PDA

View Full Version : Ukemi in Aikido



Kurgan
23rd March 2001, 05:39
Hello there,

I'm a Budo Taijutsu practitioner with some past experience in Aikido - I'd like to ask a question regarding Aikido ukemi

Are the types of ukemi in Aikido suited for use outside of the dojo ?

The back rolls are awkward with the tucking of one leg behind the other - and slapping the ground - doens't that transmit shock through your body when you can rather dissipate it by just continuing the roll ? Slapping the arm on the ground does have a use sometimes but it looks like Aikido practitioners do it all the time.

I could have the wrong idea of Aikido ukemi and I would like to hear an informed view on this

Regards

James806
23rd March 2001, 06:27
I practice in a modified Tomiki dojo (Fugakukai) and we slap on every breakfall in order to engrain it into our practice. There are times when you will not be able to "continue your roll". If you do not have a way of dissipating the shock, it could be very painful or knock the wind out of you. For example: Gedan ate, #4 in the Tomiki system, can lift uke off his feet and make an easy backward roll impossible. In which case you end up falling straight on your back. So you need to make your slaps automatic rather than trying to "decide" when or when not to slap. Also, we do not tuck one leg under our body as we fall because if you fall incorrectly you could injure a knee or break your ankle.

As to your question about using ukemi outside of the dojo... That depends on how good your ukemi is. I personally would not want to try a forward roll or kotegaeishi on concrete unless it was absolutely necessary. Maybe when I get better it will not matter what kind of surface I take ukemi on.

I hope this answers your question.
Does anyone have other thoughts?

James Day

Kurgan
23rd March 2001, 07:08
Originally posted by James806
I practice in a modified Tomiki dojo (Fugakukai) and we slap on every breakfall in order to engrain it into our practice. There are times when you will not be able to "continue your roll". If you do not have a way of dissipating the shock, it could be very painful or knock the wind out of you.

I did Aikikai Aikido. With the rolls in Ninjutsu I do a body drop when I can't roll - otherwise I complete the roll by rolling onto my feet again - because for me the slap transmits a shock into the spine.



Originally posted by James806
For example: Gedan ate, #4 in the Tomiki system, can lift uke off his feet and make an easy backward roll impossible.

With some techniques I also find it close to impossible to do a breakfall - but there is a side breakfall in Ninjutsu that can be used as well. I remember the tremendous force of the Aikido throws - I suppose thats a good ukemi teacher :)


Originally posted by James806
Also, we do not tuck one leg under our body as we fall because if you fall incorrectly you could injure a knee or break your ankle.

In Aikikai Aikido the backward roll was definitely done by tucking one leg in behind the other. This does not make sense to me at all :confused: maybe this was just done this way in that dojo


Originally posted by James806
As to your question about using ukemi outside of the dojo... That depends on how good your ukemi is. I personally would not want to try a forward roll or kotegaeishi on concrete unless it was absolutely necessary. Maybe when I get better it will not matter what kind of surface I take ukemi on.

I feel that if you want to use your ukemi in a self defense situation you have to practice to do it safely on all surfaces. I have done rolls on everything from grass to concrete - and yes - the concrete is very hard in the beginning - but gradually you become so much better in ukemi. After all - ukemi is there for injury prevention so the better you do it the less injuries you will have

Thanks for your information - look forward to hearing more from Aikido-ppl

:)

Blues
23rd March 2001, 08:26
I can't speak for myself, but I know for higher-level aikidoka in the style I practice a 'slap' doesn't have to be a slap, if you know what I mean. :D

For example I've seen my teacher doing impossibly high jump-ukemi on a hardwood floor without so much as a sound when he hit the ground. By extending his arm really, really far beyond his back he doesn't slap to dissapate (?) the impact but he 'cushions' the blow with his arm like a spring.

I'm sure Nathan Scott could tell you more about this style of ukemi.

MarkF
23rd March 2001, 11:19
Excuse me for not being aikidoka as this thread is directed at you, but I just wanted to echo Menno's post concerning the "silent ukemi." While ingraining the slap is good basics, I can't think of a single person who would actually "slap" who is a senior in Kodokan Judo. I don't usually, especially when engaged in spirited randori or shiai (I should have said when "I used to be engaged in," etc.).

Good ukemi is spread out so the entire body absorbs small pieces of the impact, but eventually, especially in shiai, it rarely happens. I do not recommend a hard slap when falling on concrete as well. For those who have the latest edition of Kodokan Judo, the paperback, look on page 63, uki goshi (floating hip throw). It is on concrete.

Mark

"We now return to our program all ready in progress."

Daniel Pokorny
23rd March 2001, 14:01
I practice on both hardwood floor and mats. I use the hardwood floor to help me find the "corners" in my rolls and to ensure I'm relaxed during breakfalls. I don't think "the slap" is very useful if it's just that, a slap. Otherwise, learning to distribute the energy of the fall though the entire side of the body seems to work much better for me while working on hard surfaces anyway......I do not practice on the hard floor all the time, just once in a while I think it's a really good reality check.

