The Shape Of Throws

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Everyone,
When looking through some books on the subject of Judo it struck me that the positions of throws demonstrated are not really true representations of the actual positions needed to attain the technique. Take for example O soto gari, most books depict both parties in positions of mutual advantage, one then bends forward and raises their leg to the rear throwing their partner.
This is not the type of O soto gari we deliver or receive. One only has to watch a contest to see the absolute commitment of the throw, the performer drives forward and down towards the mat to ensure the kuzushi required is provided.
Surely in this modern age of coaching, we should be taking steps to ensure that a novice gets the correct shape for a particular technique even if it is only from the pages of a manual.
Tim Burton UK

[Stephenjudoka]

Hi Tim,

I am in full agreement with you on this. As a coach I never show throws standing still. I always add movement in order for my students to learn the correct breaking of balance, the right time to attack and the correct power and movement needed to complete the throw.

Books are not good for showing this but there are many good videos that do show correct form and movement.
Many of these videos show the throw, then slow it down and then show the throw being used in competition.
The latest video to show this is called 'The Wind' distributed by Fighting Films.

Stephen Sweetlove

[MarkF]

I agree with you both.

I was taught as a youngster to do this throw as described in Kodokan Judo, but later found that off-balancing just a little more to the side gives you opportunity to "throw" yourself into it, IE, as in chest to chest. Masahiko Kimura did the throw in the way that I teach it for shiai, or at least that is my intention. I'm not a coach, so the goals differ some.

Done in that way coming out of a failed front throw may also have some use of the opposite side o soto gari. With my lack of height, coming out of a front throw usually gave me my only opportunities. For a coach, though, I think you are dead on concerning how a nage should be taught, Stephen.

Books and videos can be deceiving as the throw should be different from, ever so slightly, player to player.

The Pictures of Mifune doing the throw may be the correct way, and it does make the reversal more difficult, but there seems to be too much space between tori and uke.
*****

Stephen,
The video "The Wind?" That wouldn't have anything to do with Kyuzo Mifune's kukinage, would it?

[Stephenjudoka]

Mark,

The video I was refering to is about Koga the current world and olympic champion.
It is a top class video.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Ben Reinhardt]

Mark F. wrote:
The Pictures of Mifune doing the throw may be the correct way, and it does make the reversal more difficult, but there seems to be too much space between tori and uke.
*****

I'd say Mifune had his own unique was of doing things that came from his exposure to Aikido of M. Ueshiba.

One thing to consider is that a lot of the standard ways we have learned to to nage waza are done in such a way to demonstrate the principle of throwing involved very explicitly. Another is that as Judo was not originally intended to be done as sport, the demonstration forms of the throws may be more related to doing them in real combative situations that probably involved weapons or at least deadly force such as atemi waza. I think Osoto Gari is a good example of that. Doing it with an uppercut to uke's chin or throat makes the "standard form" work a lot better than holding onto a sleeve and lapel !

For competition, nobody is throwing punches, or has hidden weapons, and thus there is a lot of free movement and odd postures that take place.

What remains constant is the principles of throwing that Kano so vividly elucidated. Whether doing sport or martial art, they remain the same.

Ben Reinhardt

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
Mark,

The video I was refering to is about Koga the current world and olympic champion.
It is a top class video.

Stephen Sweetlove

It's "Koga: A New Wind".

And it's a very good video.

Interestingly, Koga learned all the "standard" Judo as a kid, then went on to invent his own unique versions of Seoi Nage and Sode Tsurikomi Goshi. He does a superb demonstation of a text book Ippon Seoinage in his video.

Ben Reinhardt

[TIM BURTON]

I was once told that O soto Gari orinated from a technique whereby the user rammed their spurs into the unprotected calf of an armoured foe, what do we think of that then?

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by TIM BURTON
I was once told that O soto Gari orinated from a technique whereby the user rammed their spurs into the unprotected calf of an armoured foe, what do we think of that then?

That's hilarious !

Ben Reinhardt

[Bouya Tengu]

Has anyone considered the different look of a throw with subtle Kuzushi? Sport or olympic Judo seems to have large, forced movements and a huge expenditure of energy. On the other hand, Some Judo is still practiced with subtle kuzushi and little to no energy, the way Kano himself practiced. Obviously an elderly or slight practitioner cannot force a huge man to the mat using the same high strength used in modern competition, but with correct form (Kuzushi, Tsukuri, Shirabe etc...) he can get the same result....a downed opponent. The throw would look different in many ways but would still be the same throw (or principle), just taking into account the opponants movement etc...

Callum Davey
Bujinkan Ishizuka Dojo's New Zealand
(Also a Judoka)

[TIM BURTON]

Originally posted by TIM BURTON
I was once told that O soto Gari orinated from a technique whereby the user rammed their spurs into the unprotected calf of an armoured foe, what do we think of that then?
So what are the origins of O soto gari? How did it come into being? How did it get its shape? Surely it was around before Kano included it in his Kodokan Judo and must have a purpose that was unchecked by rules.
I don’t know the answer, does anyone?

[MarkF]

And it's a very good video.

Interestingly, Koga learned all the "standard" Judo as a kid, then went on to invent his own unique versions of Seoi Nage and Sode Tsurikomi Goshi. He does a superb demonstation of a text book Ippon Seoinage in his video.

Ben Reinhardt




I have video of Koga, but not that particular one. This is a montage of kata, descriptions and examples of waza in shiai. Koga does things I've never seen before, but once in a while someone iss doing his variation of seoinage.

