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Scanderson
27th March 2001, 02:24
Dear learned participants:

First, let me thank you all for your great contributions in helping to root out frauds. I was wondering if any of you could shed light on the following:

http://www.budoshin.com/

I want to be careful here, and not be a "Cotton Mather", but I am leary of this organization - to many things raise flags, based on what I have learned here and from other sites and research. One of its branches is teaching at the YMCA in my county (which is usually a good sign) but I have doubts based on what I read at the yudanshakai site listed above. Any comments on this organization (well thought- no baseless slams, please) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance - I have loved reading the posts of this forum.

Regards.

Stephen C. Anderson

Brian Griffin
27th March 2001, 03:50
I've always found George to be honorable, sincere, and surprisingly modest. He's candid about his own background, and about what he does and does not know. There's never been anything "cult-like" about him or his people. I've sat in on some of their rank exams, and found them to be thorough, and strict without being abusive. I've never heard any accusation of their ranks being sold.

George is involved in two organizations:

AJA -- (American Jujitsu Ass'n) is an umbrella org. composed of members and clubs from several different jujutsu styles.

Budoshin Yudanshakai -- "Budoshin" is the name George has given to the style he practices & teaches. This is an org. of people who've achieved black belt in this style.

Where, exactly, did you see signs of fraud?

MarkF
27th March 2001, 13:30
Red flags went up when I saw his site, as well. I had heard of Kirby, but that was around 1970. I also knew one of his teachers Jack (Zanzo Zeki) Haywood, a hapa who taught what he called jiu-jitsu and was really exactly that--Kodokan Jiu jitsu. He simply taught the waza in a different order, and excluding some things, such as ukemi waza, and very little of the class was devoted to nagewaza, although he taught this in a non-traditional manner, always as kata. There was no randori at that school. George Kirby also is a teacher at my former high school, and I've been communicating with him occasionally.

I wouldn't go so far as to call what he does fraud, but grading of kyudan in his fifties, is well, quite liberal. There are also some questionable international members of the AJA, one in Serbia, who wrote me some rather racially tinged and harried email.

Red flag # one. He does do video "teaching" and "testing." No matter how it is explained, there are always going to be questions. Red Flag #two. He promotes by video, except until sankyu, he accepts whatever kyu grade you claim, one reason being that no one is going to ask for proof until sankyu (I found that a strange answer but it is probably true, with the exception of my sensei, who checked my background at that grade).

He does have an overwhelming number of black belt students. His Teacher, Jack Zeki also had an inordinate number of black belt, well, *thugs* is probably the better term for it, but that is just my opinion. Jack (Zeki) Haywood held sandan in kodokan judo and was a member of the Nanka Yudanshakai of So. California, but claimed godan, within the first week I was at that dojo. When that year was up, and I left, Zeki had self-promoted himself to hachidan, the grade with which he passed away in 1998 from the effects of heavy smoking. On the AJA site, it says Jack had actually been kyudan hanshi, or shihan, I'm not sure at the moment (he did, toward the end of his life attain yondan in Kodokan judo.

These were my "flags" and you can do what you like, but if you do write to him, be prepared to be put on his mailing lists and to get sales pitches for videos and books from time to time. As to his talent, I have no idea, but to his claims, I think you have every right to question it, in email.

Mark

MarkF
27th March 2001, 13:45
BTW: I just read the version of Zeki's career, and he did claim to have studied directly under Prof. Kano of the Kodokan. Even if he did study at the Kodokan, he would have been awfully young to have studied "directly under" Kano, as by that time, Kano spent most of his time out of the country, and was rarely doing anything but demonstrations, give talks, etc., as there were too many schools of Kodokan Judo by that time. Kano had pretty much quit the physical aspect of judo and retired from that in his late twenties, although he would give demonstrations of some of his inventions such as the ju no kata.

Kano claimed no grade in judo.

Scanderson
27th March 2001, 14:12
For me, and based on what I have learned at this forum and elsewhere, it is the video examinations that give rise for concern on my part. MarkF seems to concur and also has included further observations to reinforce my concerns.

However, these are just impressions and observations and should be considered as such.

Brian Griffin
27th March 2001, 17:34
It would appear that Mr. Feigenbaum's concerns are primarily centered on the late Jack Seki. Those concerns are based on his experiences w/ Mr. Seki some decades ago.
While Seki was one of George's teachers, he had nothing to do with the AJA or Budoshin groups under discussion. It's unfair to tar them with the same brush.

We all know people we believe to be over-ranked. To my knowledge, however, George has never promoted himself, or purchased a rank. His grades have been awarded by the AJA board that handles all such promotions in their organization. You are free to disagree with their standards, but it's not fraudulent.

That just leaves the video testing business, which seems to be a very recent innovation. It remains to be seen if the experiment will be successful. They are not the first to try it, and the concept is not fraudulent per se. It's true that some groups have used it as a thinly-disguised method of selling ranks in the past. Based on my experiences with the AJA/Budoshin/Kirby, I would be very surprised if they did something that unethical.

Does anyone have any actual knowledge of the standards and procedures used in their video testing? How many ranks have been awarded this way, and at what level?

I suspect you'll find most ranks are awarded in the traditional manner, and that video tests have been relatively low ranks, awarded to geographically-isolated students.

By all means contact them, and ask the questions. Then you'll know.

Kokorou
10th November 2003, 20:06
Right on...

I've been studying Budoshin for a while (since I was eight-ish). I will tell you that Professor Kirby is the most up-front, personable and candid instructor I have ever met. I just finished a seminar with him this past weekend.

Unlike some instructors I have heard of, Professor Kirby isn't out for the money; he's in it for the love of the art.

There are no pretenses, and I really like that about Budoshin.

< / end-soap-box >

:)

- Alainna

larsen_huw
11th November 2003, 09:46
Originally posted by Kokorou
Right on...

I've been studying Budoshin for a while (since I was eight-ish). I will tell you that Professor Kirby is the most up-front, personable and candid instructor I have ever met. I just finished a seminar with him this past weekend.

Unlike some instructors I have heard of, Professor Kirby isn't out for the money; he's in it for the love of the art.

There are no pretenses, and I really like that about Budoshin.

< / end-soap-box >

:)

- Alainna

That's all well and good.

But you've still got to sign all your posts with your full name.

Just like the rules of this forum tell you to.

pgsmith
11th November 2003, 14:25
From a brief look through their web site (which was extremely hard on the eyes by the way!) I couldn't see any sign of fraud. While I have no idea what their technique is like, and some may not approve of their methods, they don't seem to be advertising themselves as anything other than what they are. That seems to me to be the sign of fraud. If they were promoting themselves as the recipients of some ancient Japanese secret ryu, then it would qualify as fraud. They seem fairly up-front about where their techniques came from, and what they are or are not.

People can agree or disagree on their methods, and debate whether they are effective or not. Effectivity has nothing to do with fraud though. I've seen legitimately ranked instructors that couldn't teach their students how to properly turn around. That didn't make them frauds either, just ineffective. I'm not saying that this particular group is ineffective. I don't know anyone that studies with them so I've no idea. Don't really care either. I'm just saying that since they don't claim to be something they're not, I don't see how anyone could call them fraudulent. They do need to make their web site easier on the eyes though!

My two cents, for the very little they are worth.

Cheers,

Kokorou
11th November 2003, 17:43
Originally posted by larsen_huw

But you've still got to sign all your posts with your full name.

Just like the rules of this forum tell you to.

I'm sorry if I'm a little apprehensive about putting my full name out into a public forum. But for your 24/7 entertainment, here it is.


- Alainna Wonders

Kokorou
11th November 2003, 17:45
I actually can't believe you posted to a string just to say that.

- Alainna Wonders

SLeclair
11th November 2003, 18:17
Believe it. The rules say to post your full name with every message. The rules are enforced. If you keep doing it, moderators will delete your messages.

If you don't sign your full name, expect someone to step up and tell you or to receive a warning from a moderator. That's just the way things are around here. Keeps it (hopefully) more honest.

----
Sebastien Leclair

rinpoche
11th November 2003, 20:35
I just want to say that from my limited experience George Kirby is an extremely upfront and honest individual.

I know of a jujutsuka who wanted his rank recognized by Mr. Kirby's organization (not to buy a rank - merely to get recognized) and the organization wanted copies of certificates and references and a list of the requirements for teh jujutsuka to get to that grade.

It seemed to me to be about as thorough as one could get just to get listed in an organization.

I don't know how the video testing thing goes. I do own a couple of Mr. Kirby's videos (I am a MA video junkie). While they aren't spectacular they do seem to represent a genuine core jujutsu curriculum. Assuming that someone would have to demonstrate some proficiency in the waza on the tapes to get ranked, I guess they would have to have some skill in jujutsu.

I don't sense any kind of fraud whatsoever from Mr. Kirby. I don't know anything about his teacher or students. His teacher could have been a cannibal for all that matters - it should not reflect on his character.

MarkF
12th November 2003, 10:09
Why did he need or want his rank (grade) recognized in the first place? Weren't his own teachers good enough? If he had the certificates and recommendations from others, isn't that sufficient?


I actually can't believe you posted to a string just to say that.

- Alainna Wonders

Yes, I know what you mean Alainna. Stupid to post just to tell someone to sign their full, true name, isn't it? If you wanted to participate in something like, say, a dojo, a first name is good enough, right?

You evidently didn't read what you agreed to when you signed on. Please do so, then go to the bottom of any page on E-budo, and you will find four simple rules here. The first one is:

Please sign with your full name.

It is simple, really. A full name is your first name and your last name, or a first initial and your last name. There are ways to do this automatically, but I think you can find your way around.

There will be no further warning. If you fail to sign, expect your posts to be edited, deleted with a warning, deleted without one, or your membership terminated.


Mark

MarkF
12th November 2003, 10:23
Say, isn't that George Parulski in that picture?

http://budoshin.com/images/MaynardParulski_3.jpg


Mark

larsen_huw
12th November 2003, 10:41
Originally posted by Kokorou
I actually can't believe you posted to a string just to say that.

- Alainna Wonders

ditto! :D

opps ... chalk up yet another unnecessary post! :)

Kokorou
12th November 2003, 17:17
Originally posted by MarkF
Say, isn't that George Parulski in that picture?

http://budoshin.com/images/MaynardParulski_3.jpg


Mark

Take a good look at the date on that picture (the date is posted on budoshin.com). It was taken at the AJA Northeastern Regional Shiai back in '98. From what I can see, most of your posts regarding Parulski-Shihan postdate that picture.

Professor Kirby makes a point of coming to the Shiai once every couple of years. Parulski-Shihan does in fact come to the Shiai to give a seminar (I think this year it was actually on Jujutsu- I have it on tape) and to sell Kobushi Multimedia products. As far as I can remember of the last two tournaments, he has not had any students competing. Since I'm not anywhere NEAR the upper-echelon (actually not even the lower-echelon) of association heirarchy I don't know the relationship between Parulski-Shihan and the AJA. Hence, all the rambling that occurs after this line is of my own beliefs and not related to the AJA in any way, shape or form (Just to make that clear).

This is about George Kirby being a good guy. I don't know anything about Parulski-Shihan, so don't make this into some kind of anti-Parulski thing. I don't know him, I don't care what you all think of him, I'm not here for a flame war. I'm simply using your given implication to state my opinion of the implication that Kirby is "Bad Budo".

Seeing what you all think of Parulski-Shihan admittedly shakes my beliefs a bit; unfortunately I don't think anything I say here given my rocky start with your moderators will be taken with anything but a grain of salt.

But what the hell, I'll say it anyway.
I don't know much about Parulski-Shihan. I met him a few times, and he is nice enough. I know one of his students, but he doesn't talk much about him. I don't know anything about Seibukan or his credentials. What I WILL tell you is that how you are implying that the image of Parulski-Shihan portrayed on this site and George Kirby being similar, there is no comparison. It's as simple as you telling me to sign my name (see? now I'm overtly uncomfortable); there is no 'image' relationship between the image Parulski is given in this forum and who Kirby is. I don't defend people. If there's one thing I've learned about the martial arts, it's that there isn't a whole lot to trust. Everyone has their own opinions and beliefs, teachers, styles...and there's really not so much backing any of it up- at least not from where a humble shodan sits. I've read so much contradictory information it makes my head spin. Kirby has been up-front and very honest about his credentials . If I had a question, there's not a doubt in my mind he would answer it. He runs his association the best way he knows how. He doesn't falsely certify people. And you know what? He treats people like people. Go figure.

I understand that people in power spots such as heads of organizations can and will have their name dragged through the mud; but this one individual truly doesn't deserve such treatment. I'm sure others would say the same about others that you may not approve of; but where I stand is where I stand. I'm twenty years old, I don't know it all (nor do I profess to). I'm a female that has spent over 50% of my life training. I'm jaded, cynical, apprehensive and untrusting. I try to not let emotion cloud logic, so something like this coming from me doesn't happen often.