Regarding backrolls, I was taught a great back roll for hard surfaces from a really gifted sensei (Steve Fasen) here at Shindai Aikikai. I'll try and explain this, but you really have to see it to grasp what it looks like.

Uke starts by facing nage, who in turn, pushes uke backward (bad nage!). Uke turns a quarter way (left or right) while keeping their arms at their sides. Uke puts energy (I just hate using that mystical term KI) into both arms. For the sake of this explanation let's say uke turned a quarter way to their right. Uke starts down on the right side as if they were going to lay on their right arm and using the momentum, continues the roll up the right arm, across the shoulders and down the left arm, returning to their feet in the opposite hamni. It's very fast and safe for hard surfaces. I don't particularly like tucking one leg behind the other either. I think it's good when you're first learning because it sort of forces you to roll on your side and not straight back, which is a good thing, but once you understand that concept, I believe you have to find what works best for you......

This is of course, just my view of things......

Dan P. - Mongo

TIM BURTON
23rd March 2001, 18:32
To be spatially aware and develop an instinctive method of safe falling should be a main priority for anyone involved in the martial arts.
As we travel through life, the single most likely part of any martial art we teach, that will be used by our students is ukemi. People are more likely to slip over or fall down in their everyday lives than be attacked.

BC
23rd March 2001, 21:23
Ukemi outside the dojo? Definitely. Three weeks ago I slipped on some ice on the sidewalk. It happened so fast I didn't even have time to think about it. First I'm walking to the train, the next I'm lying on my backside in a position eerily similar to the one I'm in when I land on the mat. Not even a bruise or sore back afterwards. I can only imagine what I would've injured had I not practiced ukemi. Oh, and before you ask, yes, I slapped. One more good reason not to slap... is when you're carrying a metal coffee mug in your hand, you slip, and the handle hooks on your thumb while your flying through the air, only to swing around to the back of your hand as you make a sandwich with the mug, your hand, and the concrete as you slap. Now THAT was fun! :( :cry:

WillG
23rd March 2001, 21:30
I like that last, Mr. Burton. I agree completely. We put a lot of emphasis on safe falling at our school.

Small Ukemi story:
I'd always wanted to try a forward roll while holding one of my tots in my arms, but would always chicken out 'cause I didn't want to find out IF I could do it properly. One day, though, the decision was made for me. I had to run across my yard to rescue my then 4 year-old son who was standing on a yellow-jacket nest getting stung. He was on a small rise. I grabbed him and turned to run back to the house and I tripped. Running downhill.
'We' did a roll and never broke stride. Funny thing is that my focus was on getting my youngster out of trouble and truly didn't realize that I'd had an ukemi experience until several moments had gone by. I'd have squashed him flat without the training.

Donovan Waite put out a very interesting ukemi videotape. His style is unique and I've never seen anyone performing it at a dojo but it clearly works well for him. He doesn't seem to be a big "slapper", either.

Will Graves

MarkF
24th March 2001, 11:14
Hi, Will,
A nice story. The first thing learned is usually the first ingrained, and becomes a conditioned reflex. What is especially important about this reflex, is that when truly done as a natural response, one never knows what one will do until it is over. Be it ukemi, self-defense, or otherwise, you just don't know until it is over.

Human nature is to think things through, and is good while training, but in a more practical world, you just never know.

Mark

TIM BURTON
24th March 2001, 11:18
Originally posted by MarkF

For those who have the latest edition of Kodokan Judo, the paperback, look on page 63, uki goshi (floating hip throw). It is on concrete.

Mark

"We now return to our program all ready in progress."

Mark,
They look like Tatami to me.

astudent
26th March 2001, 08:03
at my dojo we are actually discouraged from "slapping" the mat. i've never really saw the point in it and it does seem hurt if not done right. but then when i think about doing it on the street, to me it looks like a possible broken wrist or hand. but sometimes when we train with someone from another dojo we pick up habits that maybe we shouldn't. when i see my sensei do ukemi he is very silent. at most you'll here the rustle of his hakama.

as far as ukemi outside the dojo, i can say that i have used it many times. a few times from bicycle accidents to a motorcycle accident. instead of sliding on the ground i was able to do a forward roll out of them preventing more serious injury. but i'll tell you doing a forward roll with a helmet on can sure be a challange.

szczepan
26th March 2001, 15:08
Originally posted by astudent
at my dojo we are actually discouraged from "slapping" the mat. i've never really saw the point in it and it does seem hurt if not done right. but then when i think about doing it on the street, to me it looks like a possible broken wrist or hand. but sometimes

Slapping the mat has few important functions.

Neutralise impact very powerful throws - koshinage etc when your body going directly down.

Kokyu practice - your slapping arm must be like arm doing kokyu ho - same external shape and internal feeling.

