View Full Version : Open sparring tournaments
Rob Gassin
4th March 2012, 08:29
Can & should kenshi compete in open MA tournaments?
Omicron
4th March 2012, 20:07
The way I see it, there's not much to lose but a lot to gain. Tournaments are an excellent way to meet practitioners of different styles, and thereby gain insight into one's own skills and training. Anyone who practices Shorinji Kempo with an eye toward self-defense could learn a lot in such a tournament as well. After all, if you end up in an altercation on the street, chances are you're going to be up against a style other than Shorinji Kempo (most commonly, it turns out to be "drunk fu"). Even though a tournament is really only an approximation of such an event, it is useful once in a while to practice defending against things other than typical techniques from one's own style.
Omicron
4th March 2012, 20:32
I'd also like to preemptively state that I believe competition to be compatible with most of the core values of Shorinji Kempo, despite the disdain with which many kenshi seem to view competitive events.
Ken Zen Ichinyo
Tournaments require both mental and physical preparation. What better way to experience the interconnectedness of mind and body than to test them both at the same time? Overcoming nerves while maintaining peak physical performance is necessary for success in a tournament. Winning is less relevant here; more important is the act of calming mind and body, uniting memorized principles with physical actions.
Riki Ai Funi
The spirit of camaraderie and fellowship built through competition is invaluable. Not only does a martial arts competition encourage friendship and support among team mates, but it also fosters discussions and relationships with practitioners of other styles. In my mind, nothing better exemplifies the principle of [/i]riki ai funi than the hug or handshake that happens at the end of a match. In my experience, it's very rare for competitors to feel any resentment toward each other, and much more common is a post-tournament trip to the bar or coffee shop with new friends (whom we were attempting to beat silly only hours before!). Executing techniques against strangers while realizing that they are people too and are therefore deserving of our love and respect is a fantastic way to apply this principle in practice.
[i]Shushu Koju
Want to practice defense first? A competition is a great place to do so! It can test your mental and physical ability to stay true to this principle.
Fusastu Katsujin
A tournament is also an excellent way to embody this ideal. The rules and refereeing are designed to maintain a safe and friendly environment for everyone involved, as the object of a tournament should always be the development of the individual competitors, not victory. As such, a tournament environment forces us to consider the safety of our opponents. Even more so, I would argue, than doing compliant partner work in the dojo.
Other principles, like kumite shutai and goju ittai, are more self-explanatory, and can similarly be developed in a tournament atmosphere. All it takes is the right mindset. I really don't see any significant drawbacks to kenshi entering open competitions.
Tripitaka of AA
4th March 2012, 20:45
Where's the "Like" button?
Great posts Brady.
Omicron
5th March 2012, 03:03
Thanks, David! Sorry for the formatting blunder there...I was writing hastily during my lunch break at work.
Rob Gassin
5th March 2012, 10:20
Great, very well thought out, reply Brady.
Nevertheless, Hombu discourages such participation.
Does Hombu have'punishment' for kenshi who enter such tournaments and if so , does it apply to kenshi wearing the official SK dogi or any kenshi who registers his style as SK?
Gassho!
I find this view to be quite one-sided (see below). The basic problem is that it assumes an ideal kind of competition in which no ego is involved, everyone's working towards bettering themselves (and others) while remaining or becoming fast friends, and beating others, triumphing over them, has no meaning whatsoever. While this is an ideal worth of aspiring to (see the Dokun's "ideal world"), it is far from what we see in modern martial arts competitions, in my experience.
Please understand that in no way am I fundamentally opposed to MA competitions. I just think that blue-eyed views like this can be quite dangerous. I invite anyone who doubts this to watch any current MA competition or even compete in one (I did once or twice, a while back, but my experience is far from extensive). Or does anyone here thing that, for example, Klitschko and Chisuro are going to be friends anytime soon?
In detail:
I'd also like to preemptively state that I believe competition to be compatible with most of the core values of Shorinji Kempo, despite the disdain with which many kenshi seem to view competitive events.
Ken Zen Ichinyo
I have no issues with the points made regarding this, beyond what I stated generally.
Riki Ai Funi
In my experience, it's very rare for competitors to feel any resentment toward each other, and much more common is a post-tournament trip to the bar or coffee shop with new friends (whom we were attempting to beat silly only hours before!).
This is quite contrary to my experience. As I stated above, it's not necessarily wrong, just quite one-sided. If it works, great. But in reality – and in my experience/opinion – it is quite likely for people to bear resentment far beyond a fight if they have issues with the fact that or reasons why they lost etc.
Shushu Koju
Want to practice defense first? A competition is a great place to do so! It can test your mental and physical ability to stay true to this principle.
This is not completely wrong but certainly disregards the fact that in any MA competition I've ever participated in and am aware of it is not allowed to remain completely defensive throughout a fight. Also obviously it's not possible for both participants to practice this (at the same time).
Fusastu Katsujin
I agree with the point made about rules but again would like to direct attention at the difference between the ideal and the reality: Very often people fight in a way intentionally geared towards injuring their opponents, especially in those seconds when one fighter has been incapacitated but the referee doesn't react quickly enough or choses not to interfere (yet).
Other principles, like kumite shutai and goju ittai, are more self-explanatory, and can similarly be developed in a tournament atmosphere. All it takes is the right mindset. I really don't see any significant drawbacks to kenshi entering open competitions. While the former is quite obvious, the latter is something I've very rarely seen in a competition, when it comes to SK-style Juho. Yes, there's MMA, but has anyone ever seen for example a wrist lock or throw in any of those fights ever?
