Tomiki Aikido 1

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Everyone,
Any Tomiki Aikido practitioners out there?
What are your views on Tomiki methods of technique application against the traditional?
Tim Burton UK

[TIM BURTON]

Is there any Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido practitioners out there?
Well as a start then, Tomiki sensei when creating his style of Aikido drew heavily from Kendo and Judo in order to create a system of randori. Tomiki wanted to test Aikido techniques (which operate from a different ma-ai) in the same way as Judo and Kendo. His studies led him to operate randori in Sen no Sen when ever possible rather than Go no Sen. In order to promote his randori theories he stored the traditional Aikido knowledge in a series of kata that he entitled koryu dai itch, ni, san, etc. Tomiki was then free to expand his “modern” theories concerning the application of Aikido techniques in a freeplay situation. Often teaching in a shirt and tie, Tomiki challenged traditional Aikido. Once one starts to apply traditional principles in a randori situation, (all be it that the attack is designated), then there seems to be a necessity to alter our view of traditional Aikido. Most Shodokan techniques operate using irimi or omote. Movements are pared down to become effective in a randori situation. Remember, the “BIG” difference is that uke is not only committed to scoring against you, they are acutely aware of your ability to respond and therefore expect and attempt to foil your techniques. One is faced with a wary uke not a uke resigned to the fact that they will be the recipient of a technique.
As a system of defence Tomiki’s Aikido surely prepares one far sooner to deal with a real attack situation than traditional Aikido ever does!

[dainippon99]

Hi tim,
I'm a shodokan practitioner for about 2 1/2 years now. i absolutely love it. I love how close shodokan is to aikijujutsu. I think that tomiki's system is great for its scientific approach, as well. Its easier to comprehend because there is a way to do things, before things start to flow naturally (if you konw what i mean). I think the randori system is a great idea, but i dont beleive in competition with other aikidoka. I sure dont beleive in it becoming an olympic sport. Cant wait to hear some replies to this post.

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Bobby,
Yes Shodokan Aikido does give you a bit of a clue as to what is required of you when performing a technique in the early stages of practice. The method of logically naming each technique also helps when learning or teaching, as confusion does not reign. From the basic form of the randori no kata these techniques are further explored during the practice of Kakarigeiko and Hikitategeiko. After this Randori takes the students a stage further in the learning process. Shiai is the final stage, should the student wish it. Here the practitioner is exposed to competition.
It is imperative though that the practitioner takes something away from this type of training, lessons learnt in shiai or randori should be used to re-evaluate our basic technique and promote better understanding and improvement, or it is in vain.
It would be extremely difficult to encourage competition between other Aikido styles as there are rules and certainly some of their techniques would not be allowed. This would promote the age old martial art dilemma faced when ever inter style competition is discussed, “We would have won if you allowed this technique”. This would be the same argument concerning the Olympics for those inclined to this type of participation.

[DJM]

Hi Tim,
I've been studying Tomiki Aikido for, on and off, about a year now. I'm still 6th kyu, mainly down to a combination of lack of consistent practice (illness/injury combinations) and a general lack of desire to grade - it's not why I'm doing Aikido. I've changed my mind about that to a point - but mainly from a feeling of obligation to my Sensei to offer as many higher kyu grades in his dojo as possible to help bring in new students.. (I think, also, that it might be counter-productive for brand new student seeing 6th kyu people doing 1/2-way decent flips from kote gaeshi!). In a similar manner to Bobby though, I have no desire to take part, or watch (except to support friends) competitive Aikido - indeed I feel that it would be a sad day that Aikido chose to go the root of 'sport Judo' and join the Olympics.. I feel that Aikido would suffer technically, and spiritually, should this happen.
Obviously just a personal view, but I've seen signs of things moving in this direction already - and I feel it would be a great loss to Tomiki Aikido should this come to pass...

Peace,
David

[TIM BURTON]

Hi David,
Thank you for taking the time to reply, but I am not sure if I understand your reply correctly. Tomiki style Aikido is in essence “competitive” in as much as its basic kihon are taught, in order to be used against another in a competitive arena. This type of Aikido can only function on a “sporting level”, within its own style. I was attracted to it via Judo I must admit, but I cannot see how it could be the vehicle for Olympic Aikido.
It is the ability to apply techniques to a wary adversary rather than a committed adversary that attracts me to this particular style of Aikido. In randori, if someone is thrown or controlled, you know this is due to correct application of technique by you, rather than an acceptance of the technique by uke.
Again, it is the benefit you wish to attain from a martial art that dictates ones preferences. Spiritually I use Tomiki Aikido to focus during randori, I try to remain calm and react to an attack , Technically I take the lessons learnt, whether by victory or defeat, and then review my technique at its basic level, why did it win, why did it fail. I reapply these lessons and try to improve my technique accordingly.
PS
How do you people get those clip art graphics to appear under your details in the first column?

