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Jari Virta
24th March 2001, 09:25
Can someone tell me about Seisan and it's applications?

Victor
25th March 2001, 04:23
Hi Jari,

Perhaps I can give you an opening glimpse on the bunkai (my own interpretation - application potential) for Kata Seian.

Go to my web site www.funkydragon.com/bushi/index3.html

Once there, click on the icon for 'Meditations' and then the icon for 'Bunkai'. You will find a few of my opening thoughts on the application potential for kata Seisan there.

It is important to realize, it is very difficult to convey this in words. How to shift properly, where to strike exactly and at what angle of insertion, can only be poorly approximated by words.

My interpretation is most appropriate for the Isshinryu system which I teach, but much of it can readily be adopted to Shorin Seisan, Ueichi Seisan and Goju Seisan as well as Shotokan Hangetsu katas. All that is needed is the willingness to look for the similarities.

Let me know if this helps.

Jari Virta
30th March 2001, 15:18
Originally posted by Jim Kass
Can you please explain, what is your interpretation of all the kata you know and specifically the narrow differences as it relates to the culture diferences between Northern European vs American vs Oriental custom's?

:rolleyes:

Well, maybe I should not ask any questions until I have been granted some authoritative titles like Renshi or similar. Forgive me for being a novice. Won't happen again...

:(

Jari Virta
30th March 2001, 15:22
Originally posted by Victor
Once there, click on the icon for 'Meditations' and then the icon for 'Bunkai'. You will find a few of my opening thoughts on the application potential for kata Seisan there.
Let me know if this helps.

Thanks, this was exactly the kind of information I was looking for!

Joseph Svinth
31st March 2001, 07:42
If you think the fukyugata have only limited applications, then you need to go do them for a few more years.

Jari Virta
31st March 2001, 08:10
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
If you think the fukyugata have only limited applications, then you need to go do them for a few more years.

May be so.

Joseph Svinth
1st April 2001, 10:00
Probably I am prejudiced because geki sai, saifa, and the taikyoku-series kata called kake uke happen to be kata that I like a lot.

Jari Virta
1st April 2001, 10:22
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
Probably I am prejudiced because geki sai, saifa, and the taikyoku-series kata called kake uke happen to be kata that I like a lot.

A perfectly good reason. :D

Jari Virta
1st April 2001, 10:42
Originally posted by Jim Kass
then you will Know and not have to ask basic Questions!

Ok.

I see some cultural differences here. I have trained some years in Filipino arts and questions of all kinds are supported in those "circles". Maybe I haven't taken the Japanese culture of "don't ask - just do as I say" seriously enough now that I am getting involved in an Okinawan/Japanese art.

Joseph Svinth
1st April 2001, 11:48
A lot of the "lessons" contained within Okinawan kata are hard to explain unless you've done the thing a long time. For example, the need to relax the body part that seems to be doing all the work while simultaneously tensing a seemingly unrelated muscle group is not something easily explained.

Furthermore, there is context to consider. For example, to understand Okinawan karate, one needs to understand the animistic rituals -- kata were reportedly done in graveyards, which in Okinawa are definitely presided over by ghosts -- and something about sanshin play, as the tonalities (which are different from Western) suggest the tempo and rhythm to be used during public demonstration.

All this is a long way of saying that the meaning of a movement contained within a traditional form is culturally or even sub-culturally specific, and therefore there is often no simple, or single, answer. This is not to say that meanings cannot be explained to outsiders in anthropological detail, only that the explanations are not ones that lend themselves to bulletin board discussions between relative strangers.

Jari Virta
1st April 2001, 12:03
Originally posted by Jim Kass
clue, pay attention!!! I'm sorry you can't figure it out, but the following question by you say volumes!

You are right (as I have already said). I don't have a clue. If all instructors and practitioners were like you, I never would get a clue.

Where I come from, it is perfectly normal to ask "How can this move you taught me be used in a fight?", or "Would you recommend books by this author or are there better ones?" or "What is so different about your lead punch compared to a (kick)boxers punch?" etc.

You, Mr. Kass make it look like it is not proper to ask these questions in the karate-circles. If it is so, then I may have chosen a wrong art for me. On the other hand, if these are just your opinions, then maybe you should edit your options and add me to your ignore-list or simply skip anything that has my signature on it.

