BSKF Beat WSKO [Archive]

Ewok

1st July 2013, 15:20

I quite enjoyed:

The use must be by way of real commercial exploitation of the mark on the market for the relevant goods or services, i.e. exploitation that is aimed at maintaining or creating an outlet for the goods or services or a share in that market

Which they failed to do, as:

Instead, WSKO members were ordered, on pain of expulsion,
to purchase clothing from these suppliers. One can only assume that WSKO received a commission on these goods, as they appear to be regarded, by the purchasers, as being significantly over priced. The Japanese companies did not seek out custom from the UK; UK consumers were forced to go to these companies despite the problems of dealing with companies which did not make any real concessions to non-Japanese speaking clients.

The irony is killing me :laugh:

Indar

1st July 2013, 17:40

Much as I dislike certain individuals within the BSKF it is good to see common sense prevail

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/tm/t-os/t-find/t-challenge-decision-results/o25813.pdf

Dislike? Age has mellowed you :cry:

David Dunn

17th February 2014, 13:27

And the judgment in the Appeal was handed down this morning. Here it is http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.pdf

Indar

18th February 2014, 11:48

And the judgment in the Appeal was handed down this morning. Here it is http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2014/285.pdf

Thanks for sharing this info., and well done for taking on an opponent with a lot more resources than you - regardless of the result.

However, I wonder if you have opened a Pandora's box? Can anyone who has previously trained with the BSKF start their own association/federation and claim to be teaching Shorinji Kempo? If the term "Shorinji Kempo" is simply a generic term like "karate" then presumably the answer is yes.

stevenm

18th February 2014, 17:07

Thanks for sharing this info., and well done for taking on an opponent with a lot more resources than you - regardless of the result.

However, I wonder if you have opened a Pandora's box? Can anyone who has previously trained with the BSKF start their own association/federation and claim to be teaching Shorinji Kempo? If the term "Shorinji Kempo" is simply a generic term like "karate" then presumably the answer is yes.

Congratulations guys.

This ruling should not come as a surprise to anyone with half a brain.

Mind you I could always establish the "Bournemouth Shorinji Kempo Federation" (BSKF).

See you in court!

Indar

26th March 2014, 13:00

Does this judgement mean that the BSKF now has to allow me to practise Shorinji Kempo?

"Please desist training in Shorinji Kempo immediately, until such time that the BSKF considers otherwise"

From a letter to me on BSKF headed notepaper and signed by the BSKF general secretary, dated 6th September 2008.

Anders Pettersson

26th March 2014, 22:24

Well people change opinions it seems:

The cultural issue is of the 'iemoto' system:
http://www.answers.com/topic/iemoto
which is explicitly undemocratic. Essentially, you can't change it - that is the nature of the organisation. I don't think there is much point in having a discussion about whether WSKO should be democratic, because it ain't going to happen.

It also makes the issue of authenticity fairly easy. If you're not registered with hombu as a branchmaster, then it isn't authentic Shorinji Kempo. In Europe, Aosaka Sensei is the headmaster, appointed by Kaiso, and likewise with Mizuno Sensei in the UK. We can't have a vote to change that.

The bold highlighting is by me.

I had (still has from my point of view, even if I haven't met them IRL for a few years now) many good friends on both sides (or maybe several sides now since other people have left and formed their own organisations) of the breakup in UK.
What I find strange is that the people ("BSKF") who have left WSKO and obviously don't like the Shorinji Kempo hombu still wants to call what they do for Shorinji Kempo.
If I had left I would call it something totally different, but on the other hand if I left I would most likely not do any type of martial art at all.

/Anders

David Dunn

27th March 2014, 09:46

Indar, of course that's what it means. It's always been the case that you are free to practice and teach whatever you like as long as you remain on the right side of the law and any insurance arrangements and other conditions on the venues you use. Any assertions to the contrary are wrong, as this shows, including when they were made by us in the past. All we could say is that you can't use our name to identify what you're doing. The letter you mention should have said "teach under the name of...". In fact the various organisations (Abbey Kempo, Bushin, Bournemouth, Ade Starr's) are entitled to say what they are doing is Shorinji kempo, in part, total, based on etc.

Anders, you've made a sleight of hand. We didn't leave, we were expelled. What would you do if the Swedish Federation was expelled, but you still wanted to carry on teaching and practicing Shorinji kempo? It's a different scenario. The BSKF existed for six years before joining WSKO. It's existed for four already since being kicked out. Why aren't we entitled to correctly identify what we do? This latter point came up in the appeal hearing. Even if our trademark is confusingly similar to WSKO's, we are entitled to describe our goods and services as "shorinji kempo". WSKO's barrister made that plain.

