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AtlanticDrive
11th July 2013, 16:23
Dear forum members,

I was searching information about schools that practise karate and iaido together, or karate and kenjutsu. Separated or integrated in it's learning system. There is much information available of aikido schools or teachers that have skills in sword traditions other then in aikido, but not so much information available of karate in conjunction with iaido or kenjutsu.

I am curious if there are other practisioners on this forum who practise both, karate and iaido.

jeroen

Brian Owens
14th July 2013, 02:57
...I was searching information about schools that practise karate and iaido together, or karate and kenjutsu. Separated or integrated in it's learning system. ...I am curious if there are other practisioners on this forum who practise both, karate and iaido.

I am no longer active, but at one time I was practicing Karate-do Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido. My karate sensei also practiced Iaido, and the iai classes were held at the karate dojo, but the two were always taught as separate arts.

Geoff
16th July 2013, 16:11
I thought some branches of Wado-ryu included sword? I think concepts of swordsmanship are embedded in many karate systems especially Shotokan since Azato's Jigen-ryu impacted Funakoshi's style and Kendo ideology was embraced by the early JKA.

Andrew S
16th July 2013, 21:45
I thought some branches of Wado-ryu included sword? I think concepts of swordsmanship are embedded in many karate systems especially Shotokan since Azato's Jigen-ryu impacted Funakoshi's style and Kendo ideology was embraced by the early JKA.

I'm not sure how much the sword influenced the development of Shotokan.
Sure, both Matsumura and Azato were practitioners of Jigen-ryu (and I've even seen an article in Hiden which actaully suggests that some Shuri-te techniques may have been developed to counter sword attacks), and Funakoshi's first senior student Shimoda was a Maniwa Nen-ryu practitioner (and possibly a major influence for Shotokan's deeper stances), but actually finding sword techiques? Definitely not within modern JKA.

The Wado-ryu suggestion makes sense (Wado-ryu jujutsu)

Other places to look for a karate/sword combination might be Shindo Jinen Ryu (Konishi trained with the sword), Yoseikan (again, Mochizuki learned iai and karate in addition to judo, jujutsu and aikido), Shinkage-ryu as described by Robin L Rielly.

Just beware of all the katana-swinging kurotty masters out there!

Geoff
16th July 2013, 23:32
I agree that you won't find sword techniques in Shotokan. But I think there is a kinship.

Here's a look at Jigen-ryu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnLNExI_uK4 and if you can get past the screaming and the funny little grandma stepping what I see is total commitment to attack, attack, attack. To me, this idea and mindset directly relate to ikken hisatsu and the Shotokan ideal. We read about this a lot in the Shotokan literature, e.g. the scene in Moving Zen where the author's sempai tell him to only attack during his dan test - no retreating. I also wonder if some of the older body conditioning aspects of Shotokan that are no longer practiced much, such as Nishiyama's advice to "swing a heavy stick" in his book Karate: Art of Empty Hand Fighting, might be a hold over from some kenjutsu influence. The Jigen ryu is especially noted for the heavy bokuto it uses. Finally, the very idea of shiai karate as it developed in the 20th c. I think in some ways borrows from kendo.

This, of course, is all speculation, but the one time I was present to see a koryu practitioner demonstrate some Jigen ryu waza I was struck by how much commitment to attack he had and how similar the expression of overwhelming force was to high level Shotokan (although maybe it's just that all masters overwhelm me).

Joseph Svinth
17th July 2013, 00:52
IMO, the emphasis on attack is more early Meiji than kendo. Read up on the Imperial Japanese boxer Tsuneo "Piston" Horiguchi, and you'll see what I mean.

Liam Cognet
17th July 2013, 07:27
I practice both karate iaido and kenjutsu under one instructor.

Www.rembuden.com

We are a long way from you tho.

Geoff
17th July 2013, 10:59
I just read your article on Piston Horiguchi - interesting stuff! So, in that line of thought Shotokan might have developed its aggressive paradigm from the influence of Japanese military/sport culture rather than any ancestral link to Jigen ryu? That seems very plausible. I wonder why some arts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (like Shotokan and boxing) would embrace that idea while others (like judo) maintained more of a balanced approach between attack and defense?

I have no significant experience with Shito-ryu, but it seems like a study of that style might clarify some things. I.e., Shito ryu was developed at roughly the same time as Shotokan (just a few years later in mainland Japan), but its lineage teachers and early practitioners don't seem to have been as invested in the sword as the Shotokan guys (no Azato and fewer Japanese kendoka). If Shito ryu shows the same bias toward attack as Shotokan and Horiguchi's boxing it would seem that the sport hypothesis might be sound; if not, if Shito ryu is more balanced toward attack and defense, it might suggest that the legacy of the sword has something to do with Shotokan's methodology.