The last sentence of the quote clearly exemplifies my main point of criticism: while there are certainly advantages of competing, it is simply naive to claim not to see any drawbacks to it. I'll deliberately refrain from naming examples (that haven't been named in the rest of the post) to get readers to think about this for themselves.
Summary: I see some pretty big benefits from competing / free fighting with(!) others. I'm not sure open competitions (i. e. audience, the goal of winning fights) are the best way for this, but I would never say that they don't have any advantages at all.
I'll close by saying that there are literally hundreds of different exercises for free application of SK techniques that I see as both beneficial and quite exhaustive. I also appreciate the idea of cross-training or doing these exercises with people from other styles.
Kesshu,
______ Jan.
Omicron
5th March 2012, 18:27
I find this view to be quite one-sided (see below). The basic problem is that it assumes an ideal kind of competition in which no ego is involved, everyone's working towards bettering themselves (and others) while remaining or becoming fast friends, and beating others, triumphing over them, has no meaning whatsoever.
This is a fair point. I can't say that every kenshi will always have a positive experience when entering a tournament. However, I again stress the value and importance of pushing oneself beyond one's comfort zone, even (especially?) when this means encountering ideas and beliefs different from those encountered in the dojo. What better opportunity to stand up for one's own ideals than in a situation where others may disagree? Surely, the core beliefs and values of SK are meant to be practiced outside the dojo as well; what's the point of believing in something if you purposefully avoid situations where your beliefs will be challenged? Regardless of the motivations of other participants, or even of the tournament organizers themselves, kenshi can still participate in tournaments while staying true to themselves.
[re: riki ai funi]This is quite contrary to my experience. As I stated above, it's not necessarily wrong, just quite one-sided. If it works, great. But in reality – and in my experience/opinion – it is quite likely for people to bear resentment far beyond a fight if they have issues with the fact that or reasons why they lost etc.
Sure, this may be true for some people. This would not be acceptable for a practitioner of SK, though. A competition affords kenshi the opportunity to experience this very natural response to physical confrontation, but then to rise above it using their philosophical grounding in SK. Far too many people "talk the talk" by sitting around discussing such principles. Here is an opportunity for kenshi to also "walk the walk".
[re: shushu koju]This is not completely wrong but certainly disregards the fact that in any MA competition I've ever participated in and am aware of it is not allowed to remain completely defensive throughout a fight. Also obviously it's not possible for both participants to practice this (at the same time).
Indeed, competitions have rules related to being overly-defensive. This goes back to my previous statement that a competition is really only an approximation of a physical encounter. For there to be any benefit to the participants, rules must be in place to ensure the event moves at a reasonable pace. This is really just an extension of what is already practised in the SK dojo: even though the curriculum stresses defence first, there is always an attacking and defending partner. We cannot practice defence without there being offence to respond to. This is not an encouragement of offence, but rather the creation of an environment in which defence can be practised.
[re: fusastu katsujin]I agree with the point made about rules but again would like to direct attention at the difference between the ideal and the reality: Very often people fight in a way intentionally geared towards injuring their opponents, especially in those seconds when one fighter has been incapacitated but the referee doesn't react quickly enough or choses not to interfere (yet).
Such behaviour is not required in a tournament, and is the choice of the individuals involved. Kenshi would be in no way obliged to conduct themselves this way.
...the latter is something I've very rarely seen in a competition, when it comes to SK-style Juho. Yes, there's MMA, but has anyone ever seen for example a wrist lock or throw in any of those fights ever?
This is potentially a whole other can of worms, but here we go. A big reason you don't see SK style wrist locks in competitions is that they are in fact very hard to pull off against a fully resisting opponent. I learned this lesson the hard way when I first started practising BJJ. I was fully expecting to have difficulty applying the juho that I had learned because I was aware of the fact that I had never really had to do so on anyone who wasn't being at least partially compliant. However, feeling like my years of training in SK had left me totally unprepared for the reality of a resisting opponent was a humbling experience I will not soon forget. Sure, I pull off the occasional wrist lock on an unsuspecting opponent, but that's usually only after I've subdued him with some other form of technique.This is not meant to be a criticism of Shorinji Kempo, but rather further evidence of the importance of getting out there and encountering situations you just won't find in the dojo. This goes for practitioners of any style.
The last sentence of the quote clearly exemplifies my main point of criticism: while there are certainly advantages of competing, it is simply naive to claim not to see any drawbacks to it. I'll deliberately refrain from naming examples (that haven't been named in the rest of the post) to get readers to think about this for themselves.
OK, I can agree with you here. I perhaps should have used a word different from "drawbacks". We can agree, as the discussion above shows, that there are certain moral and philosophical concerns surrounding tournaments when viewed through an SK lens. However, as I have argued above, I don't think these pose insurmountable problems, and while it may have been a little too overarching for me to say there are no drawbacks, I would still argue that the benefits of competition more than outweigh them.
Summary: I see some pretty big benefits from competing / free fighting with(!) others. I'm not sure open competitions (i. e. audience, the goal of winning fights) are the best way for this, but I would never say that they don't have any advantages at all.
I'll close by saying that there are literally hundreds of different exercises for free application of SK techniques that I see as both beneficial and quite exhaustive. I also appreciate the idea of cross-training or doing these exercises with people from other styles.
I completely agree! Anyone who comes over to Vancouver for the North American Taikai should give me a shout. I'd be more than willing to be that person from "another style". Be careful though...I know all your secrets :D
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