Jari Virta
1st April 2001, 12:18
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
A lot of the "lessons" contained within Okinawan kata are hard to explain unless you've done the thing a long time.

-snip-

This is not to say that meanings cannot be explained to outsiders in anthropological detail, only that the explanations are not ones that lend themselves to bulletin board discussions between relative strangers.

Often a beginner asks a question that is very basic for the beginner. He expects a simple basic answer. But when an advanced student/teacher sees the question, he sees it from the advanced stage and is incapable of seeing the question at the beginners' level anymore.

Joseph Svinth
1st April 2001, 13:06
You never asked us if seisan was designed for beginners, instead you asked us about the depth of application. Ask different questions, you get different answers.

From a quantifiable standpoint, the kata seisan is Chinese in origin, and probably dates to the eighteenth century. Fukyugata-series kata date to the period 1930-1970 and were, as your teacher noted, developed in part to facilitate instruction in public school PE classes.

How a particular kata fits into a system depends on the system and the teacher. For example, in Goju, seisan is often not taught until well into the black belt levels, whereas in your system (Kobayashi Shorin Ryu, perhaps?), it appears to be taught at the color belt level. So, is seisan an advanced kata or an intermediate one? Depends on who is teaching it. And that is how it should be. After all, a pattern is just a pattern, a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick, and none have any meaning save what we give them.

Jari Virta
1st April 2001, 13:29
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
How a particular kata fits into a system depends on the system and the teacher. For example, in Goju, seisan is often not taught until well into the black belt levels, whereas in your system, it appears to be taught at the color belt level.

But it seems to have enough depth to be considered an advanced kata in some schools. That tells me a lot.

Joseph Svinth
2nd April 2001, 10:24
Nuances can bite you big time even if a native speaker... :)

Margaret Lo
3rd April 2001, 21:35
Mr. Virta:
You might like to look at Morio Higaona's Goju Ryu Technical Series at http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Tsunami/Pages/section1.htm

Part V of the tape series has seisan. Videos won't whack you for having the nerve to be a beginner.

M

Victor
3rd April 2001, 22:59
From a different perspective, in Isshinryu Karate, Seisan Kata is the first kata taught. The founder of Isshinryu, in my estimation, was keeping to the tradition he studied when he was a youth.

Depending on the system there are quite different answers to where Seisan is taught. All of the different variations have a base commonality even with the attendant differences.

seisan
5th April 2001, 08:15
Hallo Seisan fans, and thank you for asking about my most favorite kata,Mr. Virta, that being the Seisan kata.

First a few prefatory remarks about kata training.

Style is irrelevant, completely.What is important in kata is training, understanding and application.

That you are a beginner is fine with me.You have beginner's mind, a mind uncluttered with stuff you 'know'.

Seisan is a relatively ancient kata for karate, meaning it is definitely over one hundred years old, as Aragaki Seisho is reported to have demonstrated a version of it back in the quite some years ago.

The original purpose of seisan is unknown, as is its originators, but it still exists under various names in Chinese styles, particularly Southern ones, or so I hear.

Analysed, its purpose appears to be to enable to conscientious and proficient practitioner of Seisan kata to Whip Dawse Butt Big Time.

The type or style of Seisan is irrelevant to this seeming purpose as all seisan variants appear to have this end in common.

Commonalities between various seisan kata include a propensity for attacking or if not that, defending vigorously and agtgressively in a forward direction to all four primary corners,'blocking'while stepping forwards, and stepping back only to effect some tragic consequence to whomsoever dared think unkind thought towards you and try to enact that thought.

Seisan kata appears to contain all necessary techniques to render one's attacker into jellied mush.

Bone Breaking attacks I mean defenses figure prominently, as well as many secondary bruising, bashing, busting and smacking waza,possibly including throws, footsweeps, point and joint attacks and not minor ones either, and some multiple overkill stuff that would make many blench with fear.

One may say with confidence that Seisan kata, is an old style battle kata, meaning that it requires little to no adaptation to suit it admirably for close quarters hand to hand action.

It was I believe Tatsuo Shmabuku of Isshinryu note,who said that all that was necessary to become invicible in a fight was to master seisan.I presume he meant have a real good shot at prevailing over a single unarmed attacker.