Anders Pettersson

20th April 2014, 17:28

Anders, you've made a sleight of hand. We didn't leave, we were expelled. What would you do if the Swedish Federation was expelled, but you still wanted to carry on teaching and practicing Shorinji kempo? It's a different scenario. The BSKF existed for six years before joining WSKO. It's existed for four already since being kicked out. Why aren't we entitled to correctly identify what we do? This latter point came up in the appeal hearing. Even if our trademark is confusingly similar to WSKO's, we are entitled to describe our goods and services as "shorinji kempo". WSKO's barrister made that plain.

Well David, now you are bending things a little. :)
You were not expelled, the Federation was the organisation that didn't meet the requirements to continue as a country federation of WSKO, but each branch could have stayed in WSKO as what is called associated member. And many branches did just that. It was your own choice to leave.

Also I do believe all the branches (even if some probably at the time was "associated clubs" of a registered branch) in UK belonged to WSKO since the very beginning (even if the federation at that time wasn't a recognised member), if not then members wouldn't have been able to become registered members nor receive certification for ranks etc. and I am pretty sure they did that.

And to answer your question what I would do if the Swedish Federation would be "expelled"; I would most likely continue to practice and continue to have my branch stay as a member of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization.

As for you guys still continue to call what you do as "Shorinji Kempo" is in my mind like if one worked for the Coca-Cola company and had the recipe for Coca-Cola, but left the company and decided to continue to sell and market the drink as "Coca-Cola", probably look very similar and taste very similar, but not the "real thing". It would be better to call it something else, I think.

This used to be your own view as well, but seems to have changed.

I think it is sad that you all have left. I had a good relationship with Mizuno-sensei and enjoyed to come over to UK to attend different gasshuku (still do).
I think Mizuno-sensei got some bad advice (i.e. to continue outside of WSKO) after he was suspended, I would have preferred that you all stayed within WSKO and that Mizuno-sensei could have come back after the suspension period.

/Anders

dirk.bruere

15th June 2014, 16:58

Just back on e-budo, and have resumed training since about this time last year. I see nothing much has changed. Anyway, I train these days simply for health, fitness and fun. I do not intend to grade again nor wear a Honbu approved Gi with that crap badge, so I guess we won't be meeting at summer camps. And that's my last word on SK politics - a pox on both our houses.

SandM

5th September 2014, 16:34

And to answer your question what I would do if the Swedish Federation would be "expelled"; I would most likely continue to practice and continue to have my branch stay as a member of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization.

As for you guys still continue to call what you do as "Shorinji Kempo" is in my mind like if one worked for the Coca-Cola company and had the recipe for Coca-Cola, but left the company and decided to continue to sell and market the drink as "Coca-Cola", probably look very similar and taste very similar, but not the "real thing". It would be better to call it something else, I think.

Hello Anders,

I don't think I've seen you since Durham in 2010(?) - I hope you are well.

When I started, I actually wanted to do the physical martial art of Shorinji kempo and follow the teachings on So Doshin. For much of my time spent training, being a member of WSKO seemed to be a logical way to pursue this, but being a member of WSKO was never an ambition of mine in and of itself.

If being a member of WSKO is the important thing here, then there is clearly only one path to follow. If practicing the martial art of Shorinji kempo and studying the philosophy of So Doshin, then there appears to be more than one path to the top of the mountain.

Regards,

Mike

Kari MakiKuutti

5th September 2014, 21:59

All paths do not lead to the top.

sean dixie

6th September 2014, 18:57

Kari MakiKuutti

6th September 2014, 21:19

Oh dear Kari, couldn't resist? You've nothing to do with UK Shorinji Kempo or the BSKF. You only know what the WSKO affiliated friends have told you and what WSKO party line is. Oh, and the E-Budo threads where, to be honest nothing could really be said for fear of the great WSKO and it's lawyers.
I also have information from non-WSKO affiliated people. Who used to be in BSKF. And personal information from the past.

So here you go, if WSKO is the only way to get to your 'top' wherever that maybe...
I did not actually say that. But it is interesting that you should think so.

then why have so many talented and formally dedicated instructors forgone that route?
Most of the talented and formally dedicated instructors who (in Great Britain) have left WSKO are not in BSKF, either.
They are in UKSKF or have started their own varieties of Kempo.

Are you better than them? Have they all been brainwashed by 'Mizuno' (Formally WSKO director - unpaid) All of them across Japan, Europe and Japan?
No, I do not feel better than them.
Some of them (in BSKF) are probably "brainwashed by 'Mizuno' "

sean dixie

7th September 2014, 07:12

I also have information from non-WSKO affiliated people. Who used to be in BSKF. And personal information from the past.

If you had the right information, and also had a good enough conscience and professed to follow the philosophies of Shorinji Kempo you would have left already.

I did not actually say that. But it is interesting that you should think so.

Apologies, how should I have read this?

There is only one way to the top

Most of the talented and formally dedicated instructors who (in Great Britain) have left WSKO are not in BSKF, either.
They are in UKSKF or have started their own varieties of Kempo.

