There are no stupid questions...

[Tucker Peterson]

Only stupid people, and I'm one of them. :)
I was reading through another topic and someone said that a specific Japanese ideogram was based on a specific Chinese ideogram.
My question is this: Aren't all Japanese ideograms based on Chinese forerunners?
As I understand it, the Japanese took the written Chinese ideograms and applied it to their own spoken language. Is this incorrect?
I'm sorry to trouble you for such a minor thing; I just am trying to whittle away at my ignorance.

Thanks,

[Mark Brecht]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
Ok guys,

To my understanding this Kanji is ORIGINALLY chinese. It means "<b>Tolerance</b>"....

I see nothing wrong with a supplier of chinese MA equipment using a chinese character that says "<b>Tolerance</b>"....

Sorry for the confusion... The point of the thread was that people assumed automatically that a popular "kanji" had a "certain" Japanese meaning... I was just reminding them that it is not neccesarily JAPANESE...

<i>To my understanding</i><b> this</b><i> Kanji is ORIGINALLY chinese...</i>

I apologize, I think i expressed myself here wrong... (yes, basically all Japanese Kanji derive from Chinese...)

:smokin: English is my second language, so i have an excuse... Bahhhhhhh...! ! !

[john mark]

Originally posted by Mark Brecht
<i>To my understanding</i><b> this</b><i> Kanji is ORIGINALLY chinese...</i>

I apologize, I think i expressed myself here wrong... (yes, basically all Japanese Kanji derive from Chinese...)

:smokin: English is my second language, so i have an excuse... Bahhhhhhh...! ! !

Yup Kanji is what I would call traditional Chinese characters, i.e., presimplification, although I've seen some Japanese publications that mixed the old and new characters.


Originally posted by Mark Brecht
The point of the thread was that people assumed automatically that a popular "kanji" had a "certain" Japanese meaning... I was just reminding them that it is not neccesarily JAPANESE...

In my experience there is, but it is often very subtle. Sometimes it has a distinctly Japanese flavour, e.g. suigetsu (water and moon) is often used to mean solar plexus or sternum.

BTW - I recently met a guy with a tattoo that he thought said "Hope". Unfortunately, …

[Kit LeBlanc]

John,

Good point about tattoos. There was a thread around E-Budo a while back on tats in general. In my line of work I see quite a bit of tattoos. Often very poorly done.

Often people have Hanzi on their bodies that are either NOT what they think they mean, or so poorly written as to be illegible.

Did see pictures of a hard core Mexican Mafia guy once with perfectly written (native hand, it seemed) characters tatted on his neck. One was a girl's name (an English name transliterated) another was his moniker. Very interesting. He apparently had some smuggling contacts with the Chinese mainland, so I am told.

Kit LeBlanc

[Tucker Peterson]

Okay, so while the actual kanji may be Chinese, the meaning assigned to it by the Japanese may be different from the Chinese meaning, yes?

And Mark, I never guessed English was not your native language. I actually just assumed you were an American of German descent (I have several friends who are). :)

Thanks everyone,

[Tami]

From what my husband says (he is Chinese) the meanings are generally pretty close. He can read Japanese kanji in Chinese--or something like that. We spent a day together in Tokyo while back. I had been there before and could get around ok, but he could read many of the signs which I couldn't. He can read my rank certificates from Hatsumi-sensei--but he knows what they say in Chinese--which when translated into English is pretty much the same as what it says in Japanese.

I think some of the differences are kind of like US English vs. British English vs. Australian English, etc.

Does that make sense? :confused:

:cool:

[Tucker Peterson]

Yeah, when you put it like you do (American vs. Queen's Vs. Aussie English). Thanks Tami. :)

Regards,

[Kit LeBlanc]

Tami,

RE: Chinese vs. Japanese being similar to American English vs. Aussie English etc.

Not at all.

Chinese and Japanese are completely different language GROUPS, they are not even as close as, say, Romance languages are to each other. During my East Asian Studies undergraduate work, I read somewhere that Japanese, an Altaic language I believe, is closer in fact to Turkish than it is to Chinese. Don't know if that is true or not.

