Togakure,1800,NOT 1100!

[Gareth Del Monte]

Hello.
I know that for a long time the whole question about if Dr.Masaaki Hatsumi's Togakure Ninja Scroll is real or embellished upon.
I don't know if you guys know or know of an individual called Dieter "Dean"Eichler.
He was known as SCOTTBAIOISDEAD on his Youtube account.
He had a tremendous amount of knowledge and books,scrolls etc. about Ninjutsu.
The biggest collection I have seen.
He was always adamant that Togakure was real and the scrolls were real.
He has also been having a feud with a Christa Jacobson of the Budo Ryu School.
In this response to one of Christas videos,Dean actually admits that the Togakure School does not date back to the 1100s but rather the 1800s.
So this guy who is basically the biggest supporter of the scroll has just stated this!
Is this credible and does this mean anything.
Does anybody know him or get what he is saying.
Thank you,
Gareth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHPPS9slQG4
Quite frankly I don't know if this guy is a credible source anyway!

[pgsmith]

Gareth,
You will probably have better luck asking Ninja questions on Martial Talk, as they have people involved in various groups that actually post there. The Ninja portions of e-budo have been virtually ignored since the original owner, John Lindsay, moved on into the mercenary world.

There are legitimate and hard-working groups that have involvment in the "ninja" arts, but there are far more whackos and egotistical nutjobs than there are legitimate practitioners. This is due, in large part, to how Masaaki Hatsumi chose to build the Bujinkan membership.

Here's my take on it, but it's strictly my personal opinions ... Dean Eichler is a ninja obsessed personage with no academic standing as a historian. His opinions are only opinions, and how historically accurate they may be is entirely up in the air. Christa Jacobson has solid ties to both Count Dante and Ashida Kim. That makes her quite a bit less than legitimate, as they were both seriously deluded characters from the 80's ninja boom.

[Gareth Del Monte]

Hello Sir.
Thank you for the post and the heads up.I appreciate it.
Both these characters do seem kinda dubious(and that is putting it mildly)
I think you insights are dead on.
Keep Well,
Gareth.

[Robert G]

i believe dean is still a member here you might want to contct him directly.

robert

[poryu]

HI

the main problem with Togakure Ryu is that there is no historical document or reference in existence prior to the birth of Takamatsu sensei.

According to Hatsumi sensei, Takamatsu sensei was the first person to transcribe it to paper, so that explains why there are no old makimono/densho.

Takamatsu sensei himself apparently claimed that he was only taught the Santo Tonko No Kata, and a few other bits.

We know now that some aspects have been taken directly word for word from the Ito Gengetsu book on ninjutsu.

So just how old/historical Togakure Ryu is we dont know and on top of that how much of it was added by Takamatsu himself we dont know either. I honestly dont think we will ever know.

It would be nice to find something to show that even in part that it pre-dated Takamstsu sensei