Well respectfully they're not in UKSKF. A fair point about the guys who left though, and when you go train with those guys they also agree that WSKO is a dying organisation.

No, I do not feel better than them.

That's nice.

Some of them (in BSKF) are probably "brainwashed by 'Mizuno' "

You can't be further from the truth.

sean dixie

7th September 2014, 07:35

Apologies again Kari for a mis-quote above. It should of course have been:

"All paths do not lead to the top."

My question however remains the same.

Indar

7th September 2014, 07:54

If you had the right information, and also had a good enough conscience and professed to follow the philosophies of Shorinji Kempo you would have left already.

Well respectfully they're not in UKSKF. A fair point about the guys who left though, and when you go train with those guys they also agree that WSKO is a dying organisation.

Our instructors are not talented and dedicated? Maehara Sensei? (Ask the Italians). Sensei Peter Moore (Training in the U.K. for 40 years).

Me? (Don't claim to be especially talented, but certainly dedicated).

Are you for real?

sean dixie

7th September 2014, 10:12

That's two, but let's not forget the incident of leaving a kenshi to have a heart attack outside in the car park whilst he was watched by 'sensei' from the window. Safely inside with no responsibilty. Leader? My arse. I'm not particularly talented either and certainly to fat! 😄

Tripitaka of AA

7th September 2014, 21:45

Before this gets any sillier, I must point out the grammatical slip-up before I burst.

Most of the talented and formally dedicated instructors who (in Great Britain) have left WSKO.....
Sean, did you mean "formerly dedicated" (as in, "used to be"), or "formally dedicated" (as in "those who had it stamped on them")? That could be Ade, with his tattoo... ;)

Kari MakiKuutti

8th September 2014, 09:42

Before the split BSKF had (to my knowledge) one 7th dan and three 6th dan Senseis. (Not counting Mr. Mizuno)
None of them remain in BSKF now.

Makes one wonder...

David Dunn

8th September 2014, 12:11

Before the split, one eighth dan (Mizuno sensei), one seventh (Maehara), one sixth (Jee sensei), several fifth (Russ Jenkins, Peter Moore, Paul White, Terry Goodman, Yasue Kadowaki, Cailey Barker).

sean dixie

8th September 2014, 17:12

.

Makes one wonder...

Makes one wonder... where your getting your information?

sean dixie

8th September 2014, 17:31

Sean, did you mean "formerly dedicated" (as in, "used to be"), or "formally dedicated" (as in "those who had it stamped on them")? That could be Ade, with his tattoo... ;)

Hi David, sorry about that, I meant the former there. I really do try hard to spell correctly and get the grammar right but I'm slightly dyslexic I think and I just don't 'see' some of the things that slip past me. People who can spell just don't know how lucky they are, I get so angry sometimes! Silly? You haven't given up a huge part of your life in defence of what's right and ALSO in defence of a friend. (I assume? Feel free to PM to correct me) The funny thing is, and most people don't seem to get, is that Sensei Mizuno was really only a part of why we were fighting WSKO. It was WSKO's treatment of the BSKF and their belief that they could ride rough-shod through British justice and assume that kenshi are somehow simply obliged to do as their told without question that riled. It's a shame that two of the most intelligent and nicest guys I know, who were in the thick of it with us are now banned from e-budo so it's left to schmucks like me to try and tell the truth. There's David Dunn of course, but if I may say, I think after teaching himself so much about IP law and fighting WSKO for free years he's probably a bit knackered and needs a break :)

Kari MakiKuutti

8th September 2014, 17:44

Before the split, one eighth dan (Mizuno sensei), one seventh (Maehara), one sixth (Jee sensei), several fifth (Russ Jenkins, Peter Moore, Paul White, Terry Goodman, Yasue Kadowaki, Cailey Barker).
Ok, then Russ Jenkins and and Peter Moore got their sixth dans after the split?

My main point is that the most senior kenshi left BSKF and Mr. Mizuno.
(Cailey Barker also left, I do not know about the rest on your list).

sean dixie

8th September 2014, 19:31

'Free' :cry:

David Dunn

8th September 2014, 22:28

Kari,
I have no idea why you are so vituperative about the BSKF. I just stated the facts. Russell and Peter got their sixth dan after the split, yes. They wanted to try for it in 2007 or so, but Russ wasn't very well and couldn't go to Tadotsu to do it. Mizuno sensei asked hombu if he could take the exam in the UK, but they refused. Ironically, after the split, they did allow it. But don't let facts spoil your narrative.

Many of the most senior kenshi left both WSKO and the BSKF, that is true. I forgot to mention Chris Lloyd in my list, and apologies for doing so. In my opinion the best Shorinji technicians in the UK are Mizuno sensei (by two country miles), Jee sensei, and Paul White sensei (by a country mile each). They are all in different organisations to each other now, and none in WSKO. They are all "seekers", as my friend Rob Villiers would say. They rely on no one but themselves, and they all strive for constant improvement. Cailey was also coming into that frame. I wish they were all in the BSKF still, but wishes cannot make reality.