The English dialect analogy probably fits Chinese and its various dialects better, although with Chinese many dialects are probably more like "as different as French, Italian and Spanish."

Now, put all that on hold for a minute.

I had one professor tell me that it was a mistake of history that the first written language that the Japanese encountered was Chinese. The Japanese adopted and adapted Chinese learning to their (linguistically unrelated) language (including in some cases sounds, etc. ) and it stuck.

It became a mark of higher learning in Japan to read and write in Chinese, and/or to read and write a Japanese/Chinese mix which used Chinese characters sometimes for sound value, sometimes for meaning, and I would imagine sometimes both. (From what I understand the kana syllabaries were already being used, primarily by women or at last became primarily used by women, and can be considered truly "indigenous" Japanese. Don't quote me on this, though).

All that being said, many of the kanji (Hanzi in Chinese) have the exact same meaning or symbology. I have a number of Japanese budo books and magazines and I can make out quite a bit about the topics simply from my Chinese study. But I would not say I can "read" them except for the occasional, few and far between passages.

Over time I have learned some of the Japanese pronunciations and so, for example, with different ryuha names or common martial arts concepts, I know the Japanese readings, or at least the Sino-Japanese readings. I can often tell what the name of a ryu means, but not how to pronounce it, for example, unless I hear the Japanese name and can make the connection.

In practical terms this means that you can usually locate the men's and women's rooms, bookstores, noodle shops, and other stuff through signage, by reading Chinese and not Japanese. You can read dan certificates if there is not too much kana, etc. You can read some newspaper headlines but not the stories, etc.

There are a lot of twists and turns though. The kanji for heart, which often means "mind" conceptually in Chinese and Japanese, is pronounced shin in Mandarin, shin in Japanese, and sum in Cantonese. But Japanese also uses an indigenous pronunciation of kokoro.

The character for "Way" is dao in Mandarin, do (or michi) in Japanese, and do in Cantonese.

"Sensei" is xiansheng in Mandarin, seensang in Cantonese; and while it can be used to mean teacher, in Chinese it usually means "mister."

You would never get some of the Japanese pronunciations, and only some of the Sino-Japanese pronunciations, through Chinese study, but you would know what they mean.

Now, for an interesting twist. I have heard that the Chinese that the Japanese adopted was mainly Tang dynasty era (618-907C.E. ) Tang Chinese is supposedly closer to Cantonese, which is why there is "do" instead of "dao," but this does not always apply. Maybe someone who has gone beyond the shallow little bit I've gleaned canhelp out. There have been several posters on E-Budo with advanced experience in Chinese AND Japanese who might be able to go a little deeper.

Kit LeBlanc

[Tami]

Kit,

I only meant the analogy in terms of the written languages, not the spoken. Most analogies break down fairly rapidly, but from my limited experience, I still think as an oversimplification the analogy is fair--according to my husband you can usually make out what is being communicated when written, if there isn't too much simplification, much like you can figure out the different forms of spoken English.

FYI, Chinese dialects are way different when spoken, but the written language is the same for all Chinese.

My husband speaks Mandarin. When we lived in Ireland several years back we had some friends who are from Hong Kong so they spoke Cantonese. Their Irish/English with a Chinese accent and my husband's US English with a different Chinese accent were often incompatible--so was their spoken Chinese. But, they could write things out and understand each other just fine. It was interesting to watch them all scrambling for pen and paper everytime we got together. :)

Respectfully,
Tami

[john mark]

Chang Xiaojie,

Nin hao.


Originally posted by Tami Chang
Chinese dialects are way different when spoken, but the written language is the same for all Chinese. … But, they could write things out and understand each other just fine. It was interesting to watch them all scrambling for pen and paper everytime we got together.

Hmmmmm … This doesn't always work as the dialects are also grammatically different. When you add in vernacular differences, even the written stuff is hard to understand. For an example <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/170/x186.htm">di(2)</A> <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/164/x104.htm"> shi(4)</A> and <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/167/x97.htm">ba</A> <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/164/x104.htm"> shi(4)</A> are common words in Hong Kong, but unknown in Hebei for an example. Another example is the phrase <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/165/x180.htm">da(2)</A> <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/170/x186.htm">di(2)</A>.

