03-02-2001 12:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In some ways this can be a loaded question...every one likes the style of aikido they do the best, and in the long run, the differences may be supperficial. I'll give my shot at some kind of an answer.
The first thing to understand is that aikikai is not really a style...it is an organization. There are many different instructors who have ties to the aikikai; some are representative of a very powerful and direct aikido, some of a more flowing and circular type of aikido. Shirata Sensei was a good example of a very powerfull style of aikido associatied with the aikikai; Saito Sensei, of Iwama fame, is another.

I think that a lot of people associate the last doshu's somewhat less combative emphasis and the de-emphasis on weapons as being representative of the "aikikai"...this is not necessarily so.

Yoshinkan aikido (founded by Gozo Shioda) is the style that I practise and (of course) it seems to fit my personality and learning abilities very well. It stresses a series of basic movements, many of which I have not seen from non-yoshinkan instructors, and an attention to details that I did not see in some of the other places I've trained. I think that it also stresses (or at least retains) many of the linear techniques and atemi from the aikibudo period.

I have seen some high level practitioners of other styles, and guess what...at that level the similarities can be enlightening. A lot of senior people that I really respect stress that you should focus on the best instructor in your area, not so much the "style" of aikido.

A better question to ask might be what are the histories of and influences on the head/founding instructors of the different styles. Their linneages present some interesting information; but there is no guarentee(sp) that all of their students show the best parts of these influences. Some people to research might be:

Gozo Shioda S. (Yoshinkan)
Koichi Tohei S. (ki society)
Tomiki S. (The founder of the Judo(ish) style, named Shudokan I believe)

Rinjiro Shirata S.
Mochikuzi S. (spelling? first name?)
M. Saito S. of Iwama (first name?)
Chiba S. (first name?)

The one thing that I personally would avoid would be hybrids formulated by people with no real connection to Ueshiba S. Some people would include styles like Nihon Goshin aikido (at least in the states) in this category, but I am not in a position to make that call myself.

I hope this helps somewhat,
Ron Tisdale

[This message has been edited by Ron Tisdale (edited 03-02-2001).]


The tomiki style is not called shudokan, its called shodokan. The shudokan, is an aikido school which came from the yoshinkan , but the affiliation on paper ended in the 80's. The head of the organisation is Thamby Rajah sensei 9th dan. Sorry I had to straighten that one out.

cheers

Matt

Ron Tisdale
15th March 2001, 20:35
Justin Campbell,

Hi. Please don't take offense...I am somewhat familiar with Nihon Goshin, but not enough to speak of its effectiveness. I only meant to say that if its Ueshiba's aikido you want, that some might say NG would not be the place to go. In this sort of discussion, effectiveness is neither here nor there.

***************

Matt,

I think I confused the two due to an internet aquaintence who is a member of the Shudokan. Thanks for the heads up. :)

Ron Tisdale

Matthew Banks
15th March 2001, 22:34
Originally posted by Ron Tisdale
Justin Campbell,

Hi. Please don't take offense...I am somewhat familiar with Nihon Goshin, but not enough to speak of its effectiveness. I only meant to say that if its Ueshiba's aikido you want, that some might say NG would not be the place to go. In this sort of discussion, effectiveness is neither here nor there.

***************

Matt,

I think I confused the two due to an internet aquaintence who is a member of the Shudokan. Thanks for the heads up. :)

Ron Tisdale

Im a member of the shudokan, I would now who he is. What was his name. It may have been me as Ive spoken to you before


Matt Banks

dainippon99
16th March 2001, 04:14
Tomiki sensei said aikido was, in his opinion, judo without the closed sapce that is involved in most (all?) judo techniques.

MarkF
16th March 2001, 09:40
Hi, Bobby,
Yes, that is what Tomiki said all right, and Prof. Kano said much the same thing, in fact, when he saw it, he said that it was what he wished for judo to be.

The book "Judo And Aikido" by Kenji Tomiki is one of my favorites and why I don't necessarily say any of the few techniques I've managed to plag,er...stea...er, utilize is not judo. The differences are so minor as to make it more difficult to explain than it is worth.

Slowly, some are staying away from all but local shiai and want some SD in their training. Tomiki's Goshin jutsu is also the Kodokan's. But the differences and purposes of today's judo shiai and tomiki shoshu and tanto shiai are so different as to have little in common, at least in modern shiai. The purpose began for much the same reason's as Shodokan shiai.

Ron Tisdale
16th March 2001, 14:18
Hi Matt,

The guy I know goes by Sai, on rec.martial-arts. I believe he just left for Berlin recently. The deja archives aren't available yet on the new company that bought them out, and all I remember (getting old) is his nickname...I didn't realize you were with the same org. (unless *you* are Sai....).

Ron Tisdale

Mike Collins
16th March 2001, 15:54
Hey Shiga,

Where did you see a Kato Shihan, and what style of Aikido was he teaching? I'm curious because I've trained a bit with a Kato Hiroshi sensei, who is of the Aikikai line, and he just taught a seminar in this area. Maybe I saw you there?

Gil Gillespie
16th March 2001, 16:31
Briefly mentioned in several above posts was Minoru Mochizuki, founder of Yoseikan Budo and, I have long believed, the most unfortunately overlooked personage on this website. MA history awards Tomiki Sensei proper recognition for coming from Kano's side to study with Ueshiba Sensei and then fashioning his own judo-based Aikido. Yet beneath Mt Fuji on the banks of the Abegawa in Shizuoka City Mochizuki Sensei has developed another classical budo based on his world class judo.

He is in his 90's now, largely infirm and living with his son Hiroo in France. In 1990 Hiroo unveiled a "new" competition-based Yoseikan inimical to his father's views. Mochizuki Sensei (holder of 60 various dan ranks!) abhors Japanese budo's trend toward sports competition. Visit the website www.yoseikanbudo.org. I am a student of Dennis Hooker and Dr Dave Jones through Saotome Sensei's Aikido Schools of Ueshiba.

I value my brief exposure to Yoseikan and apologize that one so unqualified as myself seems to be the voice of this organization on E-budo.

dainippon99
16th March 2001, 21:04
Namaste, mark,
i myself am guilty of ...well..."playing" with some judo technique in my randori in my dojo. seoi nage is a favorite ; ). I havent gotten a chance to read judo and aikido, and since im a bit of an aikido scholar, this upsets me. but maybe some day i will.

TIM BURTON
17th March 2001, 15:29
Hi,Tomiki Kenji clearly stated that he viewed Aikido with a “Judo mind”. It is clear that when creating his version of the system that he followed two tried and tested models, Kano’s Judo and Kendo, both already well established in the educational curriculum. The similarities can be seen in comparisons between Shodokan Aikido and Kodokan Judo.

The kata are grouped under two headings SHINKEN SHOBU meaning real sword contest or actual combat and RANDORI meaning freeplay.

There are two main influences. SHODOKAN, the dojo of KENJI TOMIKI (1900-1979) and KODOKAN the dojo of JIGORO KANO (1860-1938).

SHINKEN SHOBU NO KATA

SHODOKAN GOSHIN JUTSU
This is a kata of fifty techniques. Beginning in the kneeling position and evolving through standing, knife defence, sword defence, spear defence, spear retention and sword against sword. Its creator is Tomiki Sensei and it was formalised around 1958 with the help of OBA Sensei (1910-1986). This kata is called KO RYU DAI SAN by Tomiki Aikido practitioners and preserves the old teachings of DAITO RYU AIKIJUTSU as passed down to Tomiki by UESHIBA Sensei (1883-1969)
KODOKAN GOSHIN JUTSU
This is a kata of twenty one techniques. It covers defences to grabs, blows with the hands and feet, and attacks by a knife, stick and pistol. It was created by a committee of 21 Kodokan Sensei, including MIFUNE and TOMIKI and was brought in to update the KIME NO KATA created by KANO sensei.

RANDORI NO KATA

SHODOKAN
JUNANA HON NO KATA
This is a kata of seventeen techniques created by TOMIKI Sensei to enable the practise of Aikido within a similar contest format as Judo. Again it was created around 1958 and is more commonly referred to as RANDORI NO KATA by Tomiki Aikido.
KAESHI NO KATA
This is a kata of ten counter techniques to the above kata. The kata was created by Tomiki and is also known as URA WAZA NO KATA.
KODOKAN
NAGE NO KATA
Created around 1888 by KANO Sensei, this kata sets out the main principles of Judo freeplay. It consists of fifteen techniques divided into five sections that represent the core principles from the GO KYO.
KATAME NO KATA
This kata contains fifteen techniques of Ne waza or ground fighting. Again created by KANO Sensei in 1888. It is divided into three sections that detail holding, strangulation and joint locks.

Karl Kuhn
21st March 2001, 02:39
Mark et al,

"I find judo and aikido, speaking in generalities and basics, to be essentially the same thing. It was more than the shiai Tomiki introduced....."

You are absolutely right, I take my all too brief quip about Tomiki's method not being Judo-ish back. I think I was responding in a very knee jerk way to a comment that is often thrown about when people who unfamiliar with the art are looking to distance it from aikido. There is the question however, as to why my limited judo time does not seem to benefit much from my aikido experience. Wait, maybe if I praciticed more....... hhhhmmm..........

"It was simply the style being taught at a
dojo where I had taught some judo classes in return for my workout time in the very early 1970s in NYC."

Where/who was that, if you don't mind my asking. Ping me direct, if you'd like, sounds interesting.

Karl

The Piranah
21st March 2001, 14:07
hi, altho i mainly train in ki aikido and shin gi tai aikido, i have done some yoshinkan, now this was quite a while ago, when i was starting and my main feeling of it was that although shin gi tai, which is my main style, is pretty energetic, yoshinkan is literally SMASH! soory, but thats the best way i can discribe it

Ron Tisdale
21st March 2001, 14:27
"I take my all too brief quip about Tomiki's method not being Judo-ish back. I think I was responding in a very knee jerk way to a comment that is often thrown about when people who unfamiliar with the art are looking to distance it from aikido. "

You know, it didn't occur to me that my statement might sound that way...my appologies if I offended anyone. It certainly was not my intention. I've been told there are some similarities between Shodokan and Yoshinkan stylistically. Gozo Shioda was also an accomplished judoka. And I wouldn't want to make judo sound any less than aikido...some of my judoka friends would take their ounce (I mean pounds) of flesh the next time we train... :)

Ron Tisdale

Shiga
21st March 2001, 16:37
Greetings Fellow Budoka,

I just finished reading the book "Angry White Pajamas" and thats what got me started thinking about Yoshinkan style Aikido.
Is anyone here familiar with the "senshusui" course (I think thats a mis-spelling) of the Yoshinkan that is the subject of the book?
Have any of you aikidoka participated in the course?
What are your thoughts on it?
Is there anything similar in the U.S.?

I look foward to reading the replys!
thanks
Jesse Duran

Ron Tisdale
22nd March 2001, 15:39
One of my dojo mates is currently in the course, and I've met and trained at some seminars with the man who used to be the chief foriegn instructor (Robert Mustard Sensei). He is an excellent instructor and a really great person.

From all accounts, it is a rigorous course. If you search rec.martial-arts, you'll find some good info on the course by Spike Kimeda, one of the current instructors (I don't know if he is the top foriegn instructor or not). If you would like more info on Yoshinkan, I'd suggest reading any of Shioda Gozo Kancho's books. At least two of them are commonly available in the martial arts section of major book stores.

I'd also recommend reading Shioda Gozo Kancho's contribution to Stanly Pranin's "Aikido Masters: Pre-War Students of M. Ueshiba". Also, if you search on Yoshinkan, and/or Shioda on this board, there are some interesting tidbits you might turn up.

I think other styles of aikido have some uchi deshi programs in the states (one in colorado I believe). If you go on rec.martial-arts and look for Julian Frost, he can direct you to some excellent long term training opportunities that are aikikai based (and he's a really nice guy, too. Lots of good info from him). Good Luck,

Ron Tisdale