Since I'm in the mood for story-telling, here's another. After Yuji Suzuki's time in Italy ran out, Maehara went to Como branch to be the instructor. In 1980, the senior kenshi there wanted promotion, so they said "grade us or lose your work permit". There was some kerfuffle, and the Italian guys got his work permit revoked. Maehara met Mizuno sensei in 1980 at Doshin So's funeral, and Mizuno sensei said he would help Maehara to get a work permit in the UK. He did exactly that, and it took two years to organise. Maehara took on Oxford University branch at that time.

The real stories are much more interesting, and far more humane, than the BS.

Sean, I'm tired of BS, but I'm not tired of trying to tell the real story.

Tripitaka of AA

9th September 2014, 08:32

Sorry Sean, I had to do it. I love reading your posts and would hate to put anyone off adding to the threads.

David, if you are in the mood, can you fill in a missing bit of history for me. It is from way back, but you seem to have been hanging out in the archives so you might know. Who is Toshio Sato? I recall him being the right-hand kenshi at the closing ceremonies and similar events when I first started. He'd be the guy refilling the sake bottle, the "other" Japanese face alongside Mizuno Sensei. Then one day he stopped being around. I assumed he'd gone home to Japan - as so many people do when their work secondments come to an end - but was told that he'd left Shorinji Kempo after starting to teach another form of Buddhism. I wonder if you could clear that up for me. I'd hate to go on thinking something that was actually just a misunderstood comment.

Tripitaka of AA

9th September 2014, 08:43

It's a shame that two of the most intelligent and nicest guys I know, who were in the thick of it with us are now banned from e-budo so it's left to schmucks like me to try and tell the truth.

Not that many people get banned from E-Budo, it usually takes quite an effort to be thrown out. Having said that, I agree with you that we miss the contributions of those people. I wonder if any of them would be willing to petition for re-admission? I imagine pride would prevent that. People who take a stand and state their cases are not usually willing to apologise or back down. And rightly so. I'd like to see some stimulating debate and quality threads again... the last few days on here have been entertaining haven't they?

David Dunn

9th September 2014, 09:09

David, Toshio Sato was a kenshi at the PCL branch. I'm not sure he started in 1974, but soon after. The PCLSU magazine McGarel (https://www.facebook.com/TheBSKF/photos/a.800327546667745.1073741872.179978325369340/818554578178375/?type=3&theater) namechecked him in 1977. Mizuno sensei stopped being the regular instructor at PCL in 1979. There was a dojo at Blackfriars at the time, and I think he concentrated on that, while Tom Sharpe took the reins at PCL. Toshi stayed in the UK for quite a while. I believe, although I'm happy to be corrected, that he started the Bishopsgate dojo. He was General Secretary of the BSKA before Terry Goodman took over from him in about 1984, and had pieces in each of the editions of Gassho in 1983. I'll ask Mizuno sensei what became of him. All I know is that he returned to Japan. Perhaps he just ran out of visa?

Not that many people get banned from e-budo? Tony Kehoe, Tony Leith, Adrian Simpson, Adrian Starr all spring to mind.

Tripitaka of AA

9th September 2014, 09:45

Yes indeed, those names feature prominently in some of the best (and worst) threads to be found here. All of them with strong views, forthright opinions and an admirable ability to stand firm. Unfortunately, those qualities can end up in a "unstoppable force comes up against an immovable object" situation. If I recall correctly, those names all ended up falling foul of the E-Budo rule about treating other people with respect, which can be hard to do if it feels like compromising your own beliefs.

Me? I'll compromise over everything from what to buy for supper to which political leader to vote for. I'm easily swayed and prone to capitulation. I'm no mighty Oak, but I may not be much of a Willow tree either. The fact that I'm still here may not be much of a victory if I'm all alone having conversations in the dark without anyone answering.

David, thanks for the prompt answer regarding Toshio.

David Dunn

9th September 2014, 11:29

David, I'm not sure the email address I have for you is the one you still use. Could you drop me a line?

sean dixie

9th September 2014, 13:06

Cheers Dave, I hadn't heard that story about Maehara. So many people who Sensei Mizuno has helped out, just shafted him in the end eh?

Omicron

10th September 2014, 00:56

the last few days on here have been entertaining haven't they?

As a non-Brit former kenshi, I've been watching with great interest and fascination! Its almost been nostalgic to see this forum so active again.

Tripitaka of AA

10th September 2014, 07:00

.. although I wish we had separated some of the threads a bit more :) It all gets very confusing trying to remember which comment came from which thread.

Kari MakiKuutti

11th September 2014, 10:05

Kari,
I have no idea why you are so vituperative about the BSKF.
Have you noted that my comments on BSKF in E-Budo are mostly made after someone from BSKF attacks WSKO.
I sometimes feel the need to make the discussion less one-sided.