Your right though, pen and paper or "drawing" the character on the palm of your hand is a very common way for us Waiqiao to communicate with the folks from the Mainland.


Originally posted by Tami Chang
When we lived in Ireland several years back …

Do you know what happens when you cross a Chinese guy (me) with an Irish lass (my wife)? Beautiful kids!! As my boxing coach use to say "You and Carla, you got the formula."

Happy St. Patrick's Day.

[Kit LeBlanc]

Tami,

I have to go with John on the written language.

I began Mandarin studies with a man who lived in China pre-1949, so I studied the complex characters first, then later the simplified. While many of the simplified characters are quite different, the differences are fairly easily overcome with a little study.

But I know at least the written dialects of Cantonese and Mandarin often use different grammar, and even common usages or regional usages that are VERY different.

It first hit me when I started seeing Hong Kong Cantonese newspapers and glossy popular magazines and seeing LOTS of characters and combinations I was unfamiliar with. (E.G. "mo" instead of "mei you," and I NEVER saw that character, even in Chinese dictionaries, before seeing Cantonese. Others..."deem yeung," "gay noy," etc. etc. These are completely different constructs than you'll find in Mandarin.)

After taking classical Chinese for a few terms, it seemed that I was seeing more classical usages still found in Cantonese but not in Mandarin. (your opinion, John?)

Still, in everyday conversation, people might very well be able to understand each other writing down what they meant. But the Cantonese speakers would have to remember terms they do not use in regular everyday speech, because what they do use in many cases would not be understood by Mandarin speakers.

My wife is Chinese, but I am of French ancestry. We don't have kids yet, but I think the mix will be fine.....

Kit

[Harold James]

To get back to Mr. Peterson's post about the Japanese and Chinese characters and Mr. LeBlanc's references to heart being either "shin" or "Kokoro" and Tami's husband's ability to read Japanese:

Japanese uses characters borrowed from the Chinese characters, but not in all cases do they have the same exact "meanings" as they are used in Chinese. Some kanji represent only a sound and have no meaning of thier own, though these are only a very few. Remember that things like verb conjugation are accomplished through the use of hiragana (okurigana) and even if you knew what the kanji meant in Chinese, the whole sentence will have a meaning based on grammar derived from how the kanji is used with the hiragana , something like tense, or possesive forms, or causative forms... you get the point. Then mix in the use of hiragana as particals as grammar and if you don't know what they mean, you can't really understand the meaning of the sentence even if you can understand the meaning of the character. I think there is a big difference between a causative verb form written with a character and the same character being used as a conditional interms of really understanding what the sentence is trying to say.

(Don't forget katakana used for loan words, italics, and onomatopoeic words written in Manga!)

Most kanji have two ways of reading them, "Kunyomi" (ŒP“Ç‚Ý)?@when the character is being used to express Japanese words of "similar" meaning to the kanji's Chinese meaning, and usually is followed by okurigana (in hiragana) that is used as an inflection system.

The other way to read a character is the "Onyomi"?@(‰¹“Ç‚Ý). This is an approximation of the Chinese reading. Usually, the Onyomi is used when the the kanji is in a compound and the Kunyomi when it is used alone.

Most kanji have 2 or 3 (some a lot more) kunyomi and onyomi readings each.

Kanji can be divided into the following catagories:


ŽwŽ–•¶Žš
Shiji Moji:
Pictographs that represent abstract concepts like up and down. ?ã?@‰º


?ÛŒ`•¶Žš
Shoukei Moji:
Pictographs of simple objects such as the sun, mountians, rivers...?@“ú?@ŽR?@?ì?@


‰ïˆÓ•¶Žš
Kaii Moji:
An Ideograph- Simple symbols and pictographs combined to make a complex ideas.

Œ`?º•¶Žš
Keisei Moji:
Phonetic-ideographs- These make up 85% of the total number of kanji used in the Japanese language and combine elements of semantic and phonetic meanings.

“]’?•¶Žš
Tenchuu Moji:
Kanji whose meanings and pronunciations have changed due to their representation of non-original sounds and meanings.