Again, this is my personal opinion of George Kirby and you can take it or leave it as you will. I just want to state my point of view on the issue at hand.

Well, now that THAT is all said and done... I'm going to go take some advil and tea. :)

:wave:
- A. Wonders

PS - I apologize about the name thing to MarkF (moderator) and whomever else said something. Yesterday wasn't so great of a day for me (Lovely lovely network problems)

rinpoche
12th November 2003, 18:35
Why did he need or want his rank (grade) recognized in the first place? Weren't his own teachers good enough? If he had the certificates and recommendations from others, isn't that sufficient?

Ok - maybe I stated that wrong. He wanted to join the organization as an instructor, because I think they have a group rate on insurance or something - I'm not 100% positive. As part of that process you have to prove your rank.

All I was trying to say about Mr. Kirby is that he is not handing out or selling black belts as far as I can tell. I have never seen or heard of him doing anything fraudulent.

I won't debate the efficacy of his video ranking, I don't know anything about it.

Kokorou
12th November 2003, 19:22
rinpoche,

Ketsugo... isn't that Harold Brosius' baby?

I saw him at an Arlington seminar a few months ago with Gene Roos.

larsen_huw
13th November 2003, 09:04
Originally posted by Kokorou

PS - I apologize about the name thing to MarkF (moderator) and whomever else said something. Yesterday wasn't so great of a day for me (Lovely lovely network problems)

Don't worry about it ... you'd be amazed how many newbies fail to read the rules in their haste to get their first post up.

The first reminder is usually a friendly, informal one ... then you'll get a final warning from the Moderators .... then you get messages deleted and yourself banned.

As long as it's a genuine mistake, and it gets corrected after it's pointed out to you, people don't mind.

Welcome to E-Budo. :wave:

JAMJTX
21st November 2003, 14:05
I would not call what Mr. Kirby does bad budo.
It may not be the best, but it's not like he's a fraud or a phony like so many we read about.
Mr. Kirby seems like a decent guy. He earned his living as a school teacher, not by selling rank certificates. He seems sincere in what he does and there is no question about his training.

I bought his video set a few years ago. They are a good reference for someone with training. But you can not learn Jujitsu from this or any video set. My only real problem with Mr. Kirby is video testing. It just does not seem plausible.
But I believe anyone who trains with him personally can probably get better training than at most schools in the U.S.

I do think his 10th dan ranking is suspect. I don't know where he got that from.

CEB
24th November 2003, 14:48
ALL rank is honorary.

Steve Williams
24th November 2003, 18:58
Originally posted by Daniel_LaRusso
Whoa!!!!!! I think you are the LAST guy that should question ranking and legitimacy man...

THAT is the pot calling the kettle black!!!

Hey Jim..... you have your very own stalker ;) :D

JAMJTX
24th November 2003, 21:26
Notice he is afraid to use his real name. And here is what he is talking about.
My name is on a web site listed as a member of an organization that I am not a member of. I went to a seminar and worked out at a school with people I did not check out very well. I listed my style and rank and went about training for a while. Now some people think I am a member of and got my rank from that group. Big deal.
At least I am not afraid to put my name on my posts.

CEB
24th November 2003, 22:04
I read your profile this morning and it said you worked in the Bonsai Shop. Now it don't, darn. I'm just curious how Mr. Miyagi been doing lately. Maybe you better e-mail that Birth certificate info to Steve. :)

Steve Williams
25th November 2003, 18:43
"Daniel"...... if you have nothing of importance to add to the conversation or to this thread then don't bother posting here.

By the way, does anyone know where the ip: 12.4.---.--- is from??

George Kohler
25th November 2003, 19:25
Originally posted by Steve Williams
By the way, does anyone know where the ip: 12.4.---.--- is from??

It is definitely not from Los Angeles, CA. It is somewhere in, or near, New Jersey.

Jock Armstrong
27th November 2003, 05:05
I'm still dying to see the birth cert- I bet it has "Troof" written on it in crayon...........

JAMJTX
29th November 2003, 01:50
I received some private emails from this "karate kid" who assures everyone that this is his real name.
I thought by engaging him in some dialog I could gain some clues as to who he really is. He again assured me that was his real name and mentioned a certain style of Jujitsu that he trains in in LA. I contacted that dojo through thier web site, even thoug Danny boy told me they don't have one. What a surpised! They told me there is no Daniel Larusso there.

It is one thing to come to a forum like this and post opinions. I am not even opposed to questions of credentials or credability, mine or anyone else's. But there are rules on the board and 1 rule is to sign your real name. Daniel has violated that rule.

In this thread I said some nice things about Mr. Kirby. He deserves to have some good things said about him. But I questioned some of his teaching and testing methods and perhaps cast a doubt on his true ranking. Atleast I had the nerve to use my real name. Daniel the stalker chose to atatck me over my statements and then said he knows who I am and am less than a white belt myslef.

How much credebility does a person have who shoots his mouth off in total anonimity and does not have the decency, courtesy or even the guts to identify himself have? I say ZERO and suggest that his ill-informed, anonymous posts be removed from e-budo. Here and every where.

John Lindsey
29th November 2003, 02:27
Jim,

I did some checking on my own, and he is history now.

MarkF
29th November 2003, 03:58
Now that Daniel-san is gone, perhaps I can answer a query, or a statement from Jim about Mr. Kirby.

I basically agree with what you say about Kirby. Nice guys are not a dime a dozen and there should be more of them in budo. The funny thing concerning video teaching/testing is that I asked him how he could possibly get anything on such a device about someone you don't know, et. It then became the issue that they had to attend his seminars to be graded, etc. More ways of earning pocket money. There is nothing wrong with seminar teaching, that is no way to judge a person's abilities, either. Not enough time to do it.

Anyway, we basically ended it there, with George saying "I know I'll never convince you about the use of video as a tool..." I simply answered back that video can be used as a tool, but in some ways they can be deceiving, and this included thinking you can teach someone a physical contact type of fighting by watching the camera's version of it..." And it pretty much ended amicably. He did write me some months after that, again answering my email about my comments on another message board. He had chastised me about making such comments "in a chat room." He is teaching at my old high school, though it was a long time ago, he's OK, however...


I do think his 10th dan ranking is suspect. I don't know where he got that from.


His ranking comes from the American Ju Jitsu Association. When he received, at the very least, his 9-dan and 10-dan from it, he just happened to be the chairman of the Board of Directors of AJA. It is, or was, stated on either the http://budoshin.com or the AJA site (you can access it through Budoshin) that he was graded by them (himself included?)

That is how he came into possession of it.

His day job may be as a high school teacher, but as you bought his tapes which is fine, imagine how much the vulnerable youngster will spend in the budoshin store.

This is a case of a ficticous MA being sold on the Internet to make a profit, while the Instuctor, teacher, hanshi, shihan, soke is a nice guy. I never disagreed that he is a nice guy, the whole thing is just questionable. I was with his teacher for a short time, and things were similar, except for this: It cost five dollars US every three months to train there. While Jack Seki called it ju jitsu, it was just rearranged Kodokan Judo he taught, but then even Jack said he learned at the Kodokan.

George learned from Jack, so just what kind of ju jutsu does he teach, and just what is Budoshin?

But I agree with everything said about him, and it isn't just me. I'd not make a value judgement on a person based soley my impression.

Oh, and if he called it judo, I would have absolutely no problem with that. I've been involved with judo for forty years.;)


Mark

someguy
30th November 2003, 00:50
I have noticed some of the others posting a misspelling of the wrod Ju jutsu. When you are talking about the Kodokan Jujutsu it should be spelled "Jujutsu" spelling it this way "Jiu Jitsu" means that it is of a Brazilian origin. but that doesn't mean it's wrong just that if you are talking about Japanese Jujutsu it should be spelled with two U's only and if you mean Brazilian then it's Two I's and One U.


respectfully

James Fitzgerald

Brian Griffin
30th November 2003, 02:03
Originally posted by someguy
I have noticed some of the others posting a misspelling of the wrod Ju jutsu. When you are talking about the Kodokan Jujutsu it should be spelled "Jujutsu" spelling it this way "Jiu Jitsu" means that it is of a Brazilian origin. but that doesn't mean it's wrong just that if you are talking about Japanese Jujutsu it should be spelled with two U's only and if you mean Brazilian then it's Two I's and One U.


respectfully

James Fitzgerald
Sorry, but that's not the way it works.

The word in question has been transliterated into Roman letters several different ways over the last century-and-a-half. As a result, English dictionaries (and Portuguese ones) have adopted several different spellings over the years. I prefer and use "jujutsu" because I think it represents the pronunciation most accurately, and it adheres to a widely-accepted romanization standard.

That doesn't mean the other spellings are necessarily wrong, nor does any particular spelling apply exclusively to any one branch of the art, Brazilian or otherwise.

Certain organizations have chosen to use a particular spelling for a variety of reasons. In many cases it reflects the spelling that was in use when their organization was created.

For example, AJA & the Budoshin organization use the spelling "Ju-Jitsu" while the AJJF uses "Jujitsu" (as does the Daito-Ryu Kodokai organization, Jujitsu America, and many others). The spelling "Jiu-Jitsu" has also been used by groups with no connection to BJJ. Prof. Bill Beach's "Hawaiian Jiu-Jitsu System" comes to mind. Do a little searching and you can find :

Jiujitsu
Jiu Jitsu
Jiu jitsu
JuJitsu
Jyujyutsu
Juujutsu
Dzyuudzyutu

...and probably others.

I would be cautious about correcting other people's spelling in this regard.

CEB
30th November 2003, 23:22
Originally posted by MarkF
.... I was with his teacher for a short time, and things were similar, except for this: ...

Mark

Did they randori?

Just curious.

JAMJTX
1st December 2003, 02:20
Mr. Kirby had said that Jack Seki "took Karate, Aikido and Judo and reworked them back into Jujutsu". That is almost an exact quote.
It is innacurate, but I was wondering what Seki Sensei considered this to be.
My take was that he picked up a hodgepodge of martial arts training and never gave it much consideration. What did he call his style at the time he was teaching? Did he call it Jujutsu? Did he hold any rank and did he give any? If he held any rank - in what style and what was his rank?

rupert
1st December 2003, 11:18
Most Western Jujutsu started like that.

Rupert Atkinson

MarkF
1st December 2003, 13:27
Did they randori?


No, not really. There wasn't much room there to do much of anything, and talking or asking questions without being recognized were frowned upon. He did like to show off, and he didn't like my hani-goshi, nor much of anyone's technique (apparently). He did like his own judo, though, and after demonstrating a nage waza, he would run his hands down his body, uttering softly "Ahhhh, sandan; Judo." It was geared toward self-defense, is the best way to describe what he did, but I did not see or "feel" any aikido except possibly, as anyone who plays judo "feels" aiki.

I suppose you could call the atemi he taught "karate" but it surely wasn't employed or taught as a force against force strike, he taught it as it is taught in a judo dojo, as a form of kuzushi, mostly. As I had to work out mostly with kids due to my lack of height, I didn't get all that much that I hadn't learned at the same age, so it was problematic.

Off the mat, Seki was a nice man, he said he was the US Ju jitsu champion for fifteen years, and that he was at the Kodokan for a time.

The problem back then was a lack of organization, or at least there seemed to be a very shaky and small organization. Also, Seki wasn't his true name, it was Jack Haywood, as he was hapa, his father being an American serviceman. He seemed to take on Zanzo Zeki more and more, and ultimately, became known as Jack Seki.
*****

As to the spelling of jujutsu, Brian is correct to an extent, just as he says "jujutsu" matches the pronunciation more correctly than other spellings, but the pronunciation "jitsu" has another meaning entirely, so it is probably not the best way to write/pronounce the term. On the other hand, others who had been around a lot longer than I have, do use different spellings and pronunciations of the term.

But I play Jyudo and wouldn't know anything about that.;)
******


Mr. Kirby had said that Jack Seki "took Karate, Aikido and Judo and reworked them back into Jujutsu". That is almost an exact quote.
It is innacurate, but I was wondering what Seki Sensei considered this to be.
My take was that he picked up a hodgepodge of martial arts training and never gave it much consideration. What did he call his style at the time he was teaching? Did he call it Jujutsu? Did he hold any rank and did he give any? If he held any rank - in what style and what was his rank?

