Hosokawake Dento Niten Ichi Ryu?

[melh]

Happy New Year everyone!

With all of my free time over the winter vacation, I finally got around to organizing my photos and videos from embu and taikai that I've watched over the past 2 years. I've got a question.

At the Shimogamo Jinja embu in Kyoto during Golden Week, I watched a Niten Ichi Ryu group perform both years that I went. The program I have lists them as 細川家伝統兵法二天一流 (Hosokawa-ke Dento Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu). That name surprised me. I did a quick google search, but there was nothing in English and my kanji skills aren't really up for more than a superficial search in Japanese. They seem to have come up on this forum once a decade ago, but there wasn't much discussion in that thread. Did anyone else see those embu or otherwise know anything about them? I'd assume they're a group that splintered off at some point, but I was surprised that they'd be at a big koryu gathering like Shimogamo.

Just curious, but its been bugging me! :)

Thanks,

Mel Hayashi

[Carina Reinhardt]

Is this the video of what you saw?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm7ZX8tsE_c

Very interesting, thanks:)

[Ookami7]

That's because you need check location of origin! The old province name was Higo ie modern day Kumamoto on Kyushu! Hosokawa
was the ruling family for that area! So group is saying that this line/ art was associated with this family, clan, and area persay!

[melh]

Hi Carina,

Yeah, that looks like them. Actually, it has to be. Video says May 4, 2012 so I was definitely there somewhere watching this.

Mel Hayashi

[melh]

Hi Jeff,

Yeah, the Hosokawa name seems to get attached to a lot of things here in Kyushu since they're tied to Kokura up north and Kumamoto to the south. Actually that's why the name surprised me. Musashi was employed by Hosokawa Tadatoshi late in life, at least until the latters death. Does this imply that the style (or a version of it) was passed down through the Hosokawa family line too?

Mel Hayashi

[Ookami7]

To be honest I can not tell you, it is not my ryuha. Again could be show connection, could show that it was passed down through clan and associated members! Best source is to ask a member w/ in the ryuha!!!

[Kirigakure]

Hi,

From what I remember, the Hosokawa branch was formed after splitting from the main line 3 generations ago or so, and is run by Miyata (Kazuhiro) sensei.
I had the chance of meeting him several years ago during an enbu in Kumamoto; he's a very nice gentleman and has amazing skills!
Anyone interested in Niten Ichi ryu should definitely go see him in Fukuoka.

[melh]

Interesting! Thanks Jon! They are based in Dazaifu, but seem to have a few dojos in the city. I think curiosity is going to get the better of me!

[hyaku]

To be honest I can not tell you, it is not my ryuha. Again could be show connection, could show that it was passed down through clan and associated members! Best source is to ask a member w/ in the ryuha!!!

Well you could ask the moderator.

[pgsmith]

I was hoping you'd show up and have some input into this Colin sensei. So, what does the main line say about the Hosokawa branch, if you don't mind my asking?

[hyaku]

I was hoping you'd show up and have some input into this Colin sensei. So, what does the main line say about the Hosokawa branch, if you don't mind my asking?

Lol nothing, we don't have branches. Apart from us Noda Ha has documents.

The 8th Soke was also leader of a ju jitsu Ryu (Sekiguchi). With the 11th Soke taking over this link was cut. One of the Imai Sokes students (Kiyonaga Fumiya) went off to go it alone but actually died before Imai Some leaving his people leaderless. Hence the reestablished connection seeking recognition. Nippon Budo Kyokai only recognize us. But that doesn't mean to say someone else cannot make claims and practice.

Quite funny as Kiyonaga once called me. Asked me to meet him on a motorway service car park. Wanted me to desert Soke and join him!

Good luck to them.

[pgsmith]

I remember Aoki Kikuo soke from my years with Sekiguchi ryu. He left several different people practicing both HNIR and Sekiguchi ryu iaijutsu in various places.

[Josh Reyer]

Nippon Budo Kyokai only recognize us.
I'm a little confused by what you mean by this. May I ask for clarification?

The Nippon Kobudo Kyokai lists both Iwami's line and the Noda-ha line as members.
As demonstrated by the Shimogamo Jinja embu, the Hosokawa-ke group is a member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai.

It is my understanding that neither the Kyokai nor the Shinkokai "recognize" mainlines as such.

[hyaku]

It is my understanding that The Shinkokai is the older formation of Kyokai. They dont meet yearly any more.

Kyokai has a rule of only one group of a particular Ryu. With us its always been a question of who needs who. The 10th Soke's opinion was, Its our Ryu, any hassle and we leave you as we don't really need you.

I hate to get involved in the politics. God knows there are so few that practice anyway. It all goes against Musashi's Mu and philosophy. If we don't try to upholld that I see little point in practicing. The Ryu not only offers practice but a mindset t go with it within the founders writing.