It seems to me that some BSKF members are (still?) very bitter on the way things went and are going.

SandM

11th September 2014, 15:41

It seems to me that some BSKF members are (still?) very bitter on the way things went and are going.

Hello Kari,

I believe we trained together in Norcia in 2007 - one of the WSKO seminars I most fondly remember (although if you ate all of the lunch, afternoon training was somewhat lethargic).

I think you'd have to go through the grinder yourself to find out what the process is like. It's not pleasant, and you are left with no "up" side. The old BSKF had many faults (many of which we've tried to remedy through its 'rebirth'), but it had many well-motivated and talented members. One thing I regret the most is that my own grading partner was so dis-heartened by the cynical manipulation and ruthless partisanship of the break-up that he now does Judo. A lot of this was due to underlying tensions within the BSKF, but WSKO's actions of playing one group off against the other created the perfect storm, and few of us thank them for it.

[The US federation has actually suffered a similar fate to the BSKF, where a lot of the major characters in the federation have been replaced by those that WSKO feels are loyal. These major characters are no longer members of WSKO, and many of those who remain are demotivated.]

Then there's the expensive lawyers that we've had to go up against on our own in our own time. My son was born 14 months ago, and during his earliest months I spent too much time running round writing legal documents, going to the High Courts in London, and just plain worrying. They've been using their huge financial resources to explore every legal avenue - however implausible - and we've got to respond each time.

I guess I'd have to say that you will have to wait until the Finnish federation gets this treatment, and then you might appreciate why a few people feel they've been treated less than fairly by our one-time fellow travellers. When you have decided you've had enough of WSKO - or are purged - then look us up. Assuming that you're still training in Shorinji kempo and are true to the original philosophy, then you will be more than welcome (and indeed you're welcome to train with us in the meantime - we won't tell!). You certainly have an open invitation to Bristol, and we could talk about this at length over a beer.

Best regards,

Mike

PS: In spite of all this, I am happy to talk with, train with, and cooperate with any member of WSKO who genuinely believes in the philosophy of Shorinji kempo. I am less bitter than terribly sad that a once positive organisation has become some sort of money-focussed branding machine. I have little doubt that So Doshin would look at what WSKO has become today and shudder (or just be completely mystified).

Indar

14th September 2014, 08:06

The BSKF always had some strong personalities. I clashed with most, perhaps all, of them. But, (hopefully), always with respect.

The idea that people who don't even speak the same same language were manipulating those strong personalities from thousands of miles away seems strange.

I wasn't involved, but it seems that the BSKF breakup wasn't that complicated. WSKO said that Mizuno Sensei had broken the rules and suspended him. Some BSKF branch masters agreed with WSKO and some didn't. The ones that didn't decided to leave WSKO.

It appears that things got very emotional. People, (including me), are passionate about Shorinji Kempo. But the emotion in this instance doesn't seem to have any positive outcome.

I think that there is space for a constructive discussion. Some people, both outside and inside WSKO, don't like the direction that the organisation is going in - i.e. "money focused branding machine".

Are WSKO interested in making money? The facts don't seem to support this, for example the BSKF split and subsequent law case must have cost them a lot of money. When this was pointed out to Arai Sensei he apparently replied "what's right is right" (from Dave Dunns post).

I remember Arai Sensei (in 1997?) saying that The Japanese Federation paid 80% of the running costs of WSKO. I don't know the current figure, but I would expect that we (WSKO) are still being heavily subsidised.

From memory, the only income that WSKO receives from it's members is a one-off fee when you join and a percentage of each grading fee. It's been a while since I graded, but I think that I paid about £120 for the sandan grading. That is not extortionate.

Seminars such as the recent 40th anniversary celebration are, I would assume, subsidised by WSKO. The training fee was around £100 (?), again certainly not extortionate.

In terms of branding, WSKO members need an official dogi for seminars, which has to be ordered from Japan, and costs about £100 - £140 depending on the quality.

I can't see that the idea that WSKO wants to make money adds up ;), but I agree that the subject should be open for debate.

SandM

17th September 2014, 09:11

One of the interesting philosophical points that the whole affair brought into sharp relief was how different people deal with a complete absence of knowledge. WSKO originally said that Sensei Mizuno had done something terrible and was a bad man - but would not say what it was. Eventually they said what it was, but refused to provide any evidence. For a period of months, the branch masters in the BSKF were left with nothing to make their decisions on. I observed four distinctly different behaviours in this period (roughly corresponding to the four factions):

1) If bad behaviour is alleged, it must be proven by due process before it is believed ("innocent until proven guilty").
2) If the behaviour correlates with what I am pre-disposed to believe, it must be true (the Daily Mail approach).
3) If we do not know anything, we know nothing (Descartes - doubt until you can doubt no more?).
4) It doesn't matter what the truth is: what would be the most useful to believe? (Machiavelli at his most cynical)

Now you say that you have come to the conclusion that the BSKF breakup was very simple, even though you weren't involved and have no direct knowledge of it. You also have no reliable witnesses (I include myself in this, from your perspective). Your predicate - that a group of people 10,000 miles away cannot affect the result - is fallacious. Various WSKO people (including Yuuki So) flew to the UK on many occasions for a single meeting, and individuals were approached and given information or tasks to perform. There are many ways to influence events, and the addition of translation and cultural misunderstandings only makes them less likely to have the desired effect.