This is an interesting discussion - thanks!

Joseph Svinth
17th July 2013, 15:41
Also consider the age of the practitioners. JKA was being taught in university clubs whereas judo and kendo were taught in junior high schools. Also, karate was picked up by the Army during the war as a training method for Special Attack groups (i.e., commandos).

Robert Cheshire
20th August 2013, 17:08
Yoseikan (again, Mochizuki learned iai and karate in addition to judo, jujutsu and aikido)

In Master Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan there is a Kata (Ken Tai Itchi) that shows the progression from Ken to Ken, Ken to Tai and Tai to Tai. In both Master Minoru and his son Master Hiroo Mochizuki's Yoseikan programs sword, as well as other weapons, play a major role and included are disarming techniques.

gendzwil
20th August 2013, 22:48
Fumio Demura is shito-ryu karate and some form of iaido (MSR?). I'm not sure the styles are melded though.

Guy Buyens
24th August 2013, 22:51
I think we have to be careful not to mix historical influences in Okinawa with those in mainland Japan.

Indeed, the Satsuma Samurai who had occupied Okinawa from 1609 practised Jigen Ryu (kenjutsu style) which can be traced to Marume's Taisha Shin Kage Ryu. Although inhabitants of Okinawa were not allowed to use swords, influences of Jigen-ryu might be observed throughout the development of Karate. Especially on those inhabitants from Shuri who practised Shuri-te but who were exposed to life around the castle, located in Shuri.

Probably one of the few Okinawa inhabitants, master in Tode, to have been allowed to become skilled in Jigen-ryu kenjutsu in those days, was Matsumura (1797-1899), a scholar and skilled calligrapher whose literary knowledge enabled him to become an official in the Ryukyu government. Matsumura’s link with the great palace of Shuri is well known and it is said that he served as bodyguard to three Okinawan kings (Shoko, Shoiku and Shotai). This appointment allowed him to make several trips to both China (where he studied Chinese chuan fa) and Satsuma in Japan. Anko Itosu (1831-1951) who is often mentioned as the father of modern karate was the Shuri-te master who studied under Sokon Matsumura.

Much less known to the general public is Motobu Udun Ti , the martial art from the Motobu family (an aristocratic family in the Ryukyu Kingdom). The progenitor was Motobu Oji Chohei (also known as Sho Koshin, 1655-1687), sixth son of Sho Shitsu (1629-1668), the tenth monarch of the Second Sho Dynasty (1469-1879). The secrets of the art were received only by the heirs of the Motobu family. The first exception was Uehara Seikichi, student of Motobu Choyu. However in 2003 Uehara sensei, at the age of 99, transferred the title of soke again to a member of the Motobu family, , now the 14th generation headmaster and son of the legendary Okinawa Karate Master Motobu Choki (Motobu Kempo). The art of the Motobu family was once referred to as ushu-ganashi-mē no bugei, or "his majesty's martial art” but would later be known as Motobu udon Ti. The "Udun" portion of the name Udun Ti means "having the status of royal family. Therefore Motobu Udun means "the royal family Motobu." The "Ti" portion of the name means "hand" and by extension "bujutsu", or "martial arts." This is the same as in the word "karate," which, since the early Showa period, has been written in japanese using charaters that mean "empty" and "hand", was originally written with a different character for "kara" meaning "Chinese", to express the fact that karate was a bujutsu originating in China. In addition to the “hard” techniques of strikes and kicks,

Motobu udun Ti has a system of joint locks and throws. It also makes use of weaponslike bo (staff), jo, uēku (modified oar), and paired tanbo (short bo), nuchiku (nunchaku), tonfa, sai, and kama (sickle). In addition, Motobu udun Ti uses bladed weapons that lower-ranking members of the military class did not possess, such as the sword, spear, and naginata. In fact, after Ryukyu fell to the Satsuma forces in the invasion of 1609, only certain families like the Motobu were allowed to possess bladed weapons.

Although Karate originated from Okinawa (based on Chinese arts, influenced by local techniques), most influential teachers of the island would migrate to mainland Japan where Karate continued to develop Into its existing form. Funakoshi (shotokan) was indeed the first to introduce karate in Japan. Later, others like. Kenwa Mabuni (shito ryu) , Chojun Miyagi (goju ryu) and Motobu Choki (motobu ryu) would follow.

In mainland Japan, it is not hard to imagine that students could be interested in both kendo (or iaido) and karate.