[Josh Reyer]

It is my understanding that The Shinkokai is the older formation of Kyokai. They dont meet yearly any more.
Okay, what do you mean by this? Because the Shinkokai, as the Shinkokai, holds embu every year at Meiji Jingu, Asakusa, Shimogamo Jinja, and Atsuta Jinja.


Kyokai has a rule of only one group of a particular Ryu.
And my question is, if this is true, why are Noda-ha Niten Ichiryu also members of the Kyokai? Which for that matter includes 3 groups of Yagyu Shingan Ryu, and two groups of Tenjin Shinyo Jujutsu.


With us its always been a question of who needs who. The 10th Soke's opinion was, Its our Ryu, any hassle and we leave you as we don't really need you.
Well, yes. I doubt there are any member ryu of either the Kyokai or the Shinkokai who feel any differently.

[hyaku]

Josh do you have some sort of vested interest in the Ryu?

I'm not commenting any more on the so called validity of groups. I already perhaps commented too much. Whatever these people want to do or call themselves and seek validity by joining some association its fine by me.

One thing for sure is a 'Ha' or 'Ke' (family) is sanctioned by a particular Soke. One doesn't just go off and do ones 'own thing'. I was offered such an opportunity to form my own house when Soke passed on but declined. As time progresses these groups no longer resemble the original. Musashi did suggest 'Without adaptation'. If we are not going to follow that I see little point in practicing. I only have to watch people for a few minutes doing HNIR to see where they are coming from.

It seems to me that the the whole thing is falling apart as Soke's pass on. I will leave the thread open and my comments as testimony to having been stupid enough to get involved in such a thread.

[Josh Reyer]

Josh do you have some sort of vested interest in the Ryu?
No, to be perfectly frank I don't care at all about your ryu. I have an interest in the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai and Shinkokai, and the statements made about them in this particular thread. It's not about the validity of different groups -- my whole point is that the Kyokai and Shinkokai don't wade in those waters.

You say, "The Kyokai only recognize us." My question is, what do you mean by this, given that the Kyokai is not in the business of "recognition", and in any case a glance at their website shows that this statement is not, on the face of it, true?

You reply that, "The Kyokai has a rule of only one group of a particular ryu." Okay, again, a glance at their website shows this to be, on the face of it, not true. They have two Yagyu Shingan Ryu groups, two Hyoho Niten Ichiryu groups, two Tenshin Shinyo ryu groups, two Araki-ryu groups, and that's just going by the names. There is one group called Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but also two other groups that do Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, and these groups make mention of that fact in their ryu-writeups. Again, this has nothing to do with which group is "valid" or "legitimate" or "the true heir", or any of that crap, nor does it have to do with Hyoho Niten Ichiryu in specific. I'm asking for clarification on the statement of "only one group of a particular ryu", because it seems shaky, and at the least requires clarification.

Then you say, "[The Shinkokai] don't meet yearly any more," which really needs clarification, if not out and out revision, because the Shinkokai meet every year for multiple embu, including the Shimogamo Jinja embu which set off this entire thread.

So, to reiterate, it's probably not possible for me to care less about inter- or intra-ryu politics, or the so-called validity of any group. Hell, in all honesty, if someone said, "Where should I go for the mainline of HNIR?" I would undoubtedly point them to Mr. Iwami's group. My questions and concerns in this thread are purely about the Kyokai and Shinkokai as organizations, your comments thereof in this thread, and any misconceptions that may arise from them.

[hyaku]

Well you should know HNIR has no interest or does not take part in Embu except Hiroshima and Nippon Budokan except for the fact that is its now held at different venues.

No interest in Politics either.

As you well know any group who can show historical validity, documentation and practice recognized as authentic may be considered as a member. What is questioned is a splinter group trying to join.

I doubt very much if you would be happy if I referred to a Soke as Mr. Yagyu.

Have some respect for your elders! This is Budo.

My homepage is old. I should take it down. Things change........

[Josh Reyer]

As you well know any group who can show historical validity, documentation and practice recognized as authentic may be considered as a member. What is questioned is a splinter group trying to join.
A sincere thank you for this clarification.


I doubt very much if you would be happy if I referred to a Soke as Mr. Yagyu.

Have some respect for your elders! This is Budo.
I would be very happy if, in an English-language context, you referred to Yagyu Koichi as Mr. Yagyu. In fact, I would prefer it. Please do. That is the appropriate way to show respect in that language. If in a Japanese-language context you said 柳生先生, I would take it as polite formality, given that he is not your 師匠. But, given that, I would absolutely not have any problem if you referred to him as 柳生氏, since that is also a polite and respectful term of address when talking about someone, not to someone.

Whatever particular cross-linguistic idiom you prefer for showing respect, please do not impose it on others. Some of us are quite happy and able to demonstrate respect in English when speaking in English, and in Japanese when speaking in Japanese, and have no need to mix or match the two.

[Kim Taylor]

Don't be doing that Colin, I'm not done with it.

Kim.