That sounds like George Kirby. Zanzo "Jack Haywood" Zeki called what he did "Ju Jitsu." He claimed to be a national ju jitsu champion (15 years in succession) and the only organization I could find to which he belonged was "California Branch: Ju Jitsu Federation." He was known, however, to many in Nanka Yudanshakai of Southern California, but apparently was not well liked. When I started there, it was said he was a sandan which would match what Nanka and my (judo) teacher said his grade was in Judo of the US Judo Federation, though, in Kirby's biography of Seki it does say he retired a yondan. He then claimed he was a godan in his ju jitsu (I say his, but I cannot recall any waza he taught that wasn't what I had all ready learned or was learning, in my former judo dojo. To me, it was simply Kodokan Judo taught his way), and about a year later, hachidan. That would have been almost impossible with Nanka or the USJF, so my memory says that it was a grade his students gave him. While I've stated it was a rank he may have given himself, even Seki's immense ego wouldn't allow him to do that, so that seems to be the only logical reason for the quick grading, including skipping many grades. That wasn't unusual, and it is still done today, but not in judo, though quick movement through the ranks are possible (one year is being advertised by the Kodokan today, but not at two evenings a week)

His judo was nice, had very good form and balance. If he did indeed put in much time at the Kodokan, his judo should have been pretty nice. OTOH, he would have been very young at the time if he indeed spent much time at the Institute.

He was a heavy smoker and had to retire at a relatively young age, in 1980. He had developed emphysema and died in a nursing home in 1998.

He was employed at Hughes Aircraft in Burbank, Ca., and as far as I know, at least when I was there, he charged five dollars for a quarter year of training. I think George and I are in agreement here, as I recall a similar figure in his biography on his web site, Seki's one, outstanding and redeeming quality. He didn't even charge me for an obi.

This is where Seki and Kirby part company. Kirby may teach high school, but his organization is certainly not a non-profit.


Mark

MarkF
1st December 2003, 13:43
Did Seki give any rank? Seki gave tons of rank. His ex-students have established there own dojo all over the country, some calling it Seki-ryu (which isn't to be confused with the much older and different Seki-ryu). Some nights, a group of his black belts would come into the dojo and pretty much acted as thugs. I don't think they got the idea from Seki's teaching, only his attitude in the dojo. Even though I had about eight years of judo at the time, I wore a white belt, the one Seki gave me, in his class. His black belts didn't know that, however, so the first time I saw them, they did an "inspection of the troops." One particular person (he was at least three years younger than I) had a problem with the way I tied my obi. He turned the ends one way, I turned them back. After this show went on for a while, Jack was stifling a laugh. Finally, after I turned my obi back the way I liked it (I turned them inward, as it made a flatter knot) a third time, this person said "Are you arguing with me?" I said "oh no, I'm not arguing, I'm simply tying my belt correctly." Seki finally burst out laughing and the youngster left the room wearing embarrassment on his face along with his black belt. Curiously, they all spent, at most, five minutes there.

That was a fun night. It wasn't all bad, I just missed the judo dojo, and had all ready, by then, signed with my first teacher's teacher, Tokuo "Bob" Ota. He had two dojo, so training could be three hours a night, four nights a week.


Mark

JAMJTX
1st December 2003, 16:52
Originally posted by rupert
Most Western Jujutsu started like that.


The reason for my pointing out the statement by Mr. Kirby about how Seki formed his style of "Jujutsu" is because Aikido and Karate did not evolve from Jujutsu, as is the implication of the statement.
It is true that most western "jujutsu" is Judo combined with some other art - mostly Karatedo or Aikido. But that does not really make them Jujutsu.

Howard Thiery
6th March 2004, 20:19
Interesting thread, but I am curious about something as a new member who ALWAYS has put his full name. (great concept...wish more required this). Earlier in the thread a new member was reminded a few times to include her name, as will happen when you do not. Yet CEB has posted numerous times in this thread and has not included his/her name. I am not trying to cause trouble but rather respectfully seeking clarification as a new member who believes I should adjust to the culture of where I am. My first thought was to remind CEB about signing but when I saw the senior member status I held my tongue figuring there may be something I do not know here.

Cheers,

MarkF
7th March 2004, 13:12
Greetings, Howard.

You are correct about that, and someone should have said something. The only reason (not an excuse, just a reason) for not noticing is that he has been around a while, but still, the true (full) name rule is a concept born out of trust. People do have more faith and interest in what you write when you are willing to make yourself known. It isn't much, but it is a beginning.


Ed,

When you read this post, reconfigure your sig. editor to include your name. I'm not all that sure if you were trying to prove a point or not (that some slip through without notice while others get the e-boot), but you do need to sign your name, senior membership is about the number of posts, but if you don't know how to configure the signature feature, then pleae sign your name.

[This has been brought to you by a moderator]

Thank you, Howard. Many members say it before a moderator gets to it, but the rule is a first initial and a surname or first name and surname. If your name is also your handle, it is considered signed as well.

Some just slip by, and Mr. Boyd has been around for a while and knows the rule, but it probably wouldn't have been noticed if you hadn't brought it up.

Again, thanks.


Mark

Howard Thiery
7th March 2004, 16:29
Thanks for the clarification Mark,

I wish the other forum I participated in had similar rules I think it promotes an integroty and respect that is consistant with the forum's goals.

Cheers,
Howard

Gene Williams
7th March 2004, 17:13
That's right, Ed. Get with it. :p

Kevin Lintott
29th December 2004, 04:34
I have been studying Ju-Jitsu / JuJutsu for 15+ years in Canada. I have met most of the big names here and a few in the US. The video thing has been going on for some time I ran into a guy in Edmonton who used to be under Mr. Kirby he was doing the video program for people under him over 10 years ago. This goes on in many arts; I agree with many of you here it is not the way to learn. You need a professional instructor to assist you as much as possible in a Dojo.

I have talked to Mr. Kirby a few times on the phone over the last 5 years and many times over e-mail. He is a nice guy; he has done lots for JJ in ways of writing books and producing videos. He opened many doors for JJ.

Promotions for any 10th Dan are hard to understand unless you have been around them and there Dojos for a long time. In most modern styles of JJ to be 10th Dan you must have been active for over 50 years it is about 10 years between each of the ranks from 6 to 10 that is 40 years alone. This is ignored by many people in many arts especially once they age.

Personally I don't think we can change this in anyway. I have met some 9th and 10th Dan's that train in similar styles of JJ like MR. Kirby. One of them in New Orleans told me that his style was the hardest and deadliest style in the US and maybe the world. I have been to a few of their seminars and the style was very soft compared to the styles I have done. And I don't think the styles I have done are the hardest they are maybe middle range.

How do you clean up the arts? I have met so many people that claim they are the best and their art is the best. The 9th and 10th Dans are every where. There is fraud every where. I am a police trainer as well as I have three of my own Dojos, and I know of a few martial arts guys in Canada that are under investigation by federal law, for fraud. Also the politics in the arts are ridiculous. People attack each other and call each other liars and tell legitimate instructors that they are frauds while the frauds get away with so much. I am betting that if we got rid of all the frauds and fakes we would loose more than 50 % of the arts in the US and Canada.

My last comment is that Mr. Kirby told me on the phone that he never had a commercial Dojo and yes he taught out of the Y. He seemed surprised that I had more than one location. Most of us do teach for the love of it, we also deserve some money for teaching at least to cover the rent. I have nothing against people that do it for a living either as long as they still are not frauds. Lets face it most of us are all on the same side of the law no matter what type of arts we do or teach.

Kevin Lintott

MarkF
29th December 2004, 11:55
George is surprised you have more than one school? Why? He has a number of them across the US. He also gets change from thos students, as well.

His Budoshin "store" may not be commercial, but it is a business. You could spend thousands if you bought what he recommends in a year's time.

But I will let it go.

Perhaps Mr. Kirby would like to join the discussion? He is a member of E-budo.


Mark

Matt Thomas
26th May 2005, 04:11
I just want to add my 2cents here. I'm not saying that I know Mr Kirby well or anything, but I have worked with him twice. I attended a couple of camp budoshin events that his organization holds. I was there with my Sensei who was one of the guest instructors (different system). I just wanted to say that I have met the man and felt his technique. He was quite nice and even more than that very safety oriented. He did not seem to have an inflated ego or try to impress people by performing techniques excessively hard. Yet his skill was evident. Even at his age he performed hip throws on me and various other techniques and they felt very strong and controlled. I do not condone video training or know anything about Mr kirby's rank, but to see his name in the bad budo section doesn't seem right to me. I know that there are some bad people who practice and teach matial arts out there, but George Kirby does not seem like one of them to me.

My 2cents
Matt Thomas

MarkF
27th May 2005, 20:07
Even at his age he performed hip throws on me and various other techniques and they felt very strong and controlled. I do not condone video training or know anything about Mr kirby's rank, but to see his name in the bad budo section doesn't seem right to me. I know that there are some bad people who practice and teach matial arts out there, but George Kirby does not seem like one of them to me.


Well, sure, we had the same teacher, Jack Seki, who was a sandan in Kodokan Judo, though he claimed, well, lets see, from sandan, to go dan to hachi dan all in a year's time in what he called jujutsu instead of judo. I liked Jack off the mat and when I got the rare chance to play judo with him. But his "jujutsu" wasn't anything different from the Kodokan syllabus. There was not a single waza he taught that I hadn't learned or begun to learn in the eight or so years I had of Kodokan Judo before I hooked up with him. So,

1. I am sure George's waza were good, so were Jack's, but if it looks like a duck...

2. George is a "nice" guy, a lot of, a-bit-more-than-they-should-be people generally are. Being nice does not give him instant status nor the right to accept a 10-dan status from a BOD on which he sits as the CEO, and BTW: You think he is old? We are only a couple of years apart and he teaches at my high school Alma Mater as do a few other old high school friends.

3. Here is the main difference Jack Seki was from George Kirby: He charged five dollars a quarter (three months). He even gave away obi and other necessities. He was least into it for the money of anyone I have ever met, except for my next and last teacher, with whom I stayed almost until he died, who did not charge anything personally, except when he graded a student "The belt cost two dollars." I realize this was some time ago, so yes, he would have had to charge more today.

4. The other thing is not only the video teaching, his books, tapes and other junk he sells he does profit from, and they are not all that good, believe me. His judo is passable, but then it should be. But a 10-dan? Even the Kodokan has no 10-dan, and the IJF has one. The US has one living 9-dan and she received that when she was 90. The last man to be graded to 9-dan in the US was 92, and it was held up for a while because they were concerned that he hadn't "time-in" for 9-dan. He finally stuck around just long enough to accept it then promptly passed away. His name was Kaname "Kenneth" Kuniyuki, and was one of two still living at the time who had been graded by the founder, Jigoro Kano, to sandan. Keiko Fukuda is the last living woman to be trained by Kano, himself.

So let's see. By whom was George trained? I know what my teacher said about his teacher, Mr. [Sanzo]Jack Haywood [Seki]. "He is nothing. You sandan here, you sandan there. You no sandan here, godan there." I didn't discuss his magical ascent to hachidan. I already knew the answer.


There are some real idiots out there and I would not put him in that category at all, but he believes the video teaching only to be a "tool" of teaching. He qualifies that by stating that his long-distance students are required to go to a seminar to be graded. Well, by what standards, the videos? He put it to me correctly, though. "I will never convince you of the value of video instruction." I answered "You're right, you won't."


Mark

YoshinBudoshin
21st June 2005, 07:01
Well, sure, we had the same teacher, Jack Seki, who was a sandan in Kodokan Judo, though he claimed, well, lets see, from sandan, to go dan to hachi dan all in a year's time in what he called jujutsu instead of judo. I liked Jack off the mat and when I got the rare chance to play judo with him. But his "jujutsu" wasn't anything different from the Kodokan syllabus. There was not a single waza he taught that I hadn't learned or begun to learn in the eight or so years I had of Kodokan Judo before I hooked up with him. So,

1. I am sure George's waza were good, so were Jack's, but if it looks like a duck...

2. George is a "nice" guy, a lot of, a-bit-more-than-they-should-be people generally are. Being nice does not give him instant status nor the right to accept a 10-dan status from a BOD on which he sits as the CEO, and BTW: You think he is old? We are only a couple of years apart and he teaches at my high school Alma Mater as do a few other old high school friends.

3. Here is the main difference Jack Seki was from George Kirby: He charged five dollars a quarter (three months). He even gave away obi and other necessities. He was least into it for the money of anyone I have ever met, except for my next and last teacher, with whom I stayed almost until he died, who did not charge anything personally, except when he graded a student "The belt cost two dollars." I realize this was some time ago, so yes, he would have had to charge more today.

4. The other thing is not only the video teaching, his books, tapes and other junk he sells he does profit from, and they are not all that good, believe me. His judo is passable, but then it should be. But a 10-dan? Even the Kodokan has no 10-dan, and the IJF has one. The US has one living 9-dan and she received that when she was 90. The last man to be graded to 9-dan in the US was 92, and it was held up for a while because they were concerned that he hadn't "time-in" for 9-dan. He finally stuck around just long enough to accept it then promptly passed away. His name was Kaname "Kenneth" Kuniyuki, and was one of two still living at the time who had been graded by the founder, Jigoro Kano, to sandan. Keiko Fukuda is the last living woman to be trained by Kano, himself.