As I've said, you haven't seen what I've seen, so I don't expect you to draw the same conclusions as I've done.

The "right is right" comment doesn't really apply in the context I've described. The vast majority of WSKO money spent on British lawyers has been for the IP case - which is not a matter of justice, but of brand management. As such, what is "right" has nothing to do with it. The usual reason for protecting your brand is to protect your revenue stream - although I accept it could also be just pride or sentimentality in this case.

Likewise, many of the other WSKO actions would normally be interpreted as being efforts to make money. The stipulation that you must buy dogis from Japan at £100+ (instead of £25+) would normally be interpreted as an effort to get foreign money in - and yet a very substantial part of the £100+ is for postage, money transfer and the luxuries import duty (because they are bespoke embroidered goods). This last one is only sometime applied, but at 40% it hurts when it is (one of our orders was). Is WSKO ruthlessly milking money out of the Europeans? If they are, they are not doing it very efficiently, so maybe their motives are other than financial - but I was still being told at the time that I couldn't let my kenshi (including unemployed and students) train without spending an obscene amount of money on a specific dogi. If they've relaxed that to only mean training at international seminars, then that's all to the good.

In summary, I can't analyse WSKO's actions on a purely rational basis. Many of their actions clearly haven't achieved what they were (presumably) trying to achieve. Because of this, your are entirely right that their motives may be good - but their actions (as I've experienced them) have not been. I personally believe that you can't build a good result on good intentions alone - they need to be implemented through good actions.

Tripitaka of AA

17th September 2014, 15:10

I always knew I knew nothing. Now I feel more smug than ever.

SandM

17th September 2014, 15:38

I always knew I knew nothing. Now I feel more smug than ever.

If it helps you feel more smug: you are very wise indeed ;)

dirk.bruere

18th December 2014, 20:33

Well, I am UKSKF and think WSKO are incompetent, so it's not just BSKF

dirk.bruere

18th December 2014, 20:49

Who is Toshio Sato? I recall him being the right-hand kenshi at the closing ceremonies and similar events when I first started. He'd be the guy refilling the sake bottle, the "other" Japanese face alongside Mizuno Sensei. Then one day he stopped being around. I assumed he'd gone home to Japan - as so many people do when their work secondments come to an end - but was told that he'd left Shorinji Kempo after starting to teach another form of Buddhism. I wonder if you could clear that up for me. I'd hate to go on thinking something that was actually just a misunderstood comment.

Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.

David Dunn

18th December 2014, 21:24

Since my last post in this thread I asked about Toshio Sato. That's exactly why he left Dirk. He was one of the leading lights of the BSKF at the time and was busy building his own dojo. He was one of the original students at PCL when Mizuno sensei started in 1974, and one of the first shodans from sensei's stable. He left after the "punitive randori" (as sensei described it to me, punitive for not showing requisite respect) at summer camp, telling Mizuno sensei he could not support an organisation that allowed such people to be leaders. They lost contact after that. He wasn't the usual ex-pat kenshi, but started from scratch at PCL. He may well still be in London somewhere.

stevenm

19th December 2014, 18:44

Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.

How many people witnessed this. I wonder why no one i.e. other senior kenshi intervened

Tripitaka of AA

20th December 2014, 09:44

This story saddens me the more I think of it. It is a limited version in that it gives no real reason for the punishment, but the outcome seems to be the epitome of bully-culture in action. The abuse of authority, the inability to stand up to injustice when carried out by those considered "higher" and a willingness to overlook obvious wrongs... it is everything that shouldn't happen. It reminded me of that sociology experiment with the subject being encouraged to give electric shocks to another person when they answer questions incorrectly, which then increase gradually in current until they cause great pain - at which point the subject should feel compelled to stop the experiment but in the majority of cases the subject continues to administer the punishment as they have been conditioned to assume it is their "duty" to do so. It is a famous experiment that has been repeated many times, does it have a name?

JL.

20th December 2014, 11:19

It is a famous experiment that has been repeated many times, does it have a name?

Gassho!

You're thinking of the Milgram experiments, David-san.

