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Joss
18th March 2001, 18:29
Hi,

I would like to know if, as people become more experienced, they have a tendancy to get rid of their iaito and train (for kata) with a live blade. Also, do you then tend to have one sword for both kata and tameshigiri? Finally, as kata (during competitions) benefits from the tachikaze, and as tachikaze kinda requires bo-hi on the sword, do you then tend to favor bo-hi live blades?

Thanks,

JD

socho
18th March 2001, 19:36
Hi Joss,
me again. Since this may partially be in reply to a rant (by me) on another list, I am including the rant in question. The original topic was what is the best type of sword for cutting. I go t alittle off topic.

Tameshigiri is not and should not be a separate 'art'. It is one aspect of learning the sword. Unfortunately, it is the 'cool' aspect and quite seductive. Demonstration cutting is not training, it can sometimes cross the line from the 'humble spirit' that iai should be cultivating. You will not reach mushin if you can't get around your ego. Ideally, you should use one sword for both iai and tameshigiri. If you do not, you are cheating yourself, and not learning the sword. Call it your spirit sword or just call it repetitive practice, but the more time you spend with one blade, the better you will be with that blade.

OK, let's hear it :)

OldRonin
18th March 2001, 23:09
I trained my first ten years with bokuto and iaito. Then I began to move into adding tamishigiri to my training. I began that with a cheap shinken, which I only used for cutting. I did all my iaido with an iaito, and my kenjutsu with a bokuto. After a couple of more years, I acquired a working blade from Bugei, which I now use for all my training, kata and cutting. I use one or two of my bokuto (I have seven different ones) for sentimental reasons when I am just doing a little suburi side practice. When I do my moving meditation type training, I always use the live blade.

In response to you question about bo-hi, I prefer them, and would like to have a shinken with a bo-hi, but that will have to wait until I get a real good bonus from work so I can afford a high quality shinken. A bo-hi is really not necessary, to me, it is just handsome and makes the blade a bit more satisfying to swing.

Just my own peculiar ways and thoughts on the matter.

HitokiriBattousai
18th March 2001, 23:41
I posted a reply that should answer your question somewhat over at the SFI JSA board, Mr. Delage. Good luck in your future training!

Joss
19th March 2001, 15:58
Originally posted by socho
Since this may partially be in reply to a rant (by me) on another list, I am including the rant in question. The original topic was what is the best type of sword for cutting..

I am sorry, but no, it wasn't related to your rant. I am just trying to assess whether the type of live blade one uses changes with experience.

More specifically, I would think that an intermediate student would favor for tameshigiri a typical martial art grade blade, which *typically* would not be properly balanced for kata (too tip heavy.) To the contrary, a more experienced student might want tomething better balanced (like an authentic Nihonto), since he might want to use a unique sword for both tameshigiri and kata.

(BTW, what are "Renshu-to"?)

JD

Den
19th March 2001, 17:26
G. Hauenstein Sensei wrote an article for the Shinkendo newsletter a few years back entitled "Safety in Training: Iaito Blades and Sword Training." It's available online at http://www.shinkendo.com/news.html.

The gist of the article, and I have heard similar from Obata Soke, is that practitioners often develop a false sense of safety with an iaito. While it doesn't hold an edge, it is sharp, especially at the point. While iaito don't slice, they do cut.

In class, our students are not encouraged to work with a shinken until they've had a year or more of sword study. In the meantime they work stricktly with bokuto.

Personally I started out with an iaito because I feared accidentally slicing something important. I haven't touched the blade yet during practice at home. I do think because of the iaito practice, I'll feel more secure when I do move to a shinken.

-Anthony

Mance Thompson
19th March 2001, 17:52
I realize that this post wasn't written for me as I am nowhere close to being an experienced swordsman. However, my experience might give you an interesting perspective. I studied Toyama ryu in Japan for about a year. During my first visit to the dojo, I was given a live blade and allowed to cut. For kata practice, I used a mogito because I didn't own a shinken and could hear the sound of the sword cutting to diagnose whether the blade angle(or plane) was correct. Those who owned shinken used them solely. We cut almost every night after our longer kata practice(3x a week), and after 3 months training, I was able to place third in their national (albeit relatively small) competition for cutting in the yudansha and below category. My sensei(whose sword I always borrowed for competition and sometimes for practice) and most of the dojo members, used slightly larger heavier modern blades that cut well. Perhaps due to this, I soon grew to prefer to use a live blade or suburito instead of the lighter nonbladed practice sword. Later, I was able to handle several different blades and found that though they varied in weight and balance, they were always heavier than most mogito I had seen. There is definitely a saftey concern with choosing what type of blade to practice with, but I was suprised to find how long many in the States waited to begin handling and training with live blades. I imagine it depends on what art you study and your short and long term goals are, but one argument would be to try to make your training as realistic as possible. In that case, either a suburito or a live blade would be the way to go once you felt comfortable using them. Just my thoughts.