So let's see. By whom was George trained? I know what my teacher said about his teacher, Mr. [Sanzo]Jack Haywood [Seki]. "He is nothing. You sandan here, you sandan there. You no sandan here, godan there." I didn't discuss his magical ascent to hachidan. I already knew the answer.


There are some real idiots out there and I would not put him in that category at all, but he believes the video teaching only to be a "tool" of teaching. He qualifies that by stating that his long-distance students are required to go to a seminar to be graded. Well, by what standards, the videos? He put it to me correctly, though. "I will never convince you of the value of video instruction." I answered "You're right, you won't."


Mark

MarkF: Very interesting insights into both Seki and Kirby. Interesting.

YoshinBudoshin
26th June 2005, 18:30
MarkF: Does it really matter if Mr. Kirby is trying to make a profit off of a service that people are obviously willing to pay for? He seems to be a good person(I obviously don't know him as well as you)and whenever I'm back home in San Diego there is nothing truly bad said about his knowledge of what he does.

If he is claiming his art is Judo then he of course would have to follow IJF or Kodokan ranking procedure, but being as his art is called Budoshin Jujitsu and is inherently different from Judo in small aspects where is the problem with what himself and the people that trained with Seki having high rank in "Budoshin Jujitsu". Seriously, maybe I just don't understand. I await your reply.

MarkF
27th June 2005, 15:39
I have no problems concerning his business practices, that is not what bothers me about it. He does make a profit, but says he does not because it isn't a major part of his income. People must purchase membership applications and other essentials from the Budoshin store. They cannot be purchased anywhere else, such as obi of various colors for mudansha grades. Those are available elsewhere.

I do not dislike him personally.

It was not Kirby I stated who was teaching judo, it was his instructor, Jack Seki who did that. The difference from a typical Kodokan dojo was that he taught things generally reserved for the more advanced early on, and did not believe in teaching ukemi. Jack's sandan (later yondan some time before his death) was earned through proper channels, the USJF of which I am a lifetime member.

Mr. Seki was apparently not satisfied with his judo grade even though sandan was, at that time, a fairly high grade in Kodokan Judo. I still do not know from whom or by whom Mr. Seki was graded to godan and hachidan, and the closest I have come to an organization is "California Branch: Jujutsu Federation." Interestingly enough, I had actually left Seki's jujutsu dojo at a time before his 8-dan. I was helping a friend get the Encino Judo Club off the ground, and it was a fifteen or sixteen year old Neil Ohlenkamp who went there to train who told me of his sudden rise to 8-dan by Seki (Neil is the owner and webmaster of the Judo Information Site and head instructor of Encinco Judo Club, Inc., founded by Juergen Wahl in 1969 or 1970. My teacher was the sponsor of that club until Juergen was graded 3-dan).

Anyway, I hold no ill will against him, but people do ask me about him now and then, and I do give them what I know for a fact, not my opinions about what he does or how he does it. But this is E-budo so I do cross the line sometimes, something I am at times sorry I post what I do. I am not perfect, and I welcome your discussion or questions.

I agree there are definitely more locos out there who really go far beyond Mr. Kirby's practices, but as the Chief Executive of the Board of Directors of the American Jujitsu Association, I believe there is a conflict of interest in his grade to 9-dan and 10-dan. It was the BOD of the AJA that graded him while he was the chief member of the board. Personally, I really do not care whether or not he has a 20-dan, I am only pointing out possible problems. Other than being a student of Seki, I really am not all that familiar with his other studies, such as in weapons but I have read some of his books, in part or in whole. They do not, in my opinion, come close to other texts on the same subjects. Others more knowledgeable about JSA and other weapons he teaches are more able to give a more learned opinion concerning his technique in that area.

Anyway, thank you for your questions and comments. It may not deserve to be in Bad Budo, but it is here most likely due to the video instruction.


Mark

Mark Barlow
27th June 2005, 16:42
I've met Kirby a couple of times and visited his dojo in the early 90s. George is a very likable guy and a great organizer. In my opinion, those are his strengths.

Because there were so few national Jujutsu organizations in the 80s, my dojo belonged to AJA. We disassociated ourselves when the Black Belt by Mail program started.

As far as the Seki Ryu connection goes, I've trained with several of Seki Sensei's students and except for one or two notable exceptions, I must agree with Mark on their behavior. I've received letters from one Seki Ryu instructor criticizing another instructor and phone calls warning me of another sensei's shady past. If I wanted intrigue and gossip, I'd go to my family reunion.

Before anyone accuses me of prejudice, I have been awarded a black belt by one of Mr. Seki's former students. I don't teach Seki Ryu but was honored to receive the rank.

YoshinBudoshin
28th June 2005, 07:59
Mark F: That was a very sincere, honest and concise answer. You have brought up some of the same issues that a couple of my friends have harbored concerning his "video program" and the inherent issues associated with being on the BOD of the AJA.

Hopefully, I didn't come off as chastising you because I appreciate your candor and the way you approach telling your view on the situation. It's very interesting to me that there are quite a few that trained in "Seki Ryu" that say Seki/Haywoode's rank shot up quickly, basically overnight. I'm curious as to how Seki did qualify his rank. Now, I'm not accusing him of rank inflation, but the people that have addressed this have been persons with not malice towards the man, but say it actually happened. They don't attack him or badmouth him they just point out that he jumped a couple(maybe several)ranks in about a year. Again, thank you in advance for your openness.

Mark Barlow: I have to admit that it strikes me as odd that persons from different parts of the country have had similar experiences if there was no connection to this behavior. Thank you as well.

budoshin
18th November 2005, 22:43
First, I would like to thank all of you in this discussion who supported me and made positive comments about me. I truly appreciate that and will try to continue to live up to the standards you have come to know me by.

Second, for those of you who questioned things, I never fault people for asking questions or challenging things. If used positively they can be excellent channels for the acquisition of knowledge & understanding. Also, sometimes issues need to be raised, if only to raise the flag calling for clarification. Fortunately we live in a society & country in which stuff can be questioned and respect maintained in spite of differences. I was impressed with the decency and propriety by which most of the concerns were expressed.

Having read through the four pages of discussion I recognize that there are areas that need some clarification. I also recognize that my answers may not make everyone happy. However, I will address them to the best of my ability with the hope that my answers will resolve some of the issues [& hopefully not raise any new ones].

So--- here goes.

Not to deal with the smallest issue first [no pun intended], I have changed the font size on my website from 10 to 12pt font. Yes, it was getting hard to read – even for me. So no more squinting should be necessary. Also, some of the issues are already addressed on my website, www.budoshin.com .

Re Sanzo Jack Seki: Some people liked him. Some people disliked him. That can be said of anyone. He was blunt and could be very difficult with some people on the mat. I have never met a more difficult person on the mat. However, off the mat he had a heart of gold & could be very understanding, forgiving and patient. Did we have differences? YES WE DID! However, we respected each other and I think that helped us in spite of our differences. I usually knew where Seki was “at” & understood why, even though I may have disagreed with him. There were times that some of his black belts “questioned” his federation, which some recognized was possibly only 2-4 schools – not considering a Japan connection, which could neither be proved or disproved. From a personal perspective I really didn’t get involved in the “rank issue” that some people got involved in. I saw him as the teacher of an art. He had knowledge that I wanted to learn & I respected him for his level of knowledge and his patience with me over the years. Sometimes you have to look beyond what is simply on paper. The issue of his ranking, federation, etc. are essentially moot since his passing to the great tatami in the sky.

The info presented in my bio of him is based upon the most accurate info I could find from a variety of sources. I did manage to work my way back to Japan in trying to find out info about his father [which would add validity to Seki’s upbringing]. I was even in contact with the historian at the Kodenkan as well as a variety of public & governmental entities in Japan. Although most inquiries ultimately ended in dead ends, the people I contacted were also quick to state that although something couldn’t be “verified”, neither could it be effectively denied as not all interpersonal relationships between people or event were written down or records may have been “destroyed in WW II”or “lost over time.” As I’m not independently wealthy, don’t speak Japanese, and am not a world traveler, I could only go so far in backtracking Seki’s heritage. There is information in this country I’d love to get my hands on, but it isn’t available – yet. I will say that parts of Seki’s life, even in the U.S., are still a mystery.

As far as his teachings are concerned I feel that he was an exceptional and very giving sensei. Yes, there was a heavier judo emphasis than what I teach. Yes, it may have been “combat” judo to an extent. Yes, there was not a strong karate emphasis. Yes, I wish he had given us more training in groundwork [which most students didn’t like]. However, when compared to other major ryu in the U.S. Seki’s jujitsu was well-rounded. Some of his techniques were very “artsy” [for lack of a better term], but they served to teach concepts in the art even though he may not have always verbally expressed himself to that extent. However, I’ve also seen “artsy” techniques in other ju-jitsu ryu and other martial arts.

I would be the last to question the street-effectiveness of his techniques although I also realize that the effectiveness of techniques [in any art] is also strongly based upon the individual practitioner’s use of an art rather than just the art itself. The few students of mine who have had to use their ju-jitsu training “on the street” have been solidly successful – if you want to use that as the criteria for the validity of a ryu. Some times you just have to stick with something long enough to get past the elements that raise doubts. Then, if there are still doubts you have to balance them against the potential for learning and make a decision as to what path you want to take. All people [including myself], all martial artists, all sensei, all relationships and all martial arts have strengths and weaknesses, assets and liabilities. One has to balance all of these elements out in our paths of learning if we want our learning to be most effective. [Hope you don’t see this as a philosophical “copout”.]

Seki did not believe there were any ryu of jujitsu --- there was only jujitsu. Although there seem to be many “ryu” in the world, by the time a person reaches shodan, most students have a fairly common knowledge of the art once you eliminate slight differences in execution of techniques and terminology [English and Japanese or other languages]. Budoshin simply means “to conduct oneself in an honorable or knightly manner. Seki was ok with me putting Budoshin in front of jujitsu within that context as it really had nothing to do with the technical aspect of the art. That’s why it isn’t called Budoshinryu Ju-jitsu. I cannot speak to the issue of Seki-ryu jj except to say that it’s an attempt by some of Seki’s other black belts to preserve Seki’s jujitsu as it was taught to them – and there’s nothing wrong with that. Nor can I speak to the attitude/behavior of some of Seki’s blackbelts. There are occasional bad apples any any field, sport, martial art or profession. I’ve even had 1-2. It’s inevitable in spite of a sensei’s best efforts to sift out undesirables from reaching the yudansha grades.

[U]Re my rankings: From my knowledge, all ranks in jujitsu from godan and up are honorary to some extent. They are based on an assumption or validation of continuous technical and philosophical growth in the art. More importantly, such promotions are a recognition of such growth AND the giving back of such knowledge, expertise, experience, etc., to the jujitsu and martial arts community. One just can’t learn – one must also teach and give back; yin and yang.

Most high ranking jujitsuka are promoted from within their own credible organization by various governing boards or other valid means – including initial promotion by an outside group or organization. The same can be said of other arts as well. I have never solicited, asked for, paid for or done a “tit-for-tat” for any rank nor promoted myself. All of my higher promotions have come from outside the AJA, [essentially from the European Ju-jitsu Union & based upon their criteria] although all ranks were cross-certified by the AJA Black Belt Board, of which I am not a member. AJA cross-certification is a personal choice for me because I believe in the goals and purposes of the AJA.* If an organization is credible, has a valid promotional process comparable to other organization and conducts itself in a professional manner, then its promotions should not come into question. Most jujitsu organizations respect the yudansha of other organizations – recognizing that there may be differences in promotional criteria.

[* Even if I am chairman of the board of directors it does not mean that I run the organization. All the chairman does is superivise the discussion process of the BOD. The secretary administers voting by secret ballot & determines results. There are 9 members on the board, some representing multiple ryu. There are many times that BOD members are at odds with each other but we recognize that as a strength. Many [sometimes I think “most”] of my proposals get shot down but I don’t take it personally because I respect the viewpoints of the other BOD members. It’s that mutual respect within the AJA and among most of the jujitsu organizations in the U.S., that is our major strength in working with each other. There are times that I compare the process we’re going through now to revise our constitution as similar to what is going on in Iraq. Sometimes all of us feel like we’re collectively hitting our heads against the wall because of our differences but we persevere because we respect each other and believe that differences can be resolved.

