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tawassel
21st March 2001, 05:02
For anyone who as any practical knowledge of Shoji Nishio Sensei's Aikitoho and his use of ken and jo in Aikido training I have a couple of questions.

1) From a Koryu standpoint how does Aikitoho rate? That is what do you feel are its strong points and weak points?

2) How much does Nishio Sensei's jo resemble Shinto Muso-ryu jo and how much do you feel has been changed or adapted to Aikido principles?

3) Do you feel that Aikitoho can stand on its own as a sword art or (as has been suggested with Saito Sensei's Aikiken and Aikijo) is it best used as a tool to understand Aikido?

I would appreciate any thoughts you have on these questions. I am currently studying Nishio Aikido and Aikitoho but I have no experience in older sword arts and I am wondering what the Koyru community thinks.

Thank you in advance.

Meik Skoss
21st March 2001, 19:00
T. Wassel wrote: "For anyone who has any knowledge of Shoji Nishio Sensei's aiki toho and his use of ken and jo in aikido training I have a couple of questions.

1) From a koryu standpoint how does aiki toho rate? That is what do you feel are its strong points and weak points?

2) How much does Nishio Sensei's jo resemble Shinto Muso-ryu jo[jutsu] and how much do you feel has been changed or adapted to aikido principles?

3) Do you feel that aiki toho can stand on its own as a sword art or (as has been suggested with Saito's aiki jo and aiki ken) is it best used as a tool to understand aikido?

I would appreciate any thoughts you have on these questions. I am currently studying Nishio aikido and aiki toho but I have no experience in older sword arts and I am wondering what the koyru community thinks."

I trained for several years with Nishio at the Shinagawa Taiikukan, back in the late '70s and early '80s and found that his weapons work was rather interesting (this was at the same time that I was studying Shinto Muso-ryu, Tendo-ryu, and Toda-ha Buko-ryu), before he had made up a "system" for stick and sword. And I've trained with him on occasion since then. Anyway, my memory of the technique and system is not current, but from what I've seen of it, it's some of the best stuff going within aikido. The other people who are pretty good with weapons in Japan are Hikitsuchi Michio and Tada Hiroshi. Hikitsuchi's the only man to receive a menkyo kaiden (an e-maki, or illustrated scroll) in bojutsu) and is pretty good. The late Shirata Rinjiro also had an interesting sword technique, but I can't really say the same for Saito Morihiro. He is a very talented exponent of taijutsu, but Saito's weapons training is, uh... "flawed" (shall we leave it at that?) if it is viewed from a classical point of view.

To answer the question about Nishio's aiki jo waza, "no, it doesn't bear any resemblance to, and has very little in common with, Shinto Muso-ryu." Nishio studied SMR for a brief period, but he told me that he found it somewhat unsatisfying and not compatible with his aiki training, or the work he was doing in judo, karatedo, or iaido. Thus, I think it's pretty accurate to say that his jo waza are all derived from *his* take on aikido. (A most excellent one it is, too.)

As far as Nishio's aiki toho is concerned, comparing it to any of the kenjutsu ryugi is really a matter of apples 'n oranges. Most classical swordsmanship is practised as a means of cultural preservation and as austere personal training (shugyo), not as a means of fighting. Same with aiki toho. Could it be used "for real" if necessary? More than likely so, but that'd really depend on the individual, wouldn't it?

As to whether or not Nishio's sword/stick technique can ''stand alone," well, what does *he* say about that? Is he teaching it as a means of fighting or as a method of training within the context of aikido? It doesn't matter if I (or other koryu types) think it's good, bad, indifferent, or the best thing since sliced mochi -- he's the teacher, it's up to him to make thr determination. (But, since you asked, I believe that anything he does is pretty reliable stuff. It's just up to the individual student to "get" it.)

I hate to say it, but the majority of the people who train in Ueshiba-style aikido have absolutely NO clue re: what they are doing in terms of martial arts or self-defense. It is the result of a number of factors, dating from the '70s and is probably unavoidable when one considers all the social changes since WWII and aikido's "Golden Age."

Hope this (for what it's worth) helps.

BC
21st March 2001, 19:17
Originally posted by Meik Skoss
I hate to say it, but the majority of the people who train in Ueshiba-style aikido have absolutely NO clue re: what they are doing in terms of martial arts or self-defense. It is the result of a number of factors, dating from the '70s and is probably unavoidable when one considers all the social changes since WWII and aikido's "Golden Age."

Hope this (for what it's worth) helps. [/B]

Mr. Skoss:

Would you be willing to elaborate a little further on the above quote, or direct me to any articles you may have previously written on the subject?

Regards,

tawassel
22nd March 2001, 00:30
Mr. Skoss,
Thank you for you reply and opinion. To tell you the truth I was hopping that you would reply as I read recently that you had trained with Nishio Sensei and I was eager to hear what you had to same in light of your experience in the sword arts as well as Aikido. If I might bother you with a couple more questions I wouldbe very grateful.
If Nishio Sensei only studied SMR for a short time where did his skill with the jo come from? Did he study long enough to learn the basic principles of the jo and then used his sword training to fill in the rest? Or did he study the jo at some other time? Also you said in your reply that "I hate to say it, but the majority of people who train in Ueshiba-style aikido have absolutely NO clue re: what they are doing in terms of martial arts or self defense." Could you elaborate on what you mean here? Also what do you consider "Ueshiba-style aikido"? Do you mean Iwam-ryu as opposed to Yonshinkan or are you using the term in a broader context?

I am planning on asking him personally about some of these things but I do not think that I will see him until May. Thanks for helping to satsify my curiosity.

Thanks again.

Meik Skoss
22nd March 2001, 01:03
Nishio Sensei studied with several people, including my first Shinto Muso-ryu teacher, Shimizu Takaji, Matsuo Kempu (from whom I believe he learned most of his iai), and others. He told me that he didn't do SMR for a very significant period because it just didn't "suit" him and all the other things he was doing. He most emphatically did *not* say that he didn't "like" the system, just that, for him, it just wasn't what he wanted. That's what I recall, at any rate (it was, after all, more'n twenty years ago).

As to where his skill with the stick comes from, I reckon it's the the result of his own training and research. I've never seen anybody else do waza that even remotely resemble his stuff. I suppose that the nice thing about it all is that he ties it all together: waza that can be done with a variety of twists/flavors: aiki, ju, ku, ken, and jo. I believe that's a clear sign of his understanding/ability.

Nishio is, quite simply, amazing; one evidence of that is one of his senior students, Takemori-san, and what he can does with unarmed and weapons techniques. When I trained with Takemori "back when," he was another fresh-faced college kid/young salaryman. The last time I saw him, in '96 or so, he gave a terrific demonstration of tameshigiri that put many Toyama-ryu and jukendo folks to shame (this was at a special embu at the home dojo of a big high mucky-muck jukendo/TR teacher). Gents, if that's the kind of product Nishio puts out, that's where all you aiki bunnies need to be training.

By Ueshiba-style, I mean teachers and exponents who are members of the Aikikai. It doesn't really matter if the technical rationale is "Iwama-style" or "Nishio-style," as long as these people affiliate with the Aikikai, and their menjo are signed by Ueshiba, they're Ueshiba-style. I'm rather "surprised" (I mean that in the Japanese sense) that people would actually use the terms N-style, I-style or whatever. That's really an inappropriate thing to say.

As far as my assertions about Ueshiba-style aikido as a rather unrealistic training method at this time, I'd rather not go into that here on E-Budo. If you're curious about my point of view, look at the Koryu Online website (and read between the lines) or contact me privately.

WillG
22nd March 2001, 06:15
" I hate to say it, but the majority of the people who train in Ueshiba-style aikido have
absolutely NO clue re: what they are doing in terms of martial arts or self-defense."

Mr. Skoss,

You may not wish to 'go into it' here on e-Budo, but that amounts to painting with a broad brush. No doubt my little aiki-bunny-butt isn't as informed as your own Usagi Yojimbo's, but my understanding is that Ueshiba coined the term "aikido" and made it stick. Suggesting that it doesn't matter whether you're in "N" sensei's line, "Y" shihan's system, or taking classes at Olga's School makes your brush even larger.

A jab and a retreat.

Now I'll go and search for the article you referenced just to get your personal, albeit purportedly eminent opinion on "Ueshiba-style" aikido.

will graves

WillG
23rd March 2001, 06:04
By the light of day that last was a little testy and perhaps out of balance.

Chalk it up to teaching a class with hard stuff and soft too, and not seeing anyone "get the drift" of what you were aiming for.
I mean, we were *supposed* to be shooting for the essence of my interpretation of Sensei's teaching of her understanding of her teacher's transmission of his version of what O Sensei *really* wanted everyone to know...

Frustrating night, and your assertions about Ueshiba-style, Mr. Skoss, apparently were truer at the moment than I wanted to hear. My sincere apologies.

But how do you get that good stuff without injuring some hapless training partner?

And off topic, too. Gee whiz.

Will Graves