‰ï˜õ•¶Žš
Kasha Moji:
Kanji that have no meaning but simply represent a phoneme (a sound) and is used as a type of syllabary.

An extra category of kanji does exist: Japanese only Kanji
?‘Žš
Kukuji:
Representing only a small number of the total kanji, these originated within Japan and always have a Japanese reading and never have a Chinese reading.

How many Kanji are there... too many!

In 1981, the Monbusho officially adopted (from previous standardizations- the Toyo kanji or Appropriate Use kanji 1,850 characters) the Joyo Kanji list: 1,945 plus the 10 roman numerals (since 1992.) This list is called the Joyo Kanji (?í—pŠ¿Žš) list. The Japanese goverment set this standard so that newspapers and magazines could be read easily by the Japanese people. Roughly 90% of all the kanji used in a Japanese newspaper is written from the Kyoiku kanji (kanji for general education) and are the first 996 Kanji from the Joyo list. Prior to 1946, one needed to be able to read around 4,000 characters to be able to understand a newspaper.

This does make reading documents from before WWII much harder than reading documents that were written after the war. Reading older stuff like older Makimono is hard for even native speakers.


Disclaimer: The above terms for the kanji are pretty technical and if I made mistakes digging them, and the rest of this too hard to read post, out of my notes I appologize. Since I have used a lot of romaji I don't want to spend the next hour using the spell shecker, so I'll appologize for the bad spelling and grammar now.

Have a nice day

[john mark]

Hi Kit,


Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc
After taking classical Chinese for a few terms, it seemed that I was seeing more classical usages still found in Cantonese but not in Mandarin. (your opinion, John?)

Now your testing the limits of my knowledge; but I think the answer is yes, at least in the US. The reason for this phenomena, I believe, can be traced to immigration patterns and to the post '49 attitudes of certain parties towards tradition. [No flames please.]

Best,

[Tami]

Fellows,

I bow to your superior knowledge ;)

Leaving the language bit aside for a moment, my husband and I have two absolutely drop dead gorgeous Amer-Asian daughters ages 18 and 16. Boyfriends always comment, "Your dad looks mean," to which they reply, "Yeah, but it's my mom you got to watch out for...." :D

John Mark,

Do you find couples such as you and your wife as uncommon as we have? The opposite combination of Asian wife with whatever husband seems much more common. We find our family is a curiosity to others when we travel--especially in China. Once in a store in Shanghai I thought a man was going to fall off an escalator trying to look at us. Our kids say the only place we have ever traveled where they didn't feel kind of weird was Hawaii. Have you found the same to be true for your family?

Respectfully,
Tami

[Tucker Peterson]

4,000 characters to read a paper?! And American kids complain about learning their ABCs... :)

I have no children, and no wife (I'm only 25!) but I do have two cute nieces who in 16-18 years are bound to break hearts.

Thanks for the answers and interesting discussion,even if some of it was over my head. ;) I'll just have to do some reading on the subject.

Regards,

[john mark]

Chang Xiaojie,

Nin hao.


Originally posted by Tami Chang
Fellows,

I bow to your superior knowledge ;)

Leaving the language bit aside for a moment, my husband and I have two absolutely drop dead gorgeous Amer-Asian daughters ages 18 and 16. Boyfriends always comment, "Your dad looks mean," to which they reply, "Yeah, but it's my mom you got to watch out for...." :D

John Mark,

Do you find couples such as you and your wife as uncommon as we have? The opposite combination of Asian wife with whatever husband seems much more common. We find our family is a curiosity to others when we travel--especially in China. Once in a store in Shanghai I thought a man was going to fall off an escalator trying to look at us. Our kids say the only place we have ever traveled where they didn't feel kind of weird was Hawaii. Have you found the same to be true for your family?

Respectfully,
Tami

Very observant. In my experience, it is very rare. Including you, I only know of four couples meeting this criteria. I want to stay away from a discussion of the underlying reasons, as such a discussion can potentially generate more flames and explosions than koryu and education, koryu snobbery, the politics of discarding tradition and its effects on language, and General Y. Kesago’s impact on jukenjitsu and tamishigiri combined.