Pictures with other sensei. When I go to conventions, attends seminars, travel , etc., I meet all sorts of people. Sometimes we do have philosophical differences. However, I also realize that there are “different paths up the mountain.” Pictures can say many things. Just because I have my picture taken with a person doesn’t mean I inherently support whatever they’re doing. I don’t know of anyone who has taken a picture with me who has used it to “show” that I’m in support of whatever they do or stand for.

Learning & testing by video: First, I recognize that there are some people whom I will never convince that you can learn and be tested by video. People will believe what they want to believe. All I can do is present my position & rationale. If you disagree with it, it’s your right to do so & I respect that.

The Panther videos were designed to be instructional – not just quick demos of techniques. That’s why there are shots from different angles, close-ups & slow-mos, all with explanations. However, just being able to repeat what’s on the videos does not make for a complete instructional program, nor does it mean that just because you can demonstrate all the techniques on a particular video you are automatically that rank. That’s what the Student Handbook and Blackbelt Handbooks are for. They provide a sense of direction for belt rank testing.

I have had people order the video series from me or other sources & then contact me asking me to send them their black belt certificate. They tend to get upset when I tell them there’s a process they need to go through: they actually need to learn the art & demonstrate proficiency in a freestyle situation, plus pass a written exam; short answers for lower ranks, progressing to open-ended essay responses by the time they reach shodan. As a person approaches shodan I also require letters of reference [to be sent directly to me.] Odds are I will also have a background check done on a yudansha candidate & even sometimes done on the people who write reference letters. Assuming a candidate gets past all of this stuff, including a video showing that they can do all the potentially required kata/waza well, then we can actually proceed to a mat exam [sankyu & up]

There are plenty of places on the internet and in martial arts magazines where you can send in your $$$ and get a certificate that says anything you want. You can even buy blank certificates and your black belt in many martial arts stores. If you want to go the totally inexpensive route create a certificate on your own computer & sign it yourself. If no one questions your certificate you’re set. However, I don’t operate at that level as anyone who gets a promotion from me represents the martial arts, jujitsu AND me.

Below sankyu the student can do a video going through the lower belt exams in the Student Handbook. They get an audio evaluation in return which also tells them what they need to work on or what corrections need to be made. About ¼ of the evaluation tapes at lower grades are unsatisfactory & I let the student know, as politely & positively as possible. In those cases I do tell them that they didn’t meet the criteria for the rank and why.

Although I do say that you can submit your first tape for any rank you wish, I [U]strongly recommend that a student start from the lowest rank. In this way I can usually catch problems before they get entrenched. If the problem hasn’t been resolved or substantially resolved by the next tape evaluation they don’t get the next promotion they’re going for. Also, you need to be aware that testing in jujitsu is a “process.” A student may have to do a tai otoshi for the 6th kyu exam. It will also show up on higher rank belt exams. At each level I look for specific things within the technique & exect greater proficiency as the person moves up in rank. By looking for specific things within each technique I can assure a better chance of success as the student progresses. If I can’t see what I’m looking for I’ll ask the candidate to reshoot the specific technique[s] from another angle or 2-3 different angles..

The mat exam testing process for sankyu and up is a very secure & precise process that gets me the information I need to evaluate a person for promotion. Candidates do not know specifically what they will be tested on until during the actual testing. The directions for administering the mat exam are very secure, specific & must be followed to the letter, as are what the candidate must demonstrate on video. Any deviation, however slight, even if accidental, voids the entire mat exam. That’s as much detail as I will provide.

The most serious problem occurs in this process when a person sends me a video for a sankyu or higher grade as their first tape. It is almost always rejected because there are so many errors in the execution of techniques that I usually stop after the first 2-3 techniques. It’s actually too painful to watch.

Yes, on-site instruction and testing is always best. I will not argue that. However, some students are too far from a ju-jitsu dojo or they may be accomplished martial artists who want to learn and progress in another martial art. When a student has questions there is the phone, e-mail, Kokoro, DVDs, tapes, & Cds from students asking questions and my website. Admittedly this is not as efficient as being on the mat with the student, but it does work. Testing on site is also preferable & happens on occasion. However, the testing/evaluation process seems to work fairly well & turns out practitioners comparable to students within my own dojo.

Yes, there is an “instructional package”: videos, books, etc. They’re all designed to work together. Maybe I’ve been lucky in that other people have believed in me enough to turn out products that compliment each other and help a student learn the art of jujitsu. Maybe I was also lucky to have a junior high school principal who forced me to organize what I had learned from Seki so that the district would approve an instructional program that took place within the public school curriculum, resulting in the first Student handbook. I’ve been very fortunate to be able to pull a lot of things together that other, just as competent martial artists, have been unable to do. Maybe it could be called “luck”. However, as I tell my students [in public school], luck is what happens when skill meets opportunity. That’s why you get as much education [in whatever field you plan to go into] as you can.

Making money? Yes, the Budoshin Ju-Jitsu Store is a source of revenue for me as are the book royalties & some seminars. [No, there are no video royalties or royalties from anything else.] However, it also supports my “habit” [ju-jitsu]. Could I make a living from it? Not in my wildest dreams. Most years I’m lucky if it’s a break-even situation. Fortunately I have a decent job from which I earn a decent wage that allows me to put ju-jitsu revenues back into ju-jitsu. Ju-jitsu is my avocation.

I do not make money from the AJA [I can’t as a BOD member.] No one makes money from the AJA as it’s an all-volunteer organization.

Concluding remarks [finally, hopefully, maybe?] I hope I’ve addressed the concerns and provided suitable responses. I would never assume that I’ve made everyone happy. I recognize and accept that there will be differences of opinion based upon beliefs that each of us have.

I usually don’t get involved in chat rooms as many of them really go off the deep end. I am impressed with the “professionalism” of e-Budo and the people who were involved in the discussion about Budoshin Ju-Jitsu to the extent that I believe I could respond without being obliterated with “inappropriate remarks, terminology or inane putdowns.” I guess I’ll have to check back on this site in a bit to see how this response is dealt with. However, if any of you want to get back to me directly you can e-mail me at senseigk@budoshin.com . If I missed anything please get in touch with me. I will respond.

Most respectfully,
George Kirby

Mark Barlow
18th November 2005, 23:16
George's response just reinforces the positive comments made about him. From my limited experience with him, I believe him to be upfront and honest and doing his best to support Jujutsu. There are so many more deserving cads out there, I'm always surprised to see George singled out for scrutiny. Of course, it can be taken as a compliment. If he wasn't flying high, he wouldn't be on anyone's radar.

budoshin
19th November 2005, 13:15
Mark-
Thank you for your support. I tend to agree with you with respect to scrutiny & being in the public eye.
George Kirby

(Admin Edit- added full name)

YoshinBudoshin
19th November 2005, 16:45
Budoshin: Sensei Kirby, it's me Jarvis Kolen. I'm so glad that you finally addressed this issue. I'm sure we all appreciate your candor and willingness to take the high road and explain everything the way you see it and not attack anyone that made disparaging comments. Visit with you soon.

budoshin
20th November 2005, 02:16
Jarvis,
Thank you for your support. It's just easier being up-front with people. I don't like to play games and nothing is gained by demeaning a person just because they disagree with you.

George Kirby

(Admin Edit- added full name)

taken67
22nd November 2005, 17:38
Did anyone notice, that Brian Griffin ( the dog character from family guy) was posting on the first page of this thread!?!?!?! :p

Jitsumania
5th April 2006, 21:44
There have been many points made about Prof Kirby in this forum both good and bad and some with limited information. I am going to give you a view from someone who has practiced various Martial arts throughout my life (starting age 11 and am now 48) Hold Sandan Ranks in three styles and hold yudansha ranks in 2 other and have been a distance student of professor Kirby. For years I had used Prof. Kirbys first book as a primer for Jujitsu tecniques with my students.Now we also use his follow up books , which are excellent and required reading and reference at our Dojo. I found the material to be solid and street applicable (first hand knowledge). I started corresponding with Prof Kirby in 1999. I was interested in securing rank under his system. I informed him of my history and rank(s) (yudansha grade) as a martial artist. He suggested I send him a tape performing ALL of the Brown Belt techniques prior to even being considered for ranking. I used the Videos as a resourse to either learn or refine my techniqes. Video training and referencing has been used for decades as a means to impart educational information. If you don't believe this just look in all major Martial arts magazines and see how many advertisements are present for books, tapes and DVD's. There are Videos made for a multitude of Arts. Can Prof. Kirby be that wrong in his approach when many credible masters also have videos?
Prof Kirby reviewed the video I sent, which by the way required that timing be set so when feed back was offered it could be referenced by number by both Prof. Kirby and this writer. He was Critical, honest, offered suggestions and kept the line of communication open so as to foster a functional, honest relationship. The video testing format he uses is highly credible, and exteremly stress provoking. You ask why? First of all, you don't know what will be on the test so you are required to have a strong grasp of ALL the techniques. The test comes in a multiple sealed envelope AND I MEAN MULTIPLE SEALS. This prevents cheating as the test envelope must be opened on camara. Filming cannot be interuppted or stopped during the testing or the test becomes invalid. Prof. Kirby then reviews the test after it is sent back to him with all the other testing materials. If he is dissatisfied he requests that these issues are cleared up by follow up video (cost free) untill he will issue you a Rank in the system.
I have nothing but the greatest respect for Prof. Kirby, the Budoshin system and the Budoshin Jujitsu Yudanshakai. I have been around the track for many years in the Arts to know a bogus instructor when I see one. There is nothing bogus about Prof. Kirby and the Budoshin system and am willing to go to the tatami to prove the efectiveness of the techniques! I give respect to those who deserve it and there is none more deserving than Prof Kirby. I am proud of my Sandan rank in the Budoshin system and wear my belt with pride and confidence. There is no !!!!!!ido in Budoshin!!!!!
The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Try being on the recieving end of a yubi Nage on concrete.

hyaku
6th April 2006, 03:51
Thank you Mr Kirby for your response, Thank you Mr Torres.

One tiny thing that I can't find skipping through the thread and one pertinent point is the name of the University where you received the title of Professor. My apologies if I missed this somewhere.

MarkF
6th April 2006, 04:24
Hi, Rick,


The proof of the pudding is in the taste. Try being on the recieving end of a yubi Nage on concrete.



Do you mean kubinage? Otherwise, I am not familiar with the term.

Well, there are a lot of proclaimed "masters" in the world today and one more is not going to change things or shake the world much.

His methods of teaching are familiar because he is a public high school teacher and some of that is used, no doubt, but it is not the fact that people make videos, self-promote, or anything like that, as long as he is upfront and honest about what he offers a student in video training/testing. If you feel comfortable with that then there is nothing wrong with it.

Video demonstration and how-tos were around a lot longer than tape. I have some on old 8mm film and even predates super8s. You are close to my age so you may have some of those, too.

Making and distributing videos is also fine. I do not think I said there was anything wrong with that, but no matter how much you package, maintain the integrity of a video tape teaching or testing, that is not going to teach anyone much without training with a physically present instructor. 2D video does not equal in person three dimension training nor is it possible to see, feel, breathe, center, or learn anything else you can only get with a physical entity. I think you missed my point. I did not say that video, film, books, or whatever medium cannot serve a purpose, I am saying that it is virtually (no pun intended) impossible to get anymore from watching a video or reading a book to grade or teach anyone. Tools? Certainly. Beneficial? Absolutely. Teach long distance by audio/video? Grade a person long distance? I apologize profusely for disagreeing, but no matter what, you know as well as I do that there are some things that cannot be covered by audio/video. Some are better than others at grasping things from a page from a book than others, but there is no substitute for the real thing. If someone sells the idea that one can learn as well or grade by video and it is equal to being there is plainly misdirected and/or misdirecting others.

That said, George isn't a bad guy. I have a good friend (friends, actually) who make me cringe at the salesmanship at a seminar and he knows it. If you believe you got your money's worth, more power to you, but there is no way to convince me that I can learn anything, martially speaking, from that kind of media. You may come up with ideas you work out with the person who filmed or wrote it, but by itself, it would be worthless without that. It is difficult enough to write a true, factual history of anything, let-alone teach something for future use, but anything is possible.

As I said, if you are happy, then certainly I wouldn't think of criticizing what you are doing.


Best of luck,


Mark

MarkF
6th April 2006, 04:57
Hi, Colin,

This may or may not help, but George Kirby is a teacher at my oh so very old high school Alma Mater in Van Nuys, Ca., so perhaps his academic letters are such that it is a legal use, but I am not sure. It just now came to me

Mark

PS: When I wrote the above answer to Rick Torres' comments, I hadn't noted that Mr. Kirby had replied. I recalled him signing on a couple of years ago, so I was hoping he would respond soon. Thanks, George. BTW: Yes, Brian Griffin is a fairly regular poster on e-budo, usually in the Koryu jujutsu forum and the Judo forum, pretty much everyone at one time or another. He has buried me (and dug me out) with so much pretty much from all sides and he has my respect for so many things and is a judo instructor I would have no problem in recommending a student who is in his area of California.