Earl Hartman
19th March 2001, 20:54
When I practice what little iai I know, I use a shinken. Keeps your mind on what you're doing, that's for sure. Any showing off and you're minus a few fingers. Clears the mind wonderfully and reminds you of what it is you are actually doing.

ghp
19th March 2001, 20:58
David,

Good response; I agree with you. I also owe you an e-mail response -- which I hope to get out this week.

Mance,

Also another good response. At the Tsurumi dojo we all used shinken from day one -- if we had one. Those who didn't, used mogito [iaito] until such time that they could buy a shinken. Kumitachi was always done with mogito unless it was for a special event, when the senior teachers would use shinken.

Which "faction" of Toyama Ryu did you study, and where was the dojo? Morinaga-ha, Nakamura-ha, or Yamaguchi-ha? If you were Zen Nippon Toyama Ryu Iaido Renmei, that is considered "Nakamura-ha." Both Dave (Socho) and I studied at the Tsurumi, Yokohama dojo; I was also able to visit the Tenmangu dojo (Machida) a couple of times back in 1990.

Regards,
Guy

hyaku
19th March 2001, 23:57
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joss
[B]Hi,

I would like to know if, as people become more experienced, they have a tendancy to get rid of their iaito and train (for kata) with a live blade. Also, do you then tend to have one sword for both kata and tameshigiri? Finally, as kata (during competitions) benefits from the tachikaze, and as tachikaze kinda requires bo-hi on the sword, do you then tend to favor bo-hi live blades?

Thanks,

JD

Before Iaito became popular an unsharpened blade was used by some people until they became proficient. The study and practice of the Japanese sword is to “use one”.

One should be proficient enough to use almost any blade.

What stops many people is the price. It also used to be a question of availability which no longer seems to be a problem.

Hyakutake Colin

Devon Smith
20th March 2001, 00:43
My experience is a little bit backwards, I guess...

As a kid who was interested in the Japanese sword arts, I decided I wanted to buy a sword. Mom said "call the pawn shops".

So I did, and one fella replied "yep, got one. $75.00...".

After some bargaining, I walked out with what turned out to be a Shinto blade forged right around the time of the Meiji restoration! After finding iai because of Shogo Kuniba years later, I put my woodworking skills to the test and built a proper saya for iaido and used the sword quite often (getting cut from time to time, too).

As I grew a bit more towards 6' in height, it was pointed out to me that this katana of mine might be a bit short and contributing to some bad habits. I began to understand this and kept looking for a substitute, but I couldn't bring myself to purchase an iaito without having a chance to hold it and "try" it, at the least.

Travel to Hiroshima came for the first time a few years ago because of automotive work with Mazda, and I stumbled across a small shop selling kitchen knives and gardening tools while walking in the Hondori section of town. My eyes really got wide when I saw the owner, a frail old fellow, sharpening someone's bonsai shears in what looked to me to be the same manner used to polish/sharpen a sword...he knelt over a large stone and moved the blade back and forth over the stone while splashing water over it frequently. I got really interested and took a look around inside.

Just as I began to look around again, I spotted a rack all the way to the rear of the shop, holding what looked to be ten or twelve katanas, which upon closer inspection turned out to be high-quality iaitos. In the end I chose one, and after receiving permission to examine it and heft it, I decided to take it home. I think the owner was pleased to see a Westerner taking things seriously this time...he was stand-offish at first, but really warmed up to me after I tried to show sincere interest. He even shaved a section of my leg with a cooking knife to show off his sharpening skill (bought that one too!).

So, I've graduated from a sharp sword that's a bit short for me, to a dull one that is much more appropriate in length. And now the "hi" are there to talk to me, as that feature was missing from my old katana.

And everyone was right, I had some bad habits to unlearn!

Devon

Nathan Scott
20th March 2001, 00:45
Hello,

Personally, I also learned on bokuto and was transitioned directly to shinken. But I currently use bokuto, iaito (mogito), suburito, tetsuto, shinken, and about anything else I can swing as part of my training routine.

In other words, I don't think you necessarily out grow the training tools. The Iaito gets used by newer students to learn batto/noto and etiquette, and also comes in useful for demonstrations.

As far as what you *should* do or don't do, I think your instructor should be the model and offer guidance. I definitely would not go shopping for a shinken without getting permission from your instructor first.

Some styles may not even use Iaito.

I find all the tools useful when used correctly, but I still train primarily with bokuto - and a round one at that!

Regards,

Joss
20th March 2001, 02:55
Hey all,

I've seen that thread going completely away of what I was trying to ask, so obviously I didn't phrase my question well. I am not looking for guidance on what to do; rather, my question is:

As one starts getting proficient enough to do tameshigiri (under the right supervision), one will buy their first sword. Typically, that will be a martial art grade shinken: in a majority of cases (?) a Paul Chen.

Now, the one comment that I constantly hear about swords made for tameshigiri is that they're beefier and more tip heavy than true nihonto, antique or shinsakuto. (Of course US made custom pieces can also be much less tip heavy.) Typically, this tip heaviness helps for tameshigiri (all things being equal: you need the proper form) - those swords are somewhat more specialized than traditional nihonto.

On the other hand, tip heaviness and beefiness make them less well balanced for kata. This is no big deal for intermediate students, as they typically don't practice kata with live blades. However, advanced students often do train for kata with live blade.

My question is: do those students who have reach the stage where they often tend to train for kata with live blade change their sword for a more well balanced one - say a good quality gunto, or another nihonto, or a US custom made piece. Or do they not?


Thanks,

JD

Mance Thompson
20th March 2001, 15:12
Hi Joss and all,

Again, from the experience of those at my dojo. They all used the beefier swords for cutting and kata. Having done the same, I would say it is easier to transition to perhaps a more appropriately sized and weighted sword from having that experience. On the other hand, afterwards the mogito and nice bokuto I bought while there felt a little light. I trained in Ninomiya with Ueki sensei and Guy we crossed paths a few times, first being that Nov. Nihon Battodo Renmei(or was it Zen Nihon-well you know the one) competition in 1998.

ghp
20th March 2001, 22:59
Mance,


Guy we crossed paths a few times, first being that Nov. Nihon Battodo Renmei

Maybe you are confusing me with Dave Drawdy? He was at the taikai in Kashima where our dojo got their clocks cleaned.

I haven't been to Japan since late 1994.

I think Ueki sensei is part of the "Nakamura-ha" Toyama Ryu; although that term is probably not used. Not saying he's a student or current follower of Nakamura sensei -- it's just that is the version of TR that was taught by Nakamura sensei. Morinaga sensei and Yamaguchi sensei each teach in their own way ... and have developed their own following; therefore, I identify their groups as Morinaga-ha and Yamaguchi-ha. In the early 70s those three leaders got together to establish a consolidated federation, but they couldn't come to terms. Each wanted to be the leader, and each departed and went his own way.

According to my research, which may not be 100% accurate, Nakamura sensei founded the All Japan Toyama Ryu Iaido Federation, All Japan Battodo Federation, and the International Battodo Federation. I think Ueki sensei is currently the kaicho of the All Japan Battodo Federation. Nakamura sensei is still the kaicho of the AJTRIF and the IBF.

If you have any corrections or additions to my research, I would certainly appreciate your input.

Regards,
Guy

Mance Thompson
21st March 2001, 03:24
Whoops,

Sorry Guy, that was a gentleman named Bob Ramp(got his name in hiragana so I hope I didn't just butcher it)? from Florida. He and The Elder Statesman of Sword were at the taikai(Zen Nippon Battodo Renmei taikai on Nov. 6th, 1998). I was at Kashima the next year when I lifted the wara off the post trying to do a gyaku kesa and threw the half cut mat over a bunch of heads and almost hit someone 15 feet away. Talk about embarrassing. I heard a lot about the splits and all that but don't really recall it now. Sorry this is getting too personal, we can just move it to e-mail.

Richard Elias
21st March 2001, 09:37
JD,

I think the answer to your question really varies from school to school.

In our school we don't use iaito at all. Only bokken and shinken. You use a bokken in the begining until you learn the basics of handling, carrying and atiquette, then you start with shinken and learn the basic draws. Bokken is used for kata at first and then shinken. The same with partner practices. Of course we don't make contact (on purpose) with the body during partner practices using shinken. Tameshigiri is not really emphisized in our school. We do it once in a while, but not often.

pgsmith
21st March 2001, 18:23
Hi Joss,
I don't chime in on discussions much here, but I feel like I have to on this one. Your original question is presupposed on an erroneous assumption : that nihonto are balanced differently than modern production blades. This is not totally true. I have handled old blades that were light and very fast. I have also handled ones that were quite heavy and tip forward in their balance. It was (and still is) a very personal thing on where the balance is based on what the sword is for and personal preference. I believe the confusion enters when people on the boards say ' it's too tip heavy for kata'. What actually happens is that the more forward balanced a blade is, the easier and more powerful the cutting stroke, but the less maneuverable it is. If you don't have strong wrists (from extended time training :) ) then you run the risk of repetitive stress syndrome from extensive training with a heavy, forward balanced sword. An experienced practitioner should have no problem with this. In fact, an experienced swordsman will be able to pick up any sword, short or long, heavy or light, and not have any trouble using it even though it may not be what they prefer.

Hope I didn't muddy the water too much!