He is devastating. I have asked what the throw is, but most say it is seoinage, but when asked to look in slow motion, it isn't, but it is.:D

There are some clips around the Internet of Koga, one or two on Judoworld.com and two or three on http://judoinfo.com . They may be variations, but I don't think they are they same throw[s]. In matches, the look on the face of some who have lost to him are priceless. It is simply unbelieveable.

He is an exception which proves the rules.;)

Mark

[MarkF]

Tim,
There is a teacher of aikijujutsu (I think Seigo Okamoto) who said nage waza has the shape ? of a question mark. Perhaps there is more to this.

[TIM BURTON]

Hi Callum,
I know what you mean, I was lucky enough to have been taught Judo in my formative years by Masutaro Otani sensei 8th Dan and president of the British Judo Council. At this time his sons Tomio and Robin Otani were also teaching although I think that Tomio had some sort of long term illness or injury that kept him off the mat.
Otani sensei for those that did not know him was very small and slight and of course at this time (the early seventies) was advanced in years. We followed the path of Kyu shin do as originated by Kenshiro Abbe sensei 8th Dan.
Otani sensei was the epitome of the style using a relaxed stance accompanied by soft, quick gentle movements that threw you before you knew what was going on. To this day I have not been able to mimic him (still trying). He stood very erect and the jigotai he taught was for the feet to remain in natural posture with the knees slightly bent and the upper body straight and erect whilst pushing the body weight through the hips to the front at about 45%. I can spot a Kyu shin do judoka a mile off because of this trait.

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by Bouya Tengu
Has anyone considered the different look of a throw with subtle Kuzushi? Sport or olympic Judo seems to have large, forced movements and a huge expenditure of energy. On the other hand, Some Judo is still practiced with subtle kuzushi and little to no energy, the way Kano himself practiced. Obviously an elderly or slight practitioner cannot force a huge man to the mat using the same high strength used in modern competition, but with correct form (Kuzushi, Tsukuri, Shirabe etc...) he can get the same result....a downed opponent. The throw would look different in many ways but would still be the same throw (or principle), just taking into account the opponants movement etc...

Callum Davey
Bujinkan Ishizuka Dojo's New Zealand
(Also a Judoka)

Hello Callum,

Olympic Judo is not as unsubtle as it looks. The intricacies of gripping, position, and movement are very important. The principles of Judo still apply, and those that apply them best usually win.

That said, the top athletes are quite strong. They are competing in weight divisions where the differences in physical strength are not usually so great...all the top players are in top physical condition. So what does it boil down to ? Effective application of the principles of Judo that Kano so carefully and clearly stated.

The idea that strength is not important in combat is just not true.

A smaller weaker person will have to be very highly skilled and lucky to defeat a larger, stronger opponent (or be well armed ! ). They might not use as much strength to do so, but the same principles apply as in Olympic/sport Judo.

It's all Judo.

Ben Reinhardt

[Stephenjudoka]

Hi Ben,

I fully agree with what you say. To be good at Olympic Judo you have to be able to apply all the principles of breaking balance etc.
In top class competition all the players are around the same standard.

As Mark said earlier all throws are the same it is only the person that differs. What osoto gari works for me will be applied differently by a smaller or larger person.
The throw fits around the shape of the player.

However what Tim asks is true. You can not learn the shape of a throw from a book. A book never shows the breaking of balance, or movement or how to move your oppenent into position to be able to attempt the throw.
This can only be learned by practice, randori and eventually competition.

Stephen Sweetlove

[Ben Reinhardt]

Originally posted by MarkF


I have video of Koga, but not that particular one. This is a montage of kata, descriptions and examples of waza in shiai. Koga does things I've never seen before, but once in a while someone iss doing his variation of seoinage.

He is devastating. I have asked what the throw is, but most say it is seoinage, but when asked to look in slow motion, it isn't, but it is.:D

There are some clips around the Internet of Koga, one or two on Judoworld.com and two or three on http://judoinfo.com . They may be variations, but I don't think they are they same throw[s]. In matches, the look on the face of some who have lost to him are priceless. It is simply unbelieveable.

He is an exception which proves the rules.;)

Mark

I think that when we see these outstanding judoka "inventing" variations of standard throws it is an example of what Judo is about. At first we blindly imitate, then we master, then we separate and find our own path, following and using the principles we learned in the first two stages. At some point, technique get's transcended. We do the right thing at the right time on the spot without really thinking about it, or "invent" a movement to counter a certain attitude by uke.

I think the japanese term is "shu ha ri".

Ben Reinhardt

[MarkF]

Hi, Ben,
You're right, of course, but I found him to be THE example and a bright light of judo. I had forgotten to mention him, but I did watch the tapes again last night (early morning actually).

I don't know why I didn't think of him, but perhaps I was blinded by trying to be right instead of proving I was wrong. IMO, he is the greatest judo fighter of the modern era times ten.
*****

I found I had to modify nearly all of what I learned simply because of a lack of height and weight. It isn't anything like Koga, but it again is something which can be forgotten over the decades.

Mark

BTW: Of course this means I am going on a shopping spree to see what else I've missed.:)

[TIM BURTON]

Originally posted by MarkF
Tim,
There is a teacher of aikijujutsu (I think Seigo Okamoto) who said nage waza has the shape ? of a question mark. Perhaps there is more to this.

Can anyone out here help? Any Roppokai know what was meant by Okamoto sensei?