In fact this is what happened to me as well, originally a karateka who went to Japan to train with Mabuni sensei, I got interested in a traditional Japanese koryu and hence Japanese swordmanship.

Although many important teachers moved to mainland Japan, the development of Karate in Okinawa also continued. Nevertheless karateka who go to Okinawa to study karate will more likely be exposed to Okinawa Kobujutsu, the ancient (it appeared in history approximately 700 years ago) martial art of the Ryukyu Islands that consists of Bo, Sai, Tonfa, Nunchaku, Kama, Tekko, Tinbe and Surujin.

Cady Goldfield
25th August 2013, 03:15
Anko Itosu (1831-1951) who is often mentioned as the father of modern karate was the Shuri-te master who studied under Sokon Matsumura.

He lived to be 120? Wow! That must have been quite a life.

Guy Buyens
25th August 2013, 05:32
Anko Itosu (1831-1951) who is often mentioned as the father of modern karate was the Shuri-te master who studied under Sokon Matsumura.

He lived to be 120? Wow! That must have been quite a life.

Obviously a typo, 1951 should be 1915

Cady Goldfield
25th August 2013, 13:41
Obviously a typo, 1951 should be 1915

I wasn't being facetious, just fact-checking as that was not necessarily obvious. Since 122 is the oldest human age recorded thus far, and Japan has been known for long lifespan, it could have happened. ;)

Guy Buyens
26th August 2013, 09:49
Dear forum members,

I was searching information about schools that practise karate and iaido together, or karate and kenjutsu. Separated or integrated in it's learning system.

I am not sure what you mean by school. Speaking Dutch myself, I know that school is also used to refer to what we call dojo (the place where we train) in contrast to school as a system (ryu).
Nevertheless the relationship between karate and iaido or kenjutsu fascinates me.

First there is the historical context that I mentioned before and which is different in Okinawa and Japan. In Okinawa, these days little reference to the sword can be observed (with the exception of Motobu Udun Ti, and with the shift in soke, this art moved also to mainland Japan). In Japan a number of very influential teachers were also trained in kendo or iaido. It was not uncommon to see demonstrations of sai or tonfa against sword by people like Sakagami or Hayashi). They might have incorporated some influences of sword tactics directly in their art but not much.

Second there is the individual search by Western karateka who through karate, hence exposure, get interested in other Japanese arts. I must admit that I belong to that category and I discovered traditional Japanese schools some 30 years ago when still very active in Karate and decided some years later to study them when I was in Japan (initially to train Shito-ryu with Mabuni sensei).
Several karateka moved on and started to become more and more interested in the Japanese sword. Also in the US, for instance Shimabukuro sensei (whom I met because of a mutual interest in Ono Ha Itto Ryu) and Demuro Sensei (although when he visited Belgium he told me he had a background in kendo and his teacher was Sakagami).
One of my first sword teachers (I trained Toyama-ryu in that time), Kurishima Sensei, was besides a great Iaido teacher also menkyo kaiden in Hontai Yoshin Ryu and had a history in itosu-ryu (he was ranked 5th dan).

My good friend Wout Verschueren was also a karateka but he got completely fascinated by Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu.

One of the great things about training with weapons is a better understanding of ma-ai. Both the weapons in Hontai Yoshin Ryu as the kumidachi of Ono ha Itto Ryu are continually challenging my perception of distance and are training them in a different way than karate did (and no need to say that in order to be successful in karate kumite these concepts are also extremely important).

At least for me the transition to these koryu is a rich experience. I don’t argue that a thorough study of ryukyu kobudo is not an interesting complement to Karate (my good friend and old time karate buddy Alain Berckmans found interesting challenges through his teacher Nakamoto). My journey didn’t bring me there since I was taken away by my passion for Japanese koryu before I physically discovered Okinawa (that I visited only once).

What about iai-do, I still do it but my passion is with kumidachi.

Guy Buyens
26th August 2013, 10:37
The Wado-ryu suggestion makes sense (Wado-ryu jujutsu)


Wado-ryu might indeed be considered a hybrid style of jujutsu and karate (I hope this doesn’t offend the people from that school because I have a great respect for several wado-ryu karatekas).

Otsuka before studying Shotokan did Shindo Yoshin-ryu and Yoshin-ryu (nothing in common with Hontai Yoshin ryu except the reference to a willow as symbol of pliability).
Whether Otsuka himself relied much on kenjutsu, I don’t know. Nevertheless Shindo Yoshin ryu is a classical sogo bujutsu (comprehensive martial art) influenced by Jikishinkage ryu and Hokushin Itto ryu (kenjutsu.schools)

Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is under the direction of Tobin Threadgill, who is much more qualified than me to comment on this.