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

Tripitaka of AA

20th December 2014, 11:30

Thank you Jan. I was just looking it up, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment). In a 1974 book, talking about the experiments he first devised in 1963;

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority

dirk.bruere

20th December 2014, 16:54

How many people witnessed this. I wonder why no one i.e. other senior kenshi intervened

How many? probably around 80 to 100.
As for why no senior kenshi intervened, the answer is simple. The most senior kenshi of all did not intervene.
My reaction then, and now, I find interesting.
Back then I was very junior. I cannot even recall whether I was shodan at the time. However, I assumed two things. First, that "this was the way it was" in Japanese martial arts. After all, we all signed the bit of paper saying that we would accept any punishment deemed fit by WSKO. Second, it involved only Japanese and I did not have any insight into the issues.

What rather shames me now is that I did not ask and did not talk to Toshio afterwards. Although I knew him, it was not a close connection. If I saw that happening now I would most definitely intervene. It is also one of the many things that has hardened my attitude culturally. I am a liberal westerner. I am English, and not Japanese, and proud of it. The indefinable English quality I most admire is "fair play", and having a senior kenshi beat a junior in a randoori demonstration where the rules say the latter must not hit back, is not on. It is petty, vindictive and above all cowardly.

There have been other instances of thing which, if I had known of them at the time, would have resulted in me leaving SK. At present though I train purely for exercise. I don't wear an official Gi and I don't/won't wear the new badge. I am happy to be out of all the shit.

Tripitaka of AA

20th December 2014, 20:38

How many? probably around 80 to 100.
As for why no senior kenshi intervened, the answer is simple. The most senior kenshi of all did not intervene.

The most senior kenshi there, was the one giving out the licks.

As an anecdote to illustrate principles of (bad) behaviour it is disturbing, but it has gaps that could make a difference. What if the "punishment" was being meted out as a fitting correction for bad behaviour by the junior student (eg. if the lower grade instructor had been seen mistreating his students and was now being "educated")? What if there is another person being "taught" (the junior instructor's own teacher is being shown that his student cannot hold his own in randori.. "You think your student is good enough, look at this")?

It all happened around thirty years ago, when Mizuno Sensei and Aosaka Sensei had been in Europe for 10-15 years each. As for Dirk's estimate of the number of witnesses, I guess that might be about right if it took place at Summer Camp (which would have been one at Canterbury 1983 or 1984), but I don't remember seeing it myself, so perhaps it was a selected group of kenshi, with the rest being otherwise engaged.

dirk.bruere

21st December 2014, 18:02

As far as I know, Toshio never mistreated anyone. As you know, senior kenshi who mistreat juniors get a reputation that spreads rather fast. I think it may have been 1982.

Tripitaka of AA

21st December 2014, 19:22

No, I was straying into the hypothetical there. I don't recall anything untoward about Toshio's behaviour at all. Which made the mysterious disappearance all the more unexpected. For me it was simply a "not around any more", having not seen the randori. Or at least, I don't think I saw it. I was new enough to not recognise much of what was happening right in front of my eyes. Toshio was still around at the Tenth anniversary Taikai in 1984, so I assume these events took place around then. Linda might remember. Of course, people like Jee Sensei and Paul White Sensei, Paul Jarman Sensei, Terry Goodman Sensei will have been aware of the consequences, if not the causes. As Dirk mentioned, the "Japanese" relationships were unfathomable to most of us. When my wife Yoriko met Mizuno Sensei for the first time she mentioned how his way of speaking to fellow Japanese was quite different from how he spoke to his English friends. Perfectly normal I suppose, but she noted that the English were given a softer image than Mizuno shared amongst his compatriots. Yoriko is a modern Japanese woman who had little time for Budo when in Japan, she had found Budoka to often be "old-fashioned" and "up-tight". While Mizuno Sensei can appear an extremely gentle and laid-back chap, his way of talking in Japanese was quite formal and less friendly. Nothing wrong or unusual about that, but it does serve to explain why and how things that took place between Japanese kenshi were sometimes unexpected and unexplained.

This drift is getting far away from the Thread title, but it does bring up some interesting questions about how to run a Federation/Association/etc. Some of these issues were tackled in the BSKF constitution I believe, although whether is is possible to limit the effect of people on the system is something that history will decide in due course. It is all about the people after all.

dirk.bruere

22nd December 2014, 07:54

sean dixie

24th December 2014, 21:17

sean dixie

24th December 2014, 21:22

I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know.....

Don't bother, I won't bite. Ask your Sensei, they'll tell you he's amazing. And did you know he killed a dog? Oh what a howa that was! We all laughed! And he's amazing at street fights. Lovely chap, salt of the earth. Proper geezer.

stevenm

30th December 2014, 09:58

I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know.

Let us know when you've been outed

Indar

25th January 2015, 08:24

It's funny really. When you speak to all the Europeans that have left WSKO, Aosaka's name always comes up ;-) His top ranking kenshi left and the Italians have some very interesting story's. Ninety percent of Swiss dojos have an interesting take as well. WSKO calls him a legend (and when I was a young, teen kenshi myself so did I.) yet, and here's the thing, no-one really likes him. Oh yes, they may admire his technique but the whispers say it all. I expect someone will try and call me out - but people know..... and say nothing. Leaders? My arse.