Its hard to fault his logic, considering the arsenal of techiques trained in seisan.which differ from version to version but all seem to include an emphasis on reverse punches, backfist strikes,leg evasions,front and sometimes side thrust kicks, knee strikes,blocks or strikes to various levels ,flowing and invasive footwork, powerful hip centered movement,some sweep or throw type footwork, and some ridge hand and knife hand type maneuvers being the nicest of the many techniques inculcated by practice of this fine form.

Crescent stepping allows entering past an attacking opponent, invading his space and devastating him pretty decisively.

Defenses against many typess of attacks make this a very complete and near perfect form.

It is no easy form to master. Master Kyan Chotoku of Shorin ryu is said to have spent two and a half years mastering this kata.

Is there depth in seisan?Oh, Yoss!:D More than most realize, as seisan is a soft hard form, having peculiar qualities such that a number of karateka only practiced that form.

There are some who realize that an entire system of self defense can be derived therefrom, as is also the case with some other kata.

Seisan is recognized for its solidity and its distinct stance,as well as the fluidity with which, in expert hands, it is accomplished.

Some play a game where they say, 'if you had but one kata to practice, which, oh which, would that one kata be?

Some answer seisan when asked that question.

Maverick
6th April 2001, 00:33
Could you give me some example bunkai for the section after the first turn around?

Thanks

zach
6th April 2001, 23:04
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
[B]A lot of the "lessons" contained within Okinawan kata are hard to explain unless you've done the thing a long time. For example, the need to relax the body part that seems to be doing all the work while simultaneously tensing a seemingly unrelated muscle group is not something easily explained.

Furthermore, there is context to consider. For example, to understand Okinawan karate, one needs to understand the animistic rituals -- kata were reportedly done in graveyards, which in Okinawa are definitely presided over by ghosts -- and something about sanshin play, as the tonalities (which are different from Western) suggest the tempo and rhythm to be used during public demonstration.


Just out of curiousity, where did you learn about this? The animism thing and Sanshin play and such? And I know it's kind of a loaded question, but do you know of a good book on it?

Also, I generally agree with you on "the basics", however, I also think different Dojo emphasize different Kata I've been through the most untraditional Dojo to about the most traditional I could find, and certainly at each one, even though they shared some sort of very common lineage, they were very different in each Dojo. Also, I noticed that different Instructors had very different ways of teaching kata in general, focused more on different aspects, etc. Most importantly to the conversation though, in my (albiet limited) experience, The most "traditional" Sensei was also the one who started teaching more advanced concepts from the beginning. And if you met the guy, not gonna drop names, but I think you'd have to give him his "traditional props" as it were. So it's not like every teacher of "traditional" Okinawan martial arts is going to make you do taikyuoko 1 (sorry if the spelling's off) For five years on the beach while not talking about bunkai etc, for fear of having your head used as his Makiwara.

Jari Virta
7th April 2001, 07:19
Thank you all for some excellent input! :)

Joseph Svinth
7th April 2001, 11:21
For Okinawan religion, start with William P. Lebra, *Okinawan Religion: Belief, Ritual, and Social Structure* (Honolulu: University of Hawai’i Press, 1985).

For sanshin, Charles Goodin has documented that Kentsu Yabu paid for his trips to the US by taking orders from Uchinanchu for collector-grade sanshin. Thus at least one noted public school karate pioneer was musically inclined. Now, I'm not saying that sanshin influenced karate any more than ragtime influenced Jack Johnson or jazz influenced Sonny Liston, but inasmuch as boxing is a rhythm activity, it is my theory that the songs you hum influence your fighting (and kata).

zach
7th April 2001, 21:29
Heh, funny you should say that, i'm actually a bit of an amateur musician myself, and i've been working on these rythmic, drony things just for practicing kata, in something approximating what sort of tuning I would think would be used. I used to work out with a guy who had us do kata to a metronome, I think it's good to have something like that to give you a sense of rythm, particularly if youre large and slow like myself, heh, for me that kind of thing makes the kata into a whole rather than a bunch of pieces strung together.

Ed Howard
2nd May 2001, 20:35
Don't know if this is true or not but a teacher of mine in Japan told me that there wasa story behind seisan that it was to do with fighting crossing a narrow bridge, uke, tsuki uke tsuki as you dispose of opponents. At the end of the bridge you turn round, and use shuto ukes and attacks. the latter part is using backfist attacks first to the rear and the front then the rear again (the seisan we do is basically all on one line like a bridge right?!)
It could be sheer fantasy, but I liked the visual aspect of it anyway!