[OldRonin]

I studied Tomiki style once a week for a year recently. I greatly appreciated what I learned there while doing randori. It opened my eyes as to how one must move to capture the ki of a wary adversary, something I did not get in my standard aikido training. Also, the necessity of learning effective counters is particularly of immense value to those seeking to be a well-rounded artist.

Here in the US at least, Tomiki folks are often looked down upon as being "illegitimate children" of aikido by the mainstream aikidoists. Personally, I prefer the Tomiki approach to training, but to each his own. I can appreciate the benefits of both approaches to training, but I think their training goals differ enough that they will have difficulty training together unless they are really open minded about it. I thought aikido was all about universal harmony, and to me that includes appreciating those whose martial art focus differs. As long as the practitioners are sincere, and of pure heart, they should be considered brothers and sisters in budo.

I would like to read more discussion in this thread about the technical aspects of what kinds of combinations seem to work, and what initial response fits well with the possible counters and counter-counters. I do not consider myself expert enough in Tomiki style to add much, but I would love to read others shared wisdom on the topic.

[DJM]

Tim,
I don't find Tomiki style Aikido - at least as taught at my dojo - in the slightest bit competitive. Granted we have kakarigeiko, and we're working towards hikitategeiko, but we use these things cooperatively - in the sense of working to better each other's Aikido. So, when you're uke, you do your best to attack, and resist with stance in the case of hikitate, but you're doing it to assist tori.
The idea of 'Olympic' Aikido - or even scored competition Aikido - to me at least, flies in the face of everything else we study within Aikido.
The idea that, in conflict, you must have a winner and a loser I find almost diametrically opposed to the spirit of Aikido at its most fundamental level - i.e. it's spirit, and intent, rather than the physical side... Ultimately I see Aikido as a way of ending the cycle of win/lose - and to make this integral part of Aikido saddens me greatly..
The idea of working with a wary adversary does, I agree, add a great deal of value to Tomiki Aikido (perhaps the biggest thing, for me, is that it ensure you have proper understanding of uke's points of balance) - but this only works when we are working to help each other.. The moment I work against you, in spirit, I have walked from the path...
Just my own thoughts,
David
p.s. In your setup, you need to sort out an Avatar - it has to be small, about 50x50 pixels I think..
p.p.s. I just noticed OldRonin had posted as I was writing this.. I'd like to say that I've trained in both Tomiki and Aikikai situations, and at both there were a mix of Tomiki and Aikikai students. I feel that you've hit the nail on the head when you say 'open minded' - this is, for me, an essential part of Aikido - to be able to enter a situation without pre-conceptions, and to respond to what you find...

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Dr Evans,
I have started a separate thread to discuss Shodokan/Tomiki techniques, its only been going a few days but I hope members will post some of their experiences in this style of Aikido.
I do agree that Aikido is about harmony and I have trained in many different systems and within them many different styles. I have not met many senior grades that bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge there are other ways out there seeking the same goals but by different routes. The main difficulty is getting ones students to “peer out of the well and see the world”. Once this is achieved then development on a level you describe occurs.
Hi David,
An end product of Tomiki’s system is Shiai. This is competition, and there is a winner and a loser. I think though that one should focus on what is learnt during Shiai. We react differently under stress and Shiai puts you under stress. One can clearly see Aikido principles deserting a player as they struggle to adjust to the attacks. Likewise one can also marvel at the seemingly effortless and controlled techniques of someone who has managed to retain these principles. It is important to take these images and use them to mould our own Aikido towards its original intention, harmony.
As Dr Lee Ai Loi says “it is better to lose well showing Aikido, than to win without showing Aikido principles”.

[Sam]

Hello everybody,

I think everybody has covered the point very well.
I have done shodokan aikido for almost seven years now and my observations of this style compared to traditional aikido is that I think that both types have equally valid and technically correct technique, but I feel that traditional akido (and some tomiki clubs) may fall apart because of a lack of a logical system of learning.
Shodokan practitioners are able to practise basic skills every training session and then go on to practise techniques which are grouped together in a meaningful kata. The addition of randori exercises such as uchikome and renzoku practise are the basis of learning application and without this system I would probably feel lost.

As for the olympic format I hope you realise that randori will not be the only basis for competetive participation. With only randori we have nothing to offer to add to judo.
I believe that the format for the games is going to be a team event with each member of the team competiting in a class of embu (with a second team member) of randori directly against the opposing team. I think included are sections of the goshin-no-kata, the randori-no-kata, tanto randori, toshu randori and taisabaki randori.
In this way there is emphasis of correct form in the competetive event as well as good randori. It would also make the event much more entertaining.