Walker
26th August 2013, 18:06
Guy is correct. I have never studied Wado ryu, but I do have contact with some practitioners who are a part of TSYR. It is my understanding based on that interaction that Wado represents Okinawan forms as performed by person with a jujutsu trained body so to speak. Another way of putting it would be karate with a jujutsu engine.

As far as swordsmanship goes I don't think I am going out on a limb in saying that the sword is usually the most difficult aspect for Wado practitioners who have joined our school. There is no real sword tradition that is transmitted within Wado ryu.

Guy Buyens
27th August 2013, 08:56
In Master Minoru Mochizuki's Yoseikan there is a Kata (Ken Tai Itchi) that shows the progression from Ken to Ken, Ken to Tai and Tai to Tai. In both Master Minoru and his son Master Hiroo Mochizuki's Yoseikan programs sword, as well as other weapons, play a major role and included are disarming techniques.

The Yoseikan of Minoru Mochiuki is another story.
Minoru Mochiuki was a high ranked judo and aikido expert who also trained in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. Later he would also train in karate. So in his case it was the other way around: he got interested in karate after being trained in “mainland Japan” budo. He created Yoseikan (in 1931) as a comprehensive method but I am not sure if there are still people around who continue this style the way it was created.
Yoseikan Budo (created in 1975) is the art of Hiroo Mochizuki, the son of Minoru Mochiuki. Like his father he trained in different arts (kendo, aikido, judo). His training in karate was substantial, first shotokan, later Wado-ryu. He would go to France and introduce Wado-ryu there.

I only met him once during a training session in France but despite my young age, I was very impressed. At one time he was technical advisor for the French aikido federation, judo federation and karate federation.
Although Hiroo Mochizuki inherited the art of his father (in 2000), his Yoseikan is marked by his personal influence, hence karate experience.

Robert Cheshire
28th August 2013, 16:29
The Yoseikan of Minoru Mochiuki is another story.
Minoru Mochiuki was a high ranked judo and aikido expert who also trained in Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. Later he would also train in karate. So in his case it was the other way around: he got interested in karate after being trained in “mainland Japan” budo. He created Yoseikan (in 1931) as a comprehensive method but I am not sure if there are still people around who continue this style the way it was created.

You're right that there aren't vary many people that continue to train as Master Minoru created his style. I can tell you that the United States Yoseikan Budo Association (USYBA) does include elements of Master Hiroo's Yoseikan Budo however has it's core rooted in the teachings of Master Minoru. Although I can't speak for him - it is my understanding that Patrick Auge in California and Canada continues to teach as he learned from Master Minoru as a Uchi Deshi at the Yoseikan Hombu.

AtlanticDrive
3rd September 2013, 22:16
Wow great to read all these posts! And Guy Buyens i ment with school the method or tradition and not dojo in particular just like the replies make clear. We have like free sparring, jiyu kumitachi in our iai. Now i tried karate sparring in our school and must admit maai feels very different. Must get used to the fact i miss my sword and therefore my timing and tactics need to be adapted.

Meik Skoss
4th September 2013, 16:06
Anent the Shinkage-ryu mentioned in connection with Robin Reilly, a Shotokan practitioner here in New Jersey: I believe he mentioned that he studied Shinkage-ryu jujutsu, not kenjutsu. There is no record of him ever being a member of any Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu dojo that I know about. It is possible, but I rather doubt it, given what he has written. I used his first book in my MS thesis for what he had to say about kata.

Andrew S
4th September 2013, 21:20
Anent the Shinkage-ryu mentioned in connection with Robin Reilly, a Shotokan practitioner here in New Jersey: I believe he mentioned that he studied Shinkage-ryu jujutsu, not kenjutsu. There is no record of him ever being a member of any Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu dojo that I know about. It is possible, but I rather doubt it, given what he has written. I used his first book in my MS thesis for what he had to say about kata.

Sorry, I should have made it clear that the Shinkage-ryu (神陰流) in question was a jujutsu (or jujutsu-based) style. What is relevant about Robin Reilly's Shinkage-ryu to this thread is that in his book on the subject, he talks about how to use a sword. I was not implying an iai or kenjutsu background, just pointing the original poster to a system that might be relevent to his question.

As for iai as being part of the methodology, that might be down to styles or orgainisations where the head instructors have ranks in iaido as well as karate - ex-JKA instructor Abe, and Shindo-ryu head Ushiro are two that spring to mind.