In terms of advice, hammer the basics, then hammer them some more. the applications are interesting, but don't get too cluttered with them.

Good luck

Ryukyu Shorinryu

(Same as the seibukan Katas)

kusanku
2nd May 2001, 23:19
Ed-
Interesting. Is your seisan straight line? Everyone I know of( and that's a lot) is a cross pattern.This would preclude the bridge explanation, which however, I got a good laugh out of.:-)

Tell you why- saw myself in Okinawa, facing opponents lined up on the sho bashi(little bridge, so only theree could get on at once.:-)

Then uke-tsuki, there goes one off the bashi, uke-tsuki- there goes another, sploosh!

Then uke tsuki glad there were only three of those bad dudes 'cause i were running out of kata in that direction.

Wow- I escaped, damn, I forgot by Kanji Bar I bought in town, now I gotta turn around on the bashi( cross stepping because by golly, it is a narrow little bridge:-)

And go back for my kanji bar, a hershey's with Almonds, supreme, and now dang here's three more warriors blocking my return path, heck, this time I am gonna hit 'em with my hait and shuto and Pull them into the water, just for a change.

Now since we are doing Tomari seisan,I gotta go in a cross pattern now, and off I go into the waer, swimming as i hit with my backfist, knocking Okinawan fish unconscious, but by heaven I am Going back to get that kanji bar.:-)

Cost two thousand yen after all.

Thank heaven for seisan kata.But which do I use in a marketplace when the whole place attacks to get my kanji bar? I know- I'll just do-
Kusanku.:D

Maverick
3rd May 2001, 04:23
But doesn't that work only at night?

kusanku
3rd May 2001, 08:31
Maverick asks:'But doesn't that work only at night?'


Naw, that's Passai that's for night fighting, with its searching hands maneuver.

Kusanku is for daytime fightin aainst eight simultaneous mltiple attackers, probably one of 'em has a knife, too.:D.Damn tough crowd, lemme tell ya."

Can't believe everything they tell you.:-)

Ed Howard
3rd May 2001, 12:33
That's the one, my teacher used to do the sploosh noises when he was explaining much to the amusement of all around!
I see what you mean about it being a cross, the third section where you do the 2 tsuki and keri are in a cross, but we have already come back over the sho hashi by then !!!
As for the night thing, I think he used to tell it that it was at dusk coming home from somewhere, but I am sure that was a bit of storytelling artistic license on his part!
So Chinto is the crane on the rock.
Seisan the bridge.
Kusanku the chinese warrior.
Any good stories for Wansu, Ananku and Passai?

kusanku
3rd May 2001, 23:05
Ed says:' That's the one!'

Must have been a lot of wet Toudi practitioners then.:-)

Kusanku( coming home at dusk)

Reminds me of a Kobayashi ryu grading I was at one time.They asked a nidan candidate for the bunkai of Naihanchi Nidan. He began,' A man and his dog were walking along the beach...' and cracked the whole testing board up.

Chinto: Crane Falling Off a Rock.

Passai: feeling one's way across a giant slice of Pizza in a darkened room.

Wanshu; Defending yourself after losing one shoe, thus having only wanshu left.

Ananku: defending oneself while in a book, tape and video store( On Cue).

Pinan:defending oneself by standing on a bridge above one's opponent's who are below, and ... never mind, that one's disgusting.:D

Sanchin: throw sand at an attacker, blinding him, then punch to the chin.

Chin Na: Grab the assailant by the chin, twisting it until he says, "Naaaa!'

Naihanchi' stepping back and forth from side to side while making various obscene gestures at multiple opponents until they fall down laughing, then you rei, and run.

I think these are all equally valid interpretations as seisan, a cross form, being designed for combat on a bridge.

I once was told chinto was for fighting on a bridge, but it must have been just one bridge, built on a diagonal.

Some guys I knew who should have known far better:-), developed a vaguely suggestive kata designed for approaching females in a bar, called Koo Chi Koo.Performing those apps would get you slapped, or jailed, depending on which level of application you attempted.It went as I recall from the Pick Up line to actual tickling.