[Karl Kuhn]

Hi,

Interesting discussion. There are a couple of things that caught my eye....

I don't know if it looking at "Tomiki methods of technique application against the traditional" would be as informative as seeing their commonality and how to better our aikido. Divisiveness will lead nowhere.

"indeed I feel that it would be a sad day that Aikido chose to go the root of 'sport Judo' ... I feel it would be a great loss to Tomiki Aikido should this come to pass.."

Shodokan Aikido is commonly referred to as "aikido kyogi" Sport Akido in Japan, so that day has come and gone. I think it is very important that people develop an understanding of the method of "free play"/ randori that Prof. Tomiki brought to Aikido and the different levels available. If you do not wish to participate in Randori Shiai that is fine, there is no judgement about that. To call in to question it's appropriateness for other aikidoka or it's place in the method is another matter entirely. At any rate, you should be doing some type of randori.

"An end product of Tomiki’s system is Shiai"
Well, no. Randori Shiai is just another training to to betyer one's aikido, no more no less. This may be a metter of semantics, but I think it is important to point out.

Oh, I liked the Dr. Loi quote!

Cheers,
Karl Kuhn

[DJM]

Originally posted by Karl Kuhn

(snip)

"indeed I feel that it would be a sad day that Aikido chose to go the root of 'sport Judo' ... I feel it would be a great loss to Tomiki Aikido should this come to pass.."

Shodokan Aikido is commonly referred to as "aikido kyogi" Sport Akido in Japan, so that day has come and gone. I think it is very important that people develop an understanding of the method of "free play"/ randori that Prof. Tomiki brought to Aikido and the different levels available. If you do not wish to participate in Randori Shiai that is fine, there is no judgement about that. To call in to question it's appropriateness for other aikidoka or it's place in the method is another matter entirely. At any rate, you should be doing some type of randori.

(snip)

Cheers,
Karl Kuhn

Karl, and Tim,
Thanks for the alternative viewpoints. I stand by what I meant, though I may not have said it very well.. I have no problems with randori, or any other form of tori/uke free-practice. I feel they're one of Tomiki Aikido's biggest strengths - the way it helps you get used to thinking on the fly - eventually (hopefully) leading you towards mushin... The problem I have - and it's very specific - it with having winners/losers, and the mentality that develops round this.
I (as all my opinions it's subjective - AND subject to change and education! ;)) see no problem with testing your Aikido with an uke who's going through various stages of resistance as your Aikido gets better. I feel, however, that the 'sports' mentality - having winners and losers, rather than having everyone a winner because their Aikido is getting better - risks leading to a situation where your victory is more important than helping your partner progress his/her Aikido. To my way of thinking, you stop practicing Aikido at that point, spiritually, which to my mind is what makes Aikido Aikido, rather than an alternative Aikijujutsu ryu..
I'd welcome opposing points of view, if you can explain where my thoughts differ from yours..
Regards,
David

[TIM BURTON]

David,
One is always allowed, their own perspective, if we inhibited this, it would not be Budo. One should be open enough to take on any point of view. I personally think that we must be careful that a line is not drawn that confuses a student. I heard a story of Mushashi defeating an opponent with a wooden sword. Oyama stopped a bull with a tsuki, These were great martial artists who valued the teachings of the art, just as you do. Yet did not the man who had his head caved in by Mushashi’s oar, “lose”? Did not the bull“, lose”? Mushin is the ability to make another “lose” without conscious thought, or preparation. If we achieve anything by our study of a martial art, do we not then forsake it by the readiness to defeat another?

[Karl Kuhn]

David,

Just curious, have you been an organized Shodokan/Tomiki event/competition? Sure, there are winners and losers but so what? In the events I have attended those that "did not win" got as much out of and had as much fun as those that "won", often more. I am unsure about the "mentality" you are concerned about. Is it a "win-at-all-costs-no-regard-for-your- opponent-trophy-hungry mob" Well, the internet seems to be full of them but I have yet to meet any of them on the mat and I've been to a number of international events.

The path of Aikido is many streams coming together and it is not all contrary to have a "competitive" mind and a "spiritual" mind in the same skull/body/mind. I mean, there are competitions in Ikebana! It sounds (and forgive me if I'm wrong or just sound pompous) like the place "win vs. loss" needs needs to be vanquished is within, you know?

If you have had specific experiences where you thought there was an imbalance, I like to hear about them. Ping me direct if you prefer.

Tim,

uuuhhhh FYI, both the Musahi/ oar and the Mas Oyama story are considered fictions. Fictions that end in death, I might add.

Cheers,
Karl Kuhn

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Karl,
Mushshi's exploits are hidden in time, but have a look at Total Karate or What is Karate, to see the photo's of Oyama and the bulls.