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ImRe
20th March 2001, 10:50
Hi!

As far as I know, in the ancient times, people usually used their sword from horseback. I think, I know something about horsemanship, and using the sword, but these knowledge don't seem to mix.

Anybody knows something about using the sword from horseback?
(Ryu? Personal experiences? Anything?)

hyaku
20th March 2001, 23:32
Yes, my ryu has some bajjo forms (bajo dachi). Although I have not had the opportunity to try them out on on a horse. Like yabu-same one can try them out on a mockup.

General points to watch are drawing an cutting without injuring the horse, particularly the head. There are tried and tested methods. I use a sideways figure of eight configuration.

Hyakutake Colin

gmellis
21st March 2001, 00:56
hyaku
Yes, my ryu has some bajjo forms (bajo dachi). Although I have not had the opportunity to try them out on on a horse. Like yabu-same one can try them out on a mockup.

General points to watch are drawing an cutting without injuring the horse, particularly the head. There are tried and tested methods. I use a sideways figure of eight configuration.

Hyakutake Colin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[Bulging eyes and slobbering mouth] What school did you say you train at? Not Takeda Ryu in Kyushu is it? Is it mostly a yabusame/kyubajutsu school? Do you like Oreo cookies?

GaryH
21st March 2001, 03:20
I did a report on Samurai and I read a few stories in Samurai Warfare by Stephen Turnbull, a GREAT book. Anyways, the message I got from the book was that samurai were more likely to use an extra long sword while battling from horseback. (Sorry, I'm horrible with Japanese names but the sword was long enough that it would bend easily while cutting and probably wasn't useful for a very long time during battle.)

I don't know if the message I got from the book was correct, just figured I would give my thoughts.

--Gary Hill

ImRe
21st March 2001, 11:01
Hi Hyaku,

thanks for your response.


Originally posted by hyaku
Yes, my ryu has some bajjo forms (bajo dachi).

I went to your home page, and saw that you are lucky enough to be able to practice several different ryu. Now I wonder which ryu do you refer to. I have the faint feeling that it is Kage ryu, but I'm not really sure ...

If it is Kage ryu, I'm really curious how those looong blades can be used from horseback without injuring the horse.


Although I have not had the opportunity to try them out on on a horse. Like yabu-same one can try them out on a mockup.

A lame question: What is this yabu-same?


General points to watch are drawing an cutting without injuring the horse, particularly the head. There are tried and tested methods. I use a sideways figure of eight configuration.

When I tried to connect my knowledge of swordsmanship with my knowledge of horsemanship, I found a few problems/questions. Of course I don't have any practical knowledge, so some of them can be possibly be irrelevant. I'm looking forward to read your opinions about them.

So here they are:

1) Horses are sensitive to the placement of the rider's center of mass. That is, if I work from hara as I was taught, it will change the movement of the horse. How does one deal with this? A different way of cutting is used, or one is supposed to know one's horse enough to calculate that.

2) One should not only defend oneself, but also one's horse. How can somebody stop a footman with his not so long sword to cut down his horse's legs for example?

3) I wonder whether the swords are used one- or two-handed. If they are used with two hand, I have a bunch of other questions regarding the range of the possible movements, the controlling of the horse, and possibly about the traditional Japanese harnesses. If they are used one handed, I think I'll have to spend some more time in the gym :-)

Thanks in advance.

Tucker Peterson
21st March 2001, 14:52
ImRe-
I don't know much about sword arts, but the concerns you mentioned I have seen in various historical discussions/books/
1. I think that the horse as well as the rider requires training so they can work as a team.
2. The question of someone attacking the horse: that's the weakness of mounted troops, and how infantry can win against them (a tight mass of spears is even better though). Cavalry historically is about movement and perhaps the solution lies in hit and run tactics? I think this is true in the mounted duels between samurai, judging from books and movies I've seen.
3. I do believe they are used one-handed, but really I think the sword is a back-up weapon when mounted. Spears and Bows are much more useful.

In my understanding, a tachi, carried edge down, was the primary cav sword. After the Tokugawa Shogunate began, though, the Katana (a shorter weapon) was introduced since the tachi was awkward to use dismounted (as most fights were in the street rather than on the battlefield).
Hope this is useful...
Regards,

Ruediger
21st March 2001, 16:49
Maybe this is of interest for you

http://www.mugendobudogu.com/html/sword_customs.htm

you have to scroll down to the bottom


...oh, and....Yabusame...Shooting arrows from horseback



regards

ghp
21st March 2001, 20:23
The 1939 version of the Toyama Academy's Kenjutsu Kyohan Shokai has a section explaining how to build a tameshigiri course for cavalry, and includes diagrams showing placement of targets. I have seen a photograph of a mounted officer on the tameshigiri course, but I forgot where it was.

And for what it's worth, my grandfather was in the US Cavalry in 1919 -- he used to tell me stories of mounted sword training: cutting right; cutting left (make sure you clear your mount's head); thrusting; etc. (okay, so he wasn't a samurai....)

Regards,
Guy

Tucker Peterson
21st March 2001, 20:31
Hmm. I guess I was wrong. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, after 25 years. :)

Sorry for leading anyone into error.

Penitently,

hyaku
22nd March 2001, 10:11
I went to your home page, and saw that you are lucky enough to be able to practice several different ryu. Now I wonder which ryu do you refer to. I have the faint feeling that it is Kage ryu, but I'm not really sure ...

If it is Kage ryu, I'm really curious how those looong blades can be used from horseback without injuring the horse.
...............

Kageryu and Hyoho Niten Ichiryu. The difficulty is mostly actually drawing with horses head being an obstacle. A lot of stabbing movements. There seems to be so much emphisis on the Japanese sword as a cutting weapon nowadays.

1) Horses are sensitive to the placement of the rider's center of mass. That is, if I work from hara as I was taught, it will change the movement of the horse. How does one deal with this? A different way of cutting is used, or one is supposed to know one's horse enough to calculate that.
..............
I can't really answer as Im not much of a horseman. I see your point and would have to agree with your “know your mount”.

2) One should not only defend oneself, but also one's horse. How can somebody stop a footman with his not so long sword to cut down his horse's legs for example?
...........
Move quickly?

3) I wonder whether the swords are used one- or two-handed. If they are used with two hand.
......................
One to draw. After that two. I wear a shorter sword for one handed close work.

Regards Hyakutake Colin

Jeff Bristol
23rd March 2001, 00:47
I don't want to sound fensive Hyaku, I'm just curious. How do you practice the kata and movements for mounted fighting without being mounted? Do you use a mock-up horse?

Jeff Bristol

ImRe
30th March 2001, 08:52
Thanks for the answers so far.

Another question come into my mind on the other day (spent on horseback).
I wonder whether the momentum of the horse in a gallop can be used (or is used) in swordfighting techniques.

Joseph Svinth
30th March 2001, 09:27
George Patton in 1913 suggested that you lay along side the horse, with the sword thrust alongside the horse's head, as this put the weight of the animal behind the thrust and protected you from arrows, bullets, etc. http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/zablocki_abstract.htm notes that fencing duels on horseback resulted in many injuries, but few fatalities, which suggests why most combat cavalry carried lances or pistols.

For really good stuff about proper employment of pointy things from horseback, try studying the Comanche, a people who gave up firearms for lances, and held off the Mexicans, Texans, and US Army until the 1870s; in particular, watch how their lessons influenced the US and Confederate cavalry of the Civil War and Indian War eras.

Be that as it may, to find books on cavalry, try links such as http://www2.prestel.co.uk/simonides/links/topics/individual/cavalry.html . Meanwhile, websites describing yabusame include http://www.ogasawara-ryu.gr.jp/english.html

wanakateros
30th March 2001, 10:46
Mr. Svinth: Most classical cavalrymen would tend to agree with you; the lance seemed to be the weapon of choice as opposed to the slashing sword, as I am very sure you well know.

I have no experience with horses, but I did chase down a pair of motorcycle-riding purse snatchers once on my own motorcycle. They operated in the usual fashion: a driver and a snatcher riding in the back seat. After a somewhat theatrical chase, I finally caught up with them, then wondered: now what? I was on their left; every time I let go of the gas on my own bike, they pulled far ahead. I was finally ineffectively whacking the passenger with my briefcase when he threw away the purse and I stopped chasing them. Anyway, the whole situation made me see why classical mounted warriors invariably used lances.

Best,