Jitsumania
6th April 2006, 19:54
First point for clarification: The term Kubinage is designated to identify a neck throw. The term Yubinage is designated to identify a finger throw.
On to other points:
As a practicing Licensed Profesional Counselor I have many hours of Psychology undergraduate and graduate training under the belt and have studied extensively how the brain works and how we learn developmentally. The process of learning requires different dynamics to occur for the learning to be effective and lasting. Here are a few:
1 Visual Input- one must first observe and then attempt to mimic. This is done by watching a particular behavior and then attempting to replicate it (ie. Babies watching parents and copying the behavior they see, such as smiling) The more replication is done sucessfully the greater the likelyhood of the behavior being repeated.
2. After visual input is recieved the mimiced behavior is first attempted by the utilization of gross motor movement (learning to crawl before you walk, learning to walk before you run), then fine motor movement comes into play. examples of this in martial arts can be seen through various ways but let us use a Judo example. You must first learn the concept of Tai sabaki and ukemi (gross motor movement)before judo throws should be attempted as these require a bit more refined placement of hands, fingers, feet, different methods of grabbing, pulling,etc(finer motor movement)
The video medium gives an excellent starting point for these dynamics to occur. It offers the opportunity for the student to get a grasp on the gross motor movements needed for the technique. This is subsequently followed up by more intensive review of the video to examine the finer points of the technique so that refinement can occur. Refinement also occurs by providing video feedback to the Sensei so that he may examine and scrutinize the performance level of the techniques and provide feedback for even greater refinement(which Prof. Kirby does gladly).
3. Kinesthetics are also important to learning. Many people learn by touch (ie.the blind). The feedback that partners give themselves during actual hands on training is also very important. If the technique is done incorrectly then it will be ineffective and the uke will provide feedback to that effect to the Tori, which also helps to refine what is being learned.
The concept of having a live QUALIFIED Instructor and its merits are not up for debate by me. I am a strong believer in Instructor supervised hands on training, but what if it is not available, are we relegated to not even trying if there is a resouce available.
For many years I had a deep love for Aikido but was never in a geographical area where I had access to a qualified Instructor. I taught myself various techniques via video and books. Now that I do have an Aikido Sensei that I train with regularly I see the value of all my video training. My Sensei George Garcia, Sandan(Shudokan Aikido) was impressed with the knowledge I had gained on my own and taught my students in study group. He is no slouch. He is a direct student of Kato Shihan (8th Dan) from the Hombu Dojo. Kato Shihan is a direct student of O-Sensei.
Last point regarding Professorship. This term is used in various Ryu of Jujitsu to honor the accomplishments of a Yudansha who has attained 6th or 7th degree in the study of their art. It is no different than having the title of Shihan at 5th dan or attaining the title of Master at 4th degree in the study of Tae Kwon Do. Did we get those at a University? More like the School of HARD KNOCKS.
Always remember: Wearing a Blackbelt is not the same as being a Blackbelt.
I have met many so called Black Belts and Masters along the way that the only worth of their belt is to keep the gi from opening up in public. Those are shallow victories attained by very insecure people OF WHICH GEORGE KIRBY IS NOT!!!!
Thank you all for allowing me to express my viewpoints and I am sure that there will be many who will oppose it but thank God we live in a country where this is not only allowed but at times encouraged.
I always teach my students one very important concept in their training and it is as follows:
Always remember that there is one principle that will defeat any martial artist in their quest for knowledge in or out of the Dojo, and that is:

"Contempt Prior to Investigation"

budoshin
8th April 2006, 20:52
Your inquiry as to where the title of "professor" came from is a legitimate one. Many years ago [& the issue resurfaces periodically] the AJA was being pushed by member dojo to issue titles, of renshi, hanshi, shihan, soke, etc., etc., etc. One of the things the AJA quickly discovered is that different ryu [inside & outside the AJA] have different criteria and different ranks at which they assign Japanese titles. There were overlaps for every titles.

Rather than open Pandora's box on this issue, the Board of Directors looked at what some of the other major jujitsu organizations in the U.S. were doing. They simply used the term "professor" for any person ranked 6th-7th dan or higher. The AJA went with awarding the title of "professor" at 7th dan. AJA dojo are happy with this decision. The AJA also allows individual ryu to issue whatever titles they wish. I've had enough titles awarded to me from other orgaizations to trip over & they mean different things to different groups. I just use the term "professor" because it's simpler.

No, this title of professor is not attached to a doctorate degree from any college. It isn't meant to be. However, the title does convey a high level of knowledge and contribution to the art. BTW: There are numerous diploma mills I could send my $$ to and get a PhD diploma as could anyone else, but that wouldn't help my credibility if someone were to go searching about the issuing "university."

Maybe if the AJA was a registered educational foundation rather than a registered amateur athletic organization, the issue would not arise.

P Goldsbury
9th April 2006, 02:18
This thread does not belong in Bad Budo and so is moved to the general Gendai Budo forum.

Best regards to all,

Jeff Cook
9th April 2006, 16:32
Mr. Kirby, as one of the leaders in another US jujitsu group (USJJF), I want to say that you have my admiration and support.

Jeff Cook

budoshin
9th April 2006, 20:15
Jeff-
Thank you very much. I appreciate your support.

George Kirby

George Kohler
9th April 2006, 22:51
Since I am receiving clarification PM's, I'll repond here to save me time.

I saw Mr. Kirby's posting on E-Budo. When I was young I bought his first book, so I was interested to see what he was responding about. I read through the whole thread. I didn't see anything bad or baffling about Mr. Kirby or Budoshin Jiu Jitsu, so I asked the moderators to review the thread. Mr. Goldsbury responded saying that he also was thinking the same thing. We decided to move this to the Gendai Budo forum.

BTW, welcome to E-Budo, Mr. Kirby.

Jeff Cook
9th April 2006, 22:55
George Kirby, you are welcome. George Kohler, good move.

Jeff Cook

budoshin
10th April 2006, 00:23
Mr. Kohler,
Thank you for the additional clarification. The professionalism that guides e-Budo was the reason I responded to all the concerns in the first place. My compliments for running a professional site.

Jitsumania
10th April 2006, 03:46
To Mr. Kohler and Mr. Goldsbury, I extend my sincere thanks for the desicion to move Budoshin and Prof Kirby out of the bad Budo thread. Prof Kirby has been on the forefront of being responsible for the propegation of Ju-Jitsu in the USA in the most professional and honorable way. His literature(books and articles) as well as videos have served a a very valuable resource to many credible martial arts instructors and practitioners.

MarkF
10th April 2006, 11:43
Maybe if the AJA was a registered educational foundation rather than a registered amateur athletic organization, the issue would not arise.


I doubt it could be registered as such. It is illegal in California and many other states to use educational titles and letters such as Professor, Doctor, etc., without the legitimate educational letters from a recognized educational institution for the purpose of doing business.

I earned my doctorate with time, sweat, and research and would never think of using such a title in a martial community. Some feel that since they earned it, it now is part of one's name. That's fine, but just as many are very angry at those who do use diploma Mill PhD and self-awarded professors and "dr." when they did not earn it. It is easy to do, placing such a title before one's name, or after it, but it is quite another to earn it only to have falsehoods and phony "doctors" feel they can use such titles willy nilly. It may have been easy, but it is an insult to those who worked very hard for it.

If you think "professors" of martial arts are eqivalent, you are dead wrong.

Just so you know, I disagree with my fellow moderators in that I believe "bad budo" was just where this thread belonged. As a matter of fact, I was not the person who placed it there. It was originally posted in the "Baffling Budo" forum and moved there, I believe by the owner/administrator, John Lindsey.

"Bad Budo" was created to discuss questionable made up martial arts (especially those not Japanese like Budoshin), questionable teaching methods and mainly business practices, title-wearers and the like. It is also for the criminals who take advantage of young people as one of these types is one too many. I won't move this thread out of Gendai as it is my forum, and because I basically opened the discussion of Budoshin many, many years ago, I guess it should be my responsability. I did not moderate this forum then. So be it.

Anyway, I thank Mr. Kirby and his students for coming here to discuss the original problem which was and still is video teaching. Because there is no Budoshin dojo near you does not mean you cannot do something else, and, when able, join a budoshin dojo later. People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem. With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there. I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo. As I have stated many times, as long as the instructors are honest and you are happy doing whatever it is you are doing, no one will get hurt. The problem is, many ARE not so honest and play the moves handed to them, usually titled and "graded" highly.


Best Regards,

Brian Griffin
10th April 2006, 15:43
It is illegal in California and many other states to use educational titles and letters such as Professor, Doctor, etc., without the legitimate educational letters from a recognized educational institution for the purpose of doing business.California law restricts the use of several titles to people who hold state licenses from the appropriate regulatory agency. As far as I can tell, "professor" is not one of those restricted titles. If someone knows of a statute that says otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

The only limitation on calling yourself "Doctor" would arise if you use the title to imply (falsely) that you are a licensed physician.

George Kohler
10th April 2006, 15:49
It was originally posted in the "Baffling Budo" forum and moved there, I believe by the owner/administrator, John Lindsey.

At the time of the first post of this thread, we did not have a Baffling Budo forum. All questions came through Bad Budo and it wasn't until later that we added Baffling Budo. The first time Baffling budo forum was used was July 9, 2002. So in this case the thread was made March 26, 2001 and had 6 posts from that point. The thread was dormant in the Bad Budo forum until Nov 2003.

So, as to who moved it to Bad Budo, no one did and certainly not John Lindsey. Since July 2002 no one can start threads in Bad Budo.

Jeff Cook
11th April 2006, 01:27
Mark's accusation concerning the legal use of the title "professor" is a serious one. I would like to hear and learn more about this.

Jeff Cook

Mark Barlow
11th April 2006, 01:35
"Mark's accusation concerning the legal use of the title "professor" is a serious one. I would like to hear and learn more about this.

Jeff Cook"

I don't think accusation is the right term... It seemed more of an observation to me. I'll be honest and say I'm not a big fan of that particular title but then, I not crazy about master and grand master either. :)

Jeff Cook
11th April 2006, 03:05
Mark and Mark, my apologies for using the word "accusation." Perhaps I read more into Mark F.'s post than I should have. Thanks for keeping me straight. :)

Jeff Cook

Jitsumania
11th April 2006, 06:13
Anyway, I thank Mr. Kirby and his students for coming here to discuss the original problem which was and still is video teaching. Because there is no Budoshin dojo near you does not mean you cannot do something else, and, when able, join a budoshin dojo later. People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem. With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there. I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo. As I have stated many times, as long as the instructors are honest and you are happy doing whatever it is you are doing, no one will get hurt. The problem is, many ARE not so honest and play the moves handed to them, usually titled and "graded" highly.

I have a few questions of relevance to the above stated comments:

People travel to foreign countries, as in Japan, get a job just to be close to their chosen style. If this is so important, such a move should not be such a problem.

There may exist the possibility that the financial resources to execute such a move may not be available as in the case of this writer. I am fairly well educated and hold a Masters degree and make 6 figure income. Does this mean that I uproot my family of 6 children, spouse, pets etc so that I could go and study Aikido at the Hombu Dojo with Kato Shihan because of my own desires. Or maybe I just inform them that I am leaving on a sabatical abroad for a year or so to go study Martial Arts . How many people who practice Martial Arts actually possess the resources to engage in such behavior? Some of us are busy paying the bills to support our family.


With a four year college degree just about anyone can get a job teaching English or do other work there.

Can someone clarify for me how many martial artists actually possess four year degrees vs those who don't? Having studied social sciences I would venture to make an educated guess that there is more preponderance of non 4 year degreed practitioners than those with degrees. What kind of jobs would the non degreed person be eligible for in Japan, China, etc.?


I am not suggesting that for Budoshin as modern jujutsu styles are all over the place, mostly based on Kodokan Judo.


"Bad Budo" was created to discuss questionable made up martial arts (especially those not Japanese like Budoshin),

"if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)
Based on the above quotes there appears to be flaw in the 2 conflicting statements ,because if "Budoshin as other modern Jujitsu styles" are based on Kodokan Judo, is Kodokan Judo then not a Japanese Martial art.


It may be interesting to note that the inception of Kodokan Judo developed by Professor Jigoro Kano was the brainchild of Professor Kano and the heads of various Jujitsu ryuha which Professor Kano consulted over an extended period of time. Judo techniques were modified jujitsu techniques that were made safer for generalized practice and sport. So which came first "the chicken or the egg"? Another example of this could be the development of Aikido from Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu. The founder injected his own techniques, as well as those of Daito Ryu and is spiritual beliefs to form a system practiced wordwide! Effective system, ABSOLUTELY.