Women however, might be able to get away with it, we are a long way from total equality as yet.:-)

I of course had niothing whatever to do with the creation of this kat, and if anyone else who Did, is on here, shut the heck up, already.

Another group withn which I was in no wise associated, no, created an art called Bing Bang Bong.It was a modern martial art designed for reallife contingencies and contained a sub art of weaponry usually found in or near fast food restaurants, called Kitchen Kobudo, supposedly founded by Gichin Funakoshi's chef Cousin, Kitchen Funakoshi.

The grill Press, the grease flip, and the Descending Pan, were staple techniques of this art, the ultimate level of which was , if I remember correctly, the Real Hot Coffee Drop.

The egg slip was a secret waza of this art, involving purchasing a Big Breakfast, and throwing the scrambled eggs under the feet of an approaching attacker.While no one I know ever had to use this, the conseqences could obviously be quite deadly.

Especially since the followup move to the downed opponent was the Pepper fling,using either the opened paper packet or for more power, the actualplastic table shaker.Warning: Do Not attempt this technique without being sure you have the Pepper and not the salt.

Our art was approved by the Great Martial Arts Master, John F. Gilbey.

Or it should have been anyway.I mean, the art of those guys with whom, I was in no way associated, one of whom brought the notebook in which all had been inscribed, with him, to a workout with his eighth dan shorin ryu Sensei, who opened it, looked oddly at all of us, shrugged, and closed the notebook.

Nothing more was ever mentioned, as far as i know, to the implicated group of senior black belt students.Ahhhem.:D

That's my story and I'm stickin; to it, using the Bing Bang Bong Kitchen Kobudo Teflon anti-blame technique.


Go ahead and ask Gilbey,, you'll see.:D

Maverick
4th May 2001, 04:17
Passai: feeling one's way across a giant slice of Pizza in a darkened room.

I thought Passai was looking for Dolly Parton in a darkened room?

hakutsuru
4th May 2001, 07:31
I was feeling a little disheartened with this forum this evening until I read Kusanku's post. I laughed so hard I'll probably have to rub tiger balm on my ribs in the mourning. Thanks. :laugh:

Thomas Lane

hakutsuru
4th May 2001, 07:50
I was feeling a little disheartened with this forum this evening until I read Kusanku's post. I laughed so hard I'll probably have to rub tiger balm on my ribs in the mourning. Thanks. :laugh:

Thomas Lane

Ed Howard
4th May 2001, 12:06
You must have access to strong lager or too much time on your hands mate.
Still made me chuckle.
Dont reckon anyone would have much trouble finding Dolly in the dark, but I'd advise against dropping to one knee for fear of suffocation.

Maverick
5th May 2001, 04:31
Well, she is pretty short. Hmmph

Jussi Häkkinen
5th May 2001, 05:07
Umm, Mr.Virta, I suggest you to ask questions about seisan from Mr. Mitrunen, Mr. Laari, Mr. Liimatainen or possibly our foreign senseis when they have a seminar. I can also tell you something about it, if you pull my sleeve.
I believe we follow same tradition (Shorin-Ryu Seibukan, Sukunaihayashi) and your question would have been answered soon ig you had asked about it in seminar or just kept your ears open. After all, Seisan is a foundation kata for us.

No, Seisan in our tradition is not a basic kata nor it is a shallow kata. It features very sophisticated bunkai and should be studied thoroughtly by any seibukan student. By joining seminars AND asking your teacher (we have a joyoys situation of a small style - we have _very_ knowledgeable teachers) you learn it. Long way but well worth it.


People who ask about other kata: Ananku is made by Kyan Chotoku-sensei, possible when he visited Taiwan, to demonstrate his (and ours) style. It has movements from Seisan, Passai and Wansu, so being the combination of Shuri-te and Tomari-te kata. Short article about other katas of our style can be found at http://personal.inet.fi/yhdistys/seibukan/kata/kata_eng.htm

Jari Virta
9th May 2001, 12:01
Originally posted by Jussi Häkkinen
Umm, Mr.Virta, I suggest you to ask questions about seisan from Mr. Mitrunen, Mr. Laari, Mr. Liimatainen or possibly our foreign senseis when they have a seminar

Really? :smash:

So do you think all the kata -threads on this forum discussing the different kata of Okinawan karate are unimportant, or just mine about seisan?