Since you ask so nicely.

I like him. When I received that letter from the BSKF, informing me that I was banned from taking part in Shorinji Kempo anywhere in the world I went to speak to him face to face (in Switzerland). I was aware of his fearsome rep., but whats right is right. I found him to be very supportive.

If you have an issue with someone, the first thing to try is to ask the person face to face. I could arrange an introduction if you like.

btw, I have seen your Chief Instructor get angry and hit people in the dojo on more than one occasion. Have you discussed this with him? I seem to remember a story about a plank ;)

http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-5.htm

Indar

25th January 2015, 08:37

Toshio was interested in and IIRC teaching another form of Buddhism. I believe that this clashed with WSKO policy. I do not remember whether he was forced out, but he definitely left. I also recall at one UK summer camp Sensei Aosaka picking him for randoori demonstration. Toshio was quite a small man, maybe not much over 5ft. Sensei Aosakai kicked the shit out of him. I have never seen anyone beaten in public so badly. Each time he was hit Toshio would gasso rae and carry on. he did not strike back and pulled his techniques - unlike his opponent. Afterwards he was covered in bruises. So that might have influenced his decision.

I've also seen Aosaka in action. If he really "kicked the shit" out of some-one they would be leaving in a ambulance. I agree that bullies should always be confronted though. Even in the B.S.K.F.

Indar

26th January 2015, 10:42

Thinking? Or Sleeping? Both O.K.

Indar

27th January 2015, 12:07

Gets boring when nobody wants to play with you. Guess that it's my own fault though.

SandM

29th July 2015, 12:42

I'm afraid that we never actually posted the final conclusion of the legal battle between the BSKF and SKU over the right to use the therm "Shorinji kempo" to describe the martial art we both practice - and the subject that initiated this thread.

I think that the last reported stage was that the BSKF had won at both the Intellectual Property Office and the High Court. What happened then was that SKU asked for leave to appeal to the Appeal Court, and on the 16th October of 2014, this was refused by Lady Justice Sharp in the Appeal Court. The BSKF was awarded costs of £900 from the original IPO hearing and of £400 for the High Court Appeal.

There is now no higher court left to appeal to, and this matter is resolved. In the words of Mr. Justice Warren:

"i) The words "shorinji kempo" are descriptive of an activity. They are generic and SKU cannot claim to arrogate the right to use those words to itself and its licensees.

少林寺拳法という言葉は、活動を表している。それらは一般的でありSKUはその使用の禁止を不当に要求したり、ライセンスを要求する事は出来ない。"

There's actually a few articles on the case:

http://nipclaw.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/trade-marks-british-shorinji-kempo.html
http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/not-much-unity-as-shorinji-kempo.html
http://uk.practicallaw.com/8-557-9398

This is all described in more detail on the BSKF website: http://www.bskf.org/index.php?content=news&id=184

ryama23

29th July 2015, 14:08

Anyway, this is more than 30 years old and history. A lot of what happens with regard to WSKO can be explained by assuming it is just a big corporation run as most are, by people who are promoted for reasons other than their ability to run such an organization efficiently. It's why gigantic corporations do fail, from car manufacturers to big names like Kodak.

Kodak didn't fail as much as it just died a slow painful death due to obsolescence of it's product. WSKO needs to consider this. If it's not going to embrace and espouse the Zen mind cultivation thru martial technique and it's not going to embrace realistic fight/sparring methodology in it's practice, then it's just one more McDojo competing with other McDojo's pushing simplistic martial technique with no substance or basis in reality.

You can learn faster and more efficient and practical fighting/self defense methodology from a good Muay Thai school. So the question is what should sets WSKO apart?

Kari MakiKuutti

30th July 2015, 11:37

Kongo Zen is the philosophy developed by Doshin So, based on his studies and experiences.
Shorinji Kempo is the method for practising Kongo Zen.

It is a mistake to believe that Kongo Zen has been left out of Shorinji Kempo.
The present WSKO textbook ('Shorinji Kempo Tokuhon', available in English and several European languages)
is based on Kongo Zen and contains it's basic principles.
In addition the 'Kongo Zen Tokuhon' textbook (available in English) gives more details on Kongo Zen and buddhist principles.

Doshin So's 'Kyohan' is only in Japanese (at the moment). It is available from WSKO to WSKO kenshis (2nd dan of above).

Starting about two years ago Unity and WSKO arrange special 'Unity training sessions' where the philosophy is studied
in more detail than on normal camps.
These sessions have been arranged at least in USA and Europe several times already.
For example in Sweden this year and last year.

The goal of Shorinji Kempo is not 'to quickly learn fighting'.