It seems to me that Professor Kirby and the Budoshin system has been placed on the same plane (Bad Budo) as such charlatans as Ashida Kim and his Ninjitsu system LOL. YOU HAVE TO WORK HARD FOR ANYTHING THAT THE BUDOSHIN SYSTEM HAS TO OFFER YOU WITH REGARD TO RANK, VIA VIDEO OR NOT!!
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME ASK MY BUDOSHIN YUDANSHA WHO WERE TRAINED BY A DISTANCE METHOD TAUGHT SENSEI regarding the effectivity of his training and the effects of the techniques on their body.

BTW:It is because of the advent of audio-Video technology that we have been able to spread information to regions of the world that would not have been privi prior to the technology. We have trained people to do things they were not capable of doing prior to the days of video training.

MarkF
11th April 2006, 15:53
"if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)

You can imply, symbolically, anything you wish. You also know that I am right.

People make sacrifices and some feel their ryu (read tradition) is worth the sacrifice and that was my point.

If you really believe you can compare Mr. Kirby to Kano Jigoro, I really feel bad for the time you have wasted. I have also stated repeatedly, that Mr. Kirby and I have discussed our differences on more than one occasion by email, and we came to a friendly arrangement to simply disagree.

If that is not possible with the rest of you, go at it.

hi, Brian,

What do you think of changing it to Perfessor, then? I have no problem with that one.


Mark

Jitsumania
12th April 2006, 00:08
You can imply, symbolically, anything you wish. You also know that I am right.

If I believed that you were totally right why would I be posting an opposing viewpoint?


If you really believe you can compare Mr. Kirby to Kano Jigoro, I really feel bad for the time you have wasted.

I have read through my last post and cannot find a single instance of having compared Prof. Kirby with Prof. Jigoro Kano. These two men have varied accomplishments in their life and it would be like comparing apples to oranges. I am a devout follower of Judo and hold Yudansha rank in it's practice as well. I firmly believe that my trek in the Martial arts has never been "WASTED". I have acquired much knowledge (my quest for knowledge continues) and a vast array of acquaintences and friends, some very famous and others not so famous but still just as valued.


I have also stated repeatedly, that Mr. Kirby and I have discussed our differences on more than one occasion by email, and we came to a friendly arrangement to simply disagree

I will say this - I do not have to agree with any one persons opinion, but I will definately defend to the end the right of that person to have his opinion. That is one of the principles that this great country is founded on.
Then let it be known that I also will reserve the right to a friendly "agree to disagree!"

By the way, would "Perfessor" be a newly created word to be placed between perfervid and perfidious in the Websters Collegiate Dictionary? Anglo ebonics maybe?
May God Bless you all and keep you in his graces and blessings.

Brian Owens
12th April 2006, 06:00
..."if A implies B and B implies C then A implies C" (Symbolic logic formula)
Based on the above quotes there appears to be flaw in the 2 conflicting statements ,because if "Budoshin as other modern Jujitsu styles" are based on Kodokan Judo, is Kodokan Judo then not a Japanese Martial art....
Let's see if I understand what you're saying.

A) Some modern jujutsu styles are based on Kodokan Judo.
B) Kodokan Judo is a Japanese art.
C) Therefore the modern jujutsu styles are Japanese arts.

I'm afraid that's psuedo logic.

A) I am an American, born in the Oregon.
B) My maternal grandmother was born in Bohemia.
C) Oregon is part of Bohemia?

I don't think so.

In both examples, A --> B; but B -/-> C, therefore A -/-> C.

Jitsumania
12th April 2006, 18:10
Ouch Brian! Point taken and I stand corrected. The general gist of the message remains, that we must examine carefully what we infer when reading about, or into something.
I must say that I have really enjoyed some of the mental sparring with regard to presentation of viewpoints. What I do appreciate is that it is always done in a professional manner even though some viewpoints are expressed fairly rigorous, (mine included). I will say this, I will always respect (even if I disgree) a person who stands by their convictions and beliefs (Mark F., George Kirby, Brian, and others who have posted).
I hope that my opinions have not offended anyone and if they have I offer sincere apologies as this was not the spirit in which they were intended. This is a wonderful site and I hope to visit frequently so as to further my own quest for knowledge and foster networking with brothers and sisters in the art. I also like to do a little fair spirited mental sparring as well, when needed.
Keeps the mind sharp.
Domo Arigato and God bless you all.

MarkF
13th April 2006, 15:23
I hope that my opinions have not offended anyone and if they have I offer sincere apologies as this was not the spirit in which they were intended.

Don't worry about it. I don't have a fuse, it just explodes out of me.


Mark f.

PS: But not very often these days.

jwinch2
13th April 2006, 20:15
I earned my doctorate with time, sweat, and research and would never think of using such a title in a martial community. Some feel that since they earned it, it now is part of one's name. That's fine, but just as many are very angry at those who do use diploma Mill PhD and self-awarded professors and "dr." when they did not earn it. It is easy to do, placing such a title before one's name, or after it, but it is quite another to earn it only to have falsehoods and phony "doctors" feel they can use such titles willy nilly. It may have been easy, but it is an insult to those who worked very hard for it.

If you think "professors" of martial arts are eqivalent, you are dead wrong.



I agree 100% Mark... If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your doctorate? I am currently doing mine at LSU and going through the "time, sweat, and research" that you mentioned above.

Later,

Jason

MarkF
15th April 2006, 14:29
I went to UCLA School of Pharmacy. I also took a post doc course in pharmacology.

Really, I used to have the energy to do it.;)


Mark

jwinch2
15th April 2006, 23:28
I went to UCLA School of Pharmacy. I also took a post doc course in pharmacology.

Really, I used to have the energy to do it.;)


Mark

Cool,

Thaks Mark!

Later...

Custodian
24th June 2009, 19:41
From what I could gather from these posts, there are two types of Seki-ryu Jujutsu floating around out here in the world.

I want to know which one I am going to be involved in... I get an introduction into jujutsu class tomorrow.

http://www.gendaimartialarts.com/?page_id=42

This is one of the school's instructors.

So is this man...

http://raleighselfdefense.com/
http://www.gendaimartialarts.com/?page_id=46

Is he teaching the art he learned from this man?

http://www.visualprospects.com/sekiryu/html/sanzo_seki.html

http://www.budoshin.com/bjjfact.htm

I am just looking for some clarification if what I am going to be learning is worth it.

If not there is a traditional Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei (associated with the Genbukan) school near me as well.

http://www.nijinohashidojo.com/

I just want to know exactly what I am learning and maybe you guys can help. Thanks in advance.

budoshin
24th June 2009, 20:12
Jordan-
The best thing for you to do is to contact Skip Koepke at seki4ryu@gmail.com and ask him to verify the sensei your checking out & his rank.

Skip was a long time student of Sanzo Seki for many years, as was I.

The term "Seki-ryu" did not appear until Seki's passing to the great tatami up in the sky. Supposedly Seki gave Linda Gross and/or Skip Koepke the right to use his name in memory of what he had taught. I was not involved in the intracies of how this came about. Again, Skip or Linda could give you the details.

Seki's position on "ryu" was that there was only jujitsu - not any ryu. [Seki is essentially correct here.]

In the early 1970's Bill Fromm & I approached Seki to ask if we could put the word "budoshin" [which means to conduct oneself in an honorable and knightly manner] as so many people were asking Bill and me what "ryu" we taught. [We had a really popular program at the Burbank Y at the time.] Seki went along with it on the condition that we didn't use the word "ryu". So basically, that's where "Budoshin Ju-Jitsu" came from. Budoshin Ju-Jitsu not only contains the teachings of Seki, but also elements from Ketsugo Jujitsu as taught by Harold Brosious. It would not be appropriate to say I am teaching Seki-ryu Jujitsu for that reason.

Hope I've been helpful. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at senseigk@budoshin.com .

-George Kirby

Custodian
24th June 2009, 20:44
I believe I will have an opportunity to speak with him tomorrow.

So, you are saying this style is credible to invest and learn in? Good to know. I personally don't care what the philosophy is called at the moment, maybe that is my ignorance speaking, but I am not even a student yet, and maybe my view will change after some time.

Sometimes, I have had a hard time getting a straight answer in area of interest. There was "master" in my area, who spent 20 years in Korea in the military, who had a school of "self-defense, street-oriented eclectic taekwondo, hapkido, taekyon, and hwarangdo" as he put it.

Today, the building where the school is now for rent again. It could have been credible, but I steered far from it.

In fact, I steer clear of the words "taekwondo", had a bad experience with a K.S. Lee TKD school a long time ago. It turned me off from the martial arts for a long time.

I did a small stint with a Wing Chun school, but found it was not applicable to my profession's use-of-force laws, rules, and policies.

By the way, does traditional mean better [gi s, kata, etc]? Or is the modern approach [no gi, no kata,etc.]

budoshin
24th June 2009, 21:51
Jordan-
The validity of a ryu/style and the validity of an instructor are entirely two different things. Seki taught everything against street attacks from the first moment you got onto his mat. He also taught the "art" of techniques at the same time. It is an interesting confluence, but it does work in the long run. Whether it be Seki-ryu or Budoshin, this instructional approach is unique to both systems. Some ryu of jujitsu will not teach street self-defense until you reach shodan [1st black belt].

Whether an instructor is really qualified to teach any art is an entirely different matter. I usually tell prospective students to look at the following items before "signing their lives away":

1. Check the certificate of rank & you may want to check out the organization/sensei who gave the rank. [The internet is an amazing resource]. If there are enough certificates of different arts to create "wallpaper", I'd start asking serious questions & getting addresses for verification.

2. Is the instructional program and the testing process [belt rank requirements] available for you to see?

3. Watch the class as many times as necessary to feel comfortable with what's going on.

4. Watch how the lower ranked & higher ranked students interact with each other because that's how you'll be treated. This is the most important element to be comfortable with.

5. Don't sign any long term contract until you've been in the class 1-2 months & like what's going on. It may be a bit more expensive in the short run but could save you big bucks in the long run if the class is not what you expected.

"Traditional" jujitsu usually refers to being from Japan, along with some of the formalities, including gi, Japanese terminology, kata [repetitive practice], etc. Seki kept this to a minimum - except sometimes for kata; "Do 25 koshi nage [hip throws] kata-no-nage [go through all the movements except completing the throw] & then throw your partner once. [Seki did engage in verbal harassment on the mat though. The higher you were in rank the more he'd harass. He periodically explained the process in class thusly: "if your ticky-ticky gets upset at what people say to you, you have no business studying a martial art, especially jujitsu. Some of his upper belts left due to the harassment. The rest of us learned to let it go in one ear & out the other. I don't think any sensei could get away with that today.] I think using some of the formalities are worthwhile. However, there are sensei [in any martial art] who really go overboard on this stuff for their own personal self-aggrandizement. There is a difference between treating each other and the art with respect and doing a lot of grovelling. The key is "everything in moderation."

I'm not sure what "modern" jujitsu is. It may refer to abandonment of the formal aspects of the art mentioned above. It might be "newer" jujitsu such as Brazilian. I really can't give you a good answer.

Hope I've been helpful & didn't get sidetracked too much.

-George Kirby

Custodian
24th June 2009, 23:03
My first issue is that it had to be applicable within 6-9 months of training. My "street" is normally a prison block of maximum security inmates. I do not care at this time for competition just competence.

That's why I gravitated towards this school.

However, I am leery due to the backlash of bad RBSD schools and their "bullshido". Even now, it seems like every dude who came out of the military had some "secrets" the armed forces doesn't want anyone to know. Also, the armed forces are in cahoots with the a world grand martial arts consortium against teaching "x-y-z" technique.

However, after doing some research on the martial arts I have a new found respect them. There is much to learn and it seems many styles are lifelong styles if one wishes to make it so.

By the way, how did you gravitate towards jujutsu?

Also, have you at any time shifted to any of its derivatives for study, like kenpo/karatedo, aikijutsu, aikido, judo, bjj, or *ninjutsu* [i have been told it is nothing more than a form of jujutsu with more ninja weapons and acrobatics]? I ask because it seems a lot of jujutsu masters seemed to have spent time in the derivatives schools as well as jujutsu.

Have you studied at different schools? Have the different schools "honored" your skills and bestowed a rank of similar level?

How long have you studied?

Have you ever competed on a sport level? Why or why not?

Sorry for all the questions, I am looking for some insight.

budoshin
25th June 2009, 00:10
Jordan-
Traditional Jujitsu is NOT oriented towards competition as application of techniques is designed to control and, if necessary, injure - sometimes severely. Seki did occasionally have competition within the dojo, with some minimal rules, but injuries were rarely avoidable. I was in a couple of his tournaments but eventually my "sense of reality" prevailed & I decided placing my body at risk was not very high up on the "smartness" level. :) Keep in mind that traditional jujitsu is oriented around self-defense and disabling your attacker, not getting him to "tap out."