See, the forum has a specific thread on just about every kata. I noticed that many such threads had nice discussion but didn't see such thread on seisan at all. This is why I begun a thread on seisan.

I don't see talking about different kata & waza with people from different organizations as a generally bad idea, do you?

Jussi Häkkinen
9th May 2001, 15:21
No, it is not a bad idea, when one remembers that each style and school has their own bunkai (well, bunkai is not completely correct word when speaking about okinawan style). It is interesting to know others too, but knowing the style's own official application should always come first. We have our official bunkai for Seisan.

What made me curious was that you asked whether Seisan has "limited applications like fukyugata". Well, although Fukyugata, in our style, is handled shallowly, it will not mean that it has limited applications. I also wondered that because there is a lot of information about Seisan in our style available. It is also commonly said that Seisan is our "root kata" that we build about everything onto, when we start teaching or learning Seisan, so it is pretty weird to think it as "limited" in any area.

Well, it never hurts to ask. But I suggest listening also when no question is placed. It takes years to master any kata, decades to master karate. Lifetime or more, perhaps.

I wish you luck in this task. I wish that we will meet in the next seminar, I believe that we have again that little history talk there in our group. Join in and enjoy. I mostly listen, it is very relaxing and makes me learn all the time. The answer to "Why Nagamine did not teach Seisan" -question was also available in that source.

Hank Irwin
16th May 2001, 03:54
Joe Sensei, real good imput. So much I agree with you on in this matter. Very hard to explain. I am trying(when I can get the time) to put some bunkai photos for beginner kata on my site, maybe some of you other KarateKa can too? It's a lot easier to explain when you have photos. Trying to not get too technical will be the trick and not being vague and "mystical" about things. Just a thought. KusanKu, you K-rack! me up my friend. You are a very welcome fixture here at e-budo, glad I am a member here, lot's of good folks. Hey Jaisan, you do ask a valid question, and were given some real good responses, but I would like to add something. The Seisan I learned(Osborne Clan Shorinji-ryu) is a very difficult kata to learn completly. I worked on Seisan for 2 years myself and no matter how long you do it, it is a physically demanding kata. Very powerful also. Techniques I learned in it that I found most profound were "iron wall', Chinese walking principles, whip kicking, and advanced tai sabaki. Little bit of tuite there also. But those principles are inherent in Wansu and AnnaKu also. After learning and studying Seisan for a couple of years you will find much advanced applications, but that doesn't mean it is an advanced kata. IMO I think the only thing advanced about anything is the interpretation after many years of study.

Hank Irwin
16th May 2001, 03:57
Sorry "Jarisan", forgot the "r".

heiwa

Maverick
16th May 2001, 04:13
The only seisan I've done is the one in Isshin ryu. Anybody know of any differences between it and the others?

Hank, what part of the kata is "iron wall"?

Hank Irwin
19th May 2001, 03:34
The iron wall principle is the area between your technique or at least it "looks" that way. In Ryukyu Kempo it is facilitated through what appears to be the covering of vital parts when moving, counter-attacking. But it is more than that. The motion is the elbow to elbow positioning seen in all "blocks" this is much of where " there are no blocks in Karate" came from I think. In a down "block"with left side, you raise left fist towards right ear and right fist is at centerline over groin elbow to elbow no? This is iron wall. All of us know of the little ignored principle. Through and through all of our kata. Use the block scenario, opponent right punch, your left comes up to block hammer fist style(really a good koreatay strike) right hits his/her stomach/sternum/armpit whatever,right hand retrieves opponent's right, you follow through to backside of his/her arm downblock fashion. These are fundamental principles though. Combined with proper body change and timing it is a very useful "tool".

PingAnTu
6th June 2001, 04:42
Judging from the responses from some of the senior members on this site, I'm suprised and baffled why anyone would want to learn karate. If a beginner asks a simple question, give a simple but understandable answer.

Seisan Kata (I practice Tomari seisan) is a foundational kata. The main point is the leg strength benefits, sliding hip movements, and bi-directional force (like the punch, punch, kick, punch sequences). If you can learn to bounce your techniques off of one another with this kata, you have done well. You'll learn how to be lightning fast and how to give an attacker a flurry of pain in several body parts.