My girls are a lot younger than yours and I don’t have to face certain issues just yet. I’m considering this approach: With a big demonic grin and a Wakizashi tucked in my belt, I would ask all suitors if they knew how bulls became steers. What do you think?

Best,

[Tami]

John Mark,

Sounds like a great idea that ought to work well. Don't expect your girls to like it though. :)

Tami

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by Kit LeBlanc




Now, for an interesting twist. I have heard that the Chinese that the Japanese adopted was mainly Tang dynasty era (618-907C.E. ) Tang Chinese is supposedly closer to Cantonese, which is why there is "do" instead of "dao," but this does not always apply.
Kit LeBlanc

For your next appearance on Who Wants to be a Millionaire: Tang Chinese is indeed closer to cantonese than mandarin. Tang poetry only rhymes in cantonese and does not rhyme in mandarin. This according to an art historian at Princeton University, who reads a lot of Tang poetry in her research.

M

[Margaret Lo]

Originally posted by john mark
Hi Kit,

Now your testing the limits of my knowledge; but I think the answer is yes, at least in the US. The reason for this phenomena, I believe, can be traced to immigration patterns and to the post '49 attitudes of certain parties towards tradition. [No flames please.]

Best,

John
I am told by cantonese speakers that cantonese does indeed retain more classical usage than mandarin largely because it is a more ancient (hence superior :)) dialect. You'll have to ask my source during our restaurant roaming ventures to come.

But on your mention of post '49 - any flames should be directed towards the party (die evil communists!! there :D) I have been informed, by someone who would wish otherwise, that modern mainland Chinese speakers have little of the sophistication found in HK and Taiwan. Usage has deteriorated visibly and unforgiveably (did I say *** communist scum already? is that flaming?)

M

[Kit LeBlanc]

Margaret,

RE: Tang poetry.

Yep, that's what I was taught! Fascinating subject indeed.

I think that my wife would argue Cantonese is also superior....

RE: the Chi-Coms...

Their attempted wholesale destruction of a myriad of cultural traditions and the vessels(human and inanimate) that bear them staggers the mind. I was particularly angered to read of old martial arts masters in Cultural Revolution China being beaten to death by gangs of Red Guards solely because they were martial arts masters.

Kit

[Tami]

Well, it is interesting and fun to see the direction this thread has taken. :D

Just to add a little spice to the topic, my husband is currently working based out of Hong Kong. He is quite irritated when people just assume he speaks Cantonese since he is Chinese and in Hong Kong. I got the impression that he is sometimes treated a little rudely when he answers back with Mandarin or English.

It is refreshing to see that English isn't the only language with linguistical snobs.

Tami

[Kit LeBlanc]

Tami,

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I personally think Mandarin is much nicer sounding than Cantonese. Easier for a da bizi to speak as well.

Kit LeBlanc

[john mark]

Originally posted by Margaret Lo
I am told by cantonese speakers that cantonese does indeed retain more classical usage than mandarin largely because it is a more ancient (hence superior :)) dialect. You'll have to ask my source during our restaurant roaming ventures to come.

Who am I to gainsay the superiority of Cantonese. After all, I'm Cantonese!!


Originally posted by Margaret Lo
I have been informed, by someone who would wish otherwise, that modern mainland Chinese speakers have little of the sophistication found in HK and Taiwan. Usage has deteriorated visibly and unforgiveably …

M, Gotta take issue with you on Hong Kongese. The modern form is riddled with Chinglish, profanity, etc.

Kit, A friend who teaches at HKUS&T claims to have seen MO in a dictonary. Unfortunantly, she does not own a copy. For those who do not know the character it is <A HREF="http://www.zhongwen.com/d/166/x179.htm">you(3)</A> without the two heng strokes in the moon part of the character.

Tami, Honkies harbour tremendous prejudice against jook sings, bananas and ABCs. If you can't speak Chinese (in their narrow view this means Hong Kongese), they automatically think you're an idiot or worse.

As much as I rag on Hong Kong, I really enjoyed living there. Hong Kong is a great place. If you want a list of recommended eating and drinking spots, let me know.

Best,