6-9 months for competance is pushing it -- in any martial art. However, with your background it may be doable. The trick will be getting your sensei to teach you techniques applicable to your situation. Being a member of the LAPD Civilian Martial Arts Advisory Panel following the Rodney King incident [& we redisgned their entire basic training program] plus I was involved in other aspects of POST, plus I've worked with other law-enforcement agencies, you need "compliance" [politically correct] techniques that will encourage your inmates to "comply" quickly. The LAPD training program is relatively quick because it's what could be called "situational training". Rather than being taught a whole slew of techniques, each specific to a certain type of street attack, officers were taught several basic locks & holds and how those same locks & holds could be applied to a variety of situations. It has really worked quite well. Once the new training program went into effect the use of force complaints were down, injuries to officers and suspects were down, and officers were able to control situations more quickly. What else can you ask for.

Now that we've gotten over the "politics" the real advantage of traditional jujitsu [& it takes time to learn this] is that proper use of the joint locking techniques will allow you to create a lot of pain before you actually injure a person. If you do the latter [sprain, dislocation, fracture] it will then become impossible for you to control the person because all they want to do is get away from you -- with their adrenaline going full bore. The advantage of this ability is that you never end up using even "reasonable" force to control your non-compliant person. This is because once a hold is set, any pain or discomfort is caused by the non-compliant who is not complying with your request for compliance. The greater the non-compliance the greater the pain & injury is caused by the non-compliant, not by you. :)

Yes, there are a lot of RBSD schools out there & most don't last more than 1-2 years. It takes a certain mentality for that & that's not what you're after because you can't use 90% of it in your situation. As a school teacher [39 years] I never had any qualms about putting my hands on a student or an adult, even 1-2 armed adults. I also never injured anyone in the process or got in trouble or even got "talked to". Most of the stuff I've learned in jujtisu I couldn't use as a school teacher. However, I honed those things I could use.

Although some martial arts & some martial artists claim to know certain secrets, there really aren't any. What's secret in one system may be common knowledge in another. I've seen this happen time & time again in my 42 years of teaching. No, there's lots I still need to learn [and I learned a lot in the process of writing my next book on jujitsu figure-4 locks]. But secrets are only things you don't know.

I got into jujitsu mainly as a stress reliever while study for my MA degree cumulative exams. Seki was offering 4 nights/week [each a 2 hr class] for $1.25/mo in the 1960's. It was a great way to work off stress, mentally and physically. I never planned to be a sensei. However, Seki saw things differently.

I would say that the best reason to study a traditional martial art, and jujitsu in particular, is because it has survived the ages. It may have been modified here & there to meet particular needs, but the core knowledge continues to exist. That's its strength. If you're willing to commit the years necessary to begin to understand the art [or any traditional martial art], you will be amazed at what you will know and be able to do, in the martial arts as well as other aspects of your life. Your short term goals a commendable & doable. However, if you commit yourself to long term goals you'll be amazed at how much more you'll learn. Just keep an open mind.

Some jujitsu black belts wander off into other arts. However, if their sensei has an "open door", most will eventually return, not only with a broader background, but also with a greater realization and appreciation of the value of the jujitsu they have learned.

Although most of my study was under Seki, I did spend about a year learning elements of Ketsugo Jujitsu to fill in what I thought were empty spots in Seki's training. Hal Brosious, my Ketsugo sensei, was well aware of what I was doing as I was up front with him from the outset. His Ketsugo is the least "arty" form of jujitsu I have ever seen -- but it works remarkably well.

So I've spent the last 42+ years studying jujitsu. I've had the honor to write 5 books for Ohara [new one coming out this Sept] plus the 8-DVD video, plus other goodies. However, I still think I'm learning the art. It's somewhat like the more you learn the more there is to learn. In my book if you really want to learn a martial art, or anything for that matter, you have to make a lifelong commitment with an open mind towards self-improvement.

I do have a few 5th & 6th dans in Budoshin JJ, who've been with me over 20-35 years, but I haven't given anyone a 10th dan in Budoshin JJ. I am working on establishing a successor line among my top black belts, but, at this point, it's a very difficult process because each of the 4-5 have different strengths & weaknesses and they all consider themselves my successor. I'm working on a different approach to this enigma. I think they'll all buy in to it as it will put them into decision-making positions before I kick the bucket & hopefully they'll decide as a group as to who will do what once I'm gone - before I go to the great tatami up in the sky.

I have a folder full of certficates of rank from other schools, arts, and organizations. An element that most people overlook, and I can only speak with respect to the many legitimate jujitsu organizations I'm familiar with, is that jujitsu black belt ranks from 5th dan & up are honorary, based not only on your own continued growth in the art, but also what are you giving back to the art of yourself.

Hope I've been able to give you some insight. I may have also stepped on some people's toes, but that happens & I have sore toes as well. :)

-George Kirby

budoshin
25th June 2009, 00:21
Jordan-
I didn't even mention the use of pressure points [no hitting] or balance points to unbalance or move a suspect. My book, Jujitsu Nerve Techniques has some value for nerve & pressure points. Keep in mind that some people do not respond well to nerve or pressure point attacks [non-striking]. General rule to follow is that if they don't feel pain [high on drugs?] nerve/pressure points generally won't work as well.

E.g., You might be able to put a person out with a carotid press, but they won't feel the discomfort or effects until they're actually out.

The balance point info in the back of the book would be invaluable to you though. There are simple moves to turn a person around or to get past them [to another location] without causing pain,discomfort or injury. There's a really obvious concept in this section that you could get down without too much practice [20-30 minutes]. On the other hand, you may know this stuff already.

-George Kirby

Custodian
25th June 2009, 17:03
"I do have a few 5th & 6th dans in Budoshin JJ, who've been with me over 20-35 years, but I haven't given anyone a 10th dan in Budoshin JJ. I am working on establishing a successor line among my top black belts, but, at this point, it's a very difficult process because each of the 4-5 have different strengths & weaknesses and they all consider themselves my successor. I'm working on a different approach to this enigma. I think they'll all buy in to it as it will put them into decision-making positions before I kick the bucket & hopefully they'll decide as a group as to who will do what once I'm gone - before I go to the great tatami up in the sky"

Are you saying in the end there can be only one? I couldn't resist that.

Anyways, I get my formal introduction tonight. There seems to be a lot to learn in this particular art. My background is not that spectacular. The department's partial art is laughable and I never attained any real level of proficiency with any of the other arts I studied. Maybe, hopefully, things will be different at this new school.

budoshin
25th June 2009, 17:11
Jordan-
Good question! Seriously, I hope that I have more than one successor AND that they can work well together. That's why I have almost always involoved my black belts in making policy decision. I don't plan to name a successor on my "death bed." At this point all 5-6 of my top black belts consider themelves as my successors and they're all able to work well with each other [in spite of occasional differences] and each of them has a different expertise inside and outside of jujitsu. It's actually a pretty good team & I hope it continues. There are other details that will tie them together, but that gets really boring.

Good luck at your class tonight. Keep your eyes open!!!

Yes, some department programs are deplorable & unrealistic. Others can be pretty top notch.

-George Kirby

Custodian
25th June 2009, 18:02
Like the title. I have no idea what to expect.

What is the normal "introduction" by a school instructor?

Does a normal "introduction" mean anything to a school that against standard traditions of the particular martial art style?

Is the school's master supposed to give an overview or throw the student to the mat? Personally, I don't know.

Most southern states Correctional training is pretty poor, most of the guys in my department either do nothing, "bodybuild" or do some form of other martial art training like most of the CRDT instructors.

8 hours of martial art training [4 hours unarmed + 4 hours armed with a baton] completed only ONCE (is rushed over 1 day) for the entire year is remarkably sad. How they can pass that off for training beats me, it should be illegal.

And the department wonders why excessive force situations happens.

budoshin
25th June 2009, 22:18
Jordan-
There is no "normal" introduction. I would hope that the sensei would do the following:
introduce self and extremely brief bio
briefly explain what is taught & the accompanying philosophy
explain basic courtesies & safety rules
show what will be taught towards the first belt [students demo]
demonstrate his willingness to help you get to first belt & about how long it will take.
This should take 5-10 minutes max.

Any martial arts program [traditional or modern] should have an intro so new students know what's going on & as a reminder to retruning students. An alternative is a Student Handbook which covers everything it detail. A handbook shouldn't replace a verbal intro though.

I suppose some sensei will throw new students the first night, very gently though - & some sensei will allow themseves to be "thrown" by new students. It does help build trust. Full on throws: only if you want to be sued! Remember, falling never hurts - landing does.

Yes, some Arrest & Control programs take the blink of an eye to cover & some agencies in the U.S. don't even have written "use of force" policies. It truly is scary from a trainer's point of view.

Custodian
26th June 2009, 02:50
His introduction is about 90 minutes. The school's master is remarkably knowledgeable.

Tonight, I met with Sensei/Soke Doug Cobb...
He is a Seki-Ryu Jujitsu Master, Isshinryu Karate Master, Neko-Ryu Goshin Jitsu Master, Kodokan Judo Master, etc.
He has a doctorate in Martial Arts and Philosophy from an Asian Martial Arts academy [I forgot what was the school's name]
He is also a chemist.

His school is Gendai Martial Arts teaching Gendai Goshin Jitsu, his scientific approach to the martial arts. Dare I say a martial science? Hmm... I think Rick Tew has that registered, but you have the idea.

Sensei Cobb walked me through what use to be taught with NCDOC's program [joint locks] but they have disappeared from the curriculum. He educated me on some useful tactics, how to form an effective punch, I got thrown, rolled, and submitted plenty of ways, etc.

I signed up for his law enforcement officer's normal course of study which is different from his civilian course.

I came at him like an insane inmate and was put down like a rabid dog... quickly.

Apparently, Soke Koepke is in semi-retirement but still has students looking to learn pure Seki-Ryu Jujitsu.

I officially start Monday morning...I have my work cut out for me.

There are ONLY four belts to black. White, Orange, Green, Brown... Then the black belts. However, you'll never wear it in class, the instructor doesn't believe in the traditional gi considering there is little chance you will be ever attacked while wearing a highly durable judo/karate/tae kwon do gi

BTW, He seems to who you are Prof. Kirby.

budoshin
26th June 2009, 05:43
Jordan-
Sounds like he's competent and you're happy. Good!
-George Kirby

Custodian
30th June 2009, 17:24
Gendai Goshin Jitsu (modern self-defense oriented jujitsu)

I had my first class Monday morning and I go back tonight. [class is offered 5 days out of the week]

Right out of the gate, it was tough. Tougher than any other class I've been in, which to be honest, there hasn't been many for me, but still it was hard. I'm pretty sore for a first class, still I feel good.

This school has three different curriculum: Citizen, Law Enforcement, and Instructor.

This school also has four different levels: Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, and you know what? I forgot what the fourth level is but it takes some time to get there so it doesn't matter right now anyways.

I am currently enrolled in the beginner law enforcement curriculum. Total average time to gain competency in the mere basics, graduate, and proceed to the intermediate law enforcement curriculum is 11 months, depending on how often I attend class, which the general average is twice a week, for 2 hours.

I plan to attend as often as I can and see if I can cut that down to 9 months.

Due to my work schedule, one week I can attend 4 times, the other week only once. That averages out to 10 times a month if I went every single time if my schedule permitted.

budoshin
30th June 2009, 21:04
J. Jordan-
Good for you. The key word is "patience" and the key phrase [from my sensei] is "don't try so hard".

-George

Custodian
2nd July 2009, 01:40
I heard some interesting words from Grandmaster Koepke, he came in and co-instructed a class with my school's master and he is teaching my master in further studies past his 6th dan in jiujitsu. The Grandmaster had some pointers which really helped make sense of what I needed to know.

Also, he said he was there when you got your black belt.

Talk about history, eh?

budoshin
2nd July 2009, 01:53
J. Jordan-
"Skip" & I go back to the 60's. We weren't always in agreement with each other but he does have a great technical background.
Say "hi" to him for me if/when you see him again.

George Kirby

Custodian
3rd July 2009, 02:54
About Grandmaster Koepke...

What had happened was, I asked him about acquiring a pressure point. My mistake...
In about a half second, I blinked and I hit the mat and he was abusing one of my vulnerable points...

Not an experience I am looking forward to having again... that one really hurt. However, I learned what he meant when he said you do not apply strength to much of what I was applying strength to.

Not a problem on the "hi" issue.

budoshin
3rd July 2009, 06:33
J-
If you'd like to continue correspondence plese email me at senseigk@budoshin.com as I don't think the informal conversations we're having are necessarily what e.budo has in mind.
-George Kirby