Take at least a year and practice at least ten times a day. If you pay attention when you practice, that should be sufficient.

Just my experience, but what does everyone else think?

Victor
6th June 2001, 06:16
Paul,

The issue whether Seisan is a foundation kata or and advanced kata really resides more in what an instructor or system chooses to do with it.

Originally most kata were likely individual creations that eventually found their way into larger studies (IMVHHHHHO).

Some systems kept their Seisan as a beginning kata. Some systems kept their Seisan as an advanced kata. About a year ago I did a study in Seisan-ness, eventually looking at about 15 differing Okinawan Seisan kata for their underlying sameness.

Now in the Isshinryu system, the older pattern prevails, and Seisan is taught first. In that sense a good 3 to 6 months the basic essence of the form is taught, and then the student begins the longer range study of good mechanics in their seisan.

As it was passed to me, and as Shimabuku Tatsuo taught my original instructor, there was no study of the application of the form given. Dan Smith of the Seibukan has remarked in the past, the Okinawan approach most often was not to study applications, excpet to show them when the student couldn't grasp the beginning movement, and then to show them personally on the students body to drive the lesson home <grin>.

As you mentioned, you don't want to overburden the beginning mind with the depth of any movement. The use of movement application then is a device to focus the students movement in a particular direction, and such applications are structred for that purpose. Often having little to do with the 'real' application of the movement against the attack, in later study.

It strikes me that the real study of application only begins when the student is advanced enough (IMVHO 10 or so years on the form) to really believe the technique and not modify it into something else. But that is simply my opinion.

While a system/instrutor chooses to begin someplace, that doesn't mean the kata is simple. When you get into advanced analysis of any kata movement, they all become incredibly complex and filled with many useful technique.

Personally I've been mining Seisan for 27 years, and I really am sure I haven't plumbed its full depths either. But everything really depends on what price you wish to pay.

At the same time, I cannot teach much I do with Seisan to the kyu, to do so would take time away from more profitable areas of study at their young ages in the arts.

Hank Irwin
7th June 2001, 04:40
I learned Wansu, then AnnaKu, then Seisan. Took 7 years before I got to Seisan. The versions I learned are Shorinji-ryu Seisan,(Zenpo Sensei's is slightly different) 2 versions of Tomari Seisan and Ueichi Seisan. All four are different, especially from Ueichi-ryu. All four are advanced level kata. Ueichi-ryu IMO is the closest to original taught in Fujian Province. It is an advanced form none the less and should be taught as such. Change is evident, and necessary, but unfortunately it is the main reason we have lost so much when it comes to accuracy of account in lineage and correct "interpretation" of what has been taught.

PingAnTu
8th June 2001, 07:34
I've never really thought about it before but Seisan kata is found in both the Tomari and Naha traditions. Ueichi and Goju Seisan is very different in flavor than Tomari Seisan. The question is this: How are they fundamentally different and which one came first? (Not which one is better, because they both represent sound principles).

Now, we all know that Naha styles prefer overt power in their movements while Shuri and Tomari prefer light movement and speed. Naha styles use Seisan kata with their theory and the same is true of Shuri and Tomari. But this kata is undoubtably Chinese in origin. So it came from somewhere in China.

The key, I think in finding the origins of Seisan can be found in the name itself. Seisan of course means "13". The pronunciation of Seisan is the Okinawan attempt to say the mandarin Shisan (it sounds like Shr san). In the Fujian dialect it is pronounced "Zap Sah" so I don't think the kata came from Fujian (I'm not sure how it's pronounced in the FuZhou dialect). Mandarin at that time was spoken in Northern China. So a case could be made that it was introduced into Okinawa by a Northern Chinese martial artist. If so, the oldest versions would be the versions that favor the hallmark of nothern chinese martial arts... light movement, explosive punching and kicking, and speed.

I know I'm stretching it here but it's just a theory.

As far as the placement of the kata in the training regiment. It could be argued that (at least Tomari seisan) is a foundational kata because of the repetition of sequences. The repetition seems to point to the kata being a training kata instead of a fighting kata (If there is such a thing).

So there are many versions of Seisan but as far as I can tell, they all boil down to Naha and Tomari. So this is a crossover kata. Are there any other crossover kata? Non that I can think of off the top of my head. Can anybody think of one?