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DZRMAN
16th March 2001, 13:49
I was wondering how much time you guys allow for free play and how much attention you put into your kata's?

MarkF
17th March 2001, 09:30
A good question, and it depends on teachers, the dojo, age of judoka, etc. I think most do put tachi randori at the top of the list, and kata seems to be relagated to warmups or self-defense.

Tradition says randori really is "randori no kata" so does that enforce the importance of randori? Probably so. I usually start classes with some kata, eg, goshin jutsu and kime no kata, and I teach in pieces of kata, as I don't know how to do it any differently. Even in this, after some thirty-seven years, the majority is spent practicing a new or review of a particular waza, then the class partners up for randori. In cases of mixed classes, with less-experienced adults, and more experienced children, I have an intra aquad shiai for the kids, so as to spend more time with the others.

That is the way I was trained, and as in the conditioned response, that is the way I teach as well.

I forgot to answer your question. Since there is no such thing as perfection, a new waza is practiced. kata takes about one-half hour (I don't really teach kata in its most perfect state), usually doing kata for SD. The rest is mixed randori tachi or katamiwaza.

I hope this helps some.

Mark

Stephenjudoka
17th March 2001, 15:34
Hi,

I think this depends on what you are training for.
In my club we run several types of training. Monday and Thursday nights are purely for randori. The class meets at 2000hrs, we warm up and stretch together, then we randori until 2200hrs.
We have a clock that ring every three minutes which signals its time to change your partner.
All grades attend this session from white belt up to and including 5th Dan.

On other nights we hold skill training - where new techniques are taught and old techniques are re-visited. I must admit kata is not usually practiced unless someone needs to learn it for a grading. (This is not usually done in the class but privately on the edge of the mat).

I have found that on randori nights all members of the club attend but on skill training nights it is usually the lower grades who attend.
I think you will find most competitive Judoka will spend more time on randori and less time with kata. On the other hand you will find the non competitive Judoka spend more time on kata and less with randori.

Judo suits all types of people and can give them whatever they want, be it randori, competition or kata.

Stephen Sweetlove

MarkF
18th March 2001, 10:35
The clock thing is a good idea, particularly for working toward competition. I usually try to work in a shiai/randori in classes, though not everyone is going to fight every night, but this gives the opportunity to teach students how to time matches. Those who fought in the previous class shiai, are time keepers, and one for all opportunities, sonomama, osaekomi/waza-ari, etc.

With the rules changing as they have lately, I think the basics here are important. Knowing calls and hand signals, etc. I think important, especially for the younger ones. Most local shiai is done the to the old standards of thirty sec. for osaekomi/ippon, twenty-five/ waza-ari, etc., at least once a year there is one according to IJF rules, to a large extent. This is workked out well before hand, though.
*****

At a previous dojo, I would open on Saturdays for randori only classes, but with four a week, it got old fast.

Mark

Stephenjudoka
18th March 2001, 21:30
Mark,
I know the feeling my body has seemed to have aged very fast over the last year.
I have always loved randori and still give it my best shot. However my joints suffer next morning and my knees are in a terrible state. Mind you the rest of the body is okay.

I have never trained juniors but I have I great senior club. We have 3x5th Dans, 4x4th Dans, 2x3rd dans and have a membership of a 60 players of which over two thirds are Dan grades. So you can imagine how hard Monday and Thursdays are.

If you are ever over here pay us a visit.

Stephen Sweetlove

DZRMAN
19th March 2001, 02:44
Mark and Stephen I appreciate the replys. However since I have read your posts it has made me ask another question? I was wondering If you think Formal kata is very important in understanding the applaction of the techinque's? If Kata is very important then why do most judo club's (the one's I have visited) focus on just application?

MarkF
19th March 2001, 09:33
Thank you, Stephen, same here when ever, email me.

Mark

TIM BURTON
19th March 2001, 10:31
Hi John,
Kata forms the basis of all feudal systems in Japan. Within a kata’s sequences are preserved the techniques and principles of the Ryu. In order to benefit from kata, one must first begin to understand how multilayered they are.
When we watch a performance of a kata, we see its front face or OMOTE. This is the visual representation of the techniques in the kata, being performed correctly. It takes actual participation in the performance of a kata, to begin an appreciation of its URA or reverse face. This is the part of the kata that is hidden behind the scenes. The Ura of a kata can be subdivided into important, but not always readily apparent components such as Embusen, Bunkai and Oyo.
EMBUSEN is the line along which a kata is performed. It is usually represented by the mental image of “tram lines”, along which one’s feet travel during a performance of a kata. This line is extremely important as it is used to tell us where our feet should be, the angle of an attack, the position of a technique and the position at which Uke finishes up.
It is used to teach correct technique and to correct technique, as it supplies a visual reference to an instructor, who can tell if a technique has been executed incorrectly, by examining the respective positions of Tori and Uke on the Embusen.
This line has its origins in the feudal battlelines of Japan. Here, row upon row of soldiers faced each other. As a soldier moved forward into battle they would first have to engage an enemy to their front. Once they had overcome this opponent, they had to face the soldier in the enemy’s second row, but also had to be aware of their flanks as they moved forward into the battle. Pushing on into the third row of enemy soldiers the samurai now had to be aware of their front, flanks and rear. So the samurai pressed on, sometimes advancing, sometimes retreating to protect their flanks and rear from attack, before once more advancing towards their objective.
BUNKAI is the analysis of a kata’s true meanings and examines the YOTEN or key points, the HENKA or Variations, the FUSEGI or defences and the KAESHI or its counters. It also includes the study of KAKUSHI WAZA or hidden techniques.
OYO is the application of all these principles during the performance of the kata.
Therefore Kata have a lot to offer as they contain the principles of a system which are to be passed on to our descendants without the medium of a book or video tape. The problem arises when we examine what we are trying to achieve in the martial art we practice. If we are trying to learn and understand the art in its entirety then kata are necessary. If we are concentrating on randori and shiai, then a lot of the techniques contained in kata are disregarded as they do not seem to have a place in modern randori. One can fill a lifetime learning and mastering the competitive techniques and variations of today’s Judo without touching the in depth knowledge contained within the arts kata.
It comes down to the individual’s use of Judo, if one is competing, then to learn a variation of a technique we are using on the mat is more desirable to a kata that does not provide this type of input. However if one does not participate in competition for whatever reason, age, injury, etc. Then kata may well contain the intellectual and physical sustenance required to maintain your interest and continued practice of the art.

Stephenjudoka
19th March 2001, 11:53
Hi John,

I think Tim has answered the question for me.
I fully agree with what he says.

Stephen Sweetlove

MarkF
20th March 2001, 09:07
Yes, well, what Tim said.:)

Mark

Ben Reinhardt
20th March 2001, 20:43
Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
Hi,


Judo suits all types of people and can give them whatever they want, be it randori, competition or kata.

Stephen Sweetlove

After all it is Judo, the flexible way !

Ben Reinhardt