When a tatami is very crowded a noice of slapping arm will get attention of folks working around to avoid accidents

In some cases slapping arm working like a spring to let your body rise up immediately

You can use the very same way when you hit somebody as you slap tatami, and if external shape and internal feeling are correct it will be powerful atemi.

...etc...

outside of dojo , your instict will tell you to slap or not to slap...... :D may be for save you life one day you will have to slap, who knows?

astudent
27th March 2001, 05:49
Slapping the mat has few important functions.

Neutralise impact very powerful throws - koshinage etc when your body going directly down.

how does slapping the mat neutralise the impact of powerful throws? even with koshinage there is still a forward rolling motion with ukemi.

the only function that seems plausable is an attention getter when the tatami is crowded. but even then i've seen people fall on the out-stretched arms of those that "slapped" the mat. so i'm not so sure how safe that is.

szczepan
29th March 2001, 19:53
Originally posted by astudent
Slapping the mat has few important functions.

Neutralise impact very powerful throws - koshinage etc when your body going directly down.

how does slapping the mat neutralise the impact of powerful throws? even with koshinage there is still a forward rolling motion with ukemi.

the only function that seems plausable is an attention getter when the tatami is crowded. but even then i've seen people fall on the out-stretched arms of those that "slapped" the mat. so i'm not so sure how safe that is.


First of all, not very many aikidokas practice powerful throws. But those who believe it can develop kokyu power do it.

That said, from this kind of throws rolling is very difficult if not impossible and often very dangerous. It is coz of lock is done in mid-air or in the beginning of throw, or trajectory of uke's body is completely vertical(like in some judo throws, but fortunatly nage is not falling on uke's landing body :D ).
In one word, nage is not creating opening big enough to let uke roll.So you must do high flying breakfall.

Anyway there are very few ways of absorbing shock One of them is a shape of landing body, other- position of feet, other- slapping hand......here slapping hand working like spring board, and power is absorbed by multiple flexible joints and muscles lined up.


If slapping arm is far away from body - its absorbing role is not effectif and as you said dangerouse on crowded tatami.
So angle between landing body and arm must be rather small.With some practice you ajust this angle to be correct.

For koshinage thing, surly we practice different koshinage - from my koshinage there are no chance at all to do rolling ukemi, sorry..... :D

The Piranah
30th March 2001, 12:19
well i can offer this totally unhelpful fact - ukemi work great on beach sand, this discovered last summer being an idiot on the beach with some friends. I have yet to figure out how to do ukemi under water!

The Piranah
30th March 2001, 12:20
well i can offer this totally unhelpful fact - ukemi work great on beach sand, weather you slap the sand or not this was discovered last summer being an idiot on the beach with some friends. I have yet to figure out how to do ukemi under water!

Kiwi_Aikidoka
2nd April 2001, 04:00
Funnily enough it seems to me that Ukemi is primarily to allow the uke to receive and remain uninjured from receiving sometimes awkward and potentially lethal counter attacks from the Nage.
I think much of the Ukemi practice is to this end. You can roll from virtually any throw that ends with the nage releasing the Uke. If the Nage wishes to hold onto the nage such as in some types of Shihonage or Kotogaeshi for example then you have no choice but to break fall using a slap wether that be from the arm or in some instances from the feet. There are few people anxious to try to roll out from an "over-the-top" shoulder height Shihonage.
I feel that many techniques in a "street" situation wouldn't involve an uke that was either willing to receive a technique or even be able to preform Ukemi anyway. Thus most of what we practice is really a facilitation in aiding both the Uke and the Nage to learn valuable lessons simultaneously without having to slow a technique to a crawl or applying some sort of non-contact simulation of the technique. Both approaches have little application in true Aiki from my perspective. Additionally the Harmony/Love aspect of Aikido couldn't be practiced if we are intentionally out to dominate and destroy our practice partners. The street is a totally different environment to the dojo.
Obviously there are other benefits to Ukemi waza besides just being a practical way to avoid damage to ourselves but that is another discussion entirely.

Take care and God bless

Marten Coombe New Zealand Aikidoka

MarkF
2nd April 2001, 08:51
Welcome to E-budo, Kiwi Aikidoka!:)

[edited out of stupidity and blindness]

Back to ukemi. I understand what you are saying concerning ukemi in the practical sense, but this thread seems to have two purposes: ukemi for defense, and ukemi for defense against the ground, be it cement, wood floor, dirt/grass, sand, and, well, water, too I suppose.

It seems the one manner of which most people have the habit of doing, is falling at the strangest of times, with ukemi being a life-saver, or serious injury protector, so it does fall into the practical manner of ukemi, whether the attacker is tori, or you yourself are put in that situation because you forgot to tie your Nikes.

So I don't think a practice now and then on harder surfaces than tatami, is necessarily a "different subject